You'll be doing a lot of pitying. Based on your comments it may well be good professions to be in because that is why most people buy luxury brands (not that there is anything wrong with that). It's their money they can spend as they wish.
Sure I love the fact that I will be driving a gorgeous car, but the most important thing is that I enjoy the car, not anybody else that might not .... and thats why I'm gonna buy the IS 350!... or... LS 500... hmm :confuse:
It's just that until the Lexus builds an IS that is actually status worthy, anyone buying an IS is just buying the cheapest Lexus. Not much status in that. Lot's of cars cost $30k. Like a loaded Camry V6 XLE which also has a larger more powerful engine.
Is the IS a status symbol? Naa. Just a nice set of RWD wheels. Maybe a GS430 or an LS. Even an SC.
It's just that until the Lexus builds an IS that is actually status worthy!
Status worthy: which vehicle costs more!
Benchmark-worthy: which vehicle has the best chassis/drivetrain in the industry.
Fortunately the best benchmark cars are not neccessarily the best status cars. A BMW 330 or M3 performs/handles better than its higher status sibling the 7 series.
Likewise assuming Lexus does things right , an IS350 will drip andrenelin out of an excited drivers ears while the higher status GS driver is on snooze mode.
Status, the hell with status! Give me excitement versus an overbloated and heavy luxury cruiser.
I hope Lexus never gets to the "status" of BMW's...with the negative stereotypes, etc. We have all heard the various jokes (such as - what is the difference between a BMW and a porupine - hint: one has the pricks on the outside).
Wow, I thought Bangle sounded like a tool describing his design "philosophy" but that guy's description of the IS...mindblowingly silly. I have a Japanese word about a natural object that springs to mind when I look at the IS's design: kuso.
Sound systems, body shape and interior appoinments. Yup, just what the doctor ordered for the patient seeking a driving experience.
More proof that Lexus has either abandoned the younger customer (late twenties, feeling some oats) the program was designed to capture (in effort of enticing even more bloated, balding 50+ LS lounger types), or they have no clue what their target wants or even is.
Disappointment reigns at least until the thing shows up.
When you have to hire Harvard English majors to explain the car something is not right. In Europe the IS is a much tougher sell than in the US so I guess they have to use whatever tool to get it done.One has to wonder who they're trying to sell the car to with a write up like that.
They're trying to sell it to people who analyze purchases based on quantitative information, yet feel a need to rationalize the purchase based on qualatative reinforcement that they not only wouldn't understand, but that doesn't really exist in the first place.
"Oh no, it isn't just cobbled together from a melange of popular styling elements in a vain attempt to create a true corporate identity from nothing but "reliability" and service desk kow-tow activities; we meant to do that."
Codswallop.
It's either going to be a great car to drive, or just another Lexus plushesque yawn-mobile. All the straight-line acceleration prowess in the world (as potentially in the 350) won't cure a case of the blahs (witness the GS430).
I sincerely believe that Toyota/Lexus management attributes the low IS sales to the fact that it is so different from all other Lexus products.
Success to Lexus is defined by what satisfies potential Lexus owners. Based on this forum it appears potential IS buyers demand the following:
A car that exudes luxury versus a serious racy look A car that is status worthy A car that is bigger to suit family needs The irrelevence of a 6 speed mt in the IS350 A more affordable alternative than a GS An overemphasis on 0-60 stats and an underemphasis on its handling dynamics A car that has a family resemblance to its siblings(to many forum member the current IS is the ugly duckling of the family)
So as the saying goes: A snoozemobile for one is a desirable dream mobile for another!
"A car that exudes luxury versus a serious racy look "
Doesn't a BMW 3-series exude luxury as well sport? I think it does. It seems the new IS will do that quite well also.
"A car that is status worthy "
If it isn't going to be status worthy, what is the point of Lexus to begin with? Or for that matter BMW? Or Ferrari?
"A car that is bigger to suit family needs "
Is their something wrong with suiting family needs?
"An overemphasis on 0-60 stats and an underemphasis on its handling dynamics "
How do you come to the conclusion that handling dynamics will be *underemphasised*?? Have you driven the IS yet???
It seems your looking for something way way way different than the Lexus IS or even BMW 3-series for that matter. As others have said before you should try the Lancer Evo or IMpreza WRX/STi. Both are ridiculously light on luxury and both exude a seriously racy look, neither are status worthy, both have manual trannies, Both overemphasis 0-60 as well as handling. I think you're barking up the wrong tree. You should go to a Mitsu showroom right away!
I think that is is pretty dangerous to make claims that Lexus has over or underemphasized different attributes of its hadling and/or acceleration prowess. Personally, I think that a lot of people are still sucking the sour grape because the IS350 doesn't have a stick. Not saying anyone in particular....
I'm looking into an IS350 possibly. If it's better than the 330i, I'll buy it. And the current (new, i guess) 330i isn't a perfect car either. I believe that the Lexus will handle well enough. Generally, Toyota knows what they are doing. The GS, although often ridiculed by certain "smart people" fills the spot that Lexus wanted it to: a person who wants a larger sport sedan with more luxury than sport.
It is important to remember that Lexus usually has leaned toward luxury and sophistication as opposed to BMW's rather sporting attitude. But the GS was a good try, and if they learn from their mistakes, then I believe that the IS will be a good car.
Fortunately the best benchmark cars are not neccessarily the best status cars. A BMW 330 or M3 performs/handles better than its higher status sibling the 7 series.
And almost any motorcycle will "perform/handle" better than a 330 or M3. What's your point? Why compare apples and oranges? The 3 series and 7 series aren't remotely aimed at the same buyer. And, in any event, if Michael Schumacher were in the market for a BMW sedan, you'd be wise to bet that he'd take a 7 series over a 3 series.
i hope im not the only one who has heard this as i have been waiting for the new IS so i can choose between it and the 330i...but a local so cal dealer mentioned to me that the new IS350 will have 320 hp...he said "the bmw 330i has 65 less hp than the new IS350"..also mentioned it will be priced at 5 to 7 thousand less. If this really is the case...it will be too hard not going with the IS. He sounded legit guys...what do you think? if the IS handling is even par with E46 handling it would be a difficult choice choosing the 330i over the new IS.
Doesn't a BMW 3-series exude luxury as well sport?
Yes, and that I view as a weakness!
If it isn't going to be status worthy, what is the point of Lexus to begin with? Or for that matter BMW? Or Ferrari?
A competent road-worthy car does not have to be luxurious! In fact luxury kills the sporty feel of any car!!! Yes and I view the luxury in BMWs as a weakness!
Is their something wrong with suiting family needs?
Minivans are the best for family needs. A over-sized sport sedan is not the segment the IS is suppose to be in( oh yes and that includes the BMW 3 series)
How do you come to the conclusion that handling dynamics will be *underemphasised*?? Have you driven the IS yet???
My conclusion is based on what I read in this forum---appears many are mostly swayed by the 0-60 stat---imo.
So now it appears I painted myself in corner, a Subaru dealership corner where a WRS sti is displayed (No Evos in Canada)! Well in that case appearances are deceiving!
My corner is at a BMW dealership sometime in 2006 where the 130i is displayed(hopefully wagon version).
"You may be right...I'm just talking base to base - same general options. Once you say 325i auto you lose me, add in premium and heated seats and it's a big question mark as to why even bother buying a sport sedan...just get an ES330."
Well, a lot of people don't see it as black and white as you would. Some people want a sedan that handles well but don't necessarily want to row the gears. And a lot of people don't want their [non-permissible content removed] to get cold, whether they're shifting or not.
jrock makes a VERY valid point. Heck, more than half the 3 series sold in the US have automatic transmissions, and almost 80% of A-4's sold in the US have automatic transmissions.
"Doesn't a BMW 3-series exude luxury as well sport?
Yes, and that I view as a weakness! "
The odd thing is you are one of the very very very few who see the the luxurious side of the 3-series as a weakness!
I don't know what you expected, but I think you have always known a Lexus would be more bent towards luxury then sport, just like all the other competitors in the class are. I think you have already written off the Lexus IS, as well as the BMW 3-series, Audi A4, so why bother rehashing the same thing over and over on this board??? The IS350 isn't going to be a Lancer Evo. Only the Lancer Evo is going to be that.
"Is their something wrong with suiting family needs?
Minivans are the best for family needs. A over-sized sport sedan is not the segment the IS is suppose to be in( oh yes and that includes the BMW 3 series) "
So, what good are 4-doors on a 4-door SEDAN??? Are they just there for added beauty?? Are they there for lower insurance???
The IS was supposed to target the 325 from day one of its adaptation plan. We were told again and again that Lexus was attempting, with this next generation of sedans, (starting with the GS) to bring serious sport to the lineup as they started with the IS program. Now the updated GS has failed to deliver, and the next gen IS certainly doesn't seem to have even the credentials of the model it replaces. Those of us who saw a glimmer of hope in all the corporate-speak are disappointed with the direction. They lied. They lied in fact with the GS and potentially with the IS.
Clements said it all the way back in '03 [paraphrase]: we have a two-pronged approach with our entry-level offerings in the IS300 and ES330; two distinct approaches for two decidely different customers so that neither has to compromise.
So much for not compromising.
Lexus doesn't need yet another marshmallow puff for customers it already has. It needs to broaden the base it started with the current IS. The indications are that they just don't get it. Who cares what the 350 can do in a straight line? It doesn't matter in the least what kind of 0-60 times the 350 can post; A) it isn't the bread and butter model, and a straight line isn't driving.
Your slant is that maybe those of us (including current Lexus owners) who love to drive should go someplace else if we want real driving. It'll probably happen, so don't worry. But we retain the right to be truly pissed that we were led down the primrose path on these new cars. They are not what they were trumpeted to be. What we expected was that they were serious when they said "sport".
BTW, the last set of tires I'll buy for this IS is coming from Big O. Staggered set of F1 GS D-3s for $714.68 OTD. Not bad at all. I don't usually endorse any shop, but if you're looking to re-rubber right now, I'd at least give Big O a shot.
Got over 15K miles out of this set (a new record for me) and they still grip like snot!
The preceeding was an unpaid announcement for real IS drivers... }-]
Lexus has proven they can do pretty much anything better than the Germans except make a car someone looks forward to driving, and make a car with unmatched style (save for the original Lexus coupe, which Germany was clearly overwhelmed by, and stands as an abhorration in terms of style,inside and out).
The IS can be the whole enchilada, but oldhabits seem to die hard at Lexus. Keeping upwith the Joneses with all of these safety aids is not helping the cause.
BMW is starting to dilute their knack for tuning suspension compliance and feel, now steering is under seige. Mercedes is going from mediocre to poor, dynamically. And Audi has already made the same mistake Mercedes used to make, and Lexus wants to make. Right tranny on the wrong engine.
Either do it right, or remove yourself from the "sports sedan" game. Americans have no Autobahn, so handling doesn't sell here! Just give us a chance to have it all. If the suspension needs more sport, we can add tires and shocks later. Or if you're smart, sell us a sports pkg. But get the engine/tranny right!
Lexus opened the door to the idea of a true "sports sedan". It's up to them to fulfill their own "Passionate Pursuit".
I seem much more passionate. So does BMW and Infiniti, unfortunately.
"also mentioned it will be priced at 5 to 7 thousand less. If this really is the case...it will be too hard not going with the IS. He sounded legit guys...what do you think?"
I think there is a real risk that, since he has nothing to sell you right now, he will predict things that might keep you from buying until he gets another chance at your business. If he turns out to be wrong, he says he's sorry. But if he doesn't say it, he loses you "forever".
Lots of discussion in prior pages about price predictions (scattered in amongst the BMW and MT wars), but Lexus has provided pretty limited guidance. That is not proof, of course, that he IS actually wrong. We can hope. I'm waiting, too. Tim
This dealer that told you that the IS350 was going to be $5k-$7k less than 330i, maybe he's referring to the IS250 in terms of pricing. The 330i starts around $37k, then optioned out its a solid $45k. I don't think that a comparably equipped IS350 will start at $30-$32k. I will say that the standard features listed for the IS350 will most likely be far greater than the bimmer, but they'll be comparably price.
I really truly hope that someone from Lexus has been listening and monitoring all of the conversation and chit chat that has been going on in Edmunds and other various sites. Although Toyota is probably one of the most influential car manufacturers in the world today, we the consumer have given them that rank. People have gobbled up their SUV's and the LS430, albeit dull and nothing spectacular, is probably the best luxury sedan on the market.
Without getting off subject, I'm more interested to see if a change in direction can be accomplished with IS from a company that has achieved such success as Lexus. Everyone in this forum either would like, wants, or owns a Lexus. With the BMW 3 series being the best selling BMW, the Infiniti G selling well, and increased sales in the Mercedes C class, Lexus needs to bring there A game with the IS. While it may not handle like a new 330i or like a Subaru WRX or Mitsu Evo (that's such a joke to compare a WRX or an EVO to the new IS), the IS has the potential to be a serious blockbuster development. With the LF-A coming out in a few years, it shows me that Lexus is dedicated to improving on their performance and handling. Let's face it, a serious improvement in handling and performance will push Lexus past BMW and MBZ as the leader in luxury performance.
Pricing will be key because although the Lexus IS will compete with the MBZ C230,C350, BMW 325i/330i, and the Audi A4 2.0, 3.2; it will also compete with the Acura TL, Infiniti G, Volvo S60, Jaguar X-type, etc. This market is the largest in terms of sheer volume for cars, and in the case of the bimmer and the Infiniti G, will have to have a minimum of 35,000 plus in sales to even sniff at their heels. Lexus if your listening, don't price out potential buyers like myself. If a near fully loaded IS350 comes anywhere near $40k or more, I'll be heading to the Infiniti dealership to pick me up a G35 sedan or coupe.
Besides the sedan, does anyone have any relevant information on the IS coupe. Any information on specs, pricing, availability, etc?
"... . Now the updated GS has failed to deliver, and the next gen IS certainly doesn't seem to have even the credentials of the model it replaces. Those of us who saw a glimmer of hope in all the corporate-speak are disappointed with the direction. They lied. They lied in fact with the GS and potentially with the IS..."
Lexus lied ??? How so ? If sales of the new GS is anything to go by, then they are doing exactly what they promised. Buyers are buying up the new GS in droves.... Sales of the GS continues to outpace its M competitor released at about same time. Does that constitute failure ? If you create a product which sells pretty well in your market space, how can you criticize it ? Afterall, the GS was not designed/targeted to you, Wale. It is hitting the mark with its target audience and that's what success is. Lexus is in the market to make money, right ?
"Your slant is that maybe those of us (including current Lexus owners) who love to drive should go someplace else if we want real driving. It'll probably happen, so don't worry. But we retain the right to be truly pissed that we were led down the primrose path on these new cars. They are not what they were trumpeted to be. What we expected was that they were serious when they said "sport"."
Really ? Have you actually physically seen the new IS ? Forget about actually driving the car which you nor anyone here have experienced to date, yet you make such categorical statements.... The new IS will be a huge success in its market space, that is my guess. Why ? Bcos its new design already has many people excited, its list of features are quite lengthy and a huge upgrade for an entry-level lux sedan. Heck, the current IS is a driver's car, and as an owner which you are, why do you disparage Lexus's ability to replicate this in the new IS ? I'd expect you'd be the first to bat for Lexus since you are an owner of the current IS. Did I miss something here ??
hope im not the only one who has heard this as i have been waiting for the new IS so i can choose between it and the 330i...but a local so cal dealer mentioned to me that the new IS350 will have 320 hp...he said "the bmw 330i has 65 less hp than the new IS350"..also mentioned it will be priced at 5 to 7 thousand less.
True on the HP, false on pricing. There's no way in hades an IS350 will start at 30k. If they did that, they'd sell them faster than britney spears can flush her career down the toilet.
As for HP...the G35 has 298 hp, yet it can't outrun a 235 hp 330i ZHP. Obviously, someone's HP numbers are bogus...
If this really is the case...it will be too hard not going with the IS. He sounded legit guys...what do you think? if the IS handling is even par with E46 handling it would be a difficult choice choosing the 330i over the new IS.
Lexus can still learn from its mistakes in its GS. Their 2007 or 2008 GS model should get an engine update from the V8 in the upcoming LS. 4.6 V8? maybe a 5.0? Lexus could also correct their VDIM system. But then again, who really does real sport driving in a car this size. Lexus also can't make it too sporty because the car bridges the gap between the 30k models and the 60k model (LS). Remember, some gramps out there are fine with all luxury. The new IS350 also has the VDIM system in it. Lexus says the IS's VDIM will be "tuned for driving fun". Whether it will be as interruptive as the GS's VDIM, only time will tell. Its smaller size and stance should provide better handling and cornering. I think Lexus will do a better job blending sport and luxury in the future not only because its Lexus, but because they need to. Most of their success lies largely in the luxury SUV market with the exception of maybe the ES and LS models. As rb1 said earlier, the IS will compete with around 10+ models in the entry luxury/luxury sport category. There is a large piece of pie at stake here.
****Don't forget about the possibility of the IS460 or IS500 > cross your fingers
I mean come on get real. What do you expect from a *luxury* badge? Do you expect a kit car to come out of a *luxury* brand's showroom? Well, that is basically what some of you are looking for. As I said, it seems like some are barking up the wrong tree. If you're looking for pure sport, you're not going to find it at Lexus, Mercedes, Infiniti, or in most of BMW's line, and especially among the regular BMW 3-series models. Come on, harping on and on about carmakers losing touch with what a sports sedan is supposed to be. harping about the added weight airbags bring and how it takes away from the *sport* factor. As I said go buy a Evo or STi. Better yet, buy a Kit car!!
Again, you're giving this B.S. about the IS being a marshmallow puff, and this and that. Let me ask you something...have you driven the IS??? Okay, right....then give it a rest with the predictions of it being a marshmallow puff on the road and this and that. The last IS didn't come with a stick at the start either, was it's handling marshmallow puff??? Did it's handling all of a sudden become sporty just by adding the stick??? I think not!
As max mentioned, every single car in this class, including the 3 series and A4, sacrifices ultimate performance for luxury features. If you dont want the luxury, why are you paying for it? WRX Sti and EVO MR will out run and out handle any entry lux car short of the tuner versions. They both have Momo steering wheels, racing level seats, and there's no wood to be found.
As for the IS, as I've said before, Lexus did some things right with the original, but they made a lot of mistakes too. The new car corrects all of those mistakes. If it preserves what the original did right, they'll have a winner. Also keep in mind that the ES is not sold in markets that dont have the Camry, so the IS is Lexus' only entry-lux car in those markets. There wasnt much luxury in the original, so its easy to see why buyers ignored it for A4s and BMWs.
From the Sidney newspaper article posted a few days ago:
"However, as engine output has not yet been finalised, Lexus could not give us exact figures. But not wanting to steer us in the wrong direction, chief engineer Suguya Fukusato told us we can expect to see the new line-up in showrooms generating around 165kW (221 hp) for the 2.5 litre and a hugely impressive 233kW (312 hp) for the 3.5 litre."
.....looking for pure sport in a luxury car(go figure). Buy a IS250 manual, take out all of the airbags, replace steering wheel with a momo unit, strip out sound insulation(adds useless weight according to some in a luxury car, go figure that), rip that radio out(after all, radio's are not *sporty*), then add a turbo to the engine, and voila, you got a *sports car* from a luxury make!
Listen to this...my contact wrote back after writing back to confirm the 320 statement...its really 310 hp. Which is still fairly impressive. And we were specifically writing about the IS350...so the price estimate of 5 to 7 k was a slight surprise as well. A loaded 06 330i is set well over 45k....i just dont think it would be too bright for lexus to sell the IS 350 comparably equipped for nearly that much. I think the U.S. market has gradually leaned toward better overall driving dynamics in this segmant...and the horse power issue, though impressive, isn't as great a deal anymore than it was sometime ago. People are being sold more on real world driving machines...so with that said...if lexus wants to impress the LUX sports sedan market...they will offer the IS (which sounds great on paper) very very well equipped below 40k... ps...im waiting for the IS (too intriguing) as well...PPSS yeah, i felt he, dealer, was just trying to sell me on it prematurely too....the IS is the best shot they have at really competing with the 3...the numbers are impressive.
.looking for pure sport in a luxury car(go figure). Buy a IS250 manual, take out all of the airbags, replace steering wheel with a momo unit, strip out sound insulation(adds useless weight according to some in a luxury car, go figure that), rip that radio out(after all, radio's are not *sporty*), then add a turbo to the engine, and voila, you got a *sports car* from a luxury make!
Why not just do that with a G35? more power out of the box - 298 hp. and the vq is easily tunable too.
I think most of us complaining about weight would point to all players in this market. Anything over 3000 lbs is way too much. 2700-2800 lbs should be more than enough.
BTW, the WRX and Evo are ratty, econo cars. they're little more than compact cars with awd and turbo engines...no refinement, no balance, no thought given to supplying drivers with anything beyond massive power. no thanks.
A loaded 06 330i is set well over 45k....i just dont think it would be too bright for lexus to sell the IS 350 comparably equipped for nearly that much.
That's an over-equipped 330i. A 330i with leather, sport package and metallic paint is 40k msrp. It comes with power seats, moonroof and xenons standard. What more does one need? Active cruise? Junk. Active steering? trash. Navi? total bling bling. 40k gets you a ready to rumble 330i with some luxury bits.
if lexus wants to impress the LUX sports sedan market...they will offer the IS (which sounds great on paper) very very well equipped below 40k...
Well at minimum the is350 is gonna be a 35k car before xenons and moonroof (both so far are listed as options).
It is pure fantasy expecting an IS350 to be priced at $35K. Get real. Buy the ED version of your e90 and be done with it. This IS350 does NOT meet your needs in every way possible - no MT, too flabby, not enough sportiness, too much luxury features, too pricey, .... what else am I missing out ?
For me, I am waiting to test drive an IS350. I think 310HP 280Ib ft of torque, nice exterior and equally nice list of goodies will make me easily forget the spartan, Banglized e90 Bimmer real quick. Man does not live on performance alone, you know ! Some of us gotta have our nice features while we drive, afterall we spend plenty of time in our cars, we might as well make it as comfortable as we can. See, I own an LS already, what does that tell ya ??? Luxury is the name of the game for me, splice that with some sporty handling in a nice small/compact IS, and I am game. I figure the IS will nicely complement the big LS in my garage. That's me tho'.... If I need a stripped rocket pocket, I'd buy the WRX at $30K and be done with it.
jrock...I'll give anything a shot. Heck, last time I even test drove a CTS manual. If the IS350 is super fun, who knows...
I won't write it off until I've driven it. I had written off BMW too...bound and determined not to buy one and to buy a japanese car. Life takes strange turns.
Even now, there is a part of me screaming 06 MX-5, 06/07 GTI, 06 A3, Mazdaspeed3. I'm still looking for something I like more than the e90. Official word of an M3 sedan could get me to go for something else too for the shortterm.
Comments
Is the IS a status symbol? Naa. Just a nice set of RWD wheels. Maybe a GS430 or an LS. Even an SC.
Actually, to date, the person buying the IS has been buying the only Lexus worth driving. That'd be the point, regardless of price. YMMV, of course.
[Returning to lurk mode...]
I saw a red Sportcross the other day.. And, the local Lexus dealer has a CPO '02 black Sportcross in the paper for $24K with only 26K miles...
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Status worthy: which vehicle costs more!
Benchmark-worthy: which vehicle has the best chassis/drivetrain in the industry.
Fortunately the best benchmark cars are not neccessarily the best status cars. A BMW 330 or M3 performs/handles better than its higher status sibling the 7 series.
Likewise assuming Lexus does things right , an IS350 will drip andrenelin out of an excited drivers ears while the higher status GS driver is on snooze mode.
Status, the hell with status! Give me excitement versus an overbloated and heavy luxury cruiser.
;-]
We have all heard the various jokes (such as - what is the difference between a BMW and a porupine - hint: one has the pricks on the outside).
Sound systems, body shape and interior appoinments. Yup, just what the doctor ordered for the patient seeking a driving experience.
More proof that Lexus has either abandoned the younger customer (late twenties, feeling some oats) the program was designed to capture (in effort of enticing even more bloated, balding 50+ LS lounger types), or they have no clue what their target wants or even is.
Disappointment reigns at least until the thing shows up.
To a Samurai warrior who is commuting between feudal battles and grocery stores.
"Oh no, it isn't just cobbled together from a melange of popular styling elements in a vain attempt to create a true corporate identity from nothing but "reliability" and service desk kow-tow activities; we meant to do that."
Codswallop.
It's either going to be a great car to drive, or just another Lexus plushesque yawn-mobile. All the straight-line acceleration prowess in the world (as potentially in the 350) won't cure a case of the blahs (witness the GS430).
We shall see...
I sincerely believe that Toyota/Lexus management attributes the low IS sales to the fact that it is so different from all other Lexus products.
Success to Lexus is defined by what satisfies potential Lexus owners. Based on this forum it appears potential IS buyers demand the following:
A car that exudes luxury versus a serious racy look
A car that is status worthy
A car that is bigger to suit family needs
The irrelevence of a 6 speed mt in the IS350
A more affordable alternative than a GS
An overemphasis on 0-60 stats and an underemphasis on its handling dynamics
A car that has a family resemblance to its siblings(to many forum member the current IS is the ugly duckling of the family)
So as the saying goes: A snoozemobile for one is a desirable dream mobile for another!
"A car that exudes luxury versus a serious racy look "
Doesn't a BMW 3-series exude luxury as well sport? I think it does. It seems the new IS will do that quite well also.
"A car that is status worthy "
If it isn't going to be status worthy, what is the point of Lexus to begin with? Or for that matter BMW? Or Ferrari?
"A car that is bigger to suit family needs "
Is their something wrong with suiting family needs?
"An overemphasis on 0-60 stats and an underemphasis on its handling dynamics "
How do you come to the conclusion that handling dynamics will be *underemphasised*?? Have you driven the IS yet???
It seems your looking for something way way way different than the Lexus IS or even BMW 3-series for that matter. As others have said before you should try the Lancer Evo or IMpreza WRX/STi. Both are ridiculously light on luxury and both exude a seriously racy look, neither are status worthy, both have manual trannies, Both overemphasis 0-60 as well as handling. I think you're barking up the wrong tree. You should go to a Mitsu showroom right away!
I'm looking into an IS350 possibly. If it's better than the 330i, I'll buy it. And the current (new, i guess) 330i isn't a perfect car either. I believe that the Lexus will handle well enough. Generally, Toyota knows what they are doing. The GS, although often ridiculed by certain "smart people" fills the spot that Lexus wanted it to: a person who wants a larger sport sedan with more luxury than sport.
It is important to remember that Lexus usually has leaned toward luxury and sophistication as opposed to BMW's rather sporting attitude. But the GS was a good try, and if they learn from their mistakes, then I believe that the IS will be a good car.
And almost any motorcycle will "perform/handle" better than a 330 or M3. What's your point? Why compare apples and oranges? The 3 series and 7 series aren't remotely aimed at the same buyer. And, in any event, if Michael Schumacher were in the market for a BMW sedan, you'd be wise to bet that he'd take a 7 series over a 3 series.
Yes, and that I view as a weakness!
If it isn't going to be status worthy, what is the point of Lexus to begin with? Or for that matter BMW? Or Ferrari?
A competent road-worthy car does not have to be luxurious! In fact luxury kills the sporty feel of any car!!! Yes and I view the luxury in BMWs as a weakness!
Is their something wrong with suiting family needs?
Minivans are the best for family needs. A over-sized sport sedan is not the segment the IS is suppose to be in( oh yes and that includes the BMW 3 series)
How do you come to the conclusion that handling dynamics will be *underemphasised*?? Have you driven the IS yet???
My conclusion is based on what I read in this forum---appears many are mostly swayed by the 0-60 stat---imo.
So now it appears I painted myself in corner, a Subaru dealership corner where a WRS sti is displayed (No Evos in Canada)! Well in that case appearances are deceiving!
My corner is at a BMW dealership sometime in 2006 where the 130i is displayed(hopefully wagon version).
Really, does Michael Schumacher know that??
Well, a lot of people don't see it as black and white as you would. Some people want a sedan that handles well but don't necessarily want to row the gears. And a lot of people don't want their [non-permissible content removed] to get cold, whether they're shifting or not.
jrock makes a VERY valid point. Heck, more than half the 3 series sold in the US have automatic transmissions, and almost 80% of A-4's sold in the US have automatic transmissions.
Good point! But I am a family man who is practical enough to know about rear seat requirements for my kids!
Any way I am grateful to communicate with someone who knows Mike Schumacher so well
Yes, and that I view as a weakness! "
The odd thing is you are one of the very very very few who see the the luxurious side of the 3-series as a weakness!
I don't know what you expected, but I think you have always known a Lexus would be more bent towards luxury then sport, just like all the other competitors in the class are. I think you have already written off the Lexus IS, as well as the BMW 3-series, Audi A4, so why bother rehashing the same thing over and over on this board??? The IS350 isn't going to be a Lancer Evo. Only the Lancer Evo is going to be that.
"Is their something wrong with suiting family needs?
Minivans are the best for family needs. A over-sized sport sedan is not the segment the IS is suppose to be in( oh yes and that includes the BMW 3 series) "
So, what good are 4-doors on a 4-door SEDAN??? Are they just there for added beauty?? Are they there for lower insurance???
I find your mind-reading abilities quite awesome. Unfortunately they are wrong.
So, what good are 4-doors on a 4-door SEDAN??? Are they just there for added beauty?? Are they there for lower insurance???
I will leave that question for you to answer!
The IS was supposed to target the 325 from day one of its adaptation plan. We were told again and again that Lexus was attempting, with this next generation of sedans, (starting with the GS) to bring serious sport to the lineup as they started with the IS program. Now the updated GS has failed to deliver, and the next gen IS certainly doesn't seem to have even the credentials of the model it replaces. Those of us who saw a glimmer of hope in all the corporate-speak are disappointed with the direction. They lied. They lied in fact with the GS and potentially with the IS.
Clements said it all the way back in '03 [paraphrase]: we have a two-pronged approach with our entry-level offerings in the IS300 and ES330; two distinct approaches for two decidely different customers so that neither has to compromise.
So much for not compromising.
Lexus doesn't need yet another marshmallow puff for customers it already has. It needs to broaden the base it started with the current IS. The indications are that they just don't get it. Who cares what the 350 can do in a straight line? It doesn't matter in the least what kind of 0-60 times the 350 can post; A) it isn't the bread and butter model, and
Your slant is that maybe those of us (including current Lexus owners) who love to drive should go someplace else if we want real driving. It'll probably happen, so don't worry. But we retain the right to be truly pissed that we were led down the primrose path on these new cars. They are not what they were trumpeted to be. What we expected was that they were serious when they said "sport".
Got over 15K miles out of this set (a new record for me) and they still grip like snot!
The preceeding was an unpaid announcement for real IS drivers...
}-]
The IS can be the whole enchilada, but oldhabits seem to die hard at Lexus. Keeping upwith the Joneses with all of these safety aids is not helping the cause.
BMW is starting to dilute their knack for tuning suspension compliance and feel, now steering is under seige. Mercedes is going from mediocre to poor, dynamically. And Audi has already made the same mistake Mercedes used to make, and Lexus wants to make. Right tranny on the wrong engine.
Either do it right, or remove yourself from the "sports sedan" game. Americans have no Autobahn, so handling doesn't sell here! Just give us a chance to have it all. If the suspension needs more sport, we can add tires and shocks later. Or if you're smart, sell us a sports pkg. But get the engine/tranny right!
Lexus opened the door to the idea of a true "sports sedan". It's up to them to fulfill their own "Passionate Pursuit".
I seem much more passionate. So does BMW and Infiniti, unfortunately.
DrFill
The market will decide if Lexus is on target with the IS...
The confusing part is why anyone who thinks any "luxury is a weakness" in a sporty sedan is waiting to try out a new Lexus model ???
Confusing indeed! Let me clarify!
The spartan understated elegance of an Audi interior is a strength.
The wood-trim luxury you see in several sedans are an eyesore. As such luxury vehicles age they begin to look like the gaudy interior of a bordello.
In contrast spartan interiors age real well! IMO .
I think there is a real risk that, since he has nothing to sell you right now, he will predict things that might keep you from buying until he gets another chance at your business. If he turns out to be wrong, he says he's sorry. But if he doesn't say it, he loses you "forever".
Lots of discussion in prior pages about price predictions (scattered in amongst the BMW and MT wars), but Lexus has provided pretty limited guidance. That is not proof, of course, that he IS actually wrong. We can hope. I'm waiting, too. Tim
This dealer that told you that the IS350 was going to be $5k-$7k less than 330i, maybe he's referring to the IS250 in terms of pricing. The 330i starts around $37k, then optioned out its a solid $45k. I don't think that a comparably equipped IS350 will start at $30-$32k. I will say that the standard features listed for the IS350 will most likely be far greater than the bimmer, but they'll be comparably price.
I really truly hope that someone from Lexus has been listening and monitoring all of the conversation and chit chat that has been going on in Edmunds and other various sites. Although Toyota is probably one of the most influential car manufacturers in the world today, we the consumer have given them that rank. People have gobbled up their SUV's and the LS430, albeit dull and nothing spectacular, is probably the best luxury sedan on the market.
Without getting off subject, I'm more interested to see if a change in direction can be accomplished with IS from a company that has achieved such success as Lexus. Everyone in this forum either would like, wants, or owns a Lexus. With the BMW 3 series being the best selling BMW, the Infiniti G selling well, and increased sales in the Mercedes C class, Lexus needs to bring there A game with the IS. While it may not handle like a new 330i or like a Subaru WRX or Mitsu Evo (that's such a joke to compare a WRX or an EVO to the new IS), the IS has the potential to be a serious blockbuster development. With the LF-A coming out in a few years, it shows me that Lexus is dedicated to improving on their performance and handling. Let's face it, a serious improvement in handling and performance will push Lexus past BMW and MBZ as the leader in luxury performance.
Pricing will be key because although the Lexus IS will compete with the MBZ C230,C350, BMW 325i/330i, and the Audi A4 2.0, 3.2; it will also compete with the Acura TL, Infiniti G, Volvo S60, Jaguar X-type, etc. This market is the largest in terms of sheer volume for cars, and in the case of the bimmer and the Infiniti G, will have to have a minimum of 35,000 plus in sales to even sniff at their heels. Lexus if your listening, don't price out potential buyers like myself. If a near fully loaded IS350 comes anywhere near $40k or more, I'll be heading to the Infiniti dealership to pick me up a G35 sedan or coupe.
Besides the sedan, does anyone have any relevant information on the IS coupe. Any information on specs, pricing, availability, etc?
"... . Now the updated GS has failed to deliver, and the next gen IS certainly doesn't seem to have even the credentials of the model it replaces. Those of us who saw a glimmer of hope in all the corporate-speak are disappointed with the direction. They lied. They lied in fact with the GS and potentially with the IS..."
Lexus lied ??? How so ? If sales of the new GS is anything to go by, then they are doing exactly what they promised. Buyers are buying up the new GS in droves.... Sales of the GS continues to outpace its M competitor released at about same time. Does that constitute failure ? If you create a product which sells pretty well in your market space, how can you criticize it ? Afterall, the GS was not designed/targeted to you, Wale. It is hitting the mark with its target audience and that's what success is. Lexus is in the market to make money, right ?
"Your slant is that maybe those of us (including current Lexus owners) who love to drive should go someplace else if we want real driving. It'll probably happen, so don't worry. But we retain the right to be truly pissed that we were led down the primrose path on these new cars. They are not what they were trumpeted to be. What we expected was that they were serious when they said "sport"."
Really ? Have you actually physically seen the new IS ? Forget about actually driving the car which you nor anyone here have experienced to date, yet you make such categorical statements.... The new IS will be a huge success in its market space, that is my guess. Why ? Bcos its new design already has many people excited, its list of features are quite lengthy and a huge upgrade for an entry-level lux sedan. Heck, the current IS is a driver's car, and as an owner which you are, why do you disparage Lexus's ability to replicate this in the new IS ? I'd expect you'd be the first to bat for Lexus since you are an owner of the current IS. Did I miss something here ??
Um, the handling and abilities of the car. A BMW is worthless if it has sloppy handling and bad engine tuning - see the 850 for an example of that.
Is their something wrong with suiting family needs?
If' that goal supplants handling and driver ergonomics, yes there is something wrong.
How do you come to the conclusion that handling dynamics will be *underemphasised*?? Have you driven the IS yet???
Probably basing it on the GS...Lexus direction is revealed a bit by the newest products.
True on the HP, false on pricing. There's no way in hades an IS350 will start at 30k. If they did that, they'd sell them faster than britney spears can flush her career down the toilet.
As for HP...the G35 has 298 hp, yet it can't outrun a 235 hp 330i ZHP. Obviously, someone's HP numbers are bogus...
If this really is the case...it will be too hard not going with the IS. He sounded legit guys...what do you think? if the IS handling is even par with E46 handling it would be a difficult choice choosing the 330i over the new IS.
We'll see.
The new IS350 also has the VDIM system in it. Lexus says the IS's VDIM will be "tuned for driving fun". Whether it will be as interruptive as the GS's VDIM, only time will tell. Its smaller size and stance should provide better handling and cornering. I think Lexus will do a better job blending sport and luxury in the future not only because its Lexus, but because they need to. Most of their success lies largely in the luxury SUV market with the exception of maybe the ES and LS models. As rb1 said earlier, the IS will compete with around 10+ models in the entry luxury/luxury sport category. There is a large piece of pie at stake here.
****Don't forget about the possibility of the IS460 or IS500 > cross your fingers
http://www.lexus.ca/lexus/experience/en/home/vehicles/specs/BE262T2006/specs_features.jsp?- model=BE262T&year=2006
Some other's make no sense.
I mean come on get real. What do you expect from a *luxury* badge? Do you expect a kit car to come out of a *luxury* brand's showroom? Well, that is basically what some of you are looking for. As I said, it seems like some are barking up the wrong tree. If you're looking for pure sport, you're not going to find it at Lexus, Mercedes, Infiniti, or in most of BMW's line, and especially among the regular BMW 3-series models. Come on, harping on and on about carmakers losing touch with what a sports sedan is supposed to be. harping about the added weight airbags bring and how it takes away from the *sport* factor. As I said go buy a Evo or STi. Better yet, buy a Kit car!!
Again, you're giving this B.S. about the IS being a marshmallow puff, and this and that. Let me ask you something...have you driven the IS??? Okay, right....then give it a rest with the predictions of it being a marshmallow puff on the road and this and that. The last IS didn't come with a stick at the start either, was it's handling marshmallow puff??? Did it's handling all of a sudden become sporty just by adding the stick??? I think not!
As for the IS, as I've said before, Lexus did some things right with the original, but they made a lot of mistakes too. The new car corrects all of those mistakes. If it preserves what the original did right, they'll have a winner. Also keep in mind that the ES is not sold in markets that dont have the Camry, so the IS is Lexus' only entry-lux car in those markets. There wasnt much luxury in the original, so its easy to see why buyers ignored it for A4s and BMWs.
"However, as engine output has not yet been finalised, Lexus could not give us exact figures. But not wanting to steer us in the wrong direction, chief engineer Suguya Fukusato told us we can expect to see the new line-up in showrooms generating around 165kW (221 hp) for the 2.5 litre and a hugely impressive 233kW (312 hp) for the 3.5 litre."
ps...im waiting for the IS (too intriguing) as well...PPSS yeah, i felt he, dealer, was just trying to sell me on it prematurely too....the IS is the best shot they have at really competing with the 3...the numbers are impressive.
Why not just do that with a G35? more power out of the box - 298 hp. and the vq is easily tunable too.
I think most of us complaining about weight would point to all players in this market. Anything over 3000 lbs is way too much. 2700-2800 lbs should be more than enough.
BTW, the WRX and Evo are ratty, econo cars. they're little more than compact cars with awd and turbo engines...no refinement, no balance, no thought given to supplying drivers with anything beyond massive power. no thanks.
That's an over-equipped 330i. A 330i with leather, sport package and metallic paint is 40k msrp. It comes with power seats, moonroof and xenons standard. What more does one need? Active cruise? Junk. Active steering? trash. Navi? total bling bling. 40k gets you a ready to rumble 330i with some luxury bits.
if lexus wants to impress the LUX sports sedan market...they will offer the IS (which sounds great on paper) very very well equipped below 40k...
Well at minimum the is350 is gonna be a 35k car before xenons and moonroof (both so far are listed as options).
For me, I am waiting to test drive an IS350. I think 310HP 280Ib ft of torque, nice exterior and equally nice list of goodies will make me easily forget the spartan, Banglized e90 Bimmer real quick. Man does not live on performance alone, you know ! Some of us gotta have our nice features while we drive, afterall we spend plenty of time in our cars, we might as well make it as comfortable as we can. See, I own an LS already, what does that tell ya ??? Luxury is the name of the game for me, splice that with some sporty handling in a nice small/compact IS, and I am game. I figure the IS will nicely complement the big LS in my garage. That's me tho'.... If I need a stripped rocket pocket, I'd buy the WRX at $30K and be done with it.
I won't write it off until I've driven it. I had written off BMW too...bound and determined not to buy one and to buy a japanese car. Life takes strange turns.
Even now, there is a part of me screaming 06 MX-5, 06/07 GTI, 06 A3, Mazdaspeed3. I'm still looking for something I like more than the e90. Official word of an M3 sedan could get me to go for something else too for the shortterm.