Mazda Protegé

newcar31

That's my point. Given the SAME conditions, the MP3 will always perform better. Heck, I could beat a Corvette in my Protege in the right conditions---like on a snowy day when I have my winter tires on.

newcar31

"What conditions would be favorable to the P5 and not the MP3?"

That's a trick question. There are no conditions that would be favorable to the P5 and not favorable to the MP3.

bluong1

On the snow, P5 tires would be better than MP3 tires because it's narower therefore has more traction. I'm not sure stiffer suspension is very critical on the snow. Could P5 beats MP3 on the snow? May be not, or... ???

mazdafun

The P5 is just more readily available and isn't available in that repulsive shade of orange.

newcar31

"On the snow, P5 tires would be better than MP3 tires because it's narower therefore has more traction."

That's ridiculous. Who does slalom tests in the snow? Maybe tirerack does to showcase their winter tires, but C&D doesn't.

bluong1

minutes ago you said that C&D test conditions is unfair for the MP3 and now you are saying that we should stick to it? Yes? No?

chicagopro

Less filling.

newcar31

"minutes ago you said that C&D test conditions is unfair for the MP3 and now you are saying that we should stick to it? Yes? No?"

I never said the conditions that C&D tested in were "unfair" to the MP3. I said they obviously were tested in different conditions.

"and now you are saying that we should stick to it?"

That doesn't make any sense.

Let me give you a good example:

John Force, funny car driver, pulls an altitude corrected 4.0 second 1/4 mile time at Bandimere International Raceway in Denver. Cruz Pedregon pulls a 3.9 in the quarter mile a week later at Brainerd International Raceway in Minnesota. Based on this information, did Cruz Pedregon "beat" John Force? NO!

I hope this clears things up a bit.

bluong1

In Formula 1, the times for qualification are taken during two days. Each pilot have a same number of trials. They run one after another and never in the same time. The best time to complete one turn of the track by each pilot is considered for ranking and elimination process. The external condition can greatly change during few hours. Does the first pilot beat anyone else?

newcar31

Half the time, I don't even know what you are trying to say.

"minutes ago you said that C&D test conditions is unfair for the MP3 and now you are saying that we should stick to it? Yes? No?"

What in the HECK is that supposed to mean? I am sorry, but I have no clue as to the meaning of that post.

Given that both cars are stock, both are driven by the same driver in the same conditions (ALL things being equal), the MP3 will post a better slalom speed than the P5 EVERY SINGLE TIME. Period. End of story. If you don't agree, well...then...I don't know of a kinder way to say this....but...you're wrong.

the_big_h

nice way to put it todd :-D

bluong1

as I said before: you win. I was saying ridiculous and all the heck of meaningless things, shame on me...

maltb

Maybe to disc/drum?

vocus

Always an argument over here...

maltb

I need some Monty Python about now.

boggse

I thought this was just abuse.

I am sorry I brought it up. Although I didn't really. I never mentioned the MP3, I swear. How about this one, which handles better, a camel or a llama? (SATIRE)

the_big_h

then camel should win, what with its hump (or 2!) on the back to grab onto.

newcar31

llama handles better. A camel has two humps way up high creating a high center of gravity. A llama is smaller and has a lower center of gravity.

anonymousposts

and no hump seating is much more comfortable ... just ask the Civic.

newcar31

win in a fight? A kodiak bear or a lion? I say the bear would whoop the crap out of the lion, yet some folks insist that the lion would win. No way Jose. The bear wins.

My car handles bad now with the winter tires on. The difference between 50 series all seasons and 60 series winter sponges is pretty big. At least it rides better.....

fowler3

can go farther on a tank than the llama. And those humps store fat for times when there's no solid fuel. Llamas are the compact version for short trips.

fowler3

choe13

what makes a car better than any other car in its class, is that it tries to imitate cars one class above while also remaining true to its roots(example exterior dimension, fuel consumption capabilies). The mazda protoge best examplifies this definition being amazingly constructed, looks upscale, its tight handling, balanced steering, fade resistant braking, quality power of its engine, true qualities of more expensive cars one class above. Mazda is well in its way to imitate BMW like sales, as well imitating BMWs philosiphy of the ultimate driving machine(prestigely priced, rear wheel drive car), but in its own nische (low price, and front wheel drive car).

mdaffron

I thought this was the Protege discussion. Maybe y'all should start a "BMW vs. Dromedary" discussion in the "Sedans: Comparisons with Mammals" category.

Meade

mazdafun

It sure is fun when this kicks in.

I took a quick s-curve pretty quickly the other day. I thought the rear was slipping out on me when I remembered it was just the TTL.

dinu01

So how does this thing actually work mazdafun (and others)?

Dinu

boggse

I too would like to know the details of how the TTL works. Mazda used to include an explanation in its 626/MX-6 brochures way back when, but I didn't pay much attention.

boggse

The only description I was able to find was this on mx-3.com:

"The patented Mazda Twin Trapezoidal Link (TTL) independent rear suspension works to deliver some of the benefits of 4-wheel steering, such as quick response when you change lanes or turn corners, but does it without added weight, complexity or cost. TTL automatically maintains the best alignment of the rear tires to the road surface, improving both stability and agility."

Would anyone care to elaborate further?

dinu01

Aha!

I'm as lost as I was before. I'll have to find something so we can understand this better.

Dinu

newcar31

I believe the TTL rear suspension design has an extra link that allows for slight toe changes during hard cornering. I think it is generically called "passive rear wheel steering". Old Honda CRXs and Integra Type-Rs have a similiar passive rear wheel steering setup.

protege_fan

But why has Mazda chosen to use a multi-link beam suspension in the RX-8 as opposed to a TTL that's in the Protege?

newcar31

a beam type suspension, as in the kind used in Jettas, Sentras, Maximas, Caravans, etc.? I don't think Mazda would dare use that type of suspension in their flagship sports car.

boggse

Are usually used to save space. I was unaware that the RX-8 would have one, especially considering it is a rear wheel drive vehicle.

edit: according to Mazdausa.com, the RX-8 will have:

"Double-wishbone/Multi-link (front/rear)"

newcar31

the RX8 is RWD. You can't use the beam type suspension in a RWD car.

protege_fan

www.mazda.ca
Click on the link for the RX-8...click specs...click on the bottom for suspension...you'll see.

"Double wishbone suspension at front
Multilink beam suspension at rear"

Seems to me you can use a multilink beam in a RWD car.

newcar31

it must be a different kind of beam suspension. The beam suspension that I am thinking of is the same kind used in front wheel drive cars. They have a twist beam that runs across the width of the car between the rear wheels. I don't know how you could make this design work with a RWD car. Where would the differential go?

protege_fan

I don't know...The Spec-V also claims to use a multilink beam. Same setup? I dunno??
BTW, I do know the Spec-V is FWD.

the_big_h

is Multilink, ie it's still an INDEPENDENT suspension

it's the word beam that threw you off Mike. Mazda wouldn't dare to cheapen out their flagship sports car with a single/solid live axle rear end.

the_big_h

regarding RX-8's rear suspension:

"For the rear, the Mazda RX-8 employs a new multi-link suspension system with five links per side. The longer links are optimally arranged to maintain correct geometry and keep the tires in steady contact with the road at all times. The coil springs are located below the floor to preserve interior space. Gas-filled mono-tube shocks are used back here, too, as well as a newly developed six-point rubber mount system for the subframe. The result is an impressive rear suspension that provides handling stability, ride comfort and low road noise."

I highly doubt this describes a SOLID BEAM axle setup :-)

protege_fan

My only point is that the Spec-V has been ragged upon b/c it's a "beam" suspension. Now it sounds like it's really an independent suspension.

I claim no knowledge here...just going on what I've read.

meinrad

I've seen alot of people pick on it for being beam but it's a "Multi-Link Beam™ suspension". So that doesn't seem so bad.

There is even a nice little flash thing on the Nissan Site showing how it keeps the tires on the road.

thel

I'm looking at used Proteges and was wondering what the difference/virtues of the 2000 vs. the 2001 models were. I like the look of the 2001 better but I have heard a lot about some sort of clutch chattering (haven't noticed it on my 02 Miata though). Thanks for any input.

newcar31

"Now it sounds like it's really an independent suspension."

Not really. Take a look underneath a car with a solid twist beam axle. When I worked at the oil change joints, this is one of the things I noticed all the time when underneath a car. I found out about the Maxima's solid twist beam rear axle only after seeing it for myself. Maximas didn't used to have this cheap rear suspension design. I am not an expert on suspension geometry, but if you actually look at the suspension of a beam axle vehicle, it doesn't appear to be independent. Like I said before, there is a twist beam that runs between both rear wheels. I don't know how you could call that "independent".

mazdafun

Look up on USPTO.gov for Mazda patents on passive-steering rear suspensions. Sometimes they're described as multi-link set-ups. Yes, they're kind of vague in their descriptions, but they HAVE to supply diagrams and do have to describe how the mechanism works, albeit in sometimes confusing terms. They have several, but they all work on similar principles (some work through torque, some through compression).

In the current Protege, I think torsion on one of the links (I think it's the z-shaped one, not quiet a "Z", but it's got two bends) above a threshold level causes the rear suspension to slightly change its geometry, allowing the rear wheel to toe in or out to tighten your arc. It feels like the rear is slipping out, but then you feel traction again after the TTL has settled into the altered geometry.

After you back off the lateral load, the torsion link brings the rear suspension back in line. I haven't been able to feel this transition.

It's more visible under an MP3 as the active links are painted bright red (or am I thinking about pics of someone's customized Protege they posted?) instead of the regular black.

choe13

well no matter the rear suspension setup discussion going on. We all are aware of mazda cars unique suspension setup(zoom zoom zoom), unlike bland suspension setups of most car companies out there, in addition to further praise mazda cars, companies like Volvo cheapen the architecture suspension setup of their lower cars but tend high engineering setup of their higher models(ie. s40 comparison to s60,80); Mazda uses their unique suspension setup even way down to their lowest car, the protoge. This is excellent thinking of the company, as a first time satisfied buyer of the protoge, i will want to buy the 6, and the car after that which is prob the 9 etc., clearly mazda has made its mark

dinu01

The 00 had a rev-happy 1.8.
The 01 had a not so rev-happy 2.0

I think quality of the interior trim was improved in 01 (especially ES and P5!), along with more sound-proofing material added around the rear wheels.

The 01 should have larger tires.

I have a 2001 ES auto and I'm VERY happy with it.
I will buy a 2000 LX Touring (ES in the US) next year.
Personally I am very impressed with the PRO as this is my first Mazda vehicle. I will always shop Mazda 1st from now on.

Dinu

boggse

They sure sound very similar. I guess if they left room to run the axle shafts, the same design could be used on both. I still don't know why they mention a "beam" on the Canadian site. Weird.

glideslopes

The 1.8 on the 00 is definitely the better engine. The 00 is 100lbs lighter. The 00 is quicker, and stops as well as the 01. The interior on the 01 is more attractive. I prefer the front grill of the 00 still to this day. I prefer the wheel/tire packedge on the 01. The rear disks are not relevant IMO unless you are Michael Schumacher on a daily basis.

I have driven an 01 ES several times, and notice no difference in handling. But, as mentioned the 1.8 in the 00 is a much more willing to rev engine.

I have never thought about trading in my 00 ES 5-Speed since the day it was new.

However, in 15 months there may very well be a 6s in my driveway next to the MPV.

The above comments are opinions only. All standard disclaimers apply.

Mark.

thel

What do you mean by rev-happy? Does the 1.8 have better pull at high RPM? Does it sound better? Or is it just more durable at high RPM? I like the 1.8 in my Miata (7000 RPM redline!), but I don't know how much the two motors are related (me thinks not much).

Thanks again!

ashutoshsm

... that the 00 ES (and other trims) had rear drum brakes, and the 01 onwards ES (only, I think) has 4-wheel disc brakes.

Now, the jury is out on which is really better, but I'm sure someone will be glad to assist you with informed opinions.

boggse

The 1.8L will rev from idle to redline quicker than the 2.0L. I have only driven the 2.0L and the 1.6L. I understand that the 2.0L has better low end torque.