Lexus IS 350 and IS 250

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Comments

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Lexus has proven they can do pretty much anything better than the Germans except make a car someone looks forward to driving, and make a car with unmatched style (save for the original Lexus coupe, which Germany was clearly overwhelmed by, and stands as an abhorration in terms of style,inside and out).

    One question, how was Germany overwhelmed by a car that flopped around like a fish out of water past year 3 and was shoved off the market by the CLK in later years, so much so to the point Lexus abandoned the concept for a ladybug of a replacement? I think the original SC was a great car too, but what you state is overexaggeration at best.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Lexus lied ??? How so ? If sales of the new GS is anything to go by, then they are doing exactly what they promised. Buyers are buying up the new GS in droves.... Sales of the GS continues to outpace its M competitor released at about same time. Does that constitute failure ? If you create a product which sells pretty well in your market space, how can you criticize it ? Afterall, the GS was not designed/targeted to you, Wale. It is hitting the mark with its target audience and that's what success is. Lexus is in the market to make money, right ?

    Every carmaker is in the business of making money, not just Lexus. What Wale_bate is saying is that the GS was billed as a 5-Series fighter and it doesn't live up to that. This has nothing to do with sales and making money. This is supposed to be a discussion about the cars, not all that Lexus/Toyota/sales/business stuff that seems to be the end-all of any Lexus discussion. You saying that the GS is outselling the Infiniti M means what? Nothing to anyone who care about a sportier car. Actually that the GS is selling means nothing unless it can maintain that, since sales are so important to you. The M came from no where and is already a sales contender in the class and it wears the sport badge on its sleeve, if anything that is more impressive than the GS being hot because the GS already had somewhat of a following to begin with.

    M
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "It is pure fantasy expecting an IS350 to be priced at $35K. Get real."

    I think that the IS350 will start somewhere around there.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Thanks Merc. You about hit it.

    BTW, the GS is selling because it's a new model. Anybody got real anniversary numbers to chew on? Like year one of this generation to year one of the previous? I'd like to see those. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that adjusted for market conditions the car hasn't gained any significant ground. Krispy Kreme will be fine.

    Max, I have patiently, graciously and properly stated all the way along that final judgement is reserved for delivered product. So why bother to ask about driving it? This is all paper speculation.

    Here's the point, before I return to lurk mode:
    Our Lexusite crowd has seen pictures of the car, and based on styling, dubbed it worthy of Lexusation, and that appears to be more than enough. I reference such ludicrous comments as being "embarassed" to be seen in the current model, when it shares mostly common styling elements with the RX, right down to clear lenses on the tail lights, which presumably doesn't embarass anyone. Why not? Well presumably, again, because it's appointed in true Lexus cream-puff style, and offers a typical Lexusish gadget-filled yet sonambular experience. When the discussion turns to perfomance, they all refer to the 350, which is not the B&B model, but the HiPo iteration, and yet still doesn't come with the requisite HiPo hardware even as an option. The replacement for the existing unit is the 250, and on paper, fails to inspire any who know first hand the first thing about the existing model. I am one of the very few in here who has such intimate knowledge, and therefore, IMO, in a somewhat better position to speculate than most. There's nothing there online or in print that suggests any kind of superior experience to the existing car. It looks a bit better to me, but certainly not in any groundbreaking or original way, and in the process has grown in size and heft, which are not performance enhancing gains in any book.

    We were told time and again by Lexus that they, in an intense effort to rejuvinate the marque, and shed the dowdy, Buickesque image (their words, not mine) was dead serious about performance and sport and that these new sedans would prove that. The only thing they've delivered so far is more of the same sedate Lexus experience with a pricey engine/trim option that enhances 0-60.

    Thus far, with regard to delivering on the promises made, to paraphrase Peter Sellers: "new models like television on wedding night: not necessary."

    As always, with regard to th IS, we shall see.

    [lurk mode on]
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 267,512
    Are you really in "lurk mode", if you keep posting comments? ;)

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  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Sssh, I'm lurking.

    One of these days, kyfdx, we're gonna meet up. First round's on me, you wiseacre.
    ;-]
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I love the hyperbole in a sentence such as this:

    "You saying that the GS is outselling the Infiniti M means what? Nothing to anyone who care about a sportier car."

    So the GS is outselling the M means nothing ? Like I said, what exactly is the purpose of a car company ? Is it to sell cars, or to pander to purists many of whom cannot afford the car they bash, or won't buy it if it sells for $0 ?. Please find something better to say than to continue to spew this puritan stuff.... The GS is doing very well despite its newness. All cars get refreshed so what's to bash the GS' redesign as the sole reason for its success... Does it ever cross your minds that it meets its intended target's needs ??? Or everything must be measured by your criteria....

    "The M came from no where and is already a sales contender in the class and it wears the sport badge on its sleeve, if anything that is more impressive than the GS being hot because the GS already had somewhat of a following to begin with"

    And it is Lexus' fault that the M had no following in the first place ? Good thing Infiniti improved on the previous M, Lexus also improved on its previous gen GS as well. BTW, if the market craves for sporty driving as you all argue, and the M is sportier than the GS as you claim, why is it not outselling the GS ??? Already, many of you are writing off the IS which have yet to be fully spec-ed out and/or test driven ! If you ain't buying, why bash ? Lexus is luxury first, everything else is secondary. That has been their business model, which has been successful to date. So why change a winning formula ? Would you ???
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    "It is pure fantasy expecting an IS350 to be priced at $35K. Get real."

    I think that the IS350 will start somewhere around there.


    Can you tell me how many 300+HP luxury sedans sell for $35K here in the US ?
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "I think most of us complaining about weight would point to all players in this market. Anything over 3000 lbs is way too much. 2700-2800 lbs should be more than enough.

    BTW, the WRX and Evo are ratty, econo cars. they're little more than compact cars with awd and turbo engines...no refinement, no balance, no thought given to supplying drivers with anything beyond massive power. no thanks."

    Everything is over 3000 lbs. in this segment, so what's the point in complaining about it?? Just about everyone want's a sports sedan as well as keep their luxo touches and safety features. Guess what...it adds weight. That's why I bring up the WRX and Lancer Evo. If you took a IS350, added a manual, and take out the majority of the soo called luxo frills, the WRX STi and Evo are basically what comes closest in today's marketplace. You can call the Evo and STi ratty econo boxes, but if you took a IS350 and tried to lighten it by about 500lbs., you would end up with the refinement and ratty-ness of a Evo or STi.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Lexusguy,

    I cannot convince anybody about my views on luxury pretensions. Maybe I am in the wrong continent( most Europeans would understand me)

    Why the misconception? Semantics! When I say "NO LUXURY" I dont mean low quality and "flimsy fit and finish". Spartan understated elegance is not luxury. Spartan understated elegance is what I seek( i.e. AUdi A4 without the ostenatious wood-trim)

    Everytime you read a N. American auto rag you hear the same silly complaints that Audi/BMW are too spartan and non-luxurious, especially compared to Japanese luxury models. In my eyes that is a benefit not a liability.

    So why not a WRX:

    The ludicrous rear spoiler which has not much functional use except to flaunt the styling that attracts people with adolescent hormonal imbalances . I am a bit beyond those years.

    Once you owned a BMW and Audi you cannot accept the flimsy interior fit and finish of a WRX.

    I
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    This room sounds like the Mazda6 room before it was introduced. it was supposed to be holy grail of sport sedans and was gonna take the market by storm. It didn't.

    Guess we'll just have to wait and see here too.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    and the M is sportier than the GS as you claim, why is it not outselling the GS ???

    Do you honestly think that the upcoming IS is a superior car because during its intro months it will outsell the G35?

    Do you honestly think that sales volume dictates excellence?

    If that is the case you are not a auto buff but a statistics buff!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well, the Mazda6 isnt the product that the Mazda3 is. The 3 makes the compacts from the Japanese big boys look years out of date. The 6 is a decent enough car, but Accord and Altima are better, and Camry is of course untouchable.
  • billinsobebillinsobe Member Posts: 47
    OK! I'm in the market for a new car and I've been going back and forth about what I want. Is it going to be the Acura RL, Infiniti M, Lexus GS?? I've been going crazy!!!

    We'll I've finally broken down and put a deposit on a IS350. I think it's got a great mix of the features I'm looking for while still being rather sporty (not to mention it should save me a few $1000). I'm hoping it's going to be a great car.

    Anyway. I'm courious to know what kind of sound system the current IS has? How's it sound? As everyone is probably aware Lexus is being pretty tight-lipped about the new IS. Is it going to have Mark Levinson surround sound like the GS? Sound is really important to me, I can't drive a beautiful car with horrible sound. If that's the case I'm back to square 1.

    Second. Has anyone head anything about available colors? My dealer says they really don't know much other then they should be coming in September. Keeping my fingers crossed that they offer it in Glacier Frost Mica. LOVE THAT COLOR.

    Any help anyone could give me would be greatly appriciated!

    Thanx!
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "Can you tell me how many 300+HP luxury sedans sell for $35K here in the US?"

    For the record, I said about 3 months ago that I think the IS350 base price will be around $36,000.

    As for your question, the 298hp G35 starts at $31,360 in the US, including destination. Two horses shy of the 300 mark.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Dewey:

    See that's the problem.... As much as I love cars and all, I am not blind to the reality of the business side. The GS is a success in sales and in popularity among its peers. I test drove both the new GS and the new M35. As much as I loved the M more than the GS, I am not blind to the strengths of the latter, while I appreciate the strengths of the M as well. It is when you become one-sided claiming *sport* is the only thing that matters, that I disagree with. Both the M and the GS are luxury sedans. That one is more sporty is just that. The GS is far more luxurious than the M. We all get to appreciate what we like over what we need....
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Gee... only 1 car, the G35 coupe.

    And even then, Infiniti cannot sell the car higher than that otherwise the car will tank in the market. Lexus has earned the right to premium pricing and that's what they'll charge for the new IS. Guess what, they'll sell every single IS brought here to the NA market for the next several years when coupled with a coupe and the hi-po version (IS460/IS500). Continously freshened with new engines every 18 months a la BMW. That's partly what Lexus refers to as being BMW-like in their new business model. Not just about BMW-like performance....
  • lmnop93103lmnop93103 Member Posts: 5
    zenons and moonroof as options on the IS350?...just doesnt sound right...at least not smart...which takes me to ponder the secretness as some of you have mentioned on the forum concerning the options on the IS. I hope they are setting potential buyers up for something completely unique. I agree with the OAK, man doesnt live by performance alone...but really, bmw performance on Pacific Coast Highway...or a Mark Levingston system and Navi on the IS?
    also...has it been confirmed that SMG will be available this fall for the 3 series? Was it mentioned here? i know what you are thinking...why buy a 3 if its not stick...im getting married soon... ;)
  • glenfordglenford Member Posts: 138
    "we can expect to see the new line-up in showrooms generating around 165kW (221 hp) for the 2.5"

    This would actually be news, if believable, and good news, to boot. 201 has been reported so long, I was just about giving up my hope that they'd boost the spec as things got closer. I want to believe it. Thanks for posting. Tim
  • waydewayde Member Posts: 198
    how many people here actually have deposits down for the new IS?
    I'm thinking of putting one down next week... wish Lexus would start releasing more info.
    Heck, if they are expecting cars on the lots in September (a few weeks before the Oct 1 official on-sale date) then that would mean they would have to be in production now, or starting soon, to get them on the ship to get here in time.
    What's up Lexus? You listening??
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The IS will definitely offer an ML system as an option. Unfortunately I cant tell you what its going to sound like. ML designs each system specifically for each car, so it wont sound exactly like the ES, GS, or LS systems. You can rest assured though that it will most likely be best in class. Only the awesome Linn system in the new Aston Martin is a match for Mark Levinson.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Don't get your deal. What are you disagreeing with me about? So you think the base price of the IS350 will be way above $36k?

    BTW, the G35 sedan also has a 298 hp version, not just the coupe.

    "The GS is far more luxurious than the M."

    Not in my experience. The GS is more refined than the M, but by no means is it "far" more luxurious.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    So the GS is outselling the M means nothing ? Like I said, what exactly is the purpose of a car company ? Is it to sell cars, or to pander to purists many of whom cannot afford the car they bash, or won't buy it if it sells for $0 ?. Please find something better to say than to continue to spew this puritan stuff.... The GS is doing very well despite its newness. All cars get refreshed so what's to bash the GS' redesign as the sole reason for its success... Does it ever cross your minds that it meets its intended target's needs ??? Or everything must be measured by your criteria....

    You'll never get it. Sales are just one thing and every one sells cars, and most cars are hot when they're brand new so that the GS is "selling" means nothing because its just like the M, E, 5 and other big sellers in the class, its selling. What I and Wale_bate were talking about are the other objectives that Lexus stated for the GS, being a 5-Series fighter. You're asking me to say something else, but all you say is sales, sales, sales.....I mean you really should take your own advice here. No one is talking about the GS' sales. I guess the part of your post about someone not being able to afford a GS and/or not buying one if it were very cheap is directed at me? Pity, even more evidence that you only have one thought process. Whatever doesn't jive with the usual Lexus sales rhetoric, it goes that route....

    The GS was a big seller in 1998 and 1999 also, but dropped off the charts afterwards, yet you seem to forget this. Initial sales mean nothing if the car is forgotten past model year 3. It is far to early to call the car a sales success completely after 4 months of being the market.

    You ask why would they change a winning formula? My gawd Oac where have you been since 1998 or 2001? The GS and IS have anything but a winning formula, thats why they're changing them, or least in Lexus' corporate brain they think they are in order to chase BMW only to produce (in the GS' case) more of the same. This "winning formula" you speak of is the reason why Lexus gets no respect from anyone that cares about how a car drives and looks, only the over 50 set that loves LS430s and ES330s drool about Lexus. If Lexus is going to tout all this nonsense about BMW then they're going to have to change something if not this is what you'll get on the board over here as opposed to our other favorite board where the Lexus blinders are worn all the time.

    BTW, I haven't written off the IS, but then again, all the harping on here about the IS350's lack of a manual tranny seemed to go over your head too.

    Wale_bate is saying the same thing OAC:

    "We were told time and again by Lexus that they, in an intense effort to rejuvinate the marque, and shed the dowdy, Buickesque image (their words, not mine) was dead serious about performance and sport and that these new sedans would prove that. The only thing they've delivered so far is more of the same sedate Lexus experience with a pricey engine/trim option that enhances 0-60."

    This is what Lexus is saying not him or I, and so far nothing. We'll see if the IS changes that because the GS didn't. Its only a big hit with the existing Lexus crowd, and that wasn't Lexus' sold objective, but it is "sellling" to them at least.

    M
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    You and Wale_ can paraphrase Lexus' claims all you want, there are more than one interpretation one can give to these quotes. Take the GS430. This is as sporty as it gets. It is very competitive against all its competitors. Even the IS300 is not that bad, it's failure has more to do with poor image/branding, lack of attention, poor marketing, small-ish interior, etc....It was better suited as its original - Toyota Alteeza. The new IS is all grown up, and should carve its own niche in the sector.

    So I ask you this: what if the new GS beats the crap out of the 5-series in performance and handling, would that put BMW out of business of selling thousands of 530/545 ??? Of course not. So what's the point you and others are making about Lexus' promise that was not delivered. Its not like Lexus will suddenly obliterate its competition even if it builds a far superior machine. There is a market for everyone, and each has their strengths and weaknesses. Infiniti, despite its obvious target to BMW in buiding sporty sedans/coupes has failed to dislodge BMW from the performance, handling and YES, sales positions. Without a competitive and respectable Q, Infiniti will never make it to the big time of lux marque brands. This is the lofty perch occupied by the likes of Lexus, MB, BMW. So I'll repeat myself and state that Lexus' winning formula is *luxury-first*. This is their bread-and-butter. If you don't like it, tough !
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Can you tell me how many 300+HP luxury sedans sell for $35K here in the US ?

    G35 6 mt 31k.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    "we can expect to see the new line-up in showrooms generating around 165kW (221 hp) for the 2.5"

    This would actually be news, if believable, and good news, to boot. 201 has been reported so long, I was just about giving up my hope that they'd boost the spec as things got closer. I want to believe it. Thanks for posting. Tim


    http://www.lexus.ca/lexus/experience/en/home/vehicles/specs/BK262T2006/specs_features.jsp?- model=BK262T&year=2006

    Sorry it's not real news; it's salesman lies to keep people from buying a competitor. The IS250 has 201 hp per lexus
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Here is an excerpt...

    "The latest IS also features a twin-chamber airbag for front occupants - a world first on a production car. This set-up's new 'omni-support concept' means two front airbags open together in an accident. They form a V-shaped indentation, capturing the driver and passenger's head and shoulders, spreading the load and reducing the chance of injury.

    The all-new IS is so far ahead of its predecessor that it could have been given another name. Unlike previous models from the company, it certainly looks the part and handles superbly, while offering impeccable comfort and quality as only Lexus can. The German competition should be very worried."


    You can read the rest in the link below

    http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/previe...exus_is250.html
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well I guess there really isn't anything else to say about this I guess because you'll never get that sales are not the end all in the automotive market. If you seriously think that the current IS300's failure is due to poor image/branding, lack of attention, and poor marketing, which by the way are all basically the same thing, then you're truly blinded by Lexus and/or don't understand any part of the luxury market past the LS430's segment.

    The current IS300 flopped because of a lack of a manual tranny upon introduction, not only a smallish, but un-Lexus interior, meaning it looks more old-Toyota than Lexus and the biggest reason (which your post support completely), people who buy performance don't shop Lexus in the first place. That is the biggest reason why the car failed. It isn't the IS300's poor image that killed it, its Lexus' poor image when it comes to the enthusiast that killed the IS300.

    Lexus' formula as you call it, luxury being first is fine, but that isn't what the IS buyer will be looking for. You don't see that? If you want luxury first in this segment, Lexus has a ES330 on the same showroom floor.

    You're right, Infiniti hasn't taken the overall spot that BMW has, but the concept of that happening is at the very least arguable in the 3 and 5-Series segments, meaning they've come much closer to their stated objectives for sporty cars than Lexus has, by far. Of course as a brand they aren't going to topple BMW totally. Lexus on the other hand promised something new in the sport department with the GS and all they did was give the GS430 the "most restrictive stability control system on the market".

    One minute its Lexus will do just that, "obliterate" the competition, when the competition is MB, yet when it comes to BMW all you offer here is excuses as to why they can't do the same to BMW.

    M
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I'll put in my last bit...

    "...luxury being first is fine, but that isn't what the IS buyer will be looking for. You don't see that? ..."

    Shall I remind you, my dear Merc1, what Lexus represents ? the *luxury* arm of Toyota. If the prospective IS buyer forgot that, then that's their choice. Guess its easy to forget that mission started in 1989 and continued till today. So if you drink the koolade from Denny Clements on the blah about BMW, and extrapolate this to the new IS, then you are not up to speed on the history and purpose of Lexus. Lexus will not abandon their true strengths and biggest differentiators - luxury, refinement, quality and reliability, backed up with excellent customer service. If you cannot differentiate your product in a market, you don't succeed. These are attributes that propelled Lexus to the luxury leadership in the NA market. This is the winning formula I allude to....

    BTW, if BMW and Infiniti are so much about sport and performance, how is it that most of the cars they sell are equipped with slush boxes ? In fact, there are no MT on the new M, which you claim wears sport on its sleeve. Does that not violate the first rule of an enthusiast/car purist ? Shouldn't all BMW and Infiniti be fire-breathing, MT-equipped, stripped econo-boxes since they emphasize sport over luxury ? The reality is that these cars all play in the *luxury* market, as does Lexus, and lean towards one or the other - sport or luxury. The market wants both. Lexus offers, imo, the best of both worlds with appropriate compromises.

    To each his/her own....
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Sorry Oac, but that sounds like well thought out excuse. You keep talking about a winning formula for the Lexus brand and yet the previous GS dropped out of sight very quickly and current IS flopped completely. How is that part of a winning formula? What you don't get is that this formula you speak of only works on the RX, LS and ES. Sure the GS is selling strongly 4 months out the gate, like the previous one did, but it didn't hit the target as a sports sedan, like Lexus said it would. No one is asking Lexus to abandon their "strengths" as you call them, only to expand them. Who cares about customer service in this discussion? Boring.... You act like no one else is capble of offering what Lexus does. Yes they do get the highest marks in the areas you mention, but other makes aren't treating their customer like crap either, and they provide a better driving experience too boot. If you really want to look at that further, Infiniti is nearly as good as Lexus in any of those irrelevent rhetoric-laced areas, yet they smoke Lexus in the fun department. You're trying to apply all that theory surrounding the LS430 to the IS350 and this segment and it simply doesn't apply. You mean to tell me Lexus can't offer a truly sporty GS or IS without messing up all their awards and congrats for their stellar: "luxury, refinement, quality and reliability, backed up with excellent customer service."?? If not that means Lexus is a one trick pony. What does any of this have to do with actual driving I'll never know.

    The fact that BMW offers a manual in all their cars except the 7-Series should tell you how different they are from Lexus which doesn't have the sense to offer one in their most potent IS. Infiniti does at least offer a manual in the G35. Even Mercedes offers one in the C350 and Acura in their TL. Lexus says the IS350 is a sports sedan and yet they force an automatic on everyone that wants the big engine. Makes no sense to anyone not caught up on Lexus' brand mantra.

    "If you cannot differentiate your product in a market, you don't succeed."

    Well if that is true, the current IS300 was too different the and previous GS wasn't different enough.

    There is a clear double standard here Oac, you seem to shout anything Clements has to say about certain Lexus models like the SC, LS etc., but when it comes to BMW its "koolade".

    Lexus doesn't even come close to offering the best compromise between luxury and sport, not even.

    M
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    In fact, there are no MT on the new M, which you claim wears sport on its sleeve. Does that not violate the first rule of an enthusiast/car purist ? Shouldn't all BMW and Infiniti be fire-breathing, MT-equipped, stripped econo-boxes since they emphasize sport over luxury ? The reality is that these cars all play in the *luxury* market, as does Lexus, and lean towards one or the other - sport or luxury. The market wants both. Lexus offers, imo, the best of both worlds with appropriate compromises.

    Huh? The M3 has a 6 speed available. The M5 and M6 are slated for them after americans moaned about the 7 speed SMG.

    Are you saying the 7 speed smg is a sign of luxury? Have you read reviews of the m5 and m6 with smg? The cars are hardly luxury vehicles..they're described as exotics with reachable price tags. Here's a bit from Edmunds' review of the M6:

    The 2007 BMW M6 betters the performance of most hyperexpensive exotics in a relatively unassuming-looking package, with comfortable accommodations for four...

    Switch off DSC and you can drift the M6 with aplomb. The third-generation SMG works wonderfully, blipping the throttle expertly before blindingly fast downshifts and upshifting with agility that will win most stoplight races. If you think you're pretty good, the M6 will make you feel invincible. Drivelogic has 11 possible settings. The higher the program, the quicker it shifts.

    Don't even think about claiming the M cars are somehow soft because of SMG...Lexus doesn't have an equivalent to M cars and it certainly doesn't offer anything approaching the 7 speed SMG used in the M5 and M6. If they had an smg like BMW's M cars or Audi's DSG, I wouldn't complain one bit about an "automatic" equipped IS350. But alas, the IS350 uses a normal, run of the mill automatic...not an smg.
  • glenfordglenford Member Posts: 138
    "Sorry it's not real news; it's salesman lies to keep people from buying a competitor. The IS250 has 201 hp per lexus"

    I'm aware of the Canadian site. And your comment matches what I posted in response to a salesman's claims a few days ago. Lexus tightly controls information. The quote is from their "Chief Engineer". He has a marketing role, as well, let's be realistic about that. But he's a bit different than a SoCal sales manager. In the end, he should (likely) be more motivated by long-term success than a short-term sales save. Thus if he thought the extra hp was important enough to exaggerate about, you'd think he would have influenced the design to make it happen. (Not always possible.)

    Ah, hope springs eternal. Some people still are praying for a 350MT ;-)

    Lots of parsing for a single line in an Australian interview. I can afford to wait until it hits the showrooms. I own my cars - no deadline to get a new one.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    These are attributes that propelled Lexus to the luxury leadership in the NA market. This is the winning formula I allude to....

    OAC,

    What leadership are you talking about??

    Statistically Lexus is #4 in the luxury car segment. What winning strategy are you talking about?? In fact Lexus #4 position may be soon lost to Infiniti.

    Statistically speaking, Lexus will confront a negative slope in terms of car sales If they continue their snoozemobile approach to luxury
  • davidd3davidd3 Member Posts: 582
    Nearly 2 weeks ago my local Lexus dealer put my name on the waiting list. I'm #7 on the list. But since the 6 people ahead of me are waiting for the 350, I'm actually #1 for the 250. The only reason I'm targeting the 250 i/o the 350 is the anticipated price. I assume that once the car is equipped as I'd want it (leather, sunroof, power heated seats, etc.), the 250 will be the one that fits in my price range (around 35K). But as you said, pricing has not yet been released. In that regard, I share your frustration.

    The dealer told me that a $500 refundable deposit is required from people on the waiting list. I somehow avoided leaving a deposit that day by saying I would need to talk it over with my wife. The salesperson is now on a long vacation (honeymoon) and is not chasing me for the deposit. I may pop in to the dealer this weekend and leave the deposit, just to make sure that my name won't fall off the waiting list or slip down to the bottom of the waiting list. As I understand it, it would be a no risk situation. When the first cars come in, they will give me a call. If I don't want one, they will refund my deposit and call the next person on the list.

    I'm also considering the 2006 BMW 325i. I wish that the IS was out right now so that I could compare the two and then decide. Instead I will have to wait until early September. I think that the new IS will be worth waiting for, so I'm not jumping at the Bimmer right away. Hey, who knows, maybe this is just the right kind of attitude to eventually get a good price from a Bimmer dealer.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    It's hard to say that Lexus is really continuing with the "snoozemobile" approach. The most recent releases by Lexus seem to be moving in a more sporty direction than in the past. You can't make a total 180 degree turn in this business. Especially when you were reasonably successful making "snoozemobiles". BMW is not Benz and Lexus is not Infiniti. They all have business models to follow and trying to emulate another manufacturer to a tee can end up being disasterous.

    Give me an 3 series sized small RWD sedan with a more Lexuslike enterior than the spartan BMW one and I'm there. I think I'm an IS customer all the way since I place a higher importance on styling and amenities than all out handling. Not everyone is trying to pretend they are doing laps around Road Atlanta.

    Lexus already posted the number of IS's they hope to sell. As long as they reach that forecast, they will consider the car a success. I don't think they'll have any more problem selling as many as they want just as Acura is selling as many TSX's as they wanted to sell. They didn't want to take over the market. Just sell what they offered. A FWD, 4 cylinder entry lux sedan is not a car that any of us really would consider a IS or 3-series competitor. Yet Acura seems quite happy with it so far. So do those entry lux buyers that place a higher importance on amenities and price over what wheels are driven and the number of cylinders in the engine.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    There is nothing sadate about the GS, new or old. The IS300 was/is harder-riding than any BMW 3 series (not necessarily the M series based on 3) contemporary to its production run. The old GS and IS did not do well because Lexus neglected model line refreshing; the GS was left unchanged for 8 years! BMW adds new model variants to the 5 lineup every couple years if not every year. A few horsepower bump here and an extra cog there, while almost completely meaningless as far as real life utilization is conerned, is a huge draw in marketting terms. That's what Lexus was talking about when they said they wanted to play in BMW's sand box.

    Being a 5 series fighter is about potentially displacing would-be 5 series sales. It can be achieved in numerous ways, acclearation and handling are only two of them. others include luxury content, rear leg room, trunk size, reliability and price, just to name a few. Neither your opinion nor mine matters, neither being old or being young matters, unless we have the doughs ready to buy a 5 series or its competitor. The average age for buyers of new 5 series and its competitors is actually around 50, so your quip about 50+ LS owner is quite pointless. 5 series and LS (or the Toyota branded version where Lexus is not available) are often cross-shopped the world over. The GS is plenty close enough in performance, in fact supassing the bulk of 5 series, the 525i's and arguably even the 530i's. The key to marketting is keeping the models updated and fresh in the review circles. Even without taking a page from BMW marketting, LS gets model update every 2-3 years, and that has a lot to do with its success.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    What Im going to say on this is that the IS is not the GS. I think the GS can survive, especially if Lexus makes changes to VDIM, and the steering and brakes in the 430 to make them a little more natural. There is a market for what the GS is, though I will say its not really what I wanted to see from Lexus. What I wanted is what the M45 is.

    For the IS though, there cant be any excuses. If they really want to take on the 3, or even the A4, the IS has to deliver on all counts. If not, its going to flop, especially in Europe where Lexus needs it to do well.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Statistically Lexus is #4 in the luxury car segment.

    By statistically, I suppose you mean sales numbers, right ? If that is the case, then Lexus is the #1 luxury name plate in America since it sells the most $30K+ luxury cars/coupe/trucks of all luxury makers.

    What leadership are you talking about??

    The statistical one (using your words, not mine) I just mentioned above....
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    For the IS though, there cant be any excuses. If they really want to take on the 3, or even the A4, the IS has to deliver on all counts...

    The current IS300 is no slouch in the handling dept. The new IS won't be either. The signs are that this car will be well tuned for sporty handling. With the all-new 3.5L 300+HP dual vvt-i motor, with power across all bands, and 280Ibft of torque, you'd expect a much better performance than the car it replaces. The wheel setup appears staggered, the 18" rims do fill the wheel well, and the car is quite low; all signs pointing to a good handling car. We just don't know the suspension setup to nail the assumptions here. I am quite confident the new IS will be a much better improvement to an already good IS300 in the handling dept. Would it dethrone the e90 ? Of course not. It will only be an alternative, and a darn good one too, for those who'd also like a much better equipped interior and luxury features than the spartan interior of the e90. Feature-for-feature, the new IS will be a better overall car than the new e90, imo.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Lexus is the #1 luxury name plate in America since it sells the most $30K+ luxury cars/coupe/trucks of all luxury makers

    :confuse:

    Are you referring to my post? Why dont you re-read it before you respond to it!!
  • chris65amgchris65amg Member Posts: 372
    ""The current IS300 is no slouch in the handling dept""

    Gosh, it was better than the 325i! (avoids tomatoes)
    The main problem with the IS300 was that Lexus made the interior look like it came out of a boy racer. It turned off many people. Also, those dumb dumb shoppers (sarcasm, here, folks) thought that the IS300 could compare to the 330i! Silly people! I think it will come down to handling. I personally am looking forward to the IS350, and I don't perticularty care if it has a paddle shifter, the ones I've driven were very fun. Besides, nobody complains about the lack of a manual in a Bentley :P (more sarcasm)

    It's true. If Lexus improved at all upon the last IS, it will be a major contender handling-wise against the 3-Series. The new 330i, by the way, handles better than the last iteration, but when I test drove it, it seemed like it had more of an emphasis on style than handling. Still was one hell of a ride, and still better than the last one, but not by as much as I had hoped. Lexus may be able to catch BMW if they try. Who knows? I'm just waiting for the IS to come out. :)
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Are you referring to my post? Why dont you re-read it before you respond to it!!

    Your post gives statistics that Lexus is the #4 lux car seller in the US. Except that you choose to ignore all the other models Lexus sells, just to score a point. Fact is Lexus brand sells more luxury autos than anyone in the US. If you choose to segment the market to only cars, that's your choice....
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    And I thought we were discussing the IS and comparable cars?

    Luxury SUVs has as much revlevance in this forum as minivans
  • rotoryfanrotoryfan Member Posts: 111
    Lexus must really love automotive journalist Peter Lyon. Recently, he wrote the first English-language driving impressions we've seen of the 2nd-generation IS (for the Drive.com.au website - see our article below) and now he writes the second review as well, for England's Auto Express. Here it is:

    Class-leading quality, reliability and silky performance... Lexus is well known for all of them. But until now, one vital ingredient has been missing: visual excitement. The sensational new IS seeks to change this, adding sporty styling to Lexus' list of strengths. Auto Express was first behind the wheel to find out if the newcomer goes as well as it looks.

    In the flesh, it is certainly a stunner. Bigger than its predecessor and with a longer wheelbase, the car mixes Lexus traditionalism with sharp new lines.

    From the slanting headlights to the muscular belt line which arcs from the front wings to the tail-lamps, there is no doubt the IS takes up where the previous model left off. In Japan, the rear-wheel-drive machine comes with a choice of engines: a 2.5-litre V6 and a new 3.5 V6. But in place of the larger-capacity flagship, UK buyers will get a 2.2-litre turbodiesel developing 175bhp.

    Specs have not yet been finalised, but engineers estimate the 2.5 generates around 220bhp and 250Nm (185 lb/ft) of torque, while the 3.5-litre produces a healthy 310bhp and 360Nm (265 lb/ft). And although official acceleration figures aren't available, the IS350 is expected to sprint from 0-60mph in less than six seconds, in contrast to the IS250's 7.3 seconds.

    Whichever car you choose, power is delivered instantly and progressively, and the exhaust has even been given a beefy, metallic note for extra sportiness. That's all backed by a smooth six-speed automatic gearbox with steering wheel-mounted paddleshifters. With plenty of torque on offer, progress is effortless, while an excellent ride - plus the class's quietest cabin - adds further appeal.

    Through corners, the IS's stiff chassis and sporty suspension set-up combine to provide handling which is among the best in this sector. The steering could do with more feel, but the IS is an agile machine with lots of grip - easily comparable with its German rivals.

    Safety has been at the heart of the car's development, too, and the company has included an updated version of its stability control system which, combined with strong brakes, makes for a thoroughly reassuring drive.

    The interior blends soft, flowing contours with materials of the highest quality, while an exquisite 13-speaker Pioneer sound system is included as standard. Meanwhile, the seats provide incredible support and, as we have come to expect from the Japanese brand, the cabin's construction is solid.

    The latest IS also features a twin-chamber airbag for front occupants - a world first on a production car. This set-up's new 'omni-support concept' means two front airbags open together in an accident. They form a V-shaped indentation, capturing the driver and passenger's head and shoulders, spreading the load and reducing the chance of injury.

    The all-new IS is so far ahead of its predecessor that it could have been given another name. Unlike previous models from the company, it certainly looks the part and handles superbly, while offering impeccable comfort and quality as only Lexus can. The German competition should be very worried.

    First Opinion:
    Stylish, fast, fun to drive and beautifully made - the new IS has all it needs to tempt customers from German rivals. Bettering the previous car in every way - but keeping Lexus brand values intact - the model has head-turning styling and huge showroom desirability. It's a pity the 3.5-litre V6 isn't coming here (to Europe), but the 2.5 is superb and makes for a silky smooth tourer.

    At a Glance:
    You'd expect a high-quality interior from Lexus, but the new IS scores on technology as well, with the infotainment system in the centre console controlled via a touch screen. Keen drivers will appreciate the paddleshifters on the steering wheel, too.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    You'd expect a high-quality interior from Lexus, but the new IS scores on technology as well, with the infotainment system in the centre console controlled via a touch screen. Keen drivers will appreciate the paddleshifters on the steering wheel, too.

    rofl
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    It is amazing how facts can provoke such a harsh response!

    This is like flogging a dead horse and going nowhere.

    I have nothing much to say about your rationalizations for Lexus being #4 versus #1.
  • sortersorter Member Posts: 146
    There are a few guys on this board hate Lexus so much but still visit an average 5 to 10 times per day. Why?

    The news from JD Power this week is how GM/Ford is doing better. But are they really doing better or is it because those Euro Luxury Sport Car maker are doing soooooooooooooooooo bad that makes the "average" really low therefore makes the Detroit 3 seems better?

    To those lexus hater on this board, why do people pay so much to have a car made by some Euro Sport Car Company that is so much worse than a focus or Century in a mere 3 years?

    I guess you won't hear the word German Engineering on TV ads any more. Or it could have the meaning of something that is easily breakdown like the Space Shuttle... :cry:
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    If you want to troll, at least do it well!

    Now. The facts are Lexus has the luxury market well in hand, and the only thing they haven't done yet is make a sports sedan with Lexus-style. The GS misses, and the IS almost gets it.

    Corrections will be made by the mid-gen facelift if it is underpowered (less HP than the car it replaces) or is missing fun parts (MT). They will piece together a great sports sedan, it'll just take more time than we thought.

    Saying Lexus is #4 in car sales is like saying Alex Rodriguez isn't stealing bases like he used to! Being the best luxury car seller and builder with 9 models, in only 10 years, cannot be anything but aweinspiring.

    My issue is with Mr. Clements overpromising, yet underdelivering. Lexus' mission statement makes it pretty clear they seek to exceed customer expectations.

    IS customers want a sports-sedan, with Lexus quality and style, period.

    They are getting really close to hitting the bulls-eye.

    DrFill
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    > And I thought we were discussing the IS and comparable cars?
    > Luxury SUVs has as much revlevance in this forum as minivans

    Far more people cross shop IS vs. RX than say C vs. S or 3 vs. 7. People buy RX as a luxury wagon because that's what it really is. Many if not most RX sales would have been ES or IS if there were no RX. Artificially excluding RX, which accounts for nearly half of all Lexus sales, is a bit much.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Selling 100k $40k SUV's, and making a nice profit on each one, plus add-ons and financing shows that Lexus knows what we want inan SU and a Luxury car. Now if they can get the sports side together.....

    Selling as many luxury SUV's as cars is ideal, not any sign of weakness. Americans buy 50% cars, 50% trucks/SUV's. Lexus has it right. Again.

    Now they are ready to go for the throat and diversify/expand.

    And comparing Infiniti to Lexus is a slap in the face, really. Arby's to McDonalds. Small fries to Big Macs

    DrFill
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