Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

jmonroe

abacomike said:

On my way home from my walk in the mall, I stopped off at the local Walmart to pick up a few items I forgot to buy when I went food shopping last Friday.  My first stop was to the lavatory - the diuretics I take work pretty well.  I parked my empty food cart near the lav and walked in.  The stench from urine and other bodily emissions was so bad I had to leave without using the facilities.

As much as I save by purchasing most of my food at the Walmart Super Store, that could be my last shopping trip to Walmart.  From now on, I'll do my shopping at the Publix down the street from me.  Just thinking about that experience turns my stomach. 

You should have told the manager about it just to see how they would handle that situation.

jmonroe

jmonroe

oldfarmer50 said:

graphicguy said:

bwia said:

graphicguy said:

A little news on the CTS......dealership guys came to pick up the loaner CT6 yesterday. Said before, pretty nice car. Not for $70K, but maybe $10K-$15K less. Plus, any minute sense of trusting Cadillac after the latest fiasco has dissapated.

One of the drivers (one guy dropped another guy off to pick it up) was one of the service writers. When he came to my door to get the keys, he appologized for all the craziness I have been put through (his word..."craziness"). He said this week is his last week at the dealership. He said he really needed to do something else.

I didn't really get into it with him, but I did wish him well. He and I had spent quite a bit of time talking in the past. He knew of ALL the troubles I had with Cadillac.

Anyway, he said there were things going on in the background that I should know, but wasn't privy to. OK, now I'm intrigued.

Paraphrasing, Cadillac had known about the wiring harness issue for months. Instead of a recall, the dealers were supposed to do a temporary fix with zip ties until GM could come up with a solution. This was only supposed to be done IF CUSTOMERS KNEW ABOUT IT AND COMPLAINED. Problem was, the zip ties wouldn't hold and would melt or rub away, also. The whole wiring harness issue was a result of fitting the new 8-speed trans that was built by GM and rerouting some of the exhaust (which resulted in a lower HP rating for the 2.0t).

When I asked him why they told me, instead of waiting for me to complain, he said he raised the issue given the amount of trouble I had with Cadillac. He felt he was being pro-active and doing "what was right". He didn't say it, but I got the impression he may have caught some hell over letting me know of the issue in my car.

Anyway, Cadillac did indeed tell the dealership to "rush" the repair with zip ties given the amount of time it was in their service bay. And, that the authorization to complete the zip tie repair, would only pay for ONE drivetrain removal and insertion. That tells me they did not want me to know about the permanent fix because of the unavailability of parts.

Problem was, the zip ties only held for about ¼ mile as I drove the "repaired" CTS away from the dealership. Further, they couldn't do the reinstall of the drivetrain correctly because GM didn't alott them enough hours. He said he wasn't sure what happened regarding that, but the result was a rush job (that took nearly two months) that resulted in me returning the CTS to the dealership immediately.

Now, the same parts (the ones I was originally told wouldn't be avialble to perhaps well into March, are still aren't available.

He said the dealership doesn't know what to do with my car. They can't fix it. GM is telling them to keep quiet about it. He's leaving the dealership, so didn't care, but thought I should know.

I didn't think GM could be any more despicable in my eyes, but they've succeeded in stooping even lower.

Meanwhile, the BBB and Cadillac Customer Service are sitting on their hands.

GM bashing? Better believe it. Deserved? Absolutely!

GG, I haven't been following your saga very closely. So, is this the end of the story? Did you get your money back or are they offering you yet another CTS?

My son-in-law had a similar scenario with Volvo. The dealership just could not fix the anomaly. That recurring problem was resolved when the fourth vehicle, an S80 caught fire and was totaled. The insurance company settled for full value. End of story, end of Volvo is his garage.

Unfortunately, no...not the end...not by any stretch. Cadillac and the BBB will drag this out as long as possible. BBB has had the case for well over a month. They've gone silent (first they lost the paperwork I sent them, then they said they had to give GM "ample time to respond". Their definition of ample time is different than the rest of the world, obviously.

I'm trying to get this to arbitration. Obviously, GM doesn't want that as they keep dragging their feet to get the case resolved.

Attorney General won't look at it until BBB makes a (non) move on the case.

My other alternative is to hire my own attorney, and pay him/her out of pocket and recoup legal costs after the case is decided.

So, we're a ways away from getting this resolved. I'm going the distance with it, though.

Make sure you get the ex-employee's phone number. He would be gold in a court case.

It would be nice if that happened but in court I'm sure the dealer would say the guy was terminated for cause and that is why he is now a disgruntled employee.

Furthermore, if the guy is moving onto another dealership he would be doomed. Those owners are as thick as old oil on a cold morning when it comes to that kind of stuff.

jmonroe

jmonroe

abacomike said:

jmonroe said:

andres3 said:

jmonroe said:

venture said:

qbrozen said:

You just never know.

I had an entertaining episode on the NJ Turnpike a few weeks ago. An 18-wheeler was coming down an entrance ramp maybe an 1/8th mile ahead of me. I had nobody around me (thankfully) and was in the middle lane. As the truck enters the highway, he turns much harder to the left than needed and begins to cross through the right lane into the middle lane. I quickly juke to the left but see, by the angle of his tires, it appears he will be continuing all the way to the left lane or possibly the barrier. As I'm standing on my brake, I make a quick course correction back to the middle lane as my Volvo screeches its tires right and then left like a slalom skier. The truck then starts to swerve right again. I quickly slalom to the right lane, again with much drama from the tires. As I see daylight up ahead and another vehicle is coming down that ramp, I gun it and squirt through. This was all a matter of maybe 10 secs, but felt far far longer, of course.

Anyway, the point to my story is that others on the road can cause you to do some really crazy stuff with your vehicle. I could have easily lost control. I believe my autocross experience saved me in this particular instance since I avoided overcorrection and held steady until the car regained traction each time.

Great googally moogally!

I've credited my previous autocross experiences for a few near hits too.

Man, you guys with autocross experience sure are the lucky ones to have been able to learn from that. Me, I never did autocrossing. It's damn good thing I had cars with good "driving dynamics".

FWIW, Son #1 did autocrossing for about a year. Did it in the parking lot of the old VW plant in New Stanton PA after they shut down. That's where he killed his first car, a '91 Grand Prix V8, that he bought after getting out of Penn State. I was living in SC at the time and when visiting one time watched him while he was killing it. By the time I moved back to PA in early '07 he had finished it off completely. Got both the engine and tranny. I never could understand how mashing the accelerator pedal and then the brake pedal could have been good for a car. Maybe the driver but not the car.

The ironic part of doing his autocrossing at the old VW plant is that about 3 years later he worked at that place when Sony moved in. He said almost every time he got close to the area of the parking lot where he did his autocrossing, he got a weird cold feeling.

I guess you can say that he learned too late but I knew all along that ain't good for a car.

jmonroe

You know the old saying "if you got it, flaunt it!"? I think that applies to cars. If they can handle being driven dynamically, then you must (you have a duty to) drive them dynamically. If you don't, you "use it or lose it." Wide open throttle cures a lot of ailments. An Audi that has been driven like a Camry is sick, feeble, and out of shape. Probably needs a fuel system cleaning.

I'd have to be smoking or snorting some top of the line stuff to believe that.

jmonroe

I've never smoked or snorted any top of the line weed or drug, but I've swallowed some great top of the line Bourbons and Cognacs - wonder if there is any relationship between/among them?  

I wouldn't know but you otta ask @driver100 to research it.

jmonroe

abacomike

jmonroe said:

On my way home from my walk in the mall, I stopped off at the local Walmart to pick up a few items I forgot to buy when I went food shopping last Friday.  My first stop was to the lavatory - the diuretics I take work pretty well.  I parked my empty food cart near the lav and walked in.  The stench from urine and other bodily emissions was so bad I had to leave without using the facilities.

As much as I save by purchasing most of my food at the Walmart Super Store, that could be my last shopping trip to Walmart.  From now on, I'll do my shopping at the Publix down the street from me.  Just thinking about that experience turns my stomach. 

You should have told the manager about it just to see how they would handle that situation. jmonroe

I did, JM, and was told the lavs are cleaned every hour.  Hard to believe that from the conditions I found in there.

andres3

ab348 said:

andres3 said:

I think you are noticing a pattern of repeated behavior taught from one generation on down to the next at GM. I don't believe it is a coincidence, and I stand by my review that not enough heads were rolled out the door during the bankruptcy period of 2008-2010.

Yes, I imagine the person who designed the wiring harness for GG's Caddy is the grandchild of the one who designed the Firenza's electrical system in Luton in 1969. Nepotism must run very deep within the corporation, huh?

Who's talking about nepotism, not me!

Managers mentoring their underlings, and teach them the bad way of doing business. It's just how it has always been done. It is the culture of the company, and it is a very hard thing to change. Somebody had to teach these employees the standard operating procedure after all.

andres3

ab348 said:

imidazol97 said:

andres3 said:

What's good for Government Motors is good for America!

The "Government Motors" term is a political term. Perhaps suitable in other discussions that are about politics.

You cannot reason with certain people.

I actually agree it could be construed as a political term. Sort of like Obamacare instead of the ACA.

So that's not what GM stands for?

Okay, General Motors, or is it General Motors II Inc., since they aren't liable for the previous GM?

andres3

oldfarmer50 said:

ab348 said:

driver100 said:

All brands probably have their share of outright lemons, but it seems GM has had more than their fair share, and the way they treat their customers doesn't seem to have changed from these examples to the way GG has been treated. They first cut them off, shut them up, and then ignore them like they don't exist.

Well, both you and GG had Audis that were problematic. You took a haircut on yours while GG, I believe, did one of his buybacks. He seems much more tolerant than you because he was looking at them again along with other brands he has had bad experiences with in the past. It's taken 4 Caddys for him to swear them off.

You just got to learn to let go of things, bro.

I just heard that some survey just came out listing Audi as #1 in reliability. Kind of suprised.

Don't blame me for the results, I've been too lazy to fill out and send back either CR or JDP's surveys the last couple years.

Mr_Shiftright

oldfarmer50 said:

ab348 said:

driver100 said:

All brands probably have their share of outright lemons, but it seems GM has had more than their fair share, and the way they treat their customers doesn't seem to have changed from these examples to the way GG has been treated. They first cut them off, shut them up, and then ignore them like they don't exist.

Well, both you and GG had Audis that were problematic. You took a haircut on yours while GG, I believe, did one of his buybacks. He seems much more tolerant than you because he was looking at them again along with other brands he has had bad experiences with in the past. It's taken 4 Caddys for him to swear them off.

You just got to learn to let go of things, bro.

I just heard that some survey just came out listing Audi as #1 in reliability. Kind of suprised.

I wonder what survey that was. JD Power Dependability Survey for 2017 puts Audi mid-pack, one below Cadillac. Of course this was for owners of 2014 cars, soooooo.....a survey of newer Audis might show something different.

cdnpinhead

abacomike said:

Cdnpinhead - I don't understand your post - forgive me for my shortcomings.  

Not you I'm talking about. Party on.

abacomike

cdnpinhead said:

Cdnpinhead - I don't understand your post - forgive me for my shortcomings.  

Not you I'm talking about. Party on.

I did not mean you were addressing me - I just couldn't (still can't) understand the impetus for the comment.

jmonroe

abacomike said:

jmonroe said:

abacomike said:

On my way home from my walk in the mall, I stopped off at the local Walmart to pick up a few items I forgot to buy when I went food shopping last Friday.  My first stop was to the lavatory - the diuretics I take work pretty well.  I parked my empty food cart near the lav and walked in.  The stench from urine and other bodily emissions was so bad I had to leave without using the facilities.

As much as I save by purchasing most of my food at the Walmart Super Store, that could be my last shopping trip to Walmart.  From now on, I'll do my shopping at the Publix down the street from me.  Just thinking about that experience turns my stomach. 

You should have told the manager about it just to see how they would handle that situation.

jmonroe

I did, JM, and was told the lavs are cleaned every hour.  Hard to believe that from the conditions I found in there.

You give up too easily. I would have said, "then do it every half hour".

That's what I told a manager one time when I heard the script response, "they are cleaned every hour".

jmonroe

fordfool

@graphicguy Unfortunately, no...not the end...not by any stretch. Cadillac and the BBB
will drag this out as long as possible. BBB has had the case for well over a month.

Just wondering... what is the retail value of a 2016 Cadillac CTS vs. the auction value
of the same car with a lemon branded title. Seems to me that's the gamble that G.M.
is taking.

driver100

jmonroe said:

abacomike said:

jmonroe said:

andres3 said:

jmonroe said:

venture said:

qbrozen said:

You just never know.

I had an entertaining episode on the NJ Turnpike a few weeks ago. An 18-wheeler was coming down an entrance ramp maybe an 1/8th mile ahead of me. I had nobody around me (thankfully) and was in the middle lane. As the truck enters the highway, he turns much harder to the left than needed and begins to cross through the right lane into the middle lane. I quickly juke to the left but see, by the angle of his tires, it appears he will be continuing all the way to the left lane or possibly the barrier. As I'm standing on my brake, I make a quick course correction back to the middle lane as my Volvo screeches its tires right and then left like a slalom skier. The truck then starts to swerve right again. I quickly slalom to the right lane, again with much drama from the tires. As I see daylight up ahead and another vehicle is coming down that ramp, I gun it and squirt through. This was all a matter of maybe 10 secs, but felt far far longer, of course.

Anyway, the point to my story is that others on the road can cause you to do some really crazy stuff with your vehicle. I could have easily lost control. I believe my autocross experience saved me in this particular instance since I avoided overcorrection and held steady until the car regained traction each time.

Great googally moogally!

I've credited my previous autocross experiences for a few near hits too.

Man, you guys with autocross experience sure are the lucky ones to have been able to learn from that. Me, I never did autocrossing. It's damn good thing I had cars with good "driving dynamics".

FWIW, Son #1 did autocrossing for about a year. Did it in the parking lot of the old VW plant in New Stanton PA after they shut down. That's where he killed his first car, a '91 Grand Prix V8, that he bought after getting out of Penn State. I was living in SC at the time and when visiting one time watched him while he was killing it. By the time I moved back to PA in early '07 he had finished it off completely. Got both the engine and tranny. I never could understand how mashing the accelerator pedal and then the brake pedal could have been good for a car. Maybe the driver but not the car.

The ironic part of doing his autocrossing at the old VW plant is that about 3 years later he worked at that place when Sony moved in. He said almost every time he got close to the area of the parking lot where he did his autocrossing, he got a weird cold feeling.

I guess you can say that he learned too late but I knew all along that ain't good for a car.

jmonroe

You know the old saying "if you got it, flaunt it!"? I think that applies to cars. If they can handle being driven dynamically, then you must (you have a duty to) drive them dynamically. If you don't, you "use it or lose it." Wide open throttle cures a lot of ailments. An Audi that has been driven like a Camry is sick, feeble, and out of shape. Probably needs a fuel system cleaning.

I'd have to be smoking or snorting some top of the line stuff to believe that.

jmonroe

I've never smoked or snorted any top of the line weed or drug, but I've swallowed some great top of the line Bourbons and Cognacs - wonder if there is any relationship between/among them?  

I wouldn't know but you otta ask @driver100 to research it.

jmonroe

I know absolutely nothing about weed, (wouldn't know it if I smelled it or saw it), drugs, or fine liquors......and I don't have much interest in the topic, so you will have to do your own research JM.

oldfarmer50

Mr_Shiftright said:

oldfarmer50 said:

ab348 said:

driver100 said:

All brands probably have their share of outright lemons, but it seems GM has had more than their fair share, and the way they treat their customers doesn't seem to have changed from these examples to the way GG has been treated. They first cut them off, shut them up, and then ignore them like they don't exist.

Well, both you and GG had Audis that were problematic. You took a haircut on yours while GG, I believe, did one of his buybacks. He seems much more tolerant than you because he was looking at them again along with other brands he has had bad experiences with in the past. It's taken 4 Caddys for him to swear them off.

You just got to learn to let go of things, bro.

I just heard that some survey just came out listing Audi as #1 in reliability. Kind of suprised.

I wonder what survey that was. JD Power Dependability Survey for 2017 puts Audi mid-pack, one below Cadillac. Of course this was for owners of 2014 cars, soooooo.....a survey of newer Audis might show something different.

I think it was Consumer Reports.

driver100

abacomike said:

jmonroe said:

abacomike said:

On my way home from my walk in the mall, I stopped off at the local Walmart to pick up a few items I forgot to buy when I went food shopping last Friday.  My first stop was to the lavatory - the diuretics I take work pretty well.  I parked my empty food cart near the lav and walked in.  The stench from urine and other bodily emissions was so bad I had to leave without using the facilities.

As much as I save by purchasing most of my food at the Walmart Super Store, that could be my last shopping trip to Walmart.  From now on, I'll do my shopping at the Publix down the street from me.  Just thinking about that experience turns my stomach. 

You should have told the manager about it just to see how they would handle that situation.

jmonroe

I did, JM, and was told the lavs are cleaned every hour.  Hard to believe that from the conditions I found in there.

We have a Walmart about 10 minutes away, and we use it if we need about 5 different items, like computer paper, a furnace filter, milk, a drugstore item, and a light bulb. But, for most groceries, I'd much rather pay an extra $10 or $20 a shopping trip and have a much more pleasant shopping experience.

driver100

I am interested in doing research to find other Cadillac CTS's that have similar problems as GGs. Can't find any, but, I did see this site from consumers affairs regarding Cadillacs.

Most buyers reviews are excellent, but, when there is a bad one they are really bad. One reoccurring theme in the bad reviews is there is absolutely no help from the company or from a customer service person.

This may be true of all or most car companies, it probably is. If it is it isn't right, Lemon Laws should be a lot easier to put into motion, and car companies should be more accountable for inferior products.

Consumer Affairs - Cadillac

cdnpinhead Cdnpinhead - I don't understand your post - forgive me for my shortcomings.

Not you I'm talking about. Party on

Do I qualify?

jmonroe

I have a story that is just the opposite of what @abacomike encountered at the Walmart restroom. I told this story long ago on one of the Edmunds forums but since the subject has come up again, I'll do a little repeat. What was that? I think that noise we just heard was @driver100 slamming his laptop shut.

Anyway here goes:

When we lived in SC Mrs. j wanted to know where to find some nice accent stuff for the house we just built vs. the everyday stuff you see everywhere. Not expensive things, just a little different than the ordinary. A few of our neighbors told her to go to a standalone place in the back of the Augusta Mall complex. So we went and while there, I had to use the boys room. It was amazingly clean, actually immaculate, smell and all. Just like you have in your own home. I asked to speak to the manager and the woman asked if she could help but I told her I wanted to speak to the manager myself.

I told the manager I was not going to complain but rather compliment him on a very clean men's room. He was very surprised and thanked me. He went on to say that the thing that bothers him most when he is out is dirty restrooms. Therefore, he told all of his employees to come to him when they notice the restrooms were getting dirty because he wanted to hear it from them rather than from customers. He thanked me again and I went off to find Mrs. j. When I caught up with her she wanted to know what we were talking about, so I told her. Every time we went to this store, at least 4 other times after that first visit, when the manager saw us he would come over to say hello. It got to the point when Mrs. j saw him coming in our direction she would say, "here comes your buddy".

Fast forward (just for you @driver100 ) to about 2 months after our first visit. Mrs. j was out doing herself this time with "nice stuff". There was a little more than $350 of "nice stuff" in our cart. Excuse me, HER cart, there wasn't a damn thing in that cart for me. She even found a discounted 6 x 8 foot rug that would "fit perfectly" in the foyer.

Finally, she is done shopping and we go to the checkout line. When we got to the head of the line I saw the woman wave to the manager. When everything is rung up, all of a sudden the total changes to a lower price. When I ask what just happened she said, "you got a discount per the managers direction". I still didn't know what had happened and she said, "here he comes now. He'll explain it to you". He said, "as you know, I've seen you in here a few times since your first visit but you made relatively small purchase then so I waited for you to make a larger purchase so this 15% discount would be more valuable". I never had anything like that happen before or since.

Not often but sometimes when I open my mouth I say the right thing.

jmonroe

roadburner

jmonroe said:

I guess you can say that he learned too late but I knew all along that ain't good for a car.

jmonroe

It depends on the car. HPDE sessions are a LOT tougher on a car than a few autocross runs. The only excess wear I've seen on my cars (Mazda and BMW) has been to the brake pads and tires. I see lots of makes and models at track events and cars like Corvettes, Mustang GTs, and other performance cars survive quite well. Frankly, if a year of autocrossing killed your son's car it was a complete and total piece of garbage the day it rolled off the assembly line.

jmonroe

roadburner said:

jmonroe said:

I guess you can say that he learned too late but I knew all along that ain't good for a car.

jmonroe

It depends on the car. HPDE sessions are a LOT tougher on a car than a few autocross runs. The only excess wear I've seen on my cars (Mazda and BMW) has been to the brake pads and tires. I see lots of makes and models at track events and cars like Corvettes, Mustang GTs, and other performance cars survive quite well. Frankly, if a year of autocrossing killed your son's car it was a complete and total piece of garbage the day it rolled off the assembly line.

Funny how he never had a problem with it until he tortured it doing autocrossing.

When he bought a '95 Trans Am to go tracking he never had engine of tranny problems with that car. He did buy lots of brakes and tires, though.

Explain to me how all gas then all brake in rapid succession will not have a detrimental effect on an engine or tranny in a car that was not specifically built for doing that.

jmonroe

roadburner

I have always despised the "Legal Disclaimer" that pops up on the main display every time you start a newer BMW. Worse, it requires you to "Confirm" by pushing the iDrive controller down. So, I did a little digging and found Bimmer-Tech.net- their solution to the problem; the company can send you a small coding file that is copied to a USB stick and downloaded to the car. End of the hated screen in my 2 Series. While I was at it I also had them send me coding to change the opening animation from "ConnectedDrive" to "M Sport" Mrs RB even thought it was cool:

jmonroe

roadburner said:

I have always despised the "Legal Disclaimer" that pops up on the main display every time you start a newer BMW. Worse, it requires you to "Confirm" by pushing the iDrive controller down. So, I did a little digging and found Bimmer-Tech.net- their solution to the problem; the company can send you a small coding file that is copied to a USB stick and downloaded to the car. End of the hated screen in my 2 Series. While I was at it I also had them send me coding to change the opening animation from "ConnectedDrive" to "M Sport" Mrs RB even thought it was cool:

I don't get how that is any better than the "Legal Disclaimer" screen. You still have to get rid of that screen to get to the screens you want displayed. All of it is a waste of time.

After the first time the "Legal Disclaimer" screen pops up nobody reads it again anyhow.

However, I am surprised that BMW allows the "Legal Disclaimer" screen to be overridden.

jmonroe

stickguy

my sonata does that when you turn it out. usual stuff about not using when driving, etc. and gives accept and reject buttons. If you hit accept, it goes away. But if you ignore it, after a few seconds, it goes away by itself. Basically by the time you are buckled in and ready to go, the screen has moved on. I don't even notice it at this point.

roadburner

It eventually goes out without confirmation on my car as well, but while it is up you cant access anything else.

Michaell

Autocross vs. HPDE - isn't autocross a low speed affair? I can see it chewing up tires and brakes.

HPDE is on a track, so all parts of the car are stressed.

High Plains Raceway, east of Denver, hosts a lot of events. I keep thinking I'd like to try it one day, but I worry about insurance and wear and tear on the Jetta.

http://highplainsraceway.com/

venture

roadburner said:

I have always despised the "Legal Disclaimer" that pops up on the main display every time you start a newer BMW. Worse, it requires you to "Confirm" by pushing the iDrive controller down. So, I did a little digging and found Bimmer-Tech.net- their solution to the problem; the company can send you a small coding file that is copied to a USB stick and downloaded to the car. End of the hated screen in my 2 Series. While I was at it I also had them send me coding to change the opening animation from "ConnectedDrive" to "M Sport" Mrs RB even thought it was cool:

I like being able to change the screen. Not exactly what you are talking about, but this is on my touch screen now:


Usually I use this one:


Sort of bad pictures, but you get the idea.

ab348

Yeah, that won't make you take your eyes off the road...

graphicguy

fordfool said:

@graphicguy Unfortunately, no...not the end...not by any stretch. Cadillac and the BBB
will drag this out as long as possible. BBB has had the case for well over a month.

Just wondering... what is the retail value of a 2016 Cadillac CTS vs. the auction value
of the same car with a lemon branded title. Seems to me that's the gamble that G.M.
is taking.

Not sure about auction value, but I looked up trade value on KBB a month or so....it was pegged at $28K. So, add in that it will have a "manufacturer buyback" title associated with it, figure it's worth around $20K. It had a $57K MSRP. So, if those numbers are correct, value has dropped +50% in one model year from MSRP as trade value.

GM taking a gamble? I was the one taking the gamble by letting them buy out the first one and putting another CTS in my driveway, that has been worse than the first one they bought back.

houdini1

jmonroe said:

I have a story that is just the opposite of what @abacomike encountered at the Walmart restroom. I told this story long ago on one of the Edmunds forums but since the subject has come up again, I'll do a little repeat. What was that? I think that noise we just heard was @driver100 slamming his laptop shut.

Anyway here goes:

When we lived in SC Mrs. j wanted to know where to find some nice accent stuff for the house we just built vs. the everyday stuff you see everywhere. Not expensive things, just a little different than the ordinary. A few of our neighbors told her to go to a standalone place in the back of the Augusta Mall complex. So we went and while there, I had to use the boys room. It was amazingly clean, actually immaculate, smell and all. Just like you have in your own home. I asked to speak to the manager and the woman asked if she could help but I told her I wanted to speak to the manager myself.

I told the manager I was not going to complain but rather compliment him on a very clean men's room. He was very surprised and thanked me. He went on to say that the thing that bothers him most when he is out is dirty restrooms. Therefore, he told all of his employees to come to him when they notice the restrooms were getting dirty because he wanted to hear it from them rather than from customers. He thanked me again and I went off to find Mrs. j. When I caught up with her she wanted to know what we were talking about, so I told her. Every time we went to this store, at least 4 other times after that first visit, when the manager saw us he would come over to say hello. It got to the point when Mrs. j saw him coming in our direction she would say, "here comes your buddy".

Fast forward (just for you @driver100 ) to about 2 months after our first visit. Mrs. j was out doing herself this time with "nice stuff". There was a little more than $350 of "nice stuff" in our cart. Excuse me, HER cart, there wasn't a damn thing in that cart for me. She even found a discounted 6 x 8 foot rug that would "fit perfectly" in the foyer.

Finally, she is done shopping and we go to the checkout line. When we got to the head of the line I saw the woman wave to the manager. When everything is rung up, all of a sudden the total changes to a lower price. When I ask what just happened she said, "you got a discount per the managers direction". I still didn't know what had happened and she said, "here he comes now. He'll explain it to you". He said, "as you know, I've seen you in here a few times since your first visit but you made relatively small purchase then so I waited for you to make a larger purchase so this 15% discount would be more valuable". I never had anything like that happen before or since.

Not often but sometimes when I open my mouth I say the right thing.

jmonroe

It all boils down to the person on site who is running the place, be it Walmart or Nordstrom's.

venture

ab348 said:

Yeah, that won't make you take your eyes off the road...

Why would it?

jmonroe

stickguy said:

my sonata does that when you turn it out. usual stuff about not using when driving, etc. and gives accept and reject buttons. If you hit accept, it goes away. But if you ignore it, after a few seconds, it goes away by itself. Basically by the time you are buckled in and ready to go, the screen has moved on. I don't even notice it at this point.

On my old '09 Genny the "Legal Disclaimer" came on and had to be acknowledged before it went off. Then all screens became available.

On Mrs. j's '12 Legacy Limited the Subaru logo appears for about 10 seconds then the "Legal Disclaimer" screen displays and if you do not acknowledge it within 3 1/2 minutes you get a pop up that asks you to select the "Language" that you want to use. Probably because if something other than English (here in the USA) was somehow selected unknowingly, you get a chance to select from several languages by hitting the back arrow to get to the original "Legal Disclaimer"screen that popped up. Once back to the original "Legal Disclaimer" screen you have to hit the "Agree" button on the touch screen, if you don't, the cycle repeats. If you don't acknowledge the second pop up screen it will be displayed forever. OK, maybe there is a time limit when you get to the normal screen but I have only left the second pop up screen displayed for and hour just to see what happens if you ignore the prompt.

On my '15 Genny the Genesis logo appears for about 15 seconds then the "Legal Disclaimer" screen displays for about 15 seconds after that the normal screen displays automatically.

jmonroe

jmonroe

Michaell said:

Autocross vs. HPDE - isn't autocross a low speed affair? I can see it chewing up tires and brakes.

HPDE is on a track, so all parts of the car are stressed.

High Plains Raceway, east of Denver, hosts a lot of events. I keep thinking I'd like to try it one day, but I worry about insurance and wear and tear on the Jetta.

http://highplainsraceway.com/

Look at this link for more autocross info https://www.scca.com/pages/what-is-autocross .

I don't know how well built your Jetta is but @roadburner said this in reply to my post about autocrossing; "Frankly, if a year of autocrossing killed your son's car it was a complete and total piece of garbage the day it rolled off the assembly line".

Are you willing to take the chance? I know I wouldn't and neither would my Son do it again. But if you want to test your skills and chances you can report the results here, anytime. Your insurance cost could be a problem. I'd worry more about warranty claims and explaining why you hit the "rev limiter" multiple times in short succession.

Again, your choice.

jmonroe

jmonroe

houdini1 said:

jmonroe said:

I have a story that is just the opposite of what @abacomike encountered at the Walmart restroom. I told this story long ago on one of the Edmunds forums but since the subject has come up again, I'll do a little repeat. What was that? I think that noise we just heard was @driver100 slamming his laptop shut.

Anyway here goes:

When we lived in SC Mrs. j wanted to know where to find some nice accent stuff for the house we just built vs. the everyday stuff you see everywhere. Not expensive things, just a little different than the ordinary. A few of our neighbors told her to go to a standalone place in the back of the Augusta Mall complex. So we went and while there, I had to use the boys room. It was amazingly clean, actually immaculate, smell and all. Just like you have in your own home. I asked to speak to the manager and the woman asked if she could help but I told her I wanted to speak to the manager myself.

I told the manager I was not going to complain but rather compliment him on a very clean men's room. He was very surprised and thanked me. He went on to say that the thing that bothers him most when he is out is dirty restrooms. Therefore, he told all of his employees to come to him when they notice the restrooms were getting dirty because he wanted to hear it from them rather than from customers. He thanked me again and I went off to find Mrs. j. When I caught up with her she wanted to know what we were talking about, so I told her. Every time we went to this store, at least 4 other times after that first visit, when the manager saw us he would come over to say hello. It got to the point when Mrs. j saw him coming in our direction she would say, "here comes your buddy".

Fast forward (just for you @driver100 ) to about 2 months after our first visit. Mrs. j was out doing herself this time with "nice stuff". There was a little more than $350 of "nice stuff" in our cart. Excuse me, HER cart, there wasn't a damn thing in that cart for me. She even found a discounted 6 x 8 foot rug that would "fit perfectly" in the foyer.

Finally, she is done shopping and we go to the checkout line. When we got to the head of the line I saw the woman wave to the manager. When everything is rung up, all of a sudden the total changes to a lower price. When I ask what just happened she said, "you got a discount per the managers direction". I still didn't know what had happened and she said, "here he comes now. He'll explain it to you". He said, "as you know, I've seen you in here a few times since your first visit but you made relatively small purchase then so I waited for you to make a larger purchase so this 15% discount would be more valuable". I never had anything like that happen before or since.

Not often but sometimes when I open my mouth I say the right thing.

jmonroe

It all boils down to the person on site who is running the place, be it Walmart or Nordstrom's.

I agree and the place I mentioned is proof of that. Not Walmart or Nordstrom's, just somewhere in between.

jmonroe

ab348

venture said:

ab348 said:

Yeah, that won't make you take your eyes off the road...

Why would it?

Lots of stuff crammed into that screen space. Just finding what you're looking for takes time I would think.

andres3

roadburner said:

jmonroe said:

I guess you can say that he learned too late but I knew all along that ain't good for a car.

jmonroe

It depends on the car. HPDE sessions are a LOT tougher on a car than a few autocross runs. The only excess wear I've seen on my cars (Mazda and BMW) has been to the brake pads and tires. I see lots of makes and models at track events and cars like Corvettes, Mustang GTs, and other performance cars survive quite well. Frankly, if a year of autocrossing killed your son's car it was a complete and total piece of garbage the day it rolled off the assembly line.

As I think I've said before, if hard acceleration is bad for a crappy car, then perhaps the engineers of said crappy car should put a rev limiter at 3,000 RPM.

Same here with my Audi's, brake pads and tires (wear parts) are the only things that should wear out from hard driving (and maybe rotors).

andres3

jmonroe said:

roadburner said:

jmonroe said:

I guess you can say that he learned too late but I knew all along that ain't good for a car.

jmonroe

It depends on the car. HPDE sessions are a LOT tougher on a car than a few autocross runs. The only excess wear I've seen on my cars (Mazda and BMW) has been to the brake pads and tires. I see lots of makes and models at track events and cars like Corvettes, Mustang GTs, and other performance cars survive quite well. Frankly, if a year of autocrossing killed your son's car it was a complete and total piece of garbage the day it rolled off the assembly line.

Funny how he never had a problem with it until he tortured it doing autocrossing.

When he bought a '95 Trans Am to go tracking he never had engine of tranny problems with that car. He did buy lots of brakes and tires, though.

Explain to me how all gas then all brake in rapid succession will not have a detrimental effect on an engine or tranny in a car that was not specifically built for doing that.

jmonroe

Quality engineering keeps full throttle and full braking from being detrimental to the engine and transmission. The rev limiters at the red-line keep both from exceeding their capabilities. Perhaps cars without dynamic handling should be red-lined at 2,500 RPM so you can baby them along the road without breakdowns for eternity.

Adequate inter-coolers and other cooling systems also help. Keyword is adequate design and engineering. I think I've seen V6 Camaros display on more than one occasion rather low tolerances to being driven hard.

I really don't see a lot of breakdowns to engines and transmissions at HPDE events outside of that. Modern cars also have a thing called "limp mode" which recent era cars go into when they've "had enough," saving them from detrimental effects. Basically, it limits the car to 10% throttle, low RPM's, and probably some other low thresholds.

andres3

Michaell said:

Autocross vs. HPDE - isn't autocross a low speed affair? I can see it chewing up tires and brakes.

HPDE is on a track, so all parts of the car are stressed.

High Plains Raceway, east of Denver, hosts a lot of events. I keep thinking I'd like to try it one day, but I worry about insurance and wear and tear on the Jetta.

http://highplainsraceway.com/

If it is your first HPDE event, I woudln't worry about much wear and tear outside of your brake pads and tires. You won't be breaking any speed or lap records your first outing as a rookie.

Audi club recommends you have fresh brake fluid (less than a year old). Other then that, you are good to go. Plus, isn't your Jetta leased?

Michaell

andres3 said:

Michaell said:

Autocross vs. HPDE - isn't autocross a low speed affair? I can see it chewing up tires and brakes.

HPDE is on a track, so all parts of the car are stressed.

High Plains Raceway, east of Denver, hosts a lot of events. I keep thinking I'd like to try it one day, but I worry about insurance and wear and tear on the Jetta.

http://highplainsraceway.com/

If it is your first HPDE event, I woudln't worry about much wear and tear outside of your brake pads and tires. You won't be breaking any speed or lap records your first outing as a rookie.

Audi club recommends you have fresh brake fluid (less than a year old). Other then that, you are good to go. Plus, isn't your Jetta leased?

@andres3 - thanks for the info. Yes, if I were to do it, it would be my first. (I've driven supercars at PPIR in the past, with an instructor next to me).

Was poking around the site and they offer 1/2 day instruction for something like $300-400. Open driving is $100-120 for a half day.

Yes, the Jetta is leased. Is that a problem?

andres3

graphicguy said:

fordfool said:

@graphicguy Unfortunately, no...not the end...not by any stretch. Cadillac and the BBB
will drag this out as long as possible. BBB has had the case for well over a month.

Just wondering... what is the retail value of a 2016 Cadillac CTS vs. the auction value
of the same car with a lemon branded title. Seems to me that's the gamble that G.M.
is taking.

Not sure about auction value, but I looked up trade value on KBB a month or so....it was pegged at $28K. So, add in that it will have a "manufacturer buyback" title associated with it, figure it's worth around $20K. It had a $57K MSRP. So, if those numbers are correct, value has dropped +50% in one model year from MSRP as trade value.

GM taking a gamble? I was the one taking the gamble by letting them buy out the first one and putting another CTS in my driveway, that has been worse than the first one they bought back.

50% depreciation for a perfectly fine (non-lemon titled) one-year old CTS tells me a lot about how the market perceives their reliability. I know inflated GM stickers, high rebates, and high discounts have a lot to do with it, but so does the market correction on a car's value, which I think is largely based on longevity and durability.

andres3

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

Michaell said:

Autocross vs. HPDE - isn't autocross a low speed affair? I can see it chewing up tires and brakes.

HPDE is on a track, so all parts of the car are stressed.

High Plains Raceway, east of Denver, hosts a lot of events. I keep thinking I'd like to try it one day, but I worry about insurance and wear and tear on the Jetta.

http://highplainsraceway.com/

If it is your first HPDE event, I woudln't worry about much wear and tear outside of your brake pads and tires. You won't be breaking any speed or lap records your first outing as a rookie.

Audi club recommends you have fresh brake fluid (less than a year old). Other then that, you are good to go. Plus, isn't your Jetta leased?

@andres3 - thanks for the info. Yes, if I were to do it, it would be my first. (I've driven supercars at PPIR in the past, with an instructor next to me).

Was poking around the site and they offer 1/2 day instruction for something like $300-400. Open driving is $100-120 for a half day.

Yes, the Jetta is leased. Is that a problem?

Not at all, it just means if you are worried the wear and tear might make the drive-train last 200,000 miles rather than 250,000 miles, you don't need to really worry about that as a leaser; unless of course you decide to keep it forever, but who are you kidding?

Michaell

andres3 said:

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

Michaell said:

Autocross vs. HPDE - isn't autocross a low speed affair? I can see it chewing up tires and brakes.

HPDE is on a track, so all parts of the car are stressed.

High Plains Raceway, east of Denver, hosts a lot of events. I keep thinking I'd like to try it one day, but I worry about insurance and wear and tear on the Jetta.

http://highplainsraceway.com/

If it is your first HPDE event, I woudln't worry about much wear and tear outside of your brake pads and tires. You won't be breaking any speed or lap records your first outing as a rookie.

Audi club recommends you have fresh brake fluid (less than a year old). Other then that, you are good to go. Plus, isn't your Jetta leased?

@andres3 - thanks for the info. Yes, if I were to do it, it would be my first. (I've driven supercars at PPIR in the past, with an instructor next to me).

Was poking around the site and they offer 1/2 day instruction for something like $300-400. Open driving is $100-120 for a half day.

Yes, the Jetta is leased. Is that a problem?

Not at all, it just means if you are worried the wear and tear might make the drive-train last 200,000 miles rather than 250,000 miles, you don't need to really worry about that as a leaser; unless of course you decide to keep it forever, but who are you kidding?

Given how few miles I put on the car with my regular driving, a couple of hours at slightly-higher-than-legal speeds shouldn't accelerate the wear and tear all that much. If anything, figure that every 1 mile of HPDE = 10 miles of regular driving? Or should I assume a larger ratio?

Paging @roadburner

andres3

jmonroe said:

Michaell said:

Autocross vs. HPDE - isn't autocross a low speed affair? I can see it chewing up tires and brakes.

HPDE is on a track, so all parts of the car are stressed.

High Plains Raceway, east of Denver, hosts a lot of events. I keep thinking I'd like to try it one day, but I worry about insurance and wear and tear on the Jetta.

http://highplainsraceway.com/

Look at this link for more autocross info https://www.scca.com/pages/what-is-autocross .

I don't know how well built your Jetta is but @roadburner said this in reply to my post about autocrossing; "Frankly, if a year of autocrossing killed your son's car it was a complete and total piece of garbage the day it rolled off the assembly line".

Are you willing to take the chance? I know I wouldn't and neither would my Son do it again. But if you want to test your skills and chances you can report the results here, anytime. Your insurance cost could be a problem. I'd worry more about warranty claims and explaining why you hit the "rev limiter" multiple times in short succession.

Again, your choice.

jmonroe

German Car = designed for Autobahn which means top speed limiter is fair game (usually 118, 128, or 155 depending on the vehicle).
US Car = designed to not go faster then National 55 MPH speed limit Okay, that was repealed in the 90's. 65 or 70 MPH nowadays.

I also wouldn't worry about insurance, as you are safer on the typical track than on an LA freeway where a segment of the population is texting while driving.

As far as warranty claims, if a service advisor asked me about hitting the rev limiter multiple times I'd tell them "because it let me."

Frankly, if a weekend HPDE triggers any malfunction (by some sort of dash check engine light for example), I'd be happy that the weakest link or part of the car was discovered under warranty so that it could be fixed.

roadburner

jmonroe said:

I don't get how that is any better than the "Legal Disclaimer" screen. You still have to get rid of that screen to get to the screens you want displayed. All of it is a waste of time.

After the first time the "Legal Disclaimer" screen pops up nobody reads it again anyhow.

However, I am surprised that BMW allows the "Legal Disclaimer" screen to be overridden.

jmonroe

The screen I changed was the start-up or "splash" screen. It comes up after the car has been turned for an extended period of time and goes off on it's own. After that comes the "Legal Disclaimer" which requires confirmation to turn it off. You get the disclaimer screen EVERY time the car is started- unless it's disabled.

roadburner

Participants at BMW HPDE events can buy collision insurance from Lockton Motorsports to cover damage due to an accident on-track. As far as warranties go, it depends on the manufacturer as well as the dealer; my Mazda and BMW dealers never gave me any trouble about my tracked cars. I understand Chevrolet is good as well, at least with respect to Camaros and Corvettes. Ford is iffy; when I was considering a Mustang GT and a Focus RS some Ford forum participants advised me not to let a Ford dealer even suspect you drove within 10 miles of an HPDE. I also heard some horror stories about Subaru, but IIRC a lot of those issues also involved modded cars.

My track car from 1996 to 2014 was my 318ti, which now has over 144k miles on it. The suspension has only required a couple of lower control arm bushings and the engine has only required a thermostat. It's on the second set of rotors, the third set of front pads, and the second set of rear pads. It still has the original clutch. The only powertrain modification I have made is a Turner/Conforti chip which added 12 bhp. I think I've gone through five sets of tires. I only retired it because it was much too slow for modern events; a 16.0s 1/4 mile and 130 mph top speed meant I got carpal tunnel syndrome from giving point-bys.

laurasdada

GG: So sorry about the continued CTS drama. My XF has had a couple of warranty issues lately, the last left me stranded. But, a call to Jag roadside, and car was (eventually!) towed to dealer. Each time there, I had a loaner, all work done/TSBs covered, car washed and off I went.

So, even though I've now had what I consider a catastrophic failure (luckily at work, 12 miles from dealer vs. in the middle of NH or Maine!), no out of pocket expenses, no push back from Jag or dealer and a couple of bags of chocolate chip cookies from the lounge area. I would definitely consider another Jag.

Is that so difficult, GM? Stand behind your product and customers? Or are you shooting for one and done customers...

driver100

Laurasdada, I have to the say i had a similar experience with the Audi, in that at least Audi talked to me and they did compromise a bit. The dealer discounted the parts 50% or $500 which brought a $2300 bill down to $1800 and Audi eventually kicked in $500 so I paid $1300 for a $2300 bill.

I try to look at the glass as half full and the Audi cost $11000 less than a comparable bmw 328, so I still feel we didn't do too badly. Then we got the MB GLK and that is the perfect car for my wife...she loves it so it all worked out in the end.

I posted the link to a Cadillac owner site yesterday, and though a vast majority of posters loved their Cadillacs, the ones who hated them all said the same, Cadillac ignored them and left them to fend for themselves. Maybe most car companies are the same, but, that would be the end for me.

Most problems have solutions, and in business the winners find solutions. I see no attempt to find a solution in this case..........wait and hope they make a part one day, then find a dealer willing to install it..

abacomike

laurasdada said:

GG: So sorry about the continued CTS drama. My XF has had a couple of warranty issues lately, the last left me stranded. But, a call to Jag roadside, and car was (eventually!) towed to dealer. Each time there, I had a loaner, all work done/TSBs covered, car washed and off I went.

So, even though I've now had what I consider a catastrophic failure (luckily at work, 12 miles from dealer vs. in the middle of NH or Maine!), no out of pocket expenses, no push back from Jag or dealer and a couple of bags of chocolate chip cookies from the lounge area. I would definitely consider another Jag.

Is that so difficult, GM? Stand behind your product and customers? Or are you shooting for one and done customers...

Back 13 years ago when I first took the job as sales manager at the Infiniti dealership, I made it very clear to each and every sales associate that every customer who buys a car from us or merely visits the showroom to window shop is a "future" customer/owner of an Infiniti. What I meant by that is simple - if a customer bought a car from us, he will buy another in a few years down the road which makes him/her a "future customer". The same is true for every human being who walks in the door - front or back (showroom or service/parts) - treat them well and they will be a customer for a new or used car in the future.

Infiniti corporate stressed this to all employees at dealerships to make sure they remember to treat each customer with dignity and respect every time they walk into the showroom or the service/parts department. Corporate backed that up by providing CSI (Customer Satisfaction Index) money to the dealership based upon consumer surveys of their treatment. I know this is how most dealerships operate and how most Automobile Manufacturers insist their customs be treated.

I just find it so very difficult to believe/understand how Cadillac/GM handles customers with product problems. It would seem, from some of the posts here, that Cadillac is/was well aware of the problem with some of the CTS's but chose not to "recall" the vehicles, but rather send out service bulletins to have dealership service departments handle these problematic vehicles on a piecemeal basis - in other words if a customer complains about his/her car catching fire or the harness/wiring melts or burn through, deal with it one at a time rather than recall all CTS's that may have this defect in engineering. That is most unfortunate - if it is true! I would think that if the Highway Transportation Administration gets wind of this, it could be a serious situation for Cadillac and GM. It's going to be interesting to see if this defect in engineering is picked up by the Federal Government. I hope they are being made aware of this by customers.

I would expect nothing less from BMW, Mercedes, Audi, or any other automobile manufacturer.

houdini1

andres3 said:

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

Michaell said:

Autocross vs. HPDE - isn't autocross a low speed affair? I can see it chewing up tires and brakes.

HPDE is on a track, so all parts of the car are stressed.

High Plains Raceway, east of Denver, hosts a lot of events. I keep thinking I'd like to try it one day, but I worry about insurance and wear and tear on the Jetta.

http://highplainsraceway.com/

If it is your first HPDE event, I woudln't worry about much wear and tear outside of your brake pads and tires. You won't be breaking any speed or lap records your first outing as a rookie.

Audi club recommends you have fresh brake fluid (less than a year old). Other then that, you are good to go. Plus, isn't your Jetta leased?

@andres3 - thanks for the info. Yes, if I were to do it, it would be my first. (I've driven supercars at PPIR in the past, with an instructor next to me).

Was poking around the site and they offer 1/2 day instruction for something like $300-400. Open driving is $100-120 for a half day.

Yes, the Jetta is leased. Is that a problem?

Not at all, it just means if you are worried the wear and tear might make the drive-train last 200,000 miles rather than 250,000 miles, you don't need to really worry about that as a leaser; unless of course you decide to keep it forever, but who are you kidding?

Naw, I wouldn't worry about driving a car hard, probably just a coincidence that so many of those well engineered, highly tuned, and finely balanced cars are not even able to go 24 hours at Le Mans. Probably the greatest reliability test there is. About 60 of the best cars in the world start the race, and they're lucky if half of them finish. Sometimes only 10 or so finish. Maybe 4 to 5 thousand miles covered. Might take 2 or 3 weeks but I believe I could finish the course in a Chrysler 200.

jmonroe

roadburner said:

jmonroe said:

I don't get how that is any better than the "Legal Disclaimer" screen. You still have to get rid of that screen to get to the screens you want displayed. All of it is a waste of time.

After the first time the "Legal Disclaimer" screen pops up nobody reads it again anyhow.

However, I am surprised that BMW allows the "Legal Disclaimer" screen to be overridden.

jmonroe

The screen I changed was the start-up or "splash" screen. It comes up after the car has been turned for an extended period of time and goes off on it's own. After that comes the "Legal Disclaimer" which requires confirmation to turn it off. You get the disclaimer screen EVERY time the car is started- unless it's disabled.

Thanks for the explanation.

jmonroe

laurasdada

I half joked about buying a Jag/British car and the ghost of Lucas. While hoping for perfection, I knew likely it would not be. The trick is how do you fix an issue, treat your (current and future, as Mike illustrated above) customer and stand behind your expensive product?

In my book, based on our small sample set here:

Jag 1
Audi .5
Caddy -1376

Perhaps some companies know they're "too big to fail."

jmonroe

andres3 said:

jmonroe said:

roadburner said:

jmonroe said:

I guess you can say that he learned too late but I knew all along that ain't good for a car.

jmonroe

It depends on the car. HPDE sessions are a LOT tougher on a car than a few autocross runs. The only excess wear I've seen on my cars (Mazda and BMW) has been to the brake pads and tires. I see lots of makes and models at track events and cars like Corvettes, Mustang GTs, and other performance cars survive quite well. Frankly, if a year of autocrossing killed your son's car it was a complete and total piece of garbage the day it rolled off the assembly line.

Funny how he never had a problem with it until he tortured it doing autocrossing.

When he bought a '95 Trans Am to go tracking he never had engine of tranny problems with that car. He did buy lots of brakes and tires, though.

Explain to me how all gas then all brake in rapid succession will not have a detrimental effect on an engine or tranny in a car that was not specifically built for doing that.

jmonroe

Quality engineering keeps full throttle and full braking from being detrimental to the engine and transmission. The rev limiters at the red-line keep both from exceeding their capabilities. Perhaps cars without dynamic handling should be red-lined at 2,500 RPM so you can baby them along the road without breakdowns for eternity.

Adequate inter-coolers and other cooling systems also help. Keyword is adequate design and engineering. I think I've seen V6 Camaros display on more than one occasion rather low tolerances to being driven hard.

I really don't see a lot of breakdowns to engines and transmissions at HPDE events outside of that. Modern cars also have a thing called "limp mode" which recent era cars go into when they've "had enough," saving them from detrimental effects. Basically, it limits the car to 10% throttle, low RPM's, and probably some other low thresholds.

OK, you convinced me...I'm not going to do it.

Too many restrictions. If I can't get the car to go fast because of all the nannies, why would I want to waste my time and money. Plus, on top of all that, I'm not thrilled by speed but I know that a LOT of people are. Some are even in here.

jmonroe