Real-World Trade-In Values

qbrozen

If truly great condition, could be $13.5-$14k.

isellhondas

kyfdx said:

Also... when the dealer goes to the auction, they can buy whatever vehicle they want. If it's a make/model they don't want, they just pass it up.

But, if you are trading, they have to take your car. If it's not something they would have purchased, otherwise, they are not going to offer you the full auction price. If it's something they would rather not have at all, then they have to send it to auction, pay transport and auction fees, etc, etc.

That is a very good point! This happens pretty often. A customer has a trade that the dealer simply doesn't want! He may have three already that have been sitting. It may be a bad color or something that just doesn't sell. Yet, they HAVE to take the trade in or lose the sale on the new car. Making things worse are they shoppers who "know" what their trade is worth! Kelly Blue Book doesn't buy cars! They simply print values which may or not reflect reality. We took in a lot of used cars that we just hoped didn't bomb at the auction!

andres3

isellhondas said:

kyfdx said:

Also... when the dealer goes to the auction, they can buy whatever vehicle they want. If it's a make/model they don't want, they just pass it up.

But, if you are trading, they have to take your car. If it's not something they would have purchased, otherwise, they are not going to offer you the full auction price. If it's something they would rather not have at all, then they have to send it to auction, pay transport and auction fees, etc, etc.

That is a very good point! This happens pretty often. A customer has a trade that the dealer simply doesn't want! He may have three already that have been sitting. It may be a bad color or something that just doesn't sell. Yet, they HAVE to take the trade in or lose the sale on the new car. Making things worse are they shoppers who "know" what their trade is worth! Kelly Blue Book doesn't buy cars! They simply print values which may or not reflect reality. We took in a lot of used cars that we just hoped didn't bomb at the auction!

Penske dealerships have done a "get Kelly Blue Book" trade-in value promotions in the past. I have a feeling the "books" are favorable to dealerships on trade-ins.

isellhondas

Not really. Sometimes the numbers make sense other times not. It's always the MARKET that determines pricing which may or may not be in accordance with what the books say.

Mr_Shiftright

That's right. Buyers set the market price, nobody else. Perhaps dealers or price guides can influence the buyer, but ultimately, the market bows to the buyer.

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

That's right. Buyers set the market price, nobody else. Perhaps dealers or price guides can influence the buyer, but ultimately, the market bows to the buyer.

Sellers are able to manipulate the price buyers are willing to pay by controlling the supply. Make something very limited and the supply is so low it drives the price up. I think the M2 and TTRS fall into this category.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't know about that, in actual fact. The theory of supply and demand sounds good but there are plenty of rare things that nobody wants. There may be short-term emotional buys that drive up prices but "The Market" looks at the long view and and takes in a vast number of sales points for consideration.

So the one or two sales of some "rare" car are no more the market than the weather outside your window is "The Weather" all over the globe.

With today's internet, it's very hard to "control the supply" of anything. I think breld proves that a number of times.

steine13

Well I dunno about that shifty.. seems like breld controls the demand pretty good

Mr_Shiftright

The source of power for the buyer is not only yes, but also NO! So powerbuyer breld says "no, I don't want your rare TTRS at that price". If a few brelds in a row do that, the price is gonna drop.

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

The source of power for the buyer is not only yes, but also NO! So powerbuyer breld says "no, I don't want your rare TTRS at that price". If a few brelds in a row do that, the price is gonna drop.

That's my selfish reason for being against the $15 minimum wage. I don't need McDonald's workers driving up the price of everything by saying "yes" to sellers all the time, including my Audi's (Inflation is a problem).

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

I don't know about that, in actual fact. The theory of supply and demand sounds good but there are plenty of rare things that nobody wants. There may be short-term emotional buys that drive up prices but "The Market" looks at the long view and and takes in a vast number of sales points for consideration.

So the one or two sales of some "rare" car are no more the market than the weather outside your window is "The Weather" all over the globe.

With today's internet, it's very hard to "control the supply" of anything. I think breld proves that a number of times.

Well, on something like the TTRS, if it is true a dealership only gets a certain allotment that is extremely limited, they might not be inclined to give you a deal on an "ordered car." You take the one on the lot, or, if you say no, another guy says yes the next day and now you have zero TTRS's to buy brand new.

A buyer has to take this into consideration. If I'm told No to my offer at a Honda dealership, I'm certain I can find that exact configuration somewhere.

Mr_Shiftright

The "shortage" is an artificial concept, though. There's only a "shortage" if there is desire out there. Buyers' tastes can change in the snap of the fingers. Buyers rule.

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

The "shortage" is an artificial concept, though. There's only a "shortage" if there is desire out there. Buyers' tastes can change in the snap of the fingers. Buyers rule.

I suppose that's what it boils down to. My position is they would sell more M2's and more TTRS's if they built them, they would come.

It might drive down the average transaction price down a bit, but they could sell a lot more in the US than they currently do.

I do know some status/badge buyers look at rarity as a good thing. They buy the $100K Porsche over the Audi for no other reason than less people can afford it than the lowly TTRS. Not saying everyone does so, but some do, especially the LA types.

Michaell

Substitute "Civic Type R" for "TTRS" and @breld went through that exact scenario last year.

None of the dealers in Denver were willing to discount the car - or, they had a waiting list that was quite long - so he found a car in KY from a dealer where there wasn't a lot of demand.

The struck a price that was fair to both parties - MSRP, plus some Honda accessories - and he had the car shipped to CO.

There are still private sellers - and dealers, I'm sure - that are asking $5-10K above MSRP for their cars. Sorry, the initial demand has been met, so transaction prices will drop to market correct.

andres3

Michaell said:

Substitute "Civic Type R" for "TTRS" and @breld went through that exact scenario last year.

None of the dealers in Denver were willing to discount the car - or, they had a waiting list that was quite long - so he found a car in KY from a dealer where there wasn't a lot of demand.

The struck a price that was fair to both parties - MSRP, plus some Honda accessories - and he had the car shipped to CO.

There are still private sellers - and dealers, I'm sure - that are asking $5-10K above MSRP for their cars. Sorry, the initial demand has been met, so transaction prices will drop to market correct.

Sticker isn't usually market correct though, is it? Are there not some people that will never pay sticker? I've seen both the TTRS and Type R offered for sticker after the initial heat wore off quickly, but I haven't seen or heard of a below-sticker purchase or offer to sell.

tbirdmarco

Love those current jen Tauruses red nice

tbirdmarco

@fushigi glad the wife is ok and not searisally injered!

tbirdmarco

@just_focus:
I hear you! on all of that!

fushigi

Thanks, tbird. The bruise on her knee is slowly fading and the tenderness in her shoulder from the seatbelt is also improving daily. Her car is faring pretty well too & should be ready for pickup from the repair shop Monday.

iluvmysephia1

fushigi - was she driving a Mitsubishi product in that accident?

fushigi

Hi iluv. She was driving the Elantra mentioned in my sig. No more Mitsus in the household at the moment.

Still have to have a conversation with the insurance co about comp for diminished value, which I'm pegging at around $2K (20% of current value). Either that or we start talking pain & suffering .. either way we need to be made whole since it was the other person's fault (he was cited by the police).

just_focus

@Steine13:
I guess I do not understand but I think it goes back to the dealer is going to get as much as they can for any car on their lot. When I visit the large dealerships the cheapest cars they have are $10,000.00 and when I say where are the $5000.00 cars they laugh. They tell me that every car that comes in for $5000.00 or less is gone with in a day or two. The truth of the matter is the $5000.00 cars that come in are now $10,000.00 cars. I understand about staying in business but why have the book values changed so much between trade in value and retail value? For example a 2007 Highlander Limited has a 90% difference between trade in an retail? Something more is happening here and I believe it has to do with the thousands of used cars that I see in parking lots with no tags on them. I am going to guess whatever trick the dealers are pulling with this it is going to come crashing down some day.

stickguy

I think that markup (trade vs. retail difference) is more of a fixed dollar amount, not a %. So a cheap car is going to have a much bigger % increase compared to a more expensive car.

Using the $3K bump that seems pretty standard, on a $3,000 trade, retail becomes $6K, so 100% increase. But on a $30K car, that retails for $33K, you are only looking at 10%.

traditionally on the low end, new car dealers are not the place to go. Even a lot of higher quality used lots don't play in that sandbox. Instead, you get little mom and pop or BHPH lots, and a lot of private sales. There are a lot of $5K cars out there. Just need to know where to look (and what to be looking for).

Tough price point though. I always recommend that if you can stretch a little, can get way more bang for the long term buck at 10K.

qbrozen

yeah, I feel $7500 is about the cutoff between hooptie and decent transportation.

stickguy

seems fair. And if you are not shopping hi-line stuff, don't have to go much higher to suddenly be into nearly new/low miles territory. Just helped my nephew get new wheels (he had a 1999-2000ish V6 Passat with 250K miles and many problems). He was looking at stuff in the 8-10K range, and mentioning 7-8 YO/90-100K Yotas, etc. I found him a loaner Jetta SE (2017 with about 8K miles) at his local VW dealer, that he ended up paying ~14.5K for. 2+ years warranty left, well equipped, etc. I thought it was a much better long term deal, since he wants to keep the car for a long time.

tommister2

Hi folks, I haven't been here for a while...lots of changes, dealing with aging parents. I know many of you have been through it before. This is actually what brings me here. My Dad can no longer drive his car so I'd like to get a trade/buy bid estimate for it. I'll probably take it to Carmax and their competitors in the area.
2015 Subaru Forester 2.5i Limited
Red pearl exterior/light beige leather
Seems to just have the standard features plus a few accessories (all season mats, bumper cover, stuff like that). The stuff I think is standard - leather heated seats, large glass roof, auto climate control.
18,700 miles
2 small blemishes - a small ding at the front of the hood and a scrape on the back bumper. Otherwise it's very clean. The interior still looks new. I don't think the back seats have ever been used.
It is in Virginia Beach, VA
I've been driving it on the weekends - it's a great car. It seems that he lost his driving privileges soon enough to prevent him from tearing it up.

So, I'm thinking trade in value would be somewhere in the $16-17k range. Am I close? Thanks!

qbrozen

A little better than you think. Trade would be about $18k. Maybe carmax will step up to $18.5 or $19 on it, though. 

stickguy

man those things hold their value. Sounds like a car I would like to have (colors, equipment, etc.). But pricey. Though the miles are low on it.

tommister2

Thanks for the feedback @qbrozen

just_focus

Stickguy:
I agree with you and that the cheaper cars ($3000.00) get marked up 100% because the dealer wants to make $3000.00. I do not agree with it because just imagine if everyone conducted business that way. Grocery stores shoot for a gross margin and make way more on a tub of makeup than a loaf of bread but if the car dealers would own a grocery store they would price the $2 bread at $10.00 a loaf because hey we got to make it worth are time. I have been buying used 2005 and 2006 Honda CR-Vs for a while now. I have been averaging 7 cents a mile depreciation and another 7 cents a mile for maintenance. I have 3 of them right now. I take them up to 200,000 miles and then sell them and buy another. (I have 3 boys) This has been a pretty good deal because the 05/06 CR-Vs were the best Honda built. If someone else has a formula that is less than 14 cents a mile for depreciation and maintenance I would love to hear about it. I have all my maintenance done at a shop.

qbrozen

You can't compare groceries or any other high volume business. It doesn't take 4 hours of a salesman's time, significant real estate, or "floor plan" to keep and sell a loaf of bread.

BTW, there are other businesses out there that have even higher markup. You really think clothing stores and furniture stores are losing money during their "50% off" sales? A $30k used car may have 10% markup and a $3k car may have 100% markup, but a $30k piece of furniture and a $3k piece of furniture BOTH have 100% markup (if not more). 

tjc78

Yes this is 100% true. Many retailers still make 50 points even selling “on sale” at deep discounts. It’s just the way it works. Many retailers mark up things knowing that they give out coupons like crazy too. Case in point wife wants some Kitchen Aid thing and it’s 79.99 at Amazon..... Bed Bath is 99.99 but they give out 20% off coupons like water so they have to protect their margin.

nyccarguy

The unfortunate thing is to make people think they are getting a "deal."  I see it all the time with plumbing fixtures.  They show a price that is list price (nobody pays list price) and show "FAUCET DIRECT 40% off PRICE" or my favorite, "$65.00.  COMPARE AT $135.00.  You Save X%". 

Many of these companies have pricing policies that say they can't advertise there product online for below a certain price.  The websites get around this by showing that price and say "sign up for our email newsletter and receive a special price at checkout."  

Very frustrating for an an independent retailer.

scoobie123

2011 BMW 135I convertible, m sport package, excellent condition, new convertible top last month, no damage. Any thoughts on value?

kyfdx

scoobie123 said:

2011 BMW 135I convertible, m sport package, excellent condition, new convertible top last month, no damage. Any thoughts on value?

Mileage?
Color inside and out?
Stick or automatic?

qbrozen

scoobie123 said:

2011 BMW 135I convertible, m sport package, excellent condition, new convertible top last month, no damage. Any thoughts on value?

Not enough input. Miles? Colors? Transmission? Location? Why did it need a new top if it is in otherwise "excellent" condition?

stickguy

Hey Q. What’s looking fair on these 2? Decent deals?

http://www.cherryhillaudi.com/certified/Audi/2016-Audi-TTS-331108c30a0e0ae84925708c9b3ede01.htm

Http://www.cherryhillaudi.com/certified/Audi/2015-Audi-S5-c1003d9d0a0e0ae804ee321deacb9b4e.htm

qbrozen

stickguy said:

Hey Q. What’s looking fair on these 2? Decent deals? http://www.cherryhillaudi.com/certified/Audi/2016-Audi-TTS-331108c30a0e0ae84925708c9b3ede01.htm Http://www.cherryhillaudi.com/certified/Audi/2015-Audi-S5-c1003d9d0a0e0ae804ee321deacb9b4e.htm

As if you are buying? ;b

The S5 may be a good deal for CPO. Condition is a huge factor. $30k examples are scored a high 3 in condition, while low to mid 4s get $32k.

The TTS would be right at $36k at the block, so 42 is pushing it. $40k for CPO would be OK, IMHO.

stickguy

Out of my price range. And pretty sure my wife would hate it.

pensfan83

tjc78 said:

Yes this is 100% true. Many retailers still make 50 points even selling “on sale” at deep discounts. It’s just the way it works. Many retailers mark up things knowing that they give out coupons like crazy too. Case in point wife wants some Kitchen Aid thing and it’s 79.99 at Amazon..... Bed Bath is 99.99 but they give out 20% off coupons like water so they have to protect their margin.

This. I have had the same conversation with my wife, mom, and mother-in-law to no avail.

scoobie123

46,700 Miles, Black with coral red leather interior, ^ Speed MAnual, 300hp twin turbo, West Palm Beach FL. The original top back window separated from the canvas at the bottom of the window and there was no lasting fix based on its design. I suspect it happened in a car wash. Assume it is in very good condition, not mint, but well maintained and no other issues. Thank you in advance

qbrozen

Hmmm... I'd guess $10.5k-$11k on your bimmer. It really is a guess because of that manual tranny. You could see $10k or you could see $11.5k if the dealer feels strongly one way or the other.

scoobie123

so the kbb values of very good condition at $12.5 are a dream?

28firefighter

@scoobie123 - Probably. KBB doesn't buy cars, so they're not always going to be on the money. Q has access to the auction information.

scoobie123

gotcha. many thanks. Very helpful. Appreciate the replies.

kyfdx

scoobie123 said:

gotcha. many thanks. Very helpful. Appreciate the replies.

BMW resale is always disappointing, if you are the one trading in.. been there.

qbrozen

Nice ones are mid $12s at auction, but those are automatics, plus, dealers typically offer less than auction value. 

andres3

So if a CPO TTS is a fair $40K value I'm not going to see more than $37K trading mine in?

I'd assume the mods might be worth something, or nothing, but it wouldn't matter cause I could put the stock brakes and wheels back on if I had to.

Both would fit on a TTRS

xwesx

andres3 said:

So if a CPO TTS is a fair $40K value I'm not going to see more than $37K trading mine in?

I'd assume the mods might be worth something, or nothing, but it wouldn't matter cause I could put the stock brakes and wheels back on if I had to.

Both would fit on a TTRS

In most cases, performance mods cost lots of money to install, but they don't add any value on trade. They might add value for a private sale. So, once you decide to start modding a car, it's a good idea to keep it a good while.

qbrozen

Performance mods can DECREASE trade value. And, no, you would not get $37k for a car that fetches $40k CPO. In the case of that TTS above, trade would be $35k.