Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

imidazol97

oldfarmer50 said:

That’s why you won’t see too many old farmers plowing with electric tractors.

I think the government should try stimulating (subsidizing) use of solar panels and windmills on tractors to avoid any use of ground fuels.

imidazol97

An obnoxious car guy on a radio show called carpros said that the Hyundai G70 would likely be car of the year for the NAIAS. He was going on and on about how great it is. I'll have to listen next Saturday to see what he says about his error.

Irony is I was listening to his California based show on Detroit AM 760. LOL Right there in Motor City.

snakeweasel

imidazol97 said:

That’s why you won’t see too many old farmers plowing with electric tractors.

I think the government should try stimulating (subsidizing) use of solar panels and windmills on tractors to avoid any use of ground fuels.

No, he should just go Amish and use horses. That way he could plow and fertilize his land at the same time.

stickguy

stopped today for gas after coming home from visiting family. stopped at a BP station that was pretty cheap. $207.9 in big green letters. When I got to the pump, I think they had the biggest spread I ever saw. That was RUG. Premium was $299.9, and mid grade was $279.9.

dino001

stickguy said:

stopped today for gas after coming home from visiting family. stopped at a BP station that was pretty cheap. $207.9 in big green letters. When I got to the pump, I think they had the biggest spread I ever saw. That was RUG. Premium was $299.9, and mid grade was $279.9.

Wow, never seen such a spread. It's crept up in last 15 years pretty significantly from just a few cents to 30-50 cents, but this one is huge. I think it's the proliferation of turbocharged engines requiring premium gas. It used to be that only premium German cars ans a small handful of others required premium (mostly high compression ratio naturally aspirated engines and high boost turbos), now more and more "normal" downmarket models "recommend", or even require premium gas and the gas additive oligopoly figured out they can charge more for it.

oldfarmer50

snakeweasel said:

imidazol97 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

That’s why you won’t see too many old farmers plowing with electric tractors.

I think the government should try stimulating (subsidizing) use of solar panels and windmills on tractors to avoid any use of ground fuels.

No, he should just go Amish and use horses. That way he could plow and fertilize his land at the same time.

Well you do get that instant torque from a horse.

qbrozen

stickguy said:

stopped today for gas after coming home from visiting family. stopped at a BP station that was pretty cheap. $207.9 in big green letters. When I got to the pump, I think they had the biggest spread I ever saw. That was RUG. Premium was $299.9, and mid grade was $279.9.

Damn! I think you need to find another station. $300 a gallon is nuts! ;b

henryn

dino001 said:

Wow, never seen such a spread. It's crept up in last 15 years pretty significantly from just a few cents to 30-50 cents, but this one is huge. I think it's the proliferation of turbocharged engines requiring premium gas. It used to be that only premium German cars ans a small handful of others required premium (mostly high compression ratio naturally aspirated engines and high boost turbos), now more and more "normal" downmarket models "recommend", or even require premium gas and the gas additive oligopoly figured out they can charge more for it.

I don't think there's any deep dark conspiracy (oligopoly??) going on here. Places like HEB and Costco have the smallest spread, and they are selling tier 1 gasoline, with tier 1 additives, so I would attribute this to greed on the part of the service station operators. I have heard before that some stations sell regular at little or no profit, and just rely on premium to make all of their profits.

Moral of this story: If you really need 93 octane, shop carefully.

Mr_Shiftright

oldfarmer50 said:

snakeweasel said:

imidazol97 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

That’s why you won’t see too many old farmers plowing with electric tractors.

I think the government should try stimulating (subsidizing) use of solar panels and windmills on tractors to avoid any use of ground fuels.

No, he should just go Amish and use horses. That way he could plow and fertilize his land at the same time.

Well you do get that instant torque from a horse.

Yeah but only 1 horsepower.

driver100

Mr_Shiftright said:

oldfarmer50 said:

snakeweasel said:

imidazol97 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

That’s why you won’t see too many old farmers plowing with electric tractors.

I think the government should try stimulating (subsidizing) use of solar panels and windmills on tractors to avoid any use of ground fuels.

No, he should just go Amish and use horses. That way he could plow and fertilize his land at the same time.

Well you do get that instant torque from a horse.

Yeah but only 1 horsepower.

They just have to figure out how to add a turbocharger.

Mr_Shiftright

We could ram more air into the horse but I don't know about engineering more oats. Larger feed bag?

I read where Tesla is scrambling to sell as many cars as possible now that their tax breaks are going to be cut in half in 2019. It's possible that their sales will slacken.

driver100

stickguy said:

stopped today for gas after coming home from visiting family. stopped at a BP station that was pretty cheap. $207.9 in big green letters. When I got to the pump, I think they had the biggest spread I ever saw. That was RUG. Premium was $299.9, and mid grade was $279.9.

That's like manspread only it is gas spread!
Price around my way is $1.99, I use premium,usually never look at the price I pay....I like to think it is $1.99.
The C250 gets 29 mpg mostly highway.
Guess cars get better mileage if they run on premium....everything has it's price. Or, put another way, what if I did use RUG.....would my mileage go down?

laurasdada

$2.56 PUG at Costco last night, .40/gal more than RUG.

Either Tesla has really ramped up production, or my local dealer is getting a huge allotment; a couple of local dealers were purchased by a local conglomerate and shuttered for a bit. Now, the lots are housing hundreds of new Teslas! About 4 miles from the actual showroom. Still, BEV not for me.

Mr_Shiftright

I'd certainly consider an EV as a second car when the prices come down to around $16K.

henryn

driver100 said:

Price around my way is $1.99, I use premium,usually never look at the price I pay....I like to think it is $1.99.
The C250 gets 29 mpg mostly highway.
Guess cars get better mileage if they run on premium....everything has it's price. Or, put another way, what if I did use RUG.....would my mileage go down?

If the engine is tuned to run on the higher octane, it should get slightly better MPG and slightly more horsepower. If it is not tuned to take advantage of the 93 octane, there would likely be zero difference.

In any case, the difference would not likely be enough to cover the difference in cost. I have used 93 octane in the past when the manufacturer stated that I should. Not 100% sure that I needed to, or that it was worth it, but just for the peace of mind. The same way that I run the oil type that the manufacturer recommends (viscosity, certifications, etc). Probably not necessary, but peace of mind.

dino001

henryn said:

I don't think there's any deep dark conspiracy (oligopoly??) going on here. Places like HEB and Costco have the smallest spread, and they are selling tier 1 gasoline, with tier 1 additives, so I would attribute this to greed on the part of the service station operators. I have heard before that some stations sell regular at little or no profit, and just rely on premium to make all of their profits. Moral of this story: If you really need 93 octane, shop carefully.

It's possible. By calling it an oligopoly, I did not mean a conspiracy - rather just stating a fact that the production and sales of those additives is controlled by a small number of companies, especially on each regional level. Many states got themselves into a "boutique" blends (unique requirements that gasoline from other states cannot pass), making them dependent on one or two specific refineries. All of that makes that perhaps a benign oligopoly, but it is such, nevertheless.

dino001

driver100 said:

Price around my way is $1.99, I use premium,usually never look at the price I pay....I like to think it is $1.99.
The C250 gets 29 mpg mostly highway.
Guess cars get better mileage if they run on premium....everything has it's price. Or, put another way, what if I did use RUG.....would my mileage go down?

$1.99 is for RUG here in Tampa. PUG is $2.50sh, $1.92/$2.25, respectively at my Costco.
And yes, your mileage would suffer if you put RUG into your C250. Not sure by how much. There are also possible adverse effects on the engine, but again hard to quantify extent and risk. I don't second guess my BMWs, as I didn't my previous WRX and STI. Have been a PUG man since 2003.

driver100

dino001 said:

driver100 said:

Price around my way is $1.99, I use premium,usually never look at the price I pay....I like to think it is $1.99.
The C250 gets 29 mpg mostly highway.
Guess cars get better mileage if they run on premium....everything has it's price. Or, put another way, what if I did use RUG.....would my mileage go down?

$1.99 is for RUG here in Tampa. PUG is $2.50sh, $1.89/$2.25, respectively at my Costco.
And yes, your mileage would suffer if you put RUG into your C250. Not sure by how much.

Thanks dino.....like henryn said........I could try it, but not worth ruining an engine over saving a few $buck$s.
From everything I have read, using PUG if the manufacturer specifies you can use RUG is a waste of money.

ab348

I have the opposite problem when I go to buy gasoline. Both my 2011 Regal and my 2014 ATS had turbo 4 engines that required premium fuel. Now my current ATS has the 3.6 which only calls for regular. But I feel odd pumping regular into it. So as often as not I will fill it with premium. Shoot me now.

stickguy

Acura recommends, does not require, PUG. I read a lot on-line and even dealers say it is not a big deal which you use, especially on the V6. If there is any dialing back of power, I never noticed it (and likely it is at high enough RPMs I never get into that part of the mapping). I even did a couple of comparisons (same run, PUG vs. RUG) and actually got better MPG on RUG. Remains to be seen if the TLX cares.

I do use PUG sometimes, when a station has a more reasonable spread. I filled up in NY this week at a Sunoco that was only about 30 cents (maybe 40) bump to go to premium.

a day like today, no way was I spending an extra $12 for a tank likely to get burned in stop and go traffic!

oldfarmer50

driver100 said:

stickguy said:

stopped today for gas after coming home from visiting family. stopped at a BP station that was pretty cheap. $207.9 in big green letters. When I got to the pump, I think they had the biggest spread I ever saw. That was RUG. Premium was $299.9, and mid grade was $279.9.

That's like manspread only it is gas spread!
Price around my way is $1.99, I use premium,usually never look at the price I pay....I like to think it is $1.99.
The C250 gets 29 mpg mostly highway.
Guess cars get better mileage if they run on premium....everything has it's price. Or, put another way, what if I did use RUG.....would my mileage go down?

I don’t think octane effects mileage but it does effect performance. On the Mustang they said premium is recommended but you could use regular if you wanted to accept a 5% horsepower hit. I suppose it would effect gas mileage if you stepped on the gas harder to get your usual performance.

Most modern cars will adjust themselves to run on regular. My company’s policy is that we put regular in all cars regardless of recommendation because the computer will compensate.

tifighter

Mr_Shiftright said:

We could ram more air into the horse but I don't know about engineering more oats. Larger feed bag?

I read where Tesla is scrambling to sell as many cars as possible now that their tax breaks are going to be cut in half in 2019. It's possible that their sales will slacken.

Sales will be fine. Why? China and Europe haven't received a single Model 3 yet. And in the US, they haven't leased a single one, which is the norm for the class. And the lower priced standard range model will happen in 2019.

pensfan83

We put PUG in all of our cars. 1 car requires it, 1 car recommends it, and 1 doesn't require it however rather than sweat over a few dollars we just put premium in all of them.

Mr_Shiftright

tifighter said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

We could ram more air into the horse but I don't know about engineering more oats. Larger feed bag?

I read where Tesla is scrambling to sell as many cars as possible now that their tax breaks are going to be cut in half in 2019. It's possible that their sales will slacken.

Sales will be fine. Why? China and Europe haven't received a single Model 3 yet. And in the US, they haven't leased a single one, which is the norm for the class. And the lower priced standard range model will happen in 2019.

I've long since ceased to believe anything Tesla has to say about its "future talk". I believe in actual numbers, either in sales, or on the window sticker.

You can lease an S or X, so I'd imagine leasing a 3 will be along soon enough.

28firefighter

All our cars require and get PUG. 

suydam

When I leased my Volt, the $7500 was deducted from the price. So I did get the full amount.

explorerx4

@stickguy,
My guess is there was that big spread between RUG and the other grades because they haven't refilled those tanks recently.
I checked gasbuddy the other day in the morning and PUG was $2.999, when I go to the station in the afternoon it was $2.919.
I'm experimenting putting PUG in the truck. It will be a while before I refill it, as estimated range was over 600 miles when I filled up.

tlong

Mr_Shiftright said:

We could ram more air into the horse but I don't know about engineering more oats. Larger feed bag?

I hear that the valves on horses are tempermental; they tend to let loose on the back end at the worst possible times.

houdini2

In the olden days an old farmer was walking down the road when a guy driving a sports car stopped and gave him a ride. The sports car took off like a bat out of hell and the farmer asked him why he was going so fast. The driver said the faster he went the cooler his car ran. When the farmer got home he saddled up his horse and took off at top speed across the fields. Pretty soon the old horse stopped and dropped dead. The farmer looked the horse over and said, huh, must have froze to death.

explorerx4

@oldfarm50,
C&D just finished up a 40k road test of a Soul. Their's had a turbo, but they recommended getting one of the less pricy/sporty models.

oldfarmer50

pensfan83 said:

We put PUG in all of our cars. 1 car requires it, 1 car recommends it, and 1 doesn't require it however rather than sweat over a few dollars we just put premium in all of them.

I run premium only in the performance car because I want the most out if it. The other three get regular and they run just fine.

oldfarmer50

explorerx4 said:

@oldfarm50,
C&D just finished up a 40k road test of a Soul. Their's had a turbo, but they recommended getting one of the less pricy/sporty models.

I think I read that one. Is that the review where they complained about the glitchy dual clutch 7 speed? I like the idea of a turbo with 200+ hp but the price is up there into sports car territory and the exclaim trim is very rare. Only one in a three county area.

The ones I’ve driven for Enterprise are all plus models with the 2.0L which impressed me as being a well rounded vehicle for power, handling and comfort.

henryn

oldfarmer50 said:

I think I read that one. Is that the review where they complained about the glitchy dual clutch 7 speed? I like the idea of a turbo with 200+ hp but the price is up there into sports car territory and the exclaim trim is very rare. Only one in a three county area.

The ones I’ve driven for Enterprise are all plus models with the 2.0L which impressed me as being a well rounded vehicle for power, handling and comfort.

I just checked the web page for my local dealer. 11 of the Exclaim (turbo) models. 10 of those right around $20.1 to $20.4, and one at $23.1 (probably with the Technology package).

henryn

If I were buying one for my own use, there is no way I would not buy the turbo. Buying it as a first car for a new teenage driver or some such, different story.

snakeweasel

Mr_Shiftright said:

I'd certainly consider an EV as a second car when the prices come down to around $16K.

If you got an EV would you change your handle?

qbrozen

explorerx4 said:

@oldfarm50, C&D just finished up a 40k road test of a Soul. Their's had a turbo, but they recommended getting one of the less pricy/sporty models.

Is that “less pricy AND less sporty”? I mean, they can’t possibly saying they are sporty, right?

explorerx4

@qbrozen,
I don't think they were saying a Soul is sporty, more like the less sporty ones (no turbo and DCT) are ok.

berri

My BIL has an MDX and never really noticed or felt any difference between the fuels. IIRC using premium in a RUG engine can actually make cold weather starting more difficult in winter. Also, I think any knocking or pinging can be a sign you may need a higher octane gasoline. Not sure things like STP are a good alternative in today's complex engines?

oldfarmer50

henryn said:

oldfarmer50 said:

I think I read that one. Is that the review where they complained about the glitchy dual clutch 7 speed? I like the idea of a turbo with 200+ hp but the price is up there into sports car territory and the exclaim trim is very rare. Only one in a three county area.

The ones I’ve driven for Enterprise are all plus models with the 2.0L which impressed me as being a well rounded vehicle for power, handling and comfort.

I just checked the web page for my local dealer. 11 of the Exclaim (turbo) models. 10 of those right around $20.1 to $20.4, and one at $23.1 (probably with the Technology package).

Almost none up here but I like that price. Makes the NY dealers look like crooks. What’s the doc fee?

I’m not sure I’d trust a dual clutch system in an econo car. Look at the mess Ford had with the 2012-16 Focus. The resale of a 16 vs a 17 is shocking.

oldfarmer50

qbrozen said:

explorerx4 said:

@oldfarm50,
C&D just finished up a 40k road test of a Soul. Their's had a turbo, but they recommended getting one of the less pricy/sporty models.

Is that “less pricy AND less sporty”? I mean, they can’t possibly saying they are sporty, right?

That’s a good point. The car is good for what it is but what it is...is a grocery getter, not a race car.

stickguy

that is the drivetrain my elantra sport had. The trans definitely felt different but worked really well in that application, since it was tuned for sport not economy (though it got great economy too). But, if the base car has enough juice for you, save the money and go that way.

They had some issues (I think with the Tucson) when the 1.6t/DSG combo was released, but it was software related IIRC. basically trying to jump to and stay in a higher gear as much as possible. No different than many normal slushboxes. The sport was tuned much differently. I never had an issue with it, though I actually liked (nostalgia!!) when it acted like a manual trans at lower speeds.

explorerx4

Nothing the matter with a vehicle not being sporty. Just about every modern vehicle has adequate power and handling.

tjc78

explorerx4 said:

Nothing the matter with a vehicle not being sporty. Just about every modern vehicle has adequate power and handling.

I will agree with that.  As much as I complain about my Elantra being slow it would blow the doors off most 70s / 80s cars.  

henryn

oldfarmer50 said:

henryn said:

oldfarmer50 said:

I think I read that one. Is that the review where they complained about the glitchy dual clutch 7 speed? I like the idea of a turbo with 200+ hp but the price is up there into sports car territory and the exclaim trim is very rare. Only one in a three county area.

The ones I’ve driven for Enterprise are all plus models with the 2.0L which impressed me as being a well rounded vehicle for power, handling and comfort.

I just checked the web page for my local dealer. 11 of the Exclaim (turbo) models. 10 of those right around $20.1 to $20.4, and one at $23.1 (probably with the Technology package).

Almost none up here but I like that price. Makes the NY dealers look like crooks. What’s the doc fee?

I can't speak for that particular dealer, but when I'm estimating in order to make my "take it or leave it offer", I take the advertised price, add 6.25% for sales tax, and $300 for title transfer, license plates, and doc fees. That nearly always covers things nicely. The exceptions I find on new cars are for the dealer add-ons (mop and glo). If that happens, I stick by my "take it or leave it" offer. Usually they take it.

Now for the used car side of the equation, yes, I have encountered absolutely crazy mandatory fees. Central Nissan, about 2 years ago, tried to hit me with a $1,600 dealer fee of some kind on a used minivan. When I got through telling them, in a very loud voice, exactly what I thought of that they were very happy to see me leave. (smile)

driver100

oldfarmer50 said:

qbrozen said:

explorerx4 said:

@oldfarm50,
C&D just finished up a 40k road test of a Soul. Their's had a turbo, but they recommended getting one of the less pricy/sporty models.

Is that “less pricy AND less sporty”? I mean, they can’t possibly saying they are sporty, right?

That’s a good point. The car is good for what it is but what it is...is a grocery getter, not a race car.

The Souls I see on the road are usually passing me and fitting into any spaces they can to get ahead on the highway....people drive them like sports cars.

driver100

tjc78 said:

explorerx4 said:

Nothing the matter with a vehicle not being sporty. Just about every modern vehicle has adequate power and handling.

I will agree with that.  As much as I complain about my Elantra being slow it would blow the doors off most 70s / 80s cars

.  

Tjc, how many 70s and 80s cars are you racing?

One thing I noticed, I sometimes like to get a quick start say at a light. There might be an aggressive guy in his jacked up pick up truck behind me, or I need to move one lane over and I want to get the jump on the car next to me. Or, I just want to get ahead of the pack and get some space. I am surprised that 80 to 90% of the time I can get a big jump on the competition next to me or behind me.......and that is with the little 4 and a turbo in the C250. I am amazed at the power that little engine has......from a standing start or from about 20 mph....of course there is major turbo lag from about 5 mph to 18 mph.

stickguy

I grabbed this random example. I am sure the Elantra 2.0 is quicker, though I bet the Camaro sounds better!

1975 Chevrolet Camaro (350ci) Compare Car 0-60 mph 10.9

snakeweasel

tjc78 said:

explorerx4 said:

Nothing the matter with a vehicle not being sporty. Just about every modern vehicle has adequate power and handling.

I will agree with that.  As much as I complain about my Elantra being slow it would blow the doors off most 70s / 80s cars.  

That's not saying much as the 70's were known for having anemic cars. I'm pretty sure our 2011 sonata would give a mid 70's Corvette a run for it's money.

snakeweasel

oldfarmer50 said:

I’m not sure I’d trust a dual clutch system in an econo car. Look at the mess Ford had with the 2012-16 Focus. The resale of a 16 vs a 17 is shocking.

I wouldn't worry about a dual clutch in an economy car, I would be more concerned with the technological expertise and experience of the transmissions builder.

tjc78

snakeweasel said:

explorerx4 said:

Nothing the matter with a vehicle not being sporty. Just about every modern vehicle has adequate power and handling.

I will agree with that.  As much as I complain about my Elantra being slow it would blow the doors off most 70s / 80s cars.  

That's not saying much as the 70's were known for having anemic cars. I'm pretty sure our 2011 sonata would give a mid 70's Corvette a run for it's money.

My point is what we consider slow today was actually quick during those times.