Lexus IS 350 and IS 250

biker4

With the exception of the Prius, the only reason hybrids sell is that the folks buying them don't care about the economics case for them. You can't keep growing sales
based on a flawed business model.

In 2007 when gas is at $3+/gal in the US, the 30% fuel milage gain offered by a diesel IS220d at a very modest premium (less than $1K) over the IS250 will be enough to get people to buy them (if Lexus offers it). While Lexus might make an ISxxxh, its $5K premium over an IS250 will only make sense for those who don't care about the economics of the deal.

Considering that the IS250 is already a piggish 3500lbs, I certainly wouldn't want a 3700lb ISxxxh with no MT regardless of price. Just think about it - that car would weigh 1000lb more than a Civic - which is the same size.

Kirstie_H

Let's not go too far off on tangents. This isn't going to be the next home of the hybrid v diesel (or whatever) argument!

mikegiller

"Just think about it - that car would weigh 1000lb more than a Civic - which is the same size."

:surprise: ummm probably not? The civic is a pretty small car... and the IS is (I dont have the specs on hand right now) no doubt much larger car. So, given all the equipment added in the IS the added weight plus the increased size in the car is more or less uncompromised... Maybe someone wants to go more in depth on this?

lexusguy

Using a hybrid electric with the 3.5L V6, even just pulling it from the RX400, would be good for 380hp and a boat load of torque. I dont think it would be slow. For now they are just going with a V8 though, it will be either an IS460 or IS500. The argument over how well an IS220d would do here is kind of moot, there isnt going to be one here.

dewey

"The argument over how well an IS220d would do here is kind of moot, there isnt going to be one here."

Never say never! If somebody told me a few years ago that a overpriced hatchback that is mainly catered to gas saving geeks would become the hottest car in America, I would say they were nuts!

jrock65

The 2006 IS is 4.7" longer, 3.2" wider, and 0.6" lower than the 2005 Civic.

However, the Civic will probably have more interior space. The Civic has combined legroom of 78.2".

jrock65

The 2006 IS is 4.7" longer, 3.2" wider, and 0.6" lower than the 2005 Civic.

However, the Civic will probably have more interior space. The 2005 Civic has combined legroom of 78.2". The 2005 IS has combined legroom of 72.9". The 2006 GS has combined legroom of 79.9".

biker4

The 06 Civic (as will the next Corolla) will probably be within 2" of exterior IS measurements, be larger inside and have most of the same features that add significant weight yet weigh at least 600lbs less. That's true of most compact luxury entry models - it's just that the IS seems to be at the most piggish end of that scale.

Of course the tale of tape can only be truly judged by a test drive and for that we'll just have to wait some more.

lexusguy

Well you can count on the IS having a larger, heavier engine than the Civic's 4, and I'm willing to bet the IS will be much quieter inside. Customers expect that from a Lexus, not really from a Civic. All of that noise control adds a lot of weight.

maxhonda99

Comparing a Civic to a Lexus IS??? What's your point with this comparison? The 2 cars are as different as night and day!

Okay, the IS is about 600lbs. heavier. Did you bother to explore why the Civic is 600lbs. lighter?

Huh, let's see:
Civic is FWD vs. IS is RWD(This does add considerable weight).
Civic is a 4-cylinder vs. IS is 6-cylinder(adds weight??)
Civic uses thinner metal all around. leaning against a civic will cause dents in the panels.
Despite what you say, the IS has much more features and equipment(which also adds weight).
Sound insulation(adds weight).

"it's just that the IS seems to be at the most piggish end of that scale."

A base 330i weighs in at 3450 without options. The IS350 is supposed to be about 3500lbs. Where does the *piggish* come from?

blueguydotcom

A base 330i weighs in at 3450 without options. The IS350 is supposed to be about 3500lbs. Where does the *piggish* come from?

they're both a good 500-600 lbs overweight. The A4's the worst offender as it feels like it weighs almost 4 grand.

dewey

The sport sedan market is following the same trend as N. American waste lines.

A weight watchers' diet for most sport sedans is a necessity! Substituting aluminum for steel is one solution!

For the sake of fun driving I hope the new and upcoming Civic doesn't become a bloated piece of metal.

carnut11

Hi everyone,

I am new to this board...am looking for a snazzy rear- or all-wheel drive four-door family car. I'm 6'2" and am wondering if any tall drivers have the current IS or are considering the upcoming one?

My wife and I have one small kid and I am beginning to consider the new IS (in addition to the M35). I had an order on a 300C but the worries about Chrysler caused me to cancel it.

Do you think the IS could make a decent family car for a relatively tall driver who does not want front-drive and who likes performance?

I wish the TL were RWD.

dewey

Where does the *piggish* come from?

Two- three decades ago small sport sedans had the following:

6 cylinder engine
RWD
Thick metal

And despite the above they were all nimbler and lighter! And now small sport sedans are supersized to cater to people who hate the whole concept of small!

Dont forget the niche that the IS, BMW 3 series and Audi A4 are meant to serve:
SMALL SPORT SEDAN MARKET (NOT BIG)

Sound insulation? What a frivoulous waste of weight! If you want to pretend you are driving in a cocoon-like bank vault that's fine! Drive a Luxury Sedan!

chris65amg

I just got back from test driving a new 330i. It feels a little heavier than the last generation. However, it is still a competant handler. I generally think that the fact that these sports sedans are getting a little large, but I still think that they don't sacrifice too much sportiness.... yet.

lexusguy

"Do you think the IS could make a decent family car for a relatively tall driver who does not want front-drive and who likes performance?"

..Not really. I think the interior space in the new IS is going to be pretty small. The current car is REALLY tiny inside, and it should get a little bigger than that, but not by all that much. Think Volvo S60 or Audi A4 inside, and not Infiniti G35 or Acura TL.

The M35\x is a good choice, I would also suggest looking at the G35\x depending on your price range.

dewey, unfortunately its no longer 1970. Actually, scratch the unfortunately. Cars are federally mandated to have things like airbags now, among many other things that increase weight. I'd still take a 2006 IS over the best 1970 had to offer in the sports sedan dept., and you know what? I'd obliterate it on the street. The IS, BMW 3 and Audi A4 are entry lux cars, and they are expected to have such things as sound insulation, CD changers, state of the art safety systems, etc. all of these things add weight.

"Sound insulation? What a frivoulous waste of weight! If you want to pretend you are driving in a cocoon-like bank vault that's fine! Drive a Luxury Sedan!"

I think you're in the wrong forum, it sounds like you want a Lancer EVO.

maxhonda99

"And despite the above they were all nimbler and lighter! And now small sport sedans are supersized to cater to people who hate the whole concept of small! "

As Lexusguy pointed out in his last post, you fail to mention alot of the added weight comes from mandated safety equipment or equipment the marketplace demands such as dual front airbags, curtain airbags, fancy stereos with upwards of 10-speakers, automatic climate control, side impact standards, front and rear impact standards, rollover standards, not to mention things like stability control systems. The list goes on and on.

If you want a sports sedan from the 80s why not just go out and buy a used BMW 3-series from the 80s? There are plenty on the market, they are relatively reliable due to lack of electronics, and they can be fixed rather inexpensively!

wayde

The lack of information coming out from Lexus regarding the IS is the most frustrating thing... right after waiting for October 1st that is. Geesh - why can't they start providing new info & updating their website? It's not like they will hurt current IS sales, which are very very low.
Please Lexus, give us more info (pricing, features, option pkgs, etc).

jrock65

It's not just the extra equipment themselves, it's all the electric wiring in the car to power and connect these things. I've read that the weight that electric wiring could add to cars is quite significant.

lexusguy

I found dewey's perfect car. Absolutely no " frivoulous waste of weight" of any kind to be found here.

biker4

Almost forgot about the A4 being the worst offender but its Quattro system is to blame for some of it.

Just think how much better even an IS250 could be if it weighed 3000lbs instead of 3500.

Much of the HP gains that cars have been getting lately have not translated to much performance gains due to weight increases.

dewey

you fail to mention alot of the added weight comes from mandated safety equipment or equipment the marketplace demands such as dual front airbags, curtain airbags, fancy stereos with upwards of 10-speakers, automatic climate control, side impact standards, front and rear impact standards, rollover standards, not to mention things like stability control systems. The list goes on and on.

Fair enough, but what is missing with the above argument is that weight is a key issue for sport sedans. Size may not be a mandatory safety requirement but the market demands that each sport sedan gets bigger with each new generation.

Audi and Jaguar are trying to offset the weight issue with aluminum frames. BMW engines with a higher magnesium content !Unfortunately the aluminum route is an expensive route. But may not be in the future! Aluminum demand decline in the aerospace industry will mean lower aluminum prices(plastics are substituting aluminum).

Buy a lighter 1970' BMW--thanks but no thanks!

The drivetrain/chassis of my current BMW e46 is far superior to prior 3 series models. What I am trying to say is better weight-control combined with the improvements in drivetrain/chassis will produce superior sport sedans.

dewey

Nice car Lexusguy,

but all what is missing are the furry dice on the rear view mirrors!

lexusguy

Thats the Lotus Exige, made for people who think the Elise is for grandmothers.

maxhonda99

"Size may not be a mandatory safety requirement but the market demands that each sport sedan gets bigger with each new generation. "

As you said, *market demands*. You can't mess with the market, otherwise the carmakers lose sales. Right?

"Audi and Jaguar are trying to offset the weight issue with aluminum frames. "

In which price range is this? Because they surely aren't doing it in the entry level luxury market. You're not going to see much aluminum use in this price range because as you even said, aluminum is expensive, and contributing enough aluminum to the structure of cars like the IS350 or BMW 3-series to make a noticeable decrease in curb weight would increase cost to the consumer dramatically. Again at those increased prices, manufacturer's would lose sales.

"Buy a lighter 1970' BMW--thanks but no thanks! "

I said buy a 3-series from the 80s, or early 90's if you wish.

rotoryfan

There is a new IS350 video out on a UK site (I can't post the link here, search to find it)
It lasts for about 2 minutes - exterior (driving and standing) and interior shots.

Cheers

mikegiller

...i hate having to scrounge the internet clueless on search engines trying to find ONE specific site... so if you could, please maybe at LEAST throw in some key words that would relate better to the website as opposed to the 700 other websites there are....?...please?

davidd3

My wife surprised me and popped into our local Lexus dealer today to inquire about the 2006 IS, which I haven't stopped talking about since seeing it at the NY Auto Show in April.

She was told that the first cars will be hitting dealerships in early September, a few weeks ahead of the official Oct. 1 launch date.

My wife explained that we are coming off-lease in mid-September, though we could possibly extend our lease by 1 month to mid-October. She was told that there is already a waiting list of 6 people, each of whom has made a $500 refundable deposit. The sales manager showed my wife the waiting list and she watched as he wrote her name down in the #7 slot. Since the first six people are waiting for the IS350, we are actually #1 on the waiting list for the IS250. My wife told them that she would have to talk to me first before putting down a deposit. They told her that it is a no risk situation. We just tell them as best we can at this point the model (250 or 350; and if 250, RWD or AWD, automatic or manual) and the color(s) we think we want, and they will give us a call when such a car comes in. If for whatever reason we don't want to buy/lease it, they will fully refund our deposit and move on to the next person on the waiting list. They are asking people to select colors from the 2005 IS color choices for now. They expect that most of the current colors will carry over to the 2006 IS, while some new colors might be added.

Before I call the sales manager and pepper him with questions, I would like to have the benefit of anyone else's experience. I have never done the waiting list thing before, but I think that it may make sense for me to do so this time since this car is just coming out around the time I am coming off lease. Is anyone else out there on a waiting list for the 2006IS? If so, does it work in the way I described? Is there anything in particular that I should watch out for or try to nail down now? Since pricing is not yet available and options are not yet known, I suppose that the deal should be subject to negotiating a mutually agreeable purchase price, unless perhaps they would insist on full MSRP for this hot new car. Does anyone have a feel for how pricing will work at first? I am wondering whether and to what extent I might expect a discount off of MSRP and/or financing support if I am one of the first people to buy/lease this new Lexus model.

Another thing - I am taken aback by the huge difference in hp between the IS250 (a 2.5 liter 201hp engine) and the IS350 (a 3.5 liter 310hp engine). I am presently driving a 2003 Infiniti G35 sedan. It has a 3.5 liter 265hp engine, and I believe that it goes 0 to 60 in 6.2 seconds. I am afraid that the IS250 may not feel fast enough to me. The IS350 would surely solve that problem, but I am afraid that the IS350 may be too pricy for me. I have read that the IS350 will do 0 to 60 in less than 6 seconds. But I have not yet seen acceleration information for the IS250. Does anyone know? The 2005 IS300 has a 3.0 liter 215hp engine capable of going 0 to 60 in 7.4 seconds with an automatic transmission. I view that as being adequate but not great acceleration for a sports sedan. As I understand it, the 2006 IS250 will have, of all things, a smaller engine (2.5 liter i/o 3.0 liter) with less hp (201 i/o 215) than the not-so-powerful outgoing model. Based on these numbers, I suppose that the 2006 IS250 with RWD and automatic transmission will be a bit slower than the 2005 IS300 with RWD and automatic transmission. Maybe a 0 to 60 time in the high 7s could be expected. Does that sound logical?

stickguy

your times seem reasonable, but it is possible that the 250 makes better use of the power (don't forget the tranny cmoes into play too, along with gearing), so the real world performance might not be any slower than the 300. But, almost certainly yhr 250 will be slower than the G35. You would have to decide if it is good enough, but I doubt it will be "too slow" for normal driving.

As to the list, yes, that is exactly how it should work. But, expect to pay MSRP to be such an early adopter. Your only hope for a deal might be if no one else is waiting on a 250, and they get a bunch right away. Not likely, so figure close or at MSRP.

Also, don't expect any favorable lease terms right away. You might find on a lease that you can get something much more expensive (M35, a bimmer, etc.) for the same lease price!

In any case, put down the 500. At least it will give you a no-risk option. Just be prepared with a plan "B"

lexusguy

I would expect low 7s for the manual, and maybe 7.7 for the RWD automatic and as high as 8+ for the AWD. Its not going to be particularly quick, especially compared to the G35, which can now do it in the high 5s. The IS350 on the other hand should be mighty fast, possibly 5.5 or even below, thanks to more horses and an extra gear than the G. Im guessing prices on the IS350 will start in the mid to high 30s and extend into the low 40s. As stickguy said, expect MSRP.

What do you think of the competition, such as the Volvo S60R, or another G? Both received a freshening for 2005.

Kirstie_H

You can post a link to other sites, just not directly other automotive forums.

davidd3

Thanks for your helpful feedback, stickguy.

I think that acceleration in the high 7s will be good enough for me. Certainly adequate, but not grin inducing. Last weekend I drove my father-in-law's 2004 BMW 325ci with automatice transmission. I believe that it does "only" mid-8s (slow for a sports sedan), yet it still felt peppy and energetic.

This may be the first time for me to have to pay MSRP. I got my G35 when it first came out and Infiniti gave me a discount of about $1,200 (for being a repeat customer, or so the salesperson said). And I understand that BMW dealers are already knocking $1,200 to $1,500 off the new 3, which just came out in May. Anyway, if I will have to pay MSRP or thereabouts for the new IS, it will definitely have to be the 250 for me. I couldn't afford a car that stickers for 40+ without a steep discount coupled with financing support. We put on close to 20k miles per year. With that kind of mileage, putting no money down, and capitalizing the sales, tax, acquisition fee, etc., monthly lease payments get very high. I'm paying $574/month on my G35 lease. For me, leasing is not soooo much cheaper than buying.

My plan B as of now would be the 2006 BMW 325i. However, my wife had quite a number of nits with the interior. Among other things, she she found the driver's seat to be too firm. The M35 would be quite a stretch, I think. That's another 40+ car. Also, it seems soooo big to me.

I will likely have a lenthy discussion with the sales manager, put down a deposit, and report back if I have anything newsworthy.

davidd3

Thanks for the helpful feedback, lexusguy.

How do you think the 250 will be priced, typically equipped, w/o navi and w/o AWD? Low 30s???

Paying MSRP will be a major bummer. I've never done it before. I even got about $1,200 off on my G35 when it first came out. And I have read on another forum that people are already getting $1,200 to $1,500 off on the new BMW 3 that just came out in May. How about the Lexus GS, which also just came out a few months ago? I haven't yet researched it, but aren't Lexus dealers discounting them at all? Maybe whatever is the case with the GS will be what we should expect for the IS. Or is your point that people on waiting lists to get the first cars should always expect to pay MSRP, while people who buy later from dealer stock will gradually do better and better than MSRP?

The 2006 G35 still basically looks the same as my 2003 G35. I love my G car, but I want something new and fresh (which is certainly what the G was when I got it in the Spring of 2003). The new IS nicely fits the bill this time around. One of the benefits of leasing is changing cars every 3 years. I have no idea about the Volvo. If for whatever reason I don't get the new IS, I will probably end up getting the 2006 BMW 325i. My wife has some nits with the interior though, which is why I'm betting that the new IS will be our next car.

anythngbutgm

I'm not in the financial position to plunk down 40g's on an IS350. Nor would I. For that money, a loaded TL would fit the bill perfectly, as would a 325i (my other choice). Now that I hear Lexus is taking orders on the 06 IS, I'll be heading to the dealer this weekend to get on the list. Come Dec 1st, I will be ready to drive the IS250 manual, and if it disappoints (which I don't believe it will) I will be ready anyways to drive the 325.

Until this point I have driven the TSX which was quick and darty with enough power to satisfy and the typical Honda shifter (some of the best IMO), and the TL which in Automatic form :sick: was blazingly quick and quite agile, but really felt like a BIG car to me. I want RWD this time, and I want an interior that knocks my socks off every time I enter. Both of the above meet that criteria 50%. I want the overall package and I am confident the IS will deliver.

Question: Also on my list is the C-class, S40 T5 and maybe the A4. The G is not on my list because I am not a fan of the interior and the exterior styling is kinda bland, but the powertrain rocks! Any other choices I may have missed? :confuse:

Thanks in advance. :shades:

kyfdx

I like the new A4 with the 2.0T and Quattro....... Not cheap, though.. It seems like a lot more car than the C-Class or S40 T-5...

blueguydotcom

Agreed. The A4 is a darn nice car compared to the C and Volvo. I really love the interior feel of Audi/VW cars...lightyears beyond everybody else in my opinion.

September/October doesn't seem so far away for the IS350 now.

anythngbutgm

Does the 2.0 still have the sludging or coil pack issues plaguing the VAG? I think the interior is excellent and the safety ratings are top notch, but the reliability scares the begeezus out of me. I actually like the A3 alot, but it's only FWD. :sick: ... for now.

kyfdx

It has only been out since January, so I doubt you'll find any history on it..

I would never buy an Audi... only lease.. Same goes for Saabs...

anythngbutgm

Saab is a hopeless shell of a car maker. Wouldn't recommend one to my worst enemy. Thanks for the advice on not buyong the Audi. I think I'm on that same page as you are.

davidd3

I don't think you missed anything. I have limited the playing field to 6 cylinder engines, which I believe deliver smoother quieter acceleration as compared to 4 cylinder engines. I am also leery about the reliability of German cars. I have owned nothing but Japanese cars (Infiniti, Acura and Honda) for many years and have had absolutely no problems with them. MB is one of the worst these days for reliability. So I'm staying away from the C-Class, which is probably too pricy anyway after you add to it what should come standard on a 30k+ car. Also, whenever the auto mags do a comparison, the C-Class does no better than the middle of the pack. I have an impression that BMW is somewhat better than Audi when it comes to reliability.

I share your confidence that the new IS will deliver the total package.

blueguydotcom

The 2.0 is a rock solid engine...far better in my opinion than any other engine made by any other manufacturer. Solid, strong, easily tunable...it runs rings around BMW's and Infiniti's 6s.

anythngbutgm

"Solid, strong, easily tunable...it runs rings around BMW's and Infiniti's 6s."

Wow, them's fightin words! :P

maximus_gti

Am I the only one that seems to think Audi interiors suck? I mean they are never pleasent looking to me. They just seem dull and blend. IMO lexus has a lot better interiors than audi. I drive a VW GTI and its interior is way nicer than the audi.

I also don't agree with dotcom's statement about the FSI audi engine, its a really nice engine, but so is the infiniti's and the BMWs. Sure its tunable, but it doesn't at all run rings around those lol. But that's my opinion.

Anyways, I can't wait to testdrive the IS, looks like an awesome machine, just wish the 2.5l engine had more juice. Maybe later they will offer the IS350 with manual and AWD.

blueguydotcom

Am I the only one that seems to think Audi interiors suck? I mean they are never pleasent looking to me. They just seem dull and blend. IMO lexus has a lot better interiors than audi. I drive a VW GTI and its interior is way nicer than the audi.

No way! Lexus interiors remind me of a Buick - it's all plush and soft and lacking anything angled/hard/teutonic. I want an interior that's cold, impassive and reminds of Darth Vader's bathroom. I don't want soft seats, anything too rounded and certainly as few LCD readouts as humanly possible. And for the love of God, absolutely no wood trim anywhere in the car!

I also don't agree with dotcom's statement about the FSI audi engine, its a really nice engine, but so is the infiniti's and the BMWs. Sure its tunable, but it doesn't at all run rings around those lol. But that's my opinion.

In my experience Infiniti/Toyota flat out makes lousy engines. No power, no urgency and nothing approaching fun. Infiniti/Nissan's 3.0 VQ was a work of art. The 3.5 is rough riding, has no rev range and all told is just not an engine I want to be around daily. BMW's inline 6 is smooth and you can run them high and hard. But it lacks torque and is as peaky as a Honda 4/6.

Nope, gimme the 2.0. Tap the gas and it goes. No sound, no clatter and nothing remotely signaling the thing is just about to tap redline. Smooth, constant, quiet power. They took the 1.8T and made it 10x better. If only that engine were available in a 3 series.

Anyways, I can't wait to testdrive the IS, looks like an awesome machine, just wish the 2.5l engine had more juice. Maybe later they will offer the IS350 with manual and AWD.

Maybe they will. I can't hold out years for that. Given the pics they've got so far of the lexus interior, it's not a place i'd like to call home. The pics I've seen of the black interior - i wish i could post a link but forum linking is prohibited - make it seem smooth, soft, monochromatic and dominated by a big old screen. hopefully this won't be so on every car.

chris65amg

Nissan has pimped that 3.5L engine to almost every car in the Nissan/Infiniti lineup. OK, I'm exaggerating, but they use it a lot. It gets to the point when you drive a Maxima and then an Altima 3.5 and you wonder what the difference is. Yeah, yeah, I know that the 3.5L makes 10 more hp. in the Maxima, but I'm not exactly estatic about that particular engine. It was great in the 350Z but it is overused.

All of the Lexi I have driven have had a creamy smooth engine. Maybe it would be good to inject more sport in the form of noise into this next IS?

""No way! Lexus interiors remind me of a Buick - it's all plush and soft and lacking anything angled/hard/teutonic. I want an interior that's cold, impassive and reminds of Darth Vader's bathroom. I don't want soft seats, anything too rounded and certainly as few LCD readouts as humanly possible. And for the love of God, absolutely no wood trim anywhere in the car!""

Oh phooey. Kids these days :P
I like wood trim, and I usually like Lexus interiors a lot. Especially the LS. However, the latest iteration of the GS has let me down a tiny bit. I think that they may offer metallic trim as an option instead of wood, but I'm just guessing. If an automaker can pull off a Darth Vadar's Bathroom kind of style well then I'd buy it. But right now only Mercedes does that very well :P

blueguydotcom

http://www.verdictoncars.com/jsp/vocmain.jsp?lnk=901&id=79&description=Lexus%20IS%20350

kyfdx

Interesting..

My impressions..

1) This car really isn't all that far off in looks from the old IS300.. The back is a little cleaner looking, and the way it sweeps up by the rear doors is better, but no one will mistake it for a different car..

2) In IS250 form, it won't be any more popular than the old one... Switching to a V-6 is going to hurt them, in trying to steal BMW buyers..

3) If the IS350 is $40K+, I predict the car will be just as big a bust as the last one... Size will hurt them... The back seat looks smaller than a 3-series..

I sort of liked the IS300.. I was hoping for a big leap forward, but I don't think this is it..

I've been wrong before, though..

regards,
kyfdx

anythngbutgm

The biggest improvment over the IS300 has got to be the interior. Worlds better than the old one which I think made a Toyta Corolla CE look like an ES300! It was WAY too youth oriented (maybe it was intentional) while the new one is much, much more grown up. And the goofy clear F&F taillight treatment seems to have driven off with the old one thankfully. This new IS is a 200% improvment over the outgoing one, and I am counting the days till I get my test drive!

P.S. I don't expect prices to crack 40k, even a loaded IS350. Unless there is some dealer gouging going on. :mad: I want to see a fully optioned IS250 with the 6speeder at around 32g tops. Heck an outgoing '05 330i sedan is not much more than that (with incentive pricing)!

kevin13

Many will probably disagree, but you should drive the Subaru Legacy GT also. I drove the new 325 and though it handles well, it was pokey when compared to the 330 or subaru. Subaru doesn't handle quite as well, but seemed fine for typical driving and it is very fast. You can pick them up for close to invoice.

blueguydotcom

He should. The Gt for 25-26k is a steal. If they'd add a 6 speed and improve the interior a bit that car would be super hard to pass up given the cost and abilities. Modders on Scoobie sites are putting down well over 300 hp and getting it to stick like glue.

Really for me the problems come with the interior - golly it's bad. The engine's noisy as hell too. But I can probably live with that.