The thing is, here in Canada the info for the consumer is minimal, we have to buy our invoice pricing for new cars, and it is difficult to go in to negotiate on a used car if you don't have any reference point on used cars. That is why I asked my original question. I guess a rephrasing of the question would be, what could one reasonably expect off of posted pricing on a used vehicle?
If a car hasn't been reduced already, you can safely expect $100-$500 off. Sometimes maybe six hundred dollars will be possible too.
This applies to all the used cars and all dealers across the country, especially the one I work at
If a car has been discounted already, expect another $50 off.
Ok, I was just pulling your leg there. Look the discount really depends on how much the dealer is into the car for. If they paid too much for it on a trade either because it's a museum quality piece worth every penny, or because they needed to make a deal happen, there's not going to sell it at a certain price because black book says this or that.
The truth is every single used car is different, and prices paid for them are different, and there is no set rules as for trading in and pricing them.
But as a general rule expect anywhere from $500 to $2000 off on a used car, once again depending on the lot, and $0-$500 on deeply discounted clearance units.
I don't know why Canada would be any different than the US, but anyway, my take on used prices is that dealers generally have 50% of asking price in the car. I could be wrong on certified used as I've never tried to negotiate for one. My current commuter was a 3 year old Corolla with 25K miles four years ago, priced at 10,295. After all was done, got it for 5700 cash, thousands under Edmunds wholesale. This is about typical for my experience buying used at new car dealers. One of the most fun cars I ever drove was an '87 US-made VW Golf that I bought in 1990. Priced at 6788, I finally got it for 3750 and got them to double the warrantee. That one took all day.The car was a true creampuff with the service book stamped every interval, including a senior citizen discount stamp and although I wanted it - I was also very willing to walk. Owner of the place offered me a job on the spot selling cars for him. I refuse to finance a used car and carry a wad of cash to show I'm serious. You have to be willing to walk - I walked out twice on the Corolla. Treat the owner, manager and his salesmen like professionals with respect, the way you wish to be treated and you can negotiate. There's far more room for negotiation on used cars than new, IMO.
my take on used prices is that dealers generally have 50% of asking price in the car.
This may be true for very low priced cars, but not for anything that's more substantial in price. If we take in a car for $20k, there's no way we can sell it for $40k.
If they sold you a Corolla for half the asking price, they could have had it on the lot for a while and decided to take a loss on it.
Boomchek is correct and I should elaborate. First I only look at approx 3 year old cars because they have absorbed the most depreciation yet are often still in excellent condition. I have driven that Corolla now for an additional 66K miles and performed all the service myself, except for replacing the OEM tires. Secondly, the vehicles I look at will have one feature that makes them less desireable to our spoiled carbuyers. In this case, it was the ridiculous 3-speed automatic (yes it is awful but I knew what I was getting for the great deal - and that's why I was truly willing to walk). In the case of that VW I mentioned, it was the lack of power steering (no big deal for me). Thirdly, I buy used at new dealers that sell brands and value them more highly. So a Toyota from a Chrysler dealer, a VW from a Toyota dealer, etc. And I try to time to the last 2 or three days of the month (don't know if this is a myth or not) or when the dealership is doing no business because I don't want to waste their time when busy with my low-ball cash offers.
I have not bought at 50% since 1972, when I paid 750 for a 67 Chevy II marked 1495, so that agrees with boomchek, although back then, you could buy a new VW Bug for 2K. In today's market, 3 year old low end commuters should be easy enough to buy very cheap. The Corolla example was 55% of an asking price that was already too high.
I buy my wife new cars and usually get used for myself. The used have been just as reliable as the new. And sometimes when I've walked, I haven't gotten that call back - we only report our negotiating successes, not our failures!
That is sure true with car sales, and maybe other types of sales as well. I just have to wonder how many times you could have moved a unit at a decent price but the asking price chased a potential buyer away.
Here's an example. I'm checking out Craigslist for a basic transportation car for my son who doesn't have a lot of money. Today I spotted an older low milage Buick that looked promising. Trouble was, the asking price was twice TMV and about $500 over KBB "excellent". Seller stated he was firm on the price.
I kept looking. Now maybe there are some Jipster's or jmonroe's or even a snake out there who would take that "firm" price as a challenge and call the guy up but me, I look elsewhere.
I realize I may be the odd ball here but I do have cash.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
not a complete list by any means, but I like: 1. Complete inspection for any repaired accident damage. If I can fit, I crawl under the vehicle from one side with a flashlight and out the other (This can be entertaining to the salesman and break the ice). If ground clearance does not allow for that - squeeze as much as possible under the car to try to reach anything that may need to be reached for service - drain plugs, filters etc. I leave even the minor fender-benders for somebody else.
2. Discount Carfax reports - unless they report damage. Wife's car got T-boned once and I traded it in with full disclosure to the dealer with all receipts includede as it never appeared on Carfax.
3. service records/book.
Anything unusual - just walk. Don't fall in love with a piece of machinery.
Oldfarmer is right to pass. I won't bother with private sales because people almost always have an inflated idea of what their stuff is worth. I do sell my used vehicles, boats, etc. and have always sold to the first person because my asking price was realistic and the condition was excellent.
I prefer to buy used from new car dealers because then I'm dealing with professionals and we can negotiate without emotion. After all, you're buying a used tool.
Long ago, I worked in real estate and the key to pricing a property for sale is to undercut your competition just enough...
Today I spotted an older low mileage Buick that looked promising
Sounds like my 99 Buick Regal LS with 86k miles... not for sale mister! :P
I use to buy solely from private owners, usually friends of family members. I think dealerships are the way to go now though. They may ask double the TMV, but at least they have a realistic idea on how much the car is worth, and will negotiate accordingly.
Look the discount really depends on how much the dealer is into the car for. If they paid too much for it on a trade either because it's a museum quality piece worth every penny, or because they needed to make a deal happen, there's not going to sell it at a certain price because black book says this or that.
Just because a dealer has overpaid on the car, it doesn’t mean that the customer has to step up and save them by paying more than it is worth. That is absurd. Dealers don’t care what customers owe on their trade-ins. Why should customers care about what dealers owe on cars that they sell?
Black Books (i.e. auction values) are very relevant to the value of a car. Auctions truly determine the true wholesale market value of the car. If the car is popular, it will be bid up higher; and if it is a dog, it will sell for less.
My rule of thumb is; take the current wholesale book value of the car, add about $1500 for newer cars and $2500 for older units. That should cover transport, reconditioning and profit.
Just because a dealer has overpaid on the car, it doesn’t mean that the customer has to step up and save them by paying more than it is worth
If we paid over book for a car becaue it's truly and excellent example, then we'll wait for the right buyer to see that as well, and willing to pay that premium.
And we will hold off for the right buyer, instead of taking a loss on it. If someone doesn't see the value then they're not obligated to pay X amount, just as we're not obligated to sell it for what a "price guide" says it should be sold for.
Look the discount really depends on how much the dealer is into the car for. If they paid too much for it on a trade either because it's a museum quality piece worth every penny, or because they needed to make a deal happen, there's not going to sell it at a certain price because black book says this or that.
The highlighted clause was what I was referring to. Just because a dealer over allowed on a car to make his monthly bonus goals, that doesn’t mean that a customer should pay more for this car when they buy it used.
Another thing that fascinates me is when salespeople complain about the cost of the repairs and reconditioning. If the dealer didn’t notice those problems at trade-in time and paid too much for the car; it is dealer’s problem, not customer’s.
My rule of thumb is; take the current wholesale book value of the car, add about $1500 for newer cars and $2500 for older units. That should cover transport, reconditioning and profit.
Sounds reasonable. I think that would generally put the value of a car between Edmunds trade-in value and private party.
Ok, you're right on that count, but when it comes to taking a loss we'll instead hold out to find the right buyer to pay what we need to get on the care instead of selling it for what a "guide" says it should be sold for and takea hit on it.
Costs of repairs and reconditioning are real, and they add cost to vehicles.
When it comes down to grinding to the last dollar and everything all the costs are out in the open, then yes these things will come up.
Just because a dealer has overpaid on the car, it doesn’t mean that the customer has to step up and save them by paying more than it is worth. That is absurd. Dealers don’t care what customers owe on their trade-ins. Why should customers care about what dealers owe on cars that they sell?
I had that happen with a dealer down year ages ago. All he wanted to show me was how much he had into this car. He had receipts for all sorts of stuff he'd done. No matter what I said that's all he came back to. Since he couldn't get into where the real market was I just went elsewhere.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Exactly, salesmen are trying to convince us that the guides don’t matter and that the asking price is based on what they have put into the car, and that negotiations should be relative to their asking price.
What I am saying is that, from buyers’ point of view, the reverse is true. Guides that are based on auction values represent the true market, and buyers should negotiate relative to that value; just like they should negotiate relative to the invoice and not MSRP.
If the dealer refuses to deal with reality, then walk. Let them wait for an ignorant customer, or take the car to the wholesale auction where they’ll lose even more.
Guides are just "guides". All they do is put you in the ballpark IMO. They get you into the right "decade" of pricing. If the dealer's price is $1000 or $2000 more than the guides, he's not wrong. If he's $5000 or more over, he's just trolling for the uninformed.
Now if you were talking about the auction RESULTS, the "raw numbers" that Manheim issues on computer, that's a bit different than a "guide". A guide is like processed cheese, and the raw data has been plugged into formulas, and massaged this way and that, into compromises.
But Manheim's raw data is just a list of what people paid at dealer auctions, listed by miles, equipment, etc. And even THERE you find price variations on a list of ten Saabs auctioned one right after the other.
That’s an interesting post from an employee of a site that publishes one of these “guides”.
I know guides are not perfect and there are better resources of information out there. However, Manheim's raw data is not available to regular buyers. The Black Book Online is available with some research. http://www.cudlautosmart.com/Research/TradeInValues.aspx?WT.svl=SubMenu This “guide”, as imperfect as it is, is still better than relying on dealers’ asking prices to determine what the market value of a car really is.
If the Black Book Guide is so imperfect, why is it that every UCM that I have ever met has one in his pocket?
But regardless, as a buyer with little knowledge of the market, would you rather base your offer on a wholesale “guide” value + X, or dealer’s asking price – X?
I don't think any guide published claims "infallibility". There are just too many variables.
All new cars are the same, every used car is different.
That's the mantra a car dealer will tell you, and you know, he's right.
The dealer's "asking prices" are just him exercising his first amendment rights. He can ask whatever he wants.
It's the buyer who sets the market price, not the guides, not the dealer.
The guides' opinions and the dealer's opinions are *reflections* of what the buyer has already determined.
If the dealer can sell a car repeatedly "over book" that means the guides are not in step with a sudden feverish demand.
If the dealer's prices are too high and the cars "rot on the lot", then he goes out of business.
Last of all, different guides showing different pricing based on what they are trying to accomplish. Guide X might show private party retail averages, Guide Y might show dealer REALIZED prices, Guide Z might show dealer ASKING prices as reported. Guide W might show auction wholesale pricing.
LOL, whose side are you on? I think we are going in circles.
This thread was started by a buyer who asked a question of how much over the Black Book should I offer. A salesman’s response was, which I think was a bit self serving, don’t worry about the Black Book and just make an offer relative to the asking price because sometimes we pay more for cars than we should. I am paraphrasing here, but this is basically the topic of the thread.
I still say that that buyer will be better served if he goes with his gut and makes an offer from Black Book plus rather than the asking price minus.
I am not talking about any other guides, but the Black Book. The reason it has more credibility in my eyes, is because UCMs use to appraise trade-ins.
All I'm saying is that the "Black Book" is a very rough guide. It doesn't/can't pinpoint the actual car you are looking at.
Now, agreed, if there is a LARGE database and if the car is only 2-3 years old, the Black Book or whatever book is a good place to start, as it is more "disinterested" than the dealer.
However, don't be outraged or surprised if you offer Black Book and the dealer does not come anywhere near that price, because he may know more about market conditions and the specifics of the car he is selling than the Black Book does.
I still advise that the *best* tool is to use Autotrader, and mash up 100 comparables for sale and average them out, then deduct 10-15% for these "asking prices" and I bet you'll be more likely to make an acceptable offer.
If you rely *strictly* on the Black Book, and pay no attention to comps, you are using a fairly clumsy tool IMO.
I only do old classsic cars primarily. For newer "used cars", I generally don't use price guides with the same degree of reliance as I do for classics. I just use Autotrader's "price checker" to average out a large number of search hits. I find it remarkably accurate and hard to argue against.
If I present you with 150 ads for Car X with 2 doors, premium package, similar miles, and crunch an average asking price for those 150 similar cars, how much closer do you need to say "well that's about private party asking price"?
So then you take 10% off for dickering and you've just created your own Black Book.
Shifty's method is fairly good at determining local market for a certain vehicle.
I also want to add that if you base your offers only on book values, don't be surpirsed if you get nowhere with the offer on a decent unit, or just be careful that you don't end up with a probelmatic (accident history, rebuilt, whetever) used car just because it's cloest in price to book value (ie cheapest)
Some vehicles will pull over book value because they are exceptional in some way. The price guides don't offer enough qualifiers to catch the exceptional vehicles.
What's exceptional?
One owner very low miles complete service history recent timing belt change local car right colors, right options premium tires (not OEM) upgraded stereo
You won't find a lot of this stuff calculated in price guides. Some yes, but not all of it.
And yet that list can bump the car's value a couple thousand perhaps.
After you've done an advanced search, and you have your list of say X cars for sale, at the bottom of the page, on the left, is the price checker. It gives you highest price, lowest price and average price for as many cars as you found.
You don't have to use advanced search, but since it offers qualifiers, like mileage, type of transmission and even ZIP code, you can get a much better comparable than if you just said 'give me all 2004 Malibus' . If you did broad search you'd get cars with 40,000 miles and 240,000 miles all lumped together. This distorts your price checker.
Once you have price checker, you can go to Edmunds TMV (True Market Value) and see how it all jives.
If there's a car any of you are shopping for, I'd be glad to run the numbers and see how we do. But you need to tell me what you are looking for in terms of equipment, trim level and mileage.
Got it! I guess I had been doing that in my head all along, but that makes it easier to get hold of a number. There's still the issue of how accurate the 10% fudge factor is, but I guess that's what negotiations are for.
Well I'm thinking that whether it's a dealer or a private party, the "asking price" is not the real price. I think that if a person were asking $12,000 for a used car in today's market, they'd take around $11K, don't you? I mean, who doesn't negotiate these days?
I never seen such a sick salesperson, have you ever seen a salesperson gets mad and yell at you "I WASTED TOO MUCH TIME ON YOU". Well I got someone like that. Have you ever got your deal canceled by the dealer and gotten rid of by the dealer in the last minute? Well I got that.
Long story short, the salesperson is really pushy and psycho. I was trying to negotiate with him politely and I've shown him offers from other dealers to convince him that his price is too high. He wasted my time too much by going to his manager and coming back to me. Finally after 5 hours, we finally reached an agreement. Then when we started to do the contract, I picked the car even though I had to pick a car with more options because their inventory is short (more on inventory later). Then I asked the salesperson how many miles you're giving me on this lease, he said 12k. I said oh I thought it was 15k. At that point he went beyond the limits and threw keys at the table and walked away yelling at me "I WASTED TOO MUCH TIME ON YOU", the he took all the papers and left. I was really shocked and everyone in the room was looking at me. I went to manager to complete this deal because it was good. However, I started complaining there about the salesperson. Instead of making me happy, the manager felt that I'm unhappy and I would give him low rating in the survey. He said I'd rather not sell the car instead of getting low rating. I hoped he just yell to the salesperson or making him apologize. Instead, he came up with stupidest excuse to get rid of me. He said the car should be insured by the primary applicant and can't be insured by the co-buyer (even though I did that with a Honda). He just started to give me excuses for every solution I come up with.
Also,they said they will agree on offer I gave them if the co-applicant have score of 700+. I said ok and gave co-applicant SSN. After they ran a credit check,even though the co-applicant had excellent score with more than 700, they gave me totally different numbers for the car I wanted and then said they'll give me the cheaper trim for the price I offered. I had to go with the cheaper trim after they ran credit check.
Inventory was really bad, he told me they have the car with the color I wanted. But after we nearly closed the deal, we found they have only one color available and the color I wanted is available with more options, so I had to pay more to get the color I wanted.
=========================================== My question is, is there anything that I can do to take actions against this dealer ? I sent to Toyota Customer Experience Center but I'm not sure if that will do something. It's really bad business that they wasted 5 hours of my time and canceling my deal because I'm "unhappy". Please help, I'm really frustrated of what they did. They even refused to give me a copy of the voided contract. They just were extremely impolite.
I was trying to negotiate with him politely and I've shown him offers from other dealers to convince him that his price is too high. He wasted my time too much by going to his manager and coming back to me. Finally after 5 hours, we finally reached an agreement.
Nothing you can do except to learn from the experience. Your first mistake was staying that long. If you had offers from other dealers, you should've gone with them.
Just go to one of the other dealers from whom you already had offers.
From what I've seen on Autotrader in this area, it's pie-in-the-sky pricing on 70% of the vehicles by dealers, used car lots, and a few individuals. Most have prices they'd like to get listed ignoring reality. The other factor is the prices aren't cash prices; they are for the credit-challenged who can't pay attention to the total paid but are looking only to find someone to finance them. So the dealers have exorbitant pricing to accomodate those buyers unworthy of credit.
You can eliminate dealer offerings on Autotrader's advanced search, if you'd like to exclude these pumped up prices when you do your comparables averaging through the Price Checker.
I agree, all of those item would increase the value to me, with the first 3 being the most important. I wonder about the timing belt change though. I'd have to wonder if they only changed the timing belt after it broke and bent the valves all to heck. I supose my decision would be based on what the complete service records revealed.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Well you're supposed to change timing belts at set intervals. If the interval was 60,000 miles and the car you're looking at has 65,000 and NO service records, then the onus is on you to change the belt or take the risk. On some cars, this service isn't cheap.
Case in point: I was looking at a very clean used car that had no record of a timing belt change, and had a small rip in the convertible top and tires nearing the end of their life. Well, that's a total of $1,800 right off the top and I hadn't even driven it yet!!
And yet the advert mentioned none of this. Is this car comparable to a similar car with a good top, good tires and service records? Not at all.
I wonder as well. I bought a used car for 18% off asking price once. The salesman was trying to club me and wouldn't go lower than about 15%. I called with my final offer and talked to the SM on a day the salesman wasn't there. He immediately met my price. The eagerness of his acceptance suggested that there was more money on the table but at that point I had made a commitment to buy. I can't help but wonder how much more was there. My guess is 20-30%.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
You should have walked away if it took that long and if the salesperson was that rude. I agree, the salesperson should have been calmer about things, but I believe there's something more to this than what's written here.
If they didn't have the car you wanted you could have left and went to a dealer that has your exact car. Nobody made you buy a more expensive car.
You should have confirmed the lease mileage before the contract was written up. It is a considerable factor that would affect the overall figures on any lease.
The manager should have not cancelled the contract when you were complaining about the salesperson. However the manager will not bring in a salesperson and make him publicly apoligize to a customer. Disciplinary action is done behind the scenes.
The "excuse" of having the main or co applicant applicant as an insurer of the car, is not an excuse, but a rule that many car companies go by.
Just because Honda didn't require of that, it doesn't mean that Toyota or another bank will be the same. Typically both a buyer, and co buyer have to be on the contract and both have to be on the insurance.
A credit score is not the only thing banks look at. They also look at trade lines, and how much money is owed on all of the accounts. The reason the numbers changed could have been because your co-signer had too much debt load. Wasn't your co signer with you during the process?
Inventory..... once again you say they made you buy a cheaper car but then you bought the more expensive car because they didn't have the cheaper car? :confuse:
The transaction should have went like this:
You go in, pick the car, the color, the option, the price/payments. Do a credit application with your co signer. Once everything is good take the car home.
OR if you have bad credit:
Go in and get pre approved. Find out how much you qualify for. The dealer would give you a choice of cars to choose from that fit your approval. You pick the car that you like, go over payments, and sign and drive away.
I believe this was a result of a lousy dealer dealing with an unreasonable customer. Yes, I believe that there is more to this than it is written here.
I believe you stayed that long because you had a list of offers from other dealers. Wouldn't you consider getting those offers as wasting their time? You didn't even go to a dealer that gave you the best offer. You went somehwere else (to this lousy dealer) to get the best offer beaten. That's what wasted your 5 hours. You did by negotiating from the start.
There's not much you can do other than find the dealer that originally gave you the best price and go buy there.
Here is the truth: You are a grinder, and no one wants to spend 5 hours on you for a minimum commission and a bad survey. You want a fast service with a smile - let a dealer make a profit. You want to grind - be ready to get thrown out the door. If you had lower offers from other dealers - why didn't you go there? "You thought it was 15K miles" is not enough a reason for the to give it to you for free, it's no one's fault you weren't clear on what you want. If I had a customer that is moaning and bitching for 5 hours - I wouldn't want to sell him a car either, and we vave the right to refuse service to anyone. You don't like that - complain to your congressman.
the "asking price" is not the real price. I think that if a person were asking $12,000 for a used car in today's market, they'd take around $11K, don't you?
Oh yeah, most dealerships would take that in a heartbeat. They'd also probably take $10.5k without much of a fight.
Okay, figure 5-10%.
That's way too low shifty. On a 4 year old car, which is typically what your numbers would be referencing on a $12,000 car , you should be looking at 15-20% off asking price. There would be very little re-conditioning of a car that old (young).
The salesman was trying to club me and wouldn't go lower than about 15%. I called with my final offer and talked to the SM on a day the salesman wasn't there. He immediately met my price. The eagerness of his acceptance suggested that there was more money on the table but at that point I had made a commitment to buy.
Good for you that you made the deal. But, can't help wonder how the salesperson felt about the SM taking part of his commission. After all, it was probably the SM that was rejecting your 18% off offer all along, while the salesperson was acting the middle man and doing all the work trying to get it to 15%.
i have been doing reseach on buying a new car for myself and i came across a site that had said if a dealer charges you dealer prep fees and they dont drop them go somewhere else because that is a way they are trying to get more money. i asked a dealer if they could drop that fee and they told me it is illegal for them to do that. is this true? how come some people say they got it dropped but its posed to be illegal? was the dealer just telling me anything?
Do you realize what they did ? I gave them an offer as soon as I entered, I even spoke with them over the internet before I came in. The freakin guy said come to our showroom we have what you want!!!! The minute I came in the guy started playing game and he said because I don't have credit history, he DOUBLED my down payment from $4,000 to $8,000 (even though I told him about the limited credit over the internet). I told him this is really unreasonable. Then he says, I'll be back and he spends half an hour with his friends back there then come back to change the numbers, just like he's playing a game. Every time he just decreases like 5 dollars of the monthly price. He's freaking time waster NOT ME!!!. Finally,When I told him I'll bring a co-applicant he said OK. I wrote my offer details on a paper and signed it. He added "OK IF CO-APPLICANT HAS SCORE MORE THAN 700". Guess what ? After he the ran credit check. The co-applicant passed the requirement and then the salesperson gave me different price. He said I'll give you your price on the cheaper trim.
No offense, don't say I'm grinding before you read and understand the whole post. And since when the customer wants to waste 5 hours of his day ? I never seen salesperson do his job efficiently and fast. All salespersons waste time too much on one customer and they always get one deal or less per day.It's THEIR JOB to waste time.
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2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
If you don't ask, you don't get.
Remember, you can ask whatever you want, it's what you finally sell the car for that matters.
This applies to all the used cars and all dealers across the country, especially the one I work at
If a car has been discounted already, expect another $50 off.
Ok, I was just pulling your leg there. Look the discount really depends on how much the dealer is into the car for. If they paid too much for it on a trade either because it's a museum quality piece worth every penny, or because they needed to make a deal happen, there's not going to sell it at a certain price because black book says this or that.
The truth is every single used car is different, and prices paid for them are different, and there is no set rules as for trading in and pricing them.
But as a general rule expect anywhere from $500 to $2000 off on a used car, once again depending on the lot, and $0-$500 on deeply discounted clearance units.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
This may be true for very low priced cars, but not for anything that's more substantial in price. If we take in a car for $20k, there's no way we can sell it for $40k.
If they sold you a Corolla for half the asking price, they could have had it on the lot for a while and decided to take a loss on it.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
I have not bought at 50% since 1972, when I paid 750 for a 67 Chevy II marked 1495, so that agrees with boomchek, although back then, you could buy a new VW Bug for 2K. In today's market, 3 year old low end commuters should be easy enough to buy very cheap. The Corolla example was 55% of an asking price that was already too high.
I buy my wife new cars and usually get used for myself. The used have been just as reliable as the new. And sometimes when I've walked, I haven't gotten that call back - we only report our negotiating successes, not our failures!
That is sure true with car sales, and maybe other types of sales as well. I just have to wonder how many times you could have moved a unit at a decent price but the asking price chased a potential buyer away.
Here's an example. I'm checking out Craigslist for a basic transportation car for my son who doesn't have a lot of money. Today I spotted an older low milage Buick that looked promising. Trouble was, the asking price was twice TMV and about $500 over KBB "excellent". Seller stated he was firm on the price.
I kept looking. Now maybe there are some Jipster's or jmonroe's or even a snake out there who would take that "firm" price as a challenge and call the guy up but me, I look elsewhere.
I realize I may be the odd ball here but I do have cash.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
1. Complete inspection for any repaired accident damage. If I can fit, I crawl under the vehicle from one side with a flashlight and out the other (This can be entertaining to the salesman and break the ice). If ground clearance does not allow for that - squeeze as much as possible under the car to try to reach anything that may need to be reached for service - drain plugs, filters etc. I leave even the minor fender-benders for somebody else.
2. Discount Carfax reports - unless they report damage. Wife's car got T-boned once and I traded it in with full disclosure to the dealer with all receipts includede as it never appeared on Carfax.
3. service records/book.
Anything unusual - just walk. Don't fall in love with a piece of machinery.
I prefer to buy used from new car dealers because then I'm dealing with professionals and we can negotiate without emotion. After all, you're buying a used tool.
Long ago, I worked in real estate and the key to pricing a property for sale is to undercut your competition just enough...
Sounds like my 99 Buick Regal LS with 86k miles... not for sale mister! :P
I use to buy solely from private owners, usually friends of family members. I think dealerships are the way to go now though. They may ask double the TMV, but at least they have a realistic idea on how much the car is worth, and will negotiate accordingly.
TMV on that is $3773 in outstanding condition. On Craigslist it would probably list for 5K.
I'd give you $3500 because I hear you change the oil every 1500 miles.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Just because a dealer has overpaid on the car, it doesn’t mean that the customer has to step up and save them by paying more than it is worth. That is absurd. Dealers don’t care what customers owe on their trade-ins. Why should customers care about what dealers owe on cars that they sell?
Black Books (i.e. auction values) are very relevant to the value of a car. Auctions truly determine the true wholesale market value of the car. If the car is popular, it will be bid up higher; and if it is a dog, it will sell for less.
My rule of thumb is; take the current wholesale book value of the car, add about $1500 for newer cars and $2500 for older units. That should cover transport, reconditioning and profit.
If we paid over book for a car becaue it's truly and excellent example, then we'll wait for the right buyer to see that as well, and willing to pay that premium.
And we will hold off for the right buyer, instead of taking a loss on it. If someone doesn't see the value then they're not obligated to pay X amount, just as we're not obligated to sell it for what a "price guide" says it should be sold for.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Look the discount really depends on how much the dealer is into the car for. If they paid too much for it on a trade either because it's a museum quality piece worth every penny, or because they needed to make a deal happen, there's not going to sell it at a certain price because black book says this or that.
The highlighted clause was what I was referring to. Just because a dealer over allowed on a car to make his monthly bonus goals, that doesn’t mean that a customer should pay more for this car when they buy it used.
Another thing that fascinates me is when salespeople complain about the cost of the repairs and reconditioning. If the dealer didn’t notice those problems at trade-in time and paid too much for the car; it is dealer’s problem, not customer’s.
Sounds reasonable. I think that would generally put the value of a car between Edmunds trade-in value and private party.
Costs of repairs and reconditioning are real, and they add cost to vehicles.
When it comes down to grinding to the last dollar and everything all the costs are out in the open, then yes these things will come up.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
I had that happen with a dealer down year ages ago. All he wanted to show me was how much he had into this car. He had receipts for all sorts of stuff he'd done. No matter what I said that's all he came back to. Since he couldn't get into where the real market was I just went elsewhere.
What I am saying is that, from buyers’ point of view, the reverse is true. Guides that are based on auction values represent the true market, and buyers should negotiate relative to that value; just like they should negotiate relative to the invoice and not MSRP.
If the dealer refuses to deal with reality, then walk. Let them wait for an ignorant customer, or take the car to the wholesale auction where they’ll lose even more.
Now if you were talking about the auction RESULTS, the "raw numbers" that Manheim issues on computer, that's a bit different than a "guide". A guide is like processed cheese, and the raw data has been plugged into formulas, and massaged this way and that, into compromises.
But Manheim's raw data is just a list of what people paid at dealer auctions, listed by miles, equipment, etc. And even THERE you find price variations on a list of ten Saabs auctioned one right after the other.
I know guides are not perfect and there are better resources of information out there. However, Manheim's raw data is not available to regular buyers. The Black Book Online is available with some research. http://www.cudlautosmart.com/Research/TradeInValues.aspx?WT.svl=SubMenu
This “guide”, as imperfect as it is, is still better than relying on dealers’ asking prices to determine what the market value of a car really is.
If the Black Book Guide is so imperfect, why is it that every UCM that I have ever met has one in his pocket?
But regardless, as a buyer with little knowledge of the market, would you rather base your offer on a wholesale “guide” value + X, or dealer’s asking price – X?
All new cars are the same, every used car is different.
That's the mantra a car dealer will tell you, and you know, he's right.
The dealer's "asking prices" are just him exercising his first amendment rights. He can ask whatever he wants.
It's the buyer who sets the market price, not the guides, not the dealer.
The guides' opinions and the dealer's opinions are *reflections* of what the buyer has already determined.
If the dealer can sell a car repeatedly "over book" that means the guides are not in step with a sudden feverish demand.
If the dealer's prices are too high and the cars "rot on the lot", then he goes out of business.
Last of all, different guides showing different pricing based on what they are trying to accomplish. Guide X might show private party retail averages, Guide Y might show dealer REALIZED prices, Guide Z might show dealer ASKING prices as reported. Guide W might show auction wholesale pricing.
Which one is right? They ALL ARE!
This thread was started by a buyer who asked a question of how much over the Black Book should I offer. A salesman’s response was, which I think was a bit self serving, don’t worry about the Black Book and just make an offer relative to the asking price because sometimes we pay more for cars than we should. I am paraphrasing here, but this is basically the topic of the thread.
I still say that that buyer will be better served if he goes with his gut and makes an offer from Black Book plus rather than the asking price minus.
I am not talking about any other guides, but the Black Book. The reason it has more credibility in my eyes, is because UCMs use to appraise trade-ins.
All I'm saying is that the "Black Book" is a very rough guide. It doesn't/can't pinpoint the actual car you are looking at.
Now, agreed, if there is a LARGE database and if the car is only 2-3 years old, the Black Book or whatever book is a good place to start, as it is more "disinterested" than the dealer.
However, don't be outraged or surprised if you offer Black Book and the dealer does not come anywhere near that price, because he may know more about market conditions and the specifics of the car he is selling than the Black Book does.
I still advise that the *best* tool is to use Autotrader, and mash up 100 comparables for sale and average them out, then deduct 10-15% for these "asking prices" and I bet you'll be more likely to make an acceptable offer.
If you rely *strictly* on the Black Book, and pay no attention to comps, you are using a fairly clumsy tool IMO.
If I present you with 150 ads for Car X with 2 doors, premium package, similar miles, and crunch an average asking price for those 150 similar cars, how much closer do you need to say "well that's about private party asking price"?
So then you take 10% off for dickering and you've just created your own Black Book.
Actually I kind of knew that you were in the classics but it was too easy a line .....
Your Autotrader method makes sense. I can't see how far wrong one could go using that.
I also want to add that if you base your offers only on book values, don't be surpirsed if you get nowhere with the offer on a decent unit, or just be careful that you don't end up with a probelmatic (accident history, rebuilt, whetever) used car just because it's cloest in price to book value (ie cheapest)
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
What's exceptional?
One owner
very low miles
complete service history
recent timing belt change
local car
right colors, right options
premium tires (not OEM)
upgraded stereo
You won't find a lot of this stuff calculated in price guides. Some yes, but not all of it.
And yet that list can bump the car's value a couple thousand perhaps.
You don't have to use advanced search, but since it offers qualifiers, like mileage, type of transmission and even ZIP code, you can get a much better comparable than if you just said 'give me all 2004 Malibus' . If you did broad search you'd get cars with 40,000 miles and 240,000 miles all lumped together. This distorts your price checker.
Once you have price checker, you can go to Edmunds TMV (True Market Value) and see how it all jives.
If there's a car any of you are shopping for, I'd be glad to run the numbers and see how we do. But you need to tell me what you are looking for in terms of equipment, trim level and mileage.
Okay, figure 5-10%.
Have you ever got your deal canceled by the dealer and gotten rid of by the dealer in the last minute? Well I got that.
Long story short, the salesperson is really pushy and psycho. I was trying to negotiate with him politely and I've shown him offers from other dealers to convince him that his price is too high. He wasted my time too much by going to his manager and coming back to me. Finally after 5 hours, we finally reached an agreement. Then when we started to do the contract, I picked the car even though I had to pick a car with more options because their inventory is short (more on inventory later). Then I asked the salesperson how many miles you're giving me on this lease, he said 12k. I said oh I thought it was 15k. At that point he went beyond the limits and threw keys at the table and walked away yelling at me "I WASTED TOO MUCH TIME ON YOU", the he took all the papers and left. I was really shocked and everyone in the room was looking at me. I went to manager to complete this deal because it was good. However, I started complaining there about the salesperson. Instead of making me happy, the manager felt that I'm unhappy and I would give him low rating in the survey. He said I'd rather not sell the car instead of getting low rating. I hoped he just yell to the salesperson or making him apologize. Instead, he came up with stupidest excuse to get rid of me. He said the car should be insured by the primary applicant and can't be insured by the co-buyer (even though I did that with a Honda). He just started to give me excuses for every solution I come up with.
Also,they said they will agree on offer I gave them if the co-applicant have score of 700+. I said ok and gave co-applicant SSN. After they ran a credit check,even though the co-applicant had excellent score with more than 700, they gave me totally different numbers for the car I wanted and then said they'll give me the cheaper trim for the price I offered. I had to go with the cheaper trim after they ran credit check.
Inventory was really bad, he told me they have the car with the color I wanted. But after we nearly closed the deal, we found they have only one color available and the color I wanted is available with more options, so I had to pay more to get the color I wanted.
===========================================
My question is, is there anything that I can do to take actions against this dealer ? I sent to Toyota Customer Experience Center but I'm not sure if that will do something. It's really bad business that they wasted 5 hours of my time and canceling my deal because I'm "unhappy". Please help, I'm really frustrated of what they did. They even refused to give me a copy of the voided contract. They just were extremely impolite.
Nothing you can do except to learn from the experience. Your first mistake was staying that long. If you had offers from other dealers, you should've gone with them.
Just go to one of the other dealers from whom you already had offers.
A.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You can eliminate dealer offerings on Autotrader's advanced search, if you'd like to exclude these pumped up prices when you do your comparables averaging through the Price Checker.
I agree, all of those item would increase the value to me, with the first 3 being the most important. I wonder about the timing belt change though. I'd have to wonder if they only changed the timing belt after it broke and bent the valves all to heck. I supose my decision would be based on what the complete service records revealed.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Case in point: I was looking at a very clean used car that had no record of a timing belt change, and had a small rip in the convertible top and tires nearing the end of their life. Well, that's a total of $1,800 right off the top and I hadn't even driven it yet!!
And yet the advert mentioned none of this. Is this car comparable to a similar car with a good top, good tires and service records? Not at all.
But the price guide prices them the same.
I wonder as well. I bought a used car for 18% off asking price once. The salesman was trying to club me and wouldn't go lower than about 15%. I called with my final offer and talked to the SM on a day the salesman wasn't there. He immediately met my price. The eagerness of his acceptance suggested that there was more money on the table but at that point I had made a commitment to buy. I can't help but wonder how much more was there. My guess is 20-30%.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
If they didn't have the car you wanted you could have left and went to a dealer that has your exact car. Nobody made you buy a more expensive car.
You should have confirmed the lease mileage before the contract was written up. It is a considerable factor that would affect the overall figures on any lease.
The manager should have not cancelled the contract when you were complaining about the salesperson. However the manager will not bring in a salesperson and make him publicly apoligize to a customer. Disciplinary action is done behind the scenes.
The "excuse" of having the main or co applicant applicant as an insurer of the car, is not an excuse, but a rule that many car companies go by.
Just because Honda didn't require of that, it doesn't mean that Toyota or another bank will be the same. Typically both a buyer, and co buyer have to be on the contract and both have to be on the insurance.
A credit score is not the only thing banks look at. They also look at trade lines, and how much money is owed on all of the accounts. The reason the numbers changed could have been because your co-signer had too much debt load. Wasn't your co signer with you during the process?
Inventory..... once again you say they made you buy a cheaper car but then you bought the more expensive car because they didn't have the cheaper car? :confuse:
The transaction should have went like this:
You go in, pick the car, the color, the option, the price/payments. Do a credit application with your co signer. Once everything is good take the car home.
OR if you have bad credit:
Go in and get pre approved. Find out how much you qualify for. The dealer would give you a choice of cars to choose from that fit your approval. You pick the car that you like, go over payments, and sign and drive away.
I believe this was a result of a lousy dealer dealing with an unreasonable customer. Yes, I believe that there is more to this than it is written here.
I believe you stayed that long because you had a list of offers from other dealers. Wouldn't you consider getting those offers as wasting their time? You didn't even go to a dealer that gave you the best offer. You went somehwere else (to this lousy dealer) to get the best offer beaten. That's what wasted your 5 hours. You did by negotiating from the start.
There's not much you can do other than find the dealer that originally gave you the best price and go buy there.
Good luck.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
You want a fast service with a smile - let a dealer make a profit. You want to grind - be ready to get thrown out the door.
If you had lower offers from other dealers - why didn't you go there?
"You thought it was 15K miles" is not enough a reason for the to give it to you for free, it's no one's fault you weren't clear on what you want.
If I had a customer that is moaning and bitching for 5 hours - I wouldn't want to sell him a car either, and we vave the right to refuse service to anyone. You don't like that - complain to your congressman.
Oh yeah, most dealerships would take that in a heartbeat. They'd also probably take $10.5k without much of a fight.
Okay, figure 5-10%.
That's way too low shifty. On a 4 year old car, which is typically what your numbers would be referencing on a $12,000 car , you should be looking at 15-20% off asking price. There would be very little re-conditioning of a car that old (young).
Good for you that you made the deal. But, can't help wonder how the salesperson felt about the SM taking part of his commission. After all, it was probably the SM that was rejecting your 18% off offer all along, while the salesperson was acting the middle man and doing all the work trying to get it to 15%.
Do you realize what they did ? I gave them an offer as soon as I entered, I even spoke with them over the internet before I came in. The freakin guy said come to our showroom we have what you want!!!!
The minute I came in the guy started playing game and he said because I don't have credit history, he DOUBLED my down payment from $4,000 to $8,000 (even though I told him about the limited credit over the internet). I told him this is really unreasonable. Then he says, I'll be back and he spends half an hour with his friends back there then come back to change the numbers, just like he's playing a game. Every time he just decreases like 5 dollars of the monthly price. He's freaking time waster NOT ME!!!. Finally,When I told him I'll bring a co-applicant he said OK. I wrote my offer details on a paper and signed it. He added "OK IF CO-APPLICANT HAS SCORE MORE THAN 700". Guess what ? After he the ran credit check. The co-applicant passed the requirement and then the salesperson gave me different price. He said I'll give you your price on the cheaper trim.
No offense, don't say I'm grinding before you read and understand the whole post.
And since when the customer wants to waste 5 hours of his day ? I never seen salesperson do his job efficiently and fast. All salespersons waste time too much on one customer and they always get one deal or less per day.It's THEIR JOB to waste time.