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And you just proved how little you know (again). The '05 CR-V EX actually gets 1 mpg better highway mileage than the '02-'04 due to the 5 speed tranny.
Oh and that glass houses thing again. Reread the Consumer Reports review of the Escape and it's poor braking.
Of course, those are figures based on the EPA driving cycle. In the real world, the results could be very different.
The real advantage to the 5-speed automatic transmission is smoother shifts, and lower rpms at highway speeds (less noise). I expect the additional weight of the new models will negate any positive impact provided by the closer gearing when it comes to acceleration. If we see a change in measured acceleration performance, it *may* be a result of the upgraded AWD system via improved launches.
As for pricing, Scape2 seems to be forgetting that the Escape tops out well above $26K for limited models. I can get a Highlander or LX Pilot for that kind of scratch.
Anyone that has shopped an Escape and a CRV will easily find out that Honda dealerships bargain very little if any. You pay or you walk. The CRV is higher priced in the Northwest region. I have proved this over and over until I am blue in my typing fingers.. Option for option you will pay more to have "the silver H" than a Blue Oval, a Bow Tie or a Dodge/Mazda whichever...
I am one of a growing number that is learning you don't have to pay Honda prices to get good reliable and quality transportation. I am your worst nightmare. A happy Ford owner with a very reliable 01 Escape
That is a good thing, especially here on a comparison board. This board needs the pros and cons of each vehicle to help shoppers decide which vehicle is going to be their next purchase.
Same way you do. If you're going to quote MSRP prices for an SE (and claim it's the price for an EX), then I'll quote MSRP for the Escape.
You visit one dealer in one region of the country and you make the statement "Anyone that has shopped an Escape and a CRV (sic) will easily find out that Honda dealerships bargain very little if any." and "You pay or you walk."
When you have visited every Honda dealer and attempt to purchase a vehicle at every one of them only then will you be qualified to make a general statement like that. Until you do you are wrong.
I have shown you numerous times that people pay invoice (or less) for a Honda vehicle. Just like they do for every other vehicle make that is sold. Look on Edmunds alone and you will find hundreds of posts about people "bargaining" for their Honda.
You say "Option for option you will pay more to have "the silver H" than a Blue Oval, a Bow Tie or a Dodge/Mazda whichever..."
I have shown you numerous times that an Escape will cost more than a comparably equipped CR-V when list prices are compared. Because the one dealer you visit doesn't bargain means nothing.
To say that Honda delaers "bargain very little if any" is a lie.
You say "I am one of a growing number that is learning you don't have to pay Honda prices to get good reliable and quality transportation.". That is your opinion. Honda sales are up. So obviously someone is paying "Honda prices". Which for them is a vehicle at a price they find fair, whether it is at invoice, below invoice or at list price.
As for reliability, when facts are presented that show Honda continues to produce a more reliable vehicle you ignore them.
lets see now, the CRV has how many recalls now? and what about this engine fire issue that is all over the net?? And, what about Honda blocking TSB's at some sites? How can you come to a conclusion when there is no data? Just the editor/reviewer making a claim that Honda's are more reliable..
I own a Ford that has been very reliable. According to your claims its not supposed to be. I see no reason to pay the Honda premium price for this so called reliability advantage, because there is none. More and more folks are finding this out and rethinking their purchases.
Hey Varmint, how ya doing?
/I'm personally hiding all my TSB's
Oh, 'bout the same I suppose. If I'm making any progress, let me know.
Nice to hear from you!
Consumer Reports, Motorweek, Car and Driver, Motor Trend and JD Power among others consistently say that Honda produces a more reliable vehicle than Ford. But of course people who do this as their business are wrong and you are right.
Where is your evidence of the "Honda premium price"? You don't have any. I have showed you hundreds of people who pay a fair price for a Honda and you ignore the facts. The Escape costs more than a comparably equipped CR-V when list prices are compared. That is a fact and you ignore it.
If "more and more folks are finding this out and rethinking their purchases" of Hondas why are Honda sales up?
Your TSB conspiracy theory has been addressed literally a hundred times and you still bring it up.
You constantly bring up the fact on the CR-V engine fire thread where you only post to bait people that people harped on the Escape when it had its recalls but noone does anything when Honda has issues. Do you not see the 500 posts related to the issue (although dozens of them are you inflamatory posts)? Do you not see all the other threads about issues with Hondas (as well as every other car)?
tidester, host
This dosen't mean they are better than anything else out there. Just that Honda, in general, makes vehicles that are a good value.
Still got my 99ex. Just replaced the front pads at 60k. Time for some regular maintainance.
Stastistics is very prone for manipulation. The very same data can be used to derive different results in favor of other side.
I support that consumers have no way of knowing that certain cars are better than other by looking at these magazines. True results can only be obtained from discussion groups by prospective buyer.
"Emperical data supports that most Honda models do have higher than average reliability."
You Honda owners must tell me what defines reliable car? Item by item... Can you do that for me?
Who collects this empirical data for Honda and where this observed data come from?
Serious issues that create big affect on reliability reports in those magazines are handled by Honda dealers due to so called "TSB Conspiracy".
Third party repair shops don't know how to fix Honda (I am not talking brakes service or TBelt replacement here)
Stastistics is very prone for manipulation. The very same data can be used to derive different results in favor of other side.
I support that consumers have no way of knowing that certain cars are better than other by looking at these magazines. True results can only be obtained from discussion groups by prospective buyer.
You Honda owners must tell me what defines reliable car? Item by item... Can you do that for me?
May be I can assist on several ones here...
Reliable car doesnt have transmission issue?
Reliable car starts every time you turn on the ignition?
Reliable car doesn't pull due to poor tire quality?
Realiable car doesn't have engine fire due to design issues.
I'll be objective, so Ford doesn't have these? Oh! yes it does,
Escape had stalling problems and transmission issues on 2001 and some of 2002. These are very normal for every manufacturer for 1st year production. Focus had bunch of issues on brake components during first and second year of production. Explorer had suspension and tire related issues, older G2 Tauruses had blown head gaskets...
But there is one thing I see here that Honda and Ford are in opposite directions/trends. Ford has improved it's production and QA line dramaticaly.
Less and less Ford products are having problems. I get this impression from Ford related discussion forums. At the other side, Honda is having more and more problems. I hear more and more Honda issues
So these are just small examples. You Honda supporters, how could you tell Honda is better than any other car manufacturer while it is having all these issues?
People have a right to their opinion. I don't think people just wake up one day and think Honda is more reliable than another manufacturer. There is evidence. Certain people choose to ignore this. Certain people debunk the very meaning of statistics as long as they don't support their point of view. Sad.
Reasons have been given hundreds of times as to why Honda's problems are now considered an issue. Proliferation of the internet and sites like these being a major one. 10 years ago it was word of mouth and similar that built a companies reputation (whether cars or anything else). Like it or not Honda built it's reliable reputation on facts. Just like Ford and other makers have to rebuild theres because of their poor history.
My own experience is that the vehicles are very reliable, and Honda is quick to fix any issue that find.
My mothers 1992 Ford Escort went to 120,000 miles until it was totaled in an accident. Yet, the civic is just "better"? why? Facts can be scewed and twisted. What about the article here at Edmunds about how their Honda Pilot left them stranded?? Does this mean all Honda Pilts are unreliable?
Please post to the forum at 200,000 miles, or maybe 250K. I intend to...
These days if a car won't go 100,000 miles, there is something very wrong. As it gets really old that the reliability factors in.
People commenting about American cars clearly never driven one lately.
For my own taste, I picked up Escape because of
1.Easy to repair, parts are cheap and available every where.
2.Comes with V6 Duratec 200 HP engine that I am very familiar from Taurus.
3.Off road and towing functions.
4.My good experiece with Taurus and Ford motor.
5.Rebates.
6.it's rugged look and feel.
One has to drive the vehicles appropriately. The Ford does well with the torque of the V6, while the Honda does well, but requires a willingness to allow the engine to REV into VTEC territory.
Of course, for towing, the Escape is clearly the better choice. Personally, I don't tow.
First I test drove an 05 Escape XLT Auto. I was really impressed with the seat fabric for one. Two pattern seats, a decent center console, and above average fit and finish over the usual Fords I have seen (My parents have been driving F-150's and Crown Victorias for over 20 years). It was surprisingly quiet, level in corners, and attacked steep grades with ease. I did not have much highway driving, but I came away impressed.
Second I drove a CR-V EX. The interior seemed a little dated, but very functional and comfortable. The CR-V felt "lighter" than the Escape, if a bit less substantial. Maybe it was the flatter doors, or the smaller (looking) seats. It just felt a little "less", but felt more "refined". Subjective enough? LOL It seemed a little louder, but I didn't find it objectional at all. The Cr-V downshifted readily for hills and felt very stable. It felt nearly as strong as the V6 Escape. I did not have much highway driving with the CR-V.
I received a $75 gift certificate mailer to test drive a Mariner. Seeing it, it looks quite classy, like the Escape was going out for cocktails. The chrome handles inside look, if not feel, much more substantial than the black plastic handles in the Escape. I test drove the 2.3L 4 cyl, Auto 4WD.
Though the looks of the Mariner impressed, the 2.3 Duratec did not. Neither did the salesman, who seems to think he was doing me a favor by letting me drive it. Whatever, I'm not buying for a few months anyway. Back to the engine - it was loud, and tried very hard, and I could tell by the nosie it made. I can't imagine what the 2.0L was like in 04. I took it out on the high way. and experienced a similar shortcoming to my 90HP Golf - no umph on the on ramp. Lots of noise though. This engine was squealing like Ned Beatty in Deliverance.
I'm still tossed up between the CR-V and Escape. Going by dealerships, the Honda dealers were very pleasant, low pressure, and offered right up front that they will offer exactly what I wasn't, just do it 6-8 weeks prior. They said this at both Honda dealers I went to. Classy, simple, no pressure sales people.
The Mercury guy put me off, but that's just one dealer.
The Ford dealer I spoke with was very friendly, but was trying very hard to get me to buy that day, almost to the point it was annoying.
Looks like whoever gets the best price will win it for me. The CR-V LX with alloys or an Escape XLT V6. I'd imagine the ford dealers will neg. more, and may have incentives. I somehow doubt the will be incentives on the Honda. I figure (just a guess, from reading Prices Paid posts) I'll get about $750 of the CR-V, and get the Escape for invoice. The Mariner with a V6 would be nice, but the price increase over an Escape I can't justify. Anybody else have comments to weigh in?
Depends... Whatcha gonna do with it? Are you towing, commuting, hauling kids, toting dogs, going off-road, trucking through snow...?
Agree with you on the 2.3L option for the Escape. While 0-60mph times are not the final word on acceleration, C&D measured the 4 cyl Escape using weeks, not seconds. To be fair, it's the transmission that's the problem, not the engine.
/"you will never -- NEVER -- see my TSBs!" Mr. Honda
Drive safe and enjoy every sandwich.
Scape2:
If you will quote me, please quote me accurately. I never claimed that all CR-Vs that were produced made it to 200K.
I have no idea how many CR-Vs made it to 200+ K miles. For one thing, it depends upon regular maintenance. What I said was that I intend to post when my CR-V gets to 200K. I have read of many first gen CR-Vs that are over 150K, and higher, in other sites.
One other thing you might check is the Subaru Forester. It gets slightly better mileage than the CR-V. It was too small for me, but it may fit your lifestyle, and it has full time four wheel drive, great for snow. It's really more of a tall station wagan than an SUV, in my opinion; you have to like that style of car to buy one.
It really depends on what you are going to use the vehicle for. If you do alot of skiing, hauling, outdoor, towing ect the V6 Escape is the choice. If it is going to be used for mostly around town the CRV or Escape/Tribute 4cyl will do just fine. Your the first person who I have heard the new 2.3 is "noisy". The new 2.3 is a vast improvemnt over the 2.0 Zetec in terms of power and refinement. The 2.3 was developed by Mazda and is used in the Mazda 3 along with Ford/Mazda trucks. I would go with the V6 in the Escape/Tribute. The MPG difference is about 2MPG. The extra power is a blast and nice to have when needed. As far as pricing goes, you hit it right on the money. Ford/Mazda will negotiate, Honda usually does not very much... Take more test drives and let us know what you get!
If you get the Escape, go for the 6 cyl, definitely.
I think the CR-V is a better choice for the 4 cyl. (well, OK, 1/2 agree with scape2)...
The V6 is much stronger than the CRV's 4 banger, no comparison.
I felt squished in the CRV and baby seats don't fit well in the back of the CRV, in the Tribute/Escape there was more room in the passenger areas.
It was a tough choice I have always loved Honda's and would have got the Pilot if the wife didn't feel it was too big to drive.
The 05 Tribute in the end won our money.
http://www.dailyherald.com/business/business_story.asp?intid=3832- 3145
Well, to be utterly fair, the SUV sales that are delcining are the larger models, including the Explorer. But it should be noted that Ford is afraid they will fall below 400,000 Explorers sold next year. 400,000! So relatively speaking, they are still selling a lot of those larger SUVs.
But this thread is Escape and CR-V.
I think that has a lot to do with it right now. Bill Ford himself even said (see the article below about halfway down) that the days of one model selling in big numbers are over and it's time to "cannibalize" their own brands as others like Toyota and Honda have been doing. For example, selling the Element and CR-V on the same lot.
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101343
I shopped both cars, and believe me, they are very different vehicles. I think they bring in more sales rather than detract from each other.
I understand that they are very different as are the Freestyle and Explorer. But now you have choices on the same lot. When Honda only had the CR-V and Ford only had the Explorer sales of both were much higher than they are now.
Besides, doesn't Honda build the CR-V and Element on the same line? You can only build so many and therefore sell so many of each. One will have to suffer if the other one takes off.
The Element is built here in the US on one of the Ohio lines. CR-Vs are built in England and Japan. Of course, stuff like engines and other parts may have limited capacity, but assembly resources are not in conflict.
Nope. The Element is built in the US, the CR-V is built in Japan and England.
2) Is it possible to get either car without privacy glass? The dark tinting makes night vision more difficult.