Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

andres3

houdini1 said:

andres3 said:

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

Michaell said:

Autocross vs. HPDE - isn't autocross a low speed affair? I can see it chewing up tires and brakes.

HPDE is on a track, so all parts of the car are stressed.

High Plains Raceway, east of Denver, hosts a lot of events. I keep thinking I'd like to try it one day, but I worry about insurance and wear and tear on the Jetta.

http://highplainsraceway.com/

If it is your first HPDE event, I woudln't worry about much wear and tear outside of your brake pads and tires. You won't be breaking any speed or lap records your first outing as a rookie.

Audi club recommends you have fresh brake fluid (less than a year old). Other then that, you are good to go. Plus, isn't your Jetta leased?

@andres3 - thanks for the info. Yes, if I were to do it, it would be my first. (I've driven supercars at PPIR in the past, with an instructor next to me).

Was poking around the site and they offer 1/2 day instruction for something like $300-400. Open driving is $100-120 for a half day.

Yes, the Jetta is leased. Is that a problem?

Not at all, it just means if you are worried the wear and tear might make the drive-train last 200,000 miles rather than 250,000 miles, you don't need to really worry about that as a leaser; unless of course you decide to keep it forever, but who are you kidding?

Naw, I wouldn't worry about driving a car hard, probably just a coincidence that so many of those well engineered, highly tuned, and finely balanced cars are not even able to go 24 hours at Le Mans. Probably the greatest reliability test there is. About 60 of the best cars in the world start the race, and they're lucky if half of them finish. Sometimes only 10 or so finish. Maybe 4 to 5 thousand miles covered. Might take 2 or 3 weeks but I believe I could finish the course in a Chrysler 200.

The 24 Hour of Le Mans is like the Superbowl of auto races. The very best of the best drivers drive these highly specialized cars past their limits (not up to their limits). For instance, a lot of the nannies on your everyday Audi are probably not installed on the R18 race car. These race cars are designed to last 24 hours (if well designed), not 200,000 miles.

Also, a lot of the cars that don't finish are due to crashes and collisions, not mechanical failure, but again, they are driving at and above the limit, your average HPDE hobbiest is peewee league compared to that; even the instructors. Also, a typical HPDE weekend 2-days at a track event is eight 25 minute sessions at most, separated by rest and lengthy cool-down periods for your vehicles and driver. No driving full blast hours on end with what were talking here. Within those 25 minutes sessions you usually have a warm up and cool down lap as well, and you aren't racing, but simply learning how to drive at a high performance level and exploring your car's limits in a safe environment.

graphicguy

abacomike said:

laurasdada said:

GG: So sorry about the continued CTS drama. My XF has had a couple of warranty issues lately, the last left me stranded. But, a call to Jag roadside, and car was (eventually!) towed to dealer. Each time there, I had a loaner, all work done/TSBs covered, car washed and off I went.

So, even though I've now had what I consider a catastrophic failure (luckily at work, 12 miles from dealer vs. in the middle of NH or Maine!), no out of pocket expenses, no push back from Jag or dealer and a couple of bags of chocolate chip cookies from the lounge area. I would definitely consider another Jag.

Is that so difficult, GM? Stand behind your product and customers? Or are you shooting for one and done customers...

Back 13 years ago when I first took the job as sales manager at the Infiniti dealership, I made it very clear to each and every sales associate that every customer who buys a car from us or merely visits the showroom to window shop is a "future" customer/owner of an Infiniti. What I meant by that is simple - if a customer bought a car from us, he will buy another in a few years down the road which makes him/her a "future customer". The same is true for every human being who walks in the door - front or back (showroom or service/parts) - treat them well and they will be a customer for a new or used car in the future.

Infiniti corporate stressed this to all employees at dealerships to make sure they remember to treat each customer with dignity and respect every time they walk into the showroom or the service/parts department. Corporate backed that up by providing CSI (Customer Satisfaction Index) money to the dealership based upon consumer surveys of their treatment. I know this is how most dealerships operate and how most Automobile Manufacturers insist their customs be treated.

I just find it so very difficult to believe/understand how Cadillac/GM handles customers with product problems. It would seem, from some of the posts here, that Cadillac is/was well aware of the problem with some of the CTS's but chose not to "recall" the vehicles, but rather send out service bulletins to have dealership service departments handle these problematic vehicles on a piecemeal basis - in other words if a customer complains about his/her car catching fire or the harness/wiring melts or burn through, deal with it one at a time rather than recall all CTS's that may have this defect in engineering. That is most unfortunate - if it is true! I would think that if the Highway Transportation Administration gets wind of this, it could be a serious situation for Cadillac and GM. It's going to be interesting to see if this defect in engineering is picked up by the Federal Government. I hope they are being made aware of this by customers.

I would expect nothing less from BMW, Mercedes, Audi, or any other automobile manufacturer.

Laurasdada.....you hit the nail on the head. No car is perfect. It's how the manufacturer handles those issues that seperates the good from the bad. Jag took care of you.

Mike....well said. Funny thing, @kyfdx mentioned I never could deal with the lone Infiniti dealer in my 'burg in previous attempts to do business with them. It was a combination of "buy or not, we don't care" and "if you don't see what you want on our lot, you can't buy it". I always went in with my "one time offer" negotiations, which they didn't like much either....to the point where they acted insulted I would offer what I would pay, rather than accept what they wanted me to pay. I always felt undervalued as a customer with that dealership.

I always liked Infinitis.....just couldn't get together on a deal. Truth told, I was going to take President's Day and drive down to visit @roadburner at his BMW dealership, and while down there, visit the Infiniti store that is also owned by the same group.

Fast forward to the Cincinnati Auto Show a few weeks ago, and I saw the Q50, again....refreshed motor and tech from the last Q50 I had driven (a '15). I thought..."well, I'm testing everything else. May as give another look to the Q50 with the new twin turbo motor". Went to the Cincinnati dealership, and the entire staff was different from the ones I was used to dealing with....from the GM on down. Drove two...one with the dreaded direct adaptive steering....a Q50s...and one with the hydraulic steering (from the previous G37). Was hoping for a white over black. But, the Q50 with the red over tan was in the showroom, and it had everything I wanted. They had a price on a sheet of paper in the windshield that was $7K under MSRP. A quick "lookup" of the different pricing WEB sites showed that the price was in the ballpark....maybe a little lower than the "great price" TrueCar advertises.

Throwing my "one price" out there, $10K under MSRP, they had to get the deal approved by the GM, who was taking the day off (this was on a Thursday, before President's Day). It was contingent on me test driving the car in the showroom and liking it. On Sunday, sales person calls and says they pulled the showroom Q50 out for me to test drive if I wanted to try it out. I did. Liked it.....a lot. On Monday, GM calls and says they accepted my offer because he was "highly motivated" to clear out the '16s. They detailed it and said they'd have it ready any time I wanted to drop by, which I did later in the afternoon, to do the paperwork (which was already pre-printed, and ready to go) and get the "this is how everything works" speach.

Old management didn't seem to care. As a result, never bought anything from them, even though I liked their cars. New management was very accomodating....boom.....deal done.

Tale of two experiences, same dealership! The one you were the sales manager of Mike, would be one I'd love to do business with.

andres3

jmonroe said:

andres3 said:

jmonroe said:

roadburner said:

jmonroe said:

I guess you can say that he learned too late but I knew all along that ain't good for a car.

jmonroe

It depends on the car. HPDE sessions are a LOT tougher on a car than a few autocross runs. The only excess wear I've seen on my cars (Mazda and BMW) has been to the brake pads and tires. I see lots of makes and models at track events and cars like Corvettes, Mustang GTs, and other performance cars survive quite well. Frankly, if a year of autocrossing killed your son's car it was a complete and total piece of garbage the day it rolled off the assembly line.

Funny how he never had a problem with it until he tortured it doing autocrossing.

When he bought a '95 Trans Am to go tracking he never had engine of tranny problems with that car. He did buy lots of brakes and tires, though.

Explain to me how all gas then all brake in rapid succession will not have a detrimental effect on an engine or tranny in a car that was not specifically built for doing that.

jmonroe

Quality engineering keeps full throttle and full braking from being detrimental to the engine and transmission. The rev limiters at the red-line keep both from exceeding their capabilities. Perhaps cars without dynamic handling should be red-lined at 2,500 RPM so you can baby them along the road without breakdowns for eternity.

Adequate inter-coolers and other cooling systems also help. Keyword is adequate design and engineering. I think I've seen V6 Camaros display on more than one occasion rather low tolerances to being driven hard.

I really don't see a lot of breakdowns to engines and transmissions at HPDE events outside of that. Modern cars also have a thing called "limp mode" which recent era cars go into when they've "had enough," saving them from detrimental effects. Basically, it limits the car to 10% throttle, low RPM's, and probably some other low thresholds.

OK, you convinced me...I'm not going to do it.

Too many restrictions. If I can't get the car to go fast because of all the nannies, why would I want to waste my time and money. Plus, on top of all that, I'm not thrilled by speed but I know that a LOT of people are. Some are even in here.

jmonroe

I would think most modern sporty cars could handle being driven hard for at least 15-20 minutes before sputtering into "limp mode." Even in 100 degree hot weather, I would think that would be the case, so you wouldn't be wasting most of your time if you buy one with lower thresholds.

stickguy

I suspect my nerve would give out before I hit the nanny limits on something like a Porsche or S4.

venture

ab348 said:

venture said:

ab348 said:

Yeah, that won't make you take your eyes off the road...

Why would it?

Lots of stuff crammed into that screen space. Just finding what you're looking for takes time I would think.

Nah. It's like most stuff in a car regardless of the features. Once you set it you don't need it any more. The only thing on that screen that gets used is the heated seats when it's cold.

andres3

roadburner said:

jmonroe said:

I don't get how that is any better than the "Legal Disclaimer" screen. You still have to get rid of that screen to get to the screens you want displayed. All of it is a waste of time.

After the first time the "Legal Disclaimer" screen pops up nobody reads it again anyhow.

However, I am surprised that BMW allows the "Legal Disclaimer" screen to be overridden.

jmonroe

The screen I changed was the start-up or "splash" screen. It comes up after the car has been turned for an extended period of time and goes off on it's own. After that comes the "Legal Disclaimer" which requires confirmation to turn it off. You get the disclaimer screen EVERY time the car is started- unless it's disabled.

What is this "Legal Disclaimer?"

Sounds terribly annoying to me. What does it say? I find the ugly air bag warning caution notices and un-removable stickers on the sun visors annoying as well.

andres3

stickguy said:

I suspect my nerve would give out before I hit the nanny limits on something like a Porsche or S4.

Yes, never got the nannies activated on the S4.

The S4 was heavy though, and ate through the OEM brake pads like they were made out of rice krispies. But the DSG or motor oil never got too hot.

oldfarmer50

P

jmonroe said:

I have a story that is just the opposite of what @abacomike encountered at the Walmart restroom. I told this story long ago on one of the Edmunds forums but since the subject has come up again, I'll do a little repeat. What was that? I think that noise we just heard was @driver100 slamming his laptop shut.

Anyway here goes:

When we lived in SC Mrs. j wanted to know where to find some nice accent stuff for the house we just built vs. the everyday stuff you see everywhere. Not expensive things, just a little different than the ordinary. A few of our neighbors told her to go to a standalone place in the back of the Augusta Mall complex. So we went and while there, I had to use the boys room. It was amazingly clean, actually immaculate, smell and all. Just like you have in your own home. I asked to speak to the manager and the woman asked if she could help but I told her I wanted to speak to the manager myself.

I told the manager I was not going to complain but rather compliment him on a very clean men's room. He was very surprised and thanked me. He went on to say that the thing that bothers him most when he is out is dirty restrooms. Therefore, he told all of his employees to come to him when they notice the restrooms were getting dirty because he wanted to hear it from them rather than from customers. He thanked me again and I went off to find Mrs. j. When I caught up with her she wanted to know what we were talking about, so I told her. Every time we went to this store, at least 4 other times after that first visit, when the manager saw us he would come over to say hello. It got to the point when Mrs. j saw him coming in our direction she would say, "here comes your buddy".

Fast forward (just for you @driver100 ) to about 2 months after our first visit. Mrs. j was out doing herself this time with "nice stuff". There was a little more than $350 of "nice stuff" in our cart. Excuse me, HER cart, there wasn't a damn thing in that cart for me. She even found a discounted 6 x 8 foot rug that would "fit perfectly" in the foyer.

Finally, she is done shopping and we go to the checkout line. When we got to the head of the line I saw the woman wave to the manager. When everything is rung up, all of a sudden the total changes to a lower price. When I ask what just happened she said, "you got a discount per the managers direction". I still didn't know what had happened and she said, "here he comes now. He'll explain it to you". He said, "as you know, I've seen you in here a few times since your first visit but you made relatively small purchase then so I waited for you to make a larger purchase so this 15% discount would be more valuable". I never had anything like that happen before or since.

Not often but sometimes when I open my mouth I say the right thing.

jmonroe

It's funny that you didn't realize that he was just hitting on your wife.

The husband is always the last to know.

abacomike

@graphicguy

To be honest with you GG, I used to hate dealing with customers who came into the showroom and gave me "their" price for the car, out-the-door, that they just drove.  95% of the time that OTD price he was willing to pay was well under my net cost for the car.  I never could understand how they came up with a price that, if accepted, would lose money for the dealership.

In 5% of the cases, I immediately accepted their offer because I either broke even or we would make a few hundred bucks on the deal.  It made no sense to waste time with a customer who offered an acceptable price for a car.  I believe it makes better sense to deliver the car, make a happy customer, and move on to the next deal.

In some rare cases, the car the offer was made on was a one of a kind car or a car just introduced.  In those instances, I would stand firm on a $1000 below sticker price.  The dealership is in business to make money - not just give away cars as Christmas gifts.  Funny, around Christmas and New Years, I would often take a loser deal (if approved by the owner) to meet year end goals.

Yes, GG, customer satisfaction is the most important goal in a new car dealership - it means great surveys and great CSI incentives from the manufacturer.

oldfarmer50

jmonroe said:

stickguy said:

my sonata does that when you turn it out. usual stuff about not using when driving, etc. and gives accept and reject buttons. If you hit accept, it goes away. But if you ignore it, after a few seconds, it goes away by itself. Basically by the time you are buckled in and ready to go, the screen has moved on. I don't even notice it at this point.

On my old '09 Genny the "Legal Disclaimer" came on and had to be acknowledged before it went off. Then all screens became available.

On Mrs. j's '12 Legacy Limited the Subaru logo appears for about 10 seconds then the "Legal Disclaimer" screen displays and if you do not acknowledge it within 3 1/2 minutes you get a pop up that asks you to select the "Language" that you want to use. Probably because if something other than English (here in the USA) was somehow selected unknowingly, you get a chance to select from several languages by hitting the back arrow to get to the original "Legal Disclaimer"screen that popped up. Once back to the original "Legal Disclaimer" screen you have to hit the "Agree" button on the touch screen, if you don't, the cycle repeats. If you don't acknowledge the second pop up screen it will be displayed forever. OK, maybe there is a time limit when you get to the normal screen but I have only left the second pop up screen displayed for and hour just to see what happens if you ignore the prompt.

On my '15 Genny the Genesis logo appears for about 15 seconds then the "Legal Disclaimer" screen displays for about 15 seconds after that the normal screen displays automatically.

jmonroe

Sorry but any car that makes you sign off on "legal disclaimers" before you drive is not for me. :@

andres3

abacomike said:

@graphicguy

To be honest with you GG, I used to hate dealing with customers who came into the showroom and gave me "their" price for the car, out-the-door, that they just drove.  95% of the time that OTD price he was willing to pay was well under my net cost for the car.  I never could understand how they came up with a price that, if accepted, would lose money for the dealership.

In 5% of the cases, I immediately accepted their offer because I either broke even or we would make a few hundred bucks on the deal.  It made no sense to waste time with a customer who offered an acceptable price for a car.  I believe it makes better sense to deliver the car, make a happy customer, and move on to the next deal.

In some rare cases, the car the offer was made on was a one of a kind car or a car just introduced.  In those instances, I would stand firm on a $1000 below sticker price.  The dealership is in business to make money - not just give away cars as Christmas gifts.  Funny, around Christmas and New Years, I would often take a loser deal (if approved by the owner) to meet year end goals.

Yes, GG, customer satisfaction is the most important goal in a new car dealership - it means great surveys and great CSI incentives from the manufacturer.

You may lose money on a "loser" deal, but won't you lose even more money if it takes you 90 more days to make $200 more on that same car?

oldfarmer50

andres3 said:

jmonroe said:

roadburner said:

jmonroe said:

I guess you can say that he learned too late but I knew all along that ain't good for a car.

jmonroe

It depends on the car. HPDE sessions are a LOT tougher on a car than a few autocross runs. The only excess wear I've seen on my cars (Mazda and BMW) has been to the brake pads and tires. I see lots of makes and models at track events and cars like Corvettes, Mustang GTs, and other performance cars survive quite well. Frankly, if a year of autocrossing killed your son's car it was a complete and total piece of garbage the day it rolled off the assembly line.

Funny how he never had a problem with it until he tortured it doing autocrossing.

When he bought a '95 Trans Am to go tracking he never had engine of tranny problems with that car. He did buy lots of brakes and tires, though.

Explain to me how all gas then all brake in rapid succession will not have a detrimental effect on an engine or tranny in a car that was not specifically built for doing that.

jmonroe

Quality engineering keeps full throttle and full braking from being detrimental to the engine and transmission. The rev limiters at the red-line keep both from exceeding their capabilities. Perhaps cars without dynamic handling should be red-lined at 2,500 RPM so you can baby them along the road without breakdowns for eternity.

Adequate inter-coolers and other cooling systems also help. Keyword is adequate design and engineering. I think I've seen V6 Camaros display on more than one occasion rather low tolerances to being driven hard.

I really don't see a lot of breakdowns to engines and transmissions at HPDE events outside of that. Modern cars also have a thing called "limp mode" which recent era cars go into when they've "had enough," saving them from detrimental effects. Basically, it limits the car to 10% throttle, low RPM's, and probably some other low thresholds.

I know that performance oriented cars have larger oil sumps to prevent loss of pressure in hard cornering. I bet most regular cars lack that feature which could lead to oil starvation and consequent I'll effects. I doubt engineers design the typical family SUV for constant hard driving.

Maybe they should but how much more would you be willing to pay?

oldfarmer50

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

Michaell said:

Autocross vs. HPDE - isn't autocross a low speed affair? I can see it chewing up tires and brakes.

HPDE is on a track, so all parts of the car are stressed.

High Plains Raceway, east of Denver, hosts a lot of events. I keep thinking I'd like to try it one day, but I worry about insurance and wear and tear on the Jetta.

http://highplainsraceway.com/

If it is your first HPDE event, I woudln't worry about much wear and tear outside of your brake pads and tires. You won't be breaking any speed or lap records your first outing as a rookie.

Audi club recommends you have fresh brake fluid (less than a year old). Other then that, you are good to go. Plus, isn't your Jetta leased?

@andres3 - thanks for the info. Yes, if I were to do it, it would be my first. (I've driven supercars at PPIR in the past, with an instructor next to me).

Was poking around the site and they offer 1/2 day instruction for something like $300-400. Open driving is $100-120 for a half day.

Yes, the Jetta is leased. Is that a problem?

Only for the guy who buys it after you return it.

abacomike

andres3 said:

@graphicguy

To be honest with you GG, I used to hate dealing with customers who came into the showroom and gave me "their" price for the car, out-the-door, that they just drove.  95% of the time that OTD price he was willing to pay was well under my net cost for the car.  I never could understand how they came up with a price that, if accepted, would lose money for the dealership.

In 5% of the cases, I immediately accepted their offer because I either broke even or we would make a few hundred bucks on the deal.  It made no sense to waste time with a customer who offered an acceptable price for a car.  I believe it makes better sense to deliver the car, make a happy customer, and move on to the next deal.

In some rare cases, the car the offer was made on was a one of a kind car or a car just introduced.  In those instances, I would stand firm on a $1000 below sticker price.  The dealership is in business to make money - not just give away cars as Christmas gifts.  Funny, around Christmas and New Years, I would often take a loser deal (if approved by the owner) to meet year end goals.

Yes, GG, customer satisfaction is the most important goal in a new car dealership - it means great surveys and great CSI incentives from the manufacturer.

You may lose money on a "loser" deal, but won't you lose even more money if it takes you 90 more days to make $200 more on that same car?

We sold too many cars each month to worry about that.  At the time I worked for Infiniti, that dealership was the highest volume dealer in the US.  Not any longer, from what I have been told.

When we were very busy selling lots of cars, we took many lean and some loser deals.  When we were slow - usually in the summer, we sold fewer cars but made higher profits due to end of year manufacturer to dealer incentives.

oldfarmer50

abacomike said:

andres3 said:

abacomike said:

@graphicguy

To be honest with you GG, I used to hate dealing with customers who came into the showroom and gave me "their" price for the car, out-the-door, that they just drove.  95% of the time that OTD price he was willing to pay was well under my net cost for the car.  I never could understand how they came up with a price that, if accepted, would lose money for the dealership.

In 5% of the cases, I immediately accepted their offer because I either broke even or we would make a few hundred bucks on the deal.  It made no sense to waste time with a customer who offered an acceptable price for a car.  I believe it makes better sense to deliver the car, make a happy customer, and move on to the next deal.

In some rare cases, the car the offer was made on was a one of a kind car or a car just introduced.  In those instances, I would stand firm on a $1000 below sticker price.  The dealership is in business to make money - not just give away cars as Christmas gifts.  Funny, around Christmas and New Years, I would often take a loser deal (if approved by the owner) to meet year end goals.

Yes, GG, customer satisfaction is the most important goal in a new car dealership - it means great surveys and great CSI incentives from the manufacturer.

You may lose money on a "loser" deal, but won't you lose even more money if it takes you 90 more days to make $200 more on that same car?

We sold too many cars each month to worry about that.  At the time I worked for Infiniti, that dealership was the highest volume dealer in the US.  Not any longer, from what I have been told.

When we were very busy selling lots of cars, we took many lean and some loser deals.  When we were slow - usually in the summer, we sold fewer cars but made higher profits due to end of year manufacturer to dealer incentives.

I always thought that there was some hidden trunk money on my Ford when I bought it in July. How much do manufacturers typically put on a car by then?

There use to be an incentive section here on Edmunds but I'll be danged if I can find it now.

abacomike

@oldfarmer50

I really can't be specific because it varied by model.  As for Ford, I have no idea.  Typically, we had $300-$500 per car, sometimes more depending on the time of year.

driver100

Mike, some companies care about the future and want to build sales. They go out of their way to keep customers, because it is easier to sell cars to a satisfied customer than it is to try and find a new customer.

Some companies just care about quarterly sales. The execs want to keep their jobs for another quarter so they can get another fat pay check. They don't care about long term, they don't see that retaining a customer is a good long term policy.

Like I say, Audi has lost the sales of 3 potential cars so far from me alone, not counting possible future business....because of the way we were treated. It is their business decision, Our Mercedes dealer so far has been very cooperative and friendly...but, I know that can change so for now I give them the benefit of the doubt, and would always go to them first if I like the product the most.

andres3

oldfarmer50 said:

andres3 said:

jmonroe said:

roadburner said:

jmonroe said:

I guess you can say that he learned too late but I knew all along that ain't good for a car.

jmonroe

It depends on the car. HPDE sessions are a LOT tougher on a car than a few autocross runs. The only excess wear I've seen on my cars (Mazda and BMW) has been to the brake pads and tires. I see lots of makes and models at track events and cars like Corvettes, Mustang GTs, and other performance cars survive quite well. Frankly, if a year of autocrossing killed your son's car it was a complete and total piece of garbage the day it rolled off the assembly line.

Funny how he never had a problem with it until he tortured it doing autocrossing.

When he bought a '95 Trans Am to go tracking he never had engine of tranny problems with that car. He did buy lots of brakes and tires, though.

Explain to me how all gas then all brake in rapid succession will not have a detrimental effect on an engine or tranny in a car that was not specifically built for doing that.

jmonroe

Quality engineering keeps full throttle and full braking from being detrimental to the engine and transmission. The rev limiters at the red-line keep both from exceeding their capabilities. Perhaps cars without dynamic handling should be red-lined at 2,500 RPM so you can baby them along the road without breakdowns for eternity.

Adequate inter-coolers and other cooling systems also help. Keyword is adequate design and engineering. I think I've seen V6 Camaros display on more than one occasion rather low tolerances to being driven hard.

I really don't see a lot of breakdowns to engines and transmissions at HPDE events outside of that. Modern cars also have a thing called "limp mode" which recent era cars go into when they've "had enough," saving them from detrimental effects. Basically, it limits the car to 10% throttle, low RPM's, and probably some other low thresholds.

I know that performance oriented cars have larger oil sumps to prevent loss of pressure in hard cornering. I bet most regular cars lack that feature which could lead to oil starvation and consequent I'll effects. I doubt engineers design the typical family SUV for constant hard driving.

Maybe they should but how much more would you be willing to pay?

Yes, agreed, but the typical family SUV can't pull much G-force in a turn anyway, so it's all in the design parameters.

andres3

driver100 said:

Mike, some companies care about the future and want to build sales. They go out of their way to keep customers, because it is easier to sell cars to a satisfied customer than it is to try and find a new customer.

Some companies just care about quarterly sales. The execs want to keep their jobs for another quarter so they can get another fat pay check. They don't care about long term, they don't see that retaining a customer is a good long term policy.

Like I say, Audi has lost the sales of 3 potential cars so far from me alone, not counting possible future business....because of the way we were treated. It is their business decision, Our Mercedes dealer so far has been very cooperative and friendly...but, I know that can change so for now I give them the benefit of the doubt, and would always go to them first if I like the product the most.

So are you saying you really love the Audi's and your just "settling" for Mercedes? I am kidding , but you do imply if Audi had ponied up a 100% for the problem you had you'd have bought 3 or 4 Audi's by now.

Based on everything you've ever written in here, I think Mercedes would have still won your business regardless of what Audi did, at least 3 of those 4 times.

In my case, if Chrysler had sold vehicles as reliable as Honda over the past 25 years, I think I might have dabbled in something they made; maybe a CPO Viper. OF course, if they were reliable, their used models wouldn't be so cheap.

Mr_Shiftright

oldfarmer50 said:

abacomike said:

andres3 said:

abacomike said:

@graphicguy

To be honest with you GG, I used to hate dealing with customers who came into the showroom and gave me "their" price for the car, out-the-door, that they just drove.  95% of the time that OTD price he was willing to pay was well under my net cost for the car.  I never could understand how they came up with a price that, if accepted, would lose money for the dealership.

In 5% of the cases, I immediately accepted their offer because I either broke even or we would make a few hundred bucks on the deal.  It made no sense to waste time with a customer who offered an acceptable price for a car.  I believe it makes better sense to deliver the car, make a happy customer, and move on to the next deal.

In some rare cases, the car the offer was made on was a one of a kind car or a car just introduced.  In those instances, I would stand firm on a $1000 below sticker price.  The dealership is in business to make money - not just give away cars as Christmas gifts.  Funny, around Christmas and New Years, I would often take a loser deal (if approved by the owner) to meet year end goals.

Yes, GG, customer satisfaction is the most important goal in a new car dealership - it means great surveys and great CSI incentives from the manufacturer.

You may lose money on a "loser" deal, but won't you lose even more money if it takes you 90 more days to make $200 more on that same car?

We sold too many cars each month to worry about that.  At the time I worked for Infiniti, that dealership was the highest volume dealer in the US.  Not any longer, from what I have been told.

When we were very busy selling lots of cars, we took many lean and some loser deals.  When we were slow - usually in the summer, we sold fewer cars but made higher profits due to end of year manufacturer to dealer incentives.

I always thought that there was some hidden trunk money on my Ford when I bought it in July. How much do manufacturers typically put on a car by then?

There use to be an incentive section here on Edmunds but I'll be danged if I can find it now.


Here you go:

https://www.edmunds.com/car-incentives/

driver100

andres3 said:

driver100 said:

Mike, some companies care about the future and want to build sales. They go out of their way to keep customers, because it is easier to sell cars to a satisfied customer than it is to try and find a new customer.

Some companies just care about quarterly sales. The execs want to keep their jobs for another quarter so they can get another fat pay check. They don't care about long term, they don't see that retaining a customer is a good long term policy.

Like I say, Audi has lost the sales of 3 potential cars so far from me alone, not counting possible future business....because of the way we were treated. It is their business decision, Our Mercedes dealer so far has been very cooperative and friendly...but, I know that can change so for now I give them the benefit of the doubt, and would always go to them first if I like the product the most.

So are you saying you really love the Audi's and your just "settling" for Mercedes? I am kidding , but you do imply if Audi had ponied up a 100% for the problem you had you'd have bought 3 or 4 Audi's by now.

Based on everything you've ever written in here, I think Mercedes would have still won your business regardless of what Audi did, at least 3 of those 4 times.

In my case, if Chrysler had sold vehicles as reliable as Honda over the past 25 years, I think I might have dabbled in something they made; maybe a CPO Viper. OF course, if they were reliable, their used models wouldn't be so cheap.

If we hadn't had the problem with the A4 my wife would still have that car....she loved it.

I was so impressed with it, I was pretty sure I would buy an A6. I tried it and it didn't do much for me. The MB E400 was perfect, we knew it was perfect as soon as we sat in it.

If things were a little different, and Audi paid for the clutch, my wife would still be driving an A4, If I had liked the A6 when I tested it, I would have bought the A6, and then assuming we survived the big rear end accident I would have replaced the A6 with another A6, and I think in another year or two my wife would have bought another A4 if she liked it at all. Audi had an advantage over the competition if they paid up, and if the cars appealed to us...at least they had the potential, to sell a minimum of 3 more cars to us.

But yeh, I have no idea why someone would choose an A6 over an E400. The interior choices were drab, the exterior colors are drab, the outward vision is limited, and the instruments weren't that nice.....driving was good, but not as nice handling as the E400. But, the reviews usually have Audi as the leader in that segment.

The A4 was much more exciting to drive than the barge like A6, but, doesn't feel as strong, sturdy and quiet as a C Class....and that is just one persons opinion.

abacomike

@driver100

You called the Audi A6 a "barge".  Perhaps compared to a C Class Mercedes, but certainly not a new Mercedes E400 or a new BMW 540i.  I've driven the A6 and found it to be a bit tight on the inside compared to the 540i or the E400, but certainly not a barge.

I know your opinion of the Manufacturer Audi, but their products are considered well built automobiles.  I am still skiddish of Audi due to past negative experiences, as are you, however if you are looking to identify a barge in their lineup, pick the A8L - now that's a barge - but so is the 740Li and the S550.

Just my opinion, driver. 

fintail

I think the Audi might seem cramped due to the low roofline. The E is taller and more formal. I had a rental A8 in Germany - very nice car, but it also seemed like a super sized A6 to me. A barge. The S600 Maybach is a baroque steamship

abacomike

fintail said:

I think the Audi might seem cramped due to the low roofline. The E is taller and more formal. I had a rental A8 in Germany - very nice car, but it also seemed like a super sized A6 to me. A barge. The S600 Maybach is a baroque steamship

I call my 740Li a "yacht" because pulling into or out of a parking spot is like maneuvering a big boat.  Same for making tight turns.  It takes a lot of getting used to, but it is so comfortable to not only sit in but also to get in and out of - nice tall entry and lots of head room.

graphicguy

Mike....I get what you're saying.

The way I view it, I don't know how much the dealership has to charge me to make a profit. I do know what I'm offering, and that's all I can control. If they want to make the deal, it's all good. If not, and I walk, no harm-no foul!

The management at the same dealership that was there before the current staff, didn't really seem to care about finding what I wanted, finding what I wanted, or entertaining my offers.

jmonroe

andres3 said:

roadburner said:

jmonroe said:

I don't get how that is any better than the "Legal Disclaimer" screen. You still have to get rid of that screen to get to the screens you want displayed. All of it is a waste of time.

After the first time the "Legal Disclaimer" screen pops up nobody reads it again anyhow.

However, I am surprised that BMW allows the "Legal Disclaimer" screen to be overridden.

jmonroe

The screen I changed was the start-up or "splash" screen. It comes up after the car has been turned for an extended period of time and goes off on it's own. After that comes the "Legal Disclaimer" which requires confirmation to turn it off. You get the disclaimer screen EVERY time the car is started- unless it's disabled.

What is this "Legal Disclaimer?"

Sounds terribly annoying to me. What does it say? I find the ugly air bag warning caution notices and un-removable stickers on the sun visors annoying as well.

I think you have to live with the air bag warning lights unless you know how to pull a bulb, or, you could put tape over it if it bothers you so much.

The visor thingy is easy. You get a razor blade and cut around the sticker then tape over that with nice matching cloth tape that is found at hobby stores.

OR you can do what the normal driver does...LIVE WITH IT .

jmonroe

jmonroe

oldfarmer50 said:

P

jmonroe said:

I have a story that is just the opposite of what @abacomike encountered at the Walmart restroom. I told this story long ago on one of the Edmunds forums but since the subject has come up again, I'll do a little repeat. What was that? I think that noise we just heard was @driver100 slamming his laptop shut.

Anyway here goes:

When we lived in SC Mrs. j wanted to know where to find some nice accent stuff for the house we just built vs. the everyday stuff you see everywhere. Not expensive things, just a little different than the ordinary. A few of our neighbors told her to go to a standalone place in the back of the Augusta Mall complex. So we went and while there, I had to use the boys room. It was amazingly clean, actually immaculate, smell and all. Just like you have in your own home. I asked to speak to the manager and the woman asked if she could help but I told her I wanted to speak to the manager myself.

I told the manager I was not going to complain but rather compliment him on a very clean men's room. He was very surprised and thanked me. He went on to say that the thing that bothers him most when he is out is dirty restrooms. Therefore, he told all of his employees to come to him when they notice the restrooms were getting dirty because he wanted to hear it from them rather than from customers. He thanked me again and I went off to find Mrs. j. When I caught up with her she wanted to know what we were talking about, so I told her. Every time we went to this store, at least 4 other times after that first visit, when the manager saw us he would come over to say hello. It got to the point when Mrs. j saw him coming in our direction she would say, "here comes your buddy".

Fast forward (just for you @driver100 ) to about 2 months after our first visit. Mrs. j was out doing herself this time with "nice stuff". There was a little more than $350 of "nice stuff" in our cart. Excuse me, HER cart, there wasn't a damn thing in that cart for me. She even found a discounted 6 x 8 foot rug that would "fit perfectly" in the foyer.

Finally, she is done shopping and we go to the checkout line. When we got to the head of the line I saw the woman wave to the manager. When everything is rung up, all of a sudden the total changes to a lower price. When I ask what just happened she said, "you got a discount per the managers direction". I still didn't know what had happened and she said, "here he comes now. He'll explain it to you". He said, "as you know, I've seen you in here a few times since your first visit but you made relatively small purchase then so I waited for you to make a larger purchase so this 15% discount would be more valuable". I never had anything like that happen before or since.

Not often but sometimes when I open my mouth I say the right thing.

jmonroe

It's funny that you didn't realize that he was just hitting on your wife.

The husband is always the last to know.

Now you tell me. :@

jmonroe

abacomike

graphicguy said:

Mike....I get what you're saying. The way I view it, I don't know how much the dealership has to charge me to make a profit. I do know what I'm offering, and that's all I can control. If they want to make the deal, it's all good. If not, and I walk, no harm-no foul! The management at the same dealership that was there before the current staff, didn't really seem to care about finding what I wanted, finding what I wanted, or entertaining my offers.

A good management team at a dealership is always interested in finding out exactly what the customer wants.  As for finding the exact car a customer wants, I used to bend over backwards to dealer trade for the exact car.  Sometimes, there is a car coming into the port or already at the port which makes things easier.

I actually never remember special ordering a car from Japan for a customer.  It took almost 3 months from the time I would order inventory cars until the cars arrived.  For German cars, it only takes 7-8 weeks.

I am so very happy you got that Infiniti - they build a great car.  Unfortunately their sedans are not big enough for my comfort needs and they are too low in profile.

Just enjoy the new car, GG.

jmonroe

oldfarmer50 said:

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

Michaell said:

Autocross vs. HPDE - isn't autocross a low speed affair? I can see it chewing up tires and brakes.

HPDE is on a track, so all parts of the car are stressed.

High Plains Raceway, east of Denver, hosts a lot of events. I keep thinking I'd like to try it one day, but I worry about insurance and wear and tear on the Jetta.

http://highplainsraceway.com/

If it is your first HPDE event, I woudln't worry about much wear and tear outside of your brake pads and tires. You won't be breaking any speed or lap records your first outing as a rookie.

Audi club recommends you have fresh brake fluid (less than a year old). Other then that, you are good to go. Plus, isn't your Jetta leased?

@andres3 - thanks for the info. Yes, if I were to do it, it would be my first. (I've driven supercars at PPIR in the past, with an instructor next to me).

Was poking around the site and they offer 1/2 day instruction for something like $300-400. Open driving is $100-120 for a half day.

Yes, the Jetta is leased. Is that a problem?

Only for the guy who buys it after you return it.

I was wondering when you would say something about that.

When Son #1 blew up his '91 Grand Prix due to autocrossing he sold it via private sale. The guy that bought it was stunned at how good it looked and was expecting some body dents too. He bought it without negotiating.

Shiny sheet metal sells fast even if what is under it was abused. This buyer knew the history and still wanted his car. I don't think you can say the same for buyers at dealership lots.

jmonroe

driver100

abacomike said:

@driver100

You called the Audi A6 a "barge".  Perhaps compared to a C Class Mercedes, but certainly not a new Mercedes E400 or a new BMW 540i.  I've driven the A6 and found it to be a bit tight on the inside compared to the 540i or the E400, but certainly not a barge.

I know your opinion of the Manufacturer Audi, but their products are considered well built automobiles.  I am still skiddish of Audi due to past negative experiences, as are you, however if you are looking to identify a barge in their lineup, pick the A8L - now that's a barge - but so is the 740Li and the S550.

Just my opinion, driver. 

Mike, just to clarify, my impression of an A6 as a barge was not because of the size....it is the same as an E400 or 535. The barge aspect comes from the way it drives. It did nothing for me...no wow factor at all. I was trading in a 2012 535 for a 2015 A6 but I liked the handling and driving dynamics of my 535 more than the newer A6. There was NO excitement factor....the interior colors were all soft neutrals, outside colors weren't exciting, they don't look great in white (a white car looks great but it has to be well designed to look good in white). Seating position was low and glass area was not large......barge had to do with the way the car felt, not the size. The E400 has lots of glass, high seating, high roofline, lots of contrasting colored interiors to choose from, nicer dash and console and a built in media center (which I prefer).

The A6 was had no fun or big enjoyment level for me.....it was just a, well, ............big barge.

driver100

Roadrunner and track people. Here is my question, when you trade in your cars do you have to disclose they were used for tracking....or would they know that from the equipment on it anyway?

Guesss it doesn't appear on CARFAX?

qbrozen

driver100 said:

Roadrunner and track people. Here is my question, when you trade in your cars do you have to disclose they were used for tracking....or would they know that from the equipment on it anyway? Guesss it doesn't appear on CARFAX?

No, of course not. And it doesn't need any extra equipment. I tracked my G35x bone stock. IMHO, driving a car everyday in heavy traffic is way harder on a car than driving on a track. 

fintail

And they have good parking/docking assist features for tight spots. With the thick pillars and high rear decks of most modern cars, along with crooked zoning boards who allow shrinking parking spots, cameras and sensors certainy can't hurt, unless you own a paintless dent repair shop.

abacomike said:

I call my 740Li a "yacht" because pulling into or out of a parking spot is like maneuvering a big boat.  Same for making tight turns.  It takes a lot of getting used to, but it is so comfortable to not only sit in but also to get in and out of - nice tall entry and lots of head room.

houdini1

andres3 said:

houdini1 said:

andres3 said:

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

Michaell said:

Autocross vs. HPDE - isn't autocross a low speed affair? I can see it chewing up tires and brakes.

HPDE is on a track, so all parts of the car are stressed.

High Plains Raceway, east of Denver, hosts a lot of events. I keep thinking I'd like to try it one day, but I worry about insurance and wear and tear on the Jetta.

http://highplainsraceway.com/

If it is your first HPDE event, I woudln't worry about much wear and tear outside of your brake pads and tires. You won't be breaking any speed or lap records your first outing as a rookie.

Audi club recommends you have fresh brake fluid (less than a year old). Other then that, you are good to go. Plus, isn't your Jetta leased?

@andres3 - thanks for the info. Yes, if I were to do it, it would be my first. (I've driven supercars at PPIR in the past, with an instructor next to me).

Was poking around the site and they offer 1/2 day instruction for something like $300-400. Open driving is $100-120 for a half day.

Yes, the Jetta is leased. Is that a problem?

Not at all, it just means if you are worried the wear and tear might make the drive-train last 200,000 miles rather than 250,000 miles, you don't need to really worry about that as a leaser; unless of course you decide to keep it forever, but who are you kidding?

Naw, I wouldn't worry about driving a car hard, probably just a coincidence that so many of those well engineered, highly tuned, and finely balanced cars are not even able to go 24 hours at Le Mans. Probably the greatest reliability test there is. About 60 of the best cars in the world start the race, and they're lucky if half of them finish. Sometimes only 10 or so finish. Maybe 4 to 5 thousand miles covered. Might take 2 or 3 weeks but I believe I could finish the course in a Chrysler 200.

The 24 Hour of Le Mans is like the Superbowl of auto races. The very best of the best drivers drive these highly specialized cars past their limits (not up to their limits). For instance, a lot of the nannies on your everyday Audi are probably not installed on the R18 race car. These race cars are designed to last 24 hours (if well designed), not 200,000 miles.

Also, a lot of the cars that don't finish are due to crashes and collisions, not mechanical failure, but again, they are driving at and above the limit, your average HPDE hobbiest is peewee league compared to that; even the instructors. Also, a typical HPDE weekend 2-days at a track event is eight 25 minute sessions at most, separated by rest and lengthy cool-down periods for your vehicles and driver. No driving full blast hours on end with what were talking here. Within those 25 minutes sessions you usually have a warm up and cool down lap as well, and you aren't racing, but simply learning how to drive at a high performance level and exploring your car's limits in a safe environment.

My point is that you can damage any car by driving it too hard for too long and too often, and that there is a difference between "spirited driving" and recklessly abusing a car.

graphicguy

abacomike said:

graphicguy said:

Mike....I get what you're saying.

The way I view it, I don't know how much the dealership has to charge me to make a profit. I do know what I'm offering, and that's all I can control. If they want to make the deal, it's all good. If not, and I walk, no harm-no foul!

The management at the same dealership that was there before the current staff, didn't really seem to care about finding what I wanted, finding what I wanted, or entertaining my offers.

A good management team at a dealership is always interested in finding out exactly what the customer wants.  As for finding the exact car a customer wants, I used to bend over backwards to dealer trade for the exact car.  Sometimes, there is a car coming into the port or already at the port which makes things easier.

I actually never remember special ordering a car from Japan for a customer.  It took almost 3 months from the time I would order inventory cars until the cars arrived.  For German cars, it only takes 7-8 weeks.

I am so very happy you got that Infiniti - they build a great car.  Unfortunately their sedans are not big enough for my comfort needs and they are too low in profile.

Just enjoy the new car, GG.

Thanks, Mike....so far, so good! It's a very well built car. It's fast, and handles well. Sounds expensive when you get on the engine (I don't think it's artificial sound being pumped in). So far, everything does what it's supposed to do, and does it well.

I don't ask any dealer to trade with another dealer. If they look at their incoming reports and find something I like, I'm OK with that, too. Ordering from the Factory from any manufacturer who has to get the vehicle from Japan is something I wouldn't do, for the exact same reasons you mentioned....it takes forever as they aren't set up for special ordering.

BMW can get a car in 6-8 weeks as a special order, though. Not sure about Mercedes.

I only special ordered one car from the factory. That was a 2005 Mustang GT. It took 10 weeks. At the time, those cars were so hot, dealers didn't have much in the way of stock. They just took special orders.

roadburner

abacomike said:

A good management team at a dealership is always interested in finding out exactly what the customer wants.  As for finding the exact car a customer wants, I used to bend over backwards to dealer trade for the exact car.  Sometimes, there is a car coming into the port or already at the port which makes things easier.

I actually never remember special ordering a car from Japan for a customer.  It took almost 3 months from the time I would order inventory cars until the cars arrived.  For German cars, it only takes 7-8 weeks.

I am so very happy you got that Infiniti - they build a great car.  Unfortunately their sedans are not big enough for my comfort needs and they are too low in profile.

Just enjoy the new car, GG.

At our center we never try to push customers into existing inventory; we want to get them what THEY want. One nice thing about all the BMW trucks save the X1 is that they are built in SC; the time from order to delivery is usually less than four week- as long as the customer doesn't want any BMW Individual colors or trim.

stickguy

if I ever decide to splurge on a brand new X1 or X3, definitely going to Spartenburg to pick it up there and get the delivery experience.

roadburner

houdini1 said:

My point is that you can damage any car by driving it too hard for too long and too often, and that there is a difference between "spirited driving" and recklessly abusing a car.

I agree in that I always let the car warm up properly and I am OCD about maintenance, That said,once the ti was broken in I beat on it like a redheaded stepchild. The power band starts north of 3500 rpm so you have to keep the engine on the boil to make brisk progress. 21 years and 144k miles later it seems none the worse fo wear.

graphicguy

qbrozen said:

driver100 said:

Roadrunner and track people. Here is my question, when you trade in your cars do you have to disclose they were used for tracking....or would they know that from the equipment on it anyway?

Guesss it doesn't appear on CARFAX?

No, of course not. And it doesn't need any extra equipment. I tracked my G35x bone stock. IMHO, driving a car everyday in heavy traffic is way harder on a car than driving on a track. 

Q.....interesting you mention the G3x. When I was talking to my dealer sales person, he said they LOVE getting Gs in trade....except for those that aren't stock (which are lowballed on a trade and sent to auction).

He said for some reason, the Gs that are modded (mostly cosmetics, but some performance related) seem like they draw amatuer hour modders. He said mostly, the ones who want a G to mod it can't afford to....and, lack expertise to do it correctly.

Bone stock? He said the dealership loves those as they sell quickly and they can make some money on them.

The modded ones are sold at auction to the buy here/pay here lots as they can wrap them into a (relatively) low weekly payment as they're cheap to buy.

abacomike

driver100 said:

@driver100

You called the Audi A6 a "barge".  Perhaps compared to a C Class Mercedes, but certainly not a new Mercedes E400 or a new BMW 540i.  I've driven the A6 and found it to be a bit tight on the inside compared to the 540i or the E400, but certainly not a barge.

I know your opinion of the Manufacturer Audi, but their products are considered well built automobiles.  I am still skiddish of Audi due to past negative experiences, as are you, however if you are looking to identify a barge in their lineup, pick the A8L - now that's a barge - but so is the 740Li and the S550.

Just my opinion, driver. 

Mike, just to clarify, my impression of an A6 as a barge was not because of the size....it is the same as an E400 or 535. The barge aspect comes from the way it drives. It did nothing for me...no wow factor at all. I was trading in a 2012 535 for a 2015 A6 but I liked the handling and driving dynamics of my 535 more than the newer A6. There was NO excitement factor....the interior colors were all soft neutrals, outside colors weren't exciting, they don't look great in white (a white car looks great but it has to be well designed to look good in white). Seating position was low and glass area was not large......barge had to do with the way the car felt, not the size. The E400 has lots of glass, high seating, high roofline, lots of contrasting colored interiors to choose from, nicer dash and console and a built in media center (which I prefer). The A6 was had no fun or big enjoyment level for me.....it was just a, well, ............big barge.

Gotcha - thanks for the elaboration of "barge"! 

abacomike

fintail said:

And they have good parking/docking assist features for tight spots. With the thick pillars and high rear decks of most modern cars, along with crooked zoning boards who allow shrinking parking spots, cameras and sensors certainy can't hurt, unless you own a paintless dent repair shop.

I call my 740Li a "yacht" because pulling into or out of a parking spot is like maneuvering a big boat.  Same for making tight turns.  It takes a lot of getting used to, but it is so comfortable to not only sit in but also to get in and out of - nice tall entry and lots of head room.

Yes, fintail, those sensors and cameras (especially the 360 degree birds eye view of the car) sure  helps me pull into a parking space straight.  I am shown an image of the amount of space I have on each side with all 4 doors wide open.  Nice feature that helps me maneuver the "yacht" into tight spots.  

roadburner

driver100 said:

Roadrunner and track people. Here is my question, when you trade in your cars do you have to disclose they were used for tracking....or would they know that from the equipment on it anyway?

Guesss it doesn't appear on CARFAX?

If someone asks I'll tell them, but I'd bet the farm that no one would be able to tell which cars of mine have been tracked and which haven't.

abacomike

roadburner said:

A good management team at a dealership is always interested in finding out exactly what the customer wants.  As for finding the exact car a customer wants, I used to bend over backwards to dealer trade for the exact car.  Sometimes, there is a car coming into the port or already at the port which makes things easier.

I actually never remember special ordering a car from Japan for a customer.  It took almost 3 months from the time I would order inventory cars until the cars arrived.  For German cars, it only takes 7-8 weeks.

I am so very happy you got that Infiniti - they build a great car.  Unfortunately their sedans are not big enough for my comfort needs and they are too low in profile.

Just enjoy the new car, GG.

At our center we never try to push customers into existing inventoy; we want to get them what THEY want. One nice thing about all the BMW trucks save the X1 is that they are built in SC; the time from order to delivery is usually less than four week- as long as the customer doesn't want any BMW Individual colors or trim.

My brother ordered his 2017 X5 loaded in December and he took delivery in January.  Yes, since they are now built here, it takes much less time to order and receive it now - BMW SUV's that is.

driver100

abacomike said:

roadburner said:

abacomike said:

A good management team at a dealership is always interested in finding out exactly what the customer wants.  As for finding the exact car a customer wants, I used to bend over backwards to dealer trade for the exact car.  Sometimes, there is a car coming into the port or already at the port which makes things easier.

I actually never remember special ordering a car from Japan for a customer.  It took almost 3 months from the time I would order inventory cars until the cars arrived.  For German cars, it only takes 7-8 weeks.

I am so very happy you got that Infiniti - they build a great car.  Unfortunately their sedans are not big enough for my comfort needs and they are too low in profile.

Just enjoy the new car, GG.

At our center we never try to push customers into existing inventoy; we want to get them what THEY want. One nice thing about all the BMW trucks save the X1 is that they are built in SC; the time from order to delivery is usually less than four week- as long as the customer doesn't want any BMW Individual colors or trim.

My brother ordered his 2017 X5 loaded in December and he took delivery in January.  Yes, since they are now built here, it takes much less time to order and receive it now - BMW SUV's that is.

Guess I should have ordered an X5!

Nah, I am still excited about this state of the art E400......just hope they can get it certified.

driver100

GG, Why not file your problem with NHTSA? I know I asked earlier and Mike asked earlier. Isn't it better to attack from two fronts,,,,,and besides they should be aware of your cars safety issues?

Maybe you have your reasons but why not make their life as miserable as possible too.

FILING A COMPLAINT

driver100

roadburner said:

driver100 said:

Roadrunner and track people. Here is my question, when you trade in your cars do you have to disclose they were used for tracking....or would they know that from the equipment on it anyway?

Guesss it doesn't appear on CARFAX?

If someone asks I'll tell them, but I'd bet the farm that no one would be able to tell which cars of mine have been tracked and which haven't.

Thanks for your reply....probably another reason to buy new rather than used.....or at least CPO.

abacomike

I was checking the tires on my car for wear now that I have over 3000 miles on the odometer. They are Michelin Primacy MXM4 ZP tires, run flat of course. I looked these OEM tires up online and they cost about $1100 for the set of 4, not including installation, balancing, etc. Luckily, these are supposed to get 35,000 - 45,000 miles. They have a limited warranty of 55,000 up to 6 years. Would be nice if I could find out how many miles I can put on these tires - for a change!

jmonroe

abacomike said:

I was checking the tires on my car for wear now that I have over 3000 miles on the odometer. They are Michelin Primacy MXM4 ZP tires, run flat of course. I looked these OEM tires up online and they cost about $1100 for the set of 4, not including installation, balancing, etc. Luckily, these are supposed to get 35,000 - 45,000 miles. They have a limited warranty of 55,000 up to 6 years. Would be nice if I could find out how many miles I can put on these tires - for a change!

Mike, we are all aware you won't need to know how long your tires will last.

There are over/under bets in here that you won't even get to 3 oil changes.

jmonroe

abacomike

jmonroe said:

abacomike said:

I was checking the tires on my car for wear now that I have over 3000 miles on the odometer. They are Michelin Primacy MXM4 ZP tires, run flat of course. I looked these OEM tires up online and they cost about $1100 for the set of 4, not including installation, balancing, etc. Luckily, these are supposed to get 35,000 - 45,000 miles. They have a limited warranty of 55,000 up to 6 years. Would be nice if I could find out how many miles I can put on these tires - for a change!

Mike, we are all aware you won't need to know how long your tires will last.

There are over/under bets in here that you won't even get to 3 oil changes.

jmonroe

Can I get in on the "over/under bets" that I won't get to 3 oil changes? I got to one on the CLS400, maybe I can get to 3 on this one!

stickguy

Only if you go back to the old days of 3 month or 3,000 mile intervals!