CR-V vs Escape

stevedebi

"I know that most magazines state that the Escape and CRV are almost equal with 0-60 times, but Mazda has tuned and geared the Tribute to be a little quicker and I noticed a slight advantage to the Mazda. I definitely felt the Mazda had better passing power."

 

Yes, that is a chararistic of the CR-V. You have to floor the car to get it to downshift when passing, otherwise it is slow to accelerate. The engine is made to rev high and will supply plenty of power, but it feels a bit unusual to anyone used to the passing characterisitcs of most American vehicles. It takes some time to master. The Honda folks evidently geared the car for city driving.

dc_driver

I think both me and the wife are spoiled because our other car is a 2002 Nissan Altima SE that is lighter than both the Tribute and CRV, and has a 245HP V6 engine that flat out goes. Don't get me wrong, the CRV was definitely not slow, kodos to Honda for making such an excellent 4cyl engine, but I give a slight nod to the V6 in the Tribute for the extra HP and torque (although at the expensive at the pump). I too, would be surprised if Honda put a V6 in the CRV. I would think that they will try and go hybrid with this car (obviously Ford was smart to do this with the Escape, and cannot keep them on the lot). I would guess that a Hybrid CRV would be pushing the high 30mpg to low 40mpg range on the highway...

varmint

"I think both me and the wife are spoiled because our other car is a 2002 Nissan Altima SE that is lighter than both the Tribute and CRV, and has a 245HP V6 engine that flat out goes."

 

LOL. Yeah, that'll do it. I have little trouble with my 1999 CR-V because I'm accustomed to it. But there are times when I go from my wife's Acura TL to the CR-V and it's like night and day. It requires a different driving style.

baggs32

Heck I even have a hard time adjusting to the Escape after driving a Mazda6 S all week. Both have the same 3.0L Duratec engine block but the Mazda is tuned for a good bit more HP but less torque.

 

Well, being that the 6 is a 5-speed MTX doesn't help either.

drive62

For those who feel safety is a priority (as opposed to say "leather heated seats") the choice is pretty obvious.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041210/us_nm/au- tos_crashtest_dc_3

stevedebi

"For those who feel safety is a priority (as opposed to say "leather heated seats") the choice is pretty obvious. "

 

Or, just make sure that the Escape is ordered with the optional safety airbags.

 

And of course, the CR-V SE has heated leather seats, so you don't have to forgo them by getting the CR-V...

scape2

No, my mission is not to take down Honda. My whole point is Honda has been put on this pedestal that I believe is all hype. I have owned Honda products and just don't see what is so great about them. I am sick and tired of hearing that it is just status quo that a Honda will be more "reliable" than a Ford no questions asked. Honda has problems. The internet and forums such as Edmunds lets these problems be known. There are plenty of peeved off Honda owners out on the net in various other chat rooms and you'll even find some here at Edmunds. Now, if I were a Ford basher would you ask the same about me trying to bring Ford down?

scape2

Just order the Escape with side airbags..

varmint

Have to agree with Scape2 on the side impact tests. While the safety package for the Escape is optional, it doesn't raise the price above that of a similarly equipped CR-V. And the side impact test scores are close enough.

 

The frontal impacts are different. Both the NHTSA and IIHS rate the CR-V higher. And then there's stability control in the CR-V's favor.

 

Anyway, when properly equipped, I see no reason to think the 2005 Escape unsafe. Previous model years (before they buttressed the crush zones) were more of a concern.

baggs32

Previous model years (before they buttressed the crush zones) were more of a concern.

 

I've made it known here that I am not in agreement with the IIHS offset crash. Still not. But I have to admit their side impact crash does seem a lot more realistic to me (if you look at it as a worst case scenario) and is one big reason why we traded the '02 in for the '05 with the safety canopy. Especially now that a child is riding along most of the time.

varmint

True. No single test tells everything.

 

However, the NHTSA site also reports a lower frontal score similar to the IIHS. The IIHS focuses more on structure, while the NHTSA is better for restraints and supplemental systems. When both tests agree, I think it's worth mention.

drive62

I know varmint knows more than me but I'm pretty sure that I've showed on more than one occasion that a similarly equipped Escape (natch it is the 4 banger) will cost more than the CR-V. And this doesn't include the OPTIONAL side airbags for the Escape.

 

I guess points are hard to get across here. This is it in a nutshell: You buy the Escape without options and you get a vehicle rated as "poor" in terms of crash testing. You buy the CR-V as is and you get a much safer vehicle.

 

I seem to recall many Ford advocates criticizing Honda because you have to add options to get improved safety from things like ABS (it's really not options it's moving up a trim line). Ford actually does make it an option and no one blinks an eye. Hmmm.

mikefm58

< Now, if I were a Ford basher would you ask the same about me trying to bring Ford down? >

 

Yes

ottawan

"I know varmint knows more than me but I'm pretty sure that I've showed on more than one occasion that a similarly equipped Escape (natch it is the 4 banger) will cost more than the CR-V..."

 

I don't know about US,

but my recent experience in Canada:

CR-V EX : 31,096 CAD

Escape XLT with safety package: 31,670 CAD

 

Payments for lease/financing are higher for CR-V

due %% and residual (in case of lease)

suvtime

Scape, you go on and on and on about how an Escape is cheaper to buy than a CR-V and yet when I price one out it doesn&#146;t support what you are saying. I went on Ford Canada&#146;s website to price out a 2005 Escape XLT V6. I didn&#146;t bother even bother with the 4 cylinder Escape because, in my opinion, its not even close to being as good as Honda&#146;s 4 cylinder. In order to get some basic features that I really wanted like heated mirrors and side curtain airbags I found that it was necessary to add several extra packages to the Escape. For example to get heated mirrors I had to add the Canadian Winter Package which cost $265 which is not bad except to get the winter package I also had to add the leather comfort group for another $995 even though I don&#146;t like leather seats. And I would have to order the safety package for another $ 960 to get the curtain airbags.

 

Base price Escape XLT AWD - $ 31,125

Canadian Winter Package and Leather Comfort group- $ 1,260

Safety Package - $ 960

A/C excise tax - $ 100

Destination & Delivery -$995

Total price before tax -$34,440

 

A CR-V EX with freight and PDI is $32,725, so by getting the Escape I would pay almost $2,000 more and the only extra thing I would get is leather seats that I don&#146;t like anyway. And I don&#146;t think you can get traction control or VSA on the Escape on any trim.

 

Now I have to admit I haven&#146;t called Ford yet to see if they are offering rebates like they seem to in the U.S. but it would seem that a Escape is going to cost more. I&#146;m also not sure what kind of deal you make with Honda but I&#146;m sure you wouldn&#146;t pay 100% of the MSRP.

baggs32

However, the NHTSA site also reports a lower frontal score similar to the IIHS. The IIHS focuses more on structure, while the NHTSA is better for restraints and supplemental systems. When both tests agree, I think it's worth mention.

 

You can look at it that way but the two tests didn't even come close to agreeing for the older models. Not much has changed since then and if anything the NHTSA results should have remained unchanged IMHO. So there is an argument there.

 

For some reason the Escape went from a 5 star driver/4 star passenger rating (front) to a 4/4 rating. I'm wondering if the new "Personal Saftey System" has something to do with that. i.e. the weight/position sensors in the front seats that tell the airbags how hard and when to deploy.

 

The PSS has been used by Ford for a while now and seems to be a good thing overall. But it isn't interacting with a human in these tests so who knows? I don't know quite enough about the details to make a true statement about it either. Anyone else?

mikefm58

to get the IIHS's highest rating. Both CRV and Escape got the institutes highest rating. Side air bags are standard on the CRV and are a $595 option on the Escape and it's cousins.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-12-10-side-crash-tests_x- .htm

scape2

about prices. I will once again give you deaership names. PLease read this, please call, please read on..

I have been asked by Edmunds to not give out dealership phone numbers. So if you want phone numbers please e-mial me at Sarduc1@aol.com and I will give them to you. I have proof! Will you not listen?? and call??

Courtesy Ford

05 Escape XLT 4x4 Premium

$20,475 -500 REBATE makes it $19,975

7 at this price

 

Gresham Honda

2005 CRV 4x4 Automatic

$22,588 6 at this price

 

Premier Mazda

2005 Mazda Tribute

Power windows, locks, Tilt, CD Stero, Air Conditioning, 16" alloy wheels, ABS, Remote keyless entry,

$14,677 2 at this price

 

Thomason Honda

2004 CRV EX 5spd $20,588 3 at this price

 

2004 Honda Element EX 4x4 automatic $19,988 3 at this price

 

This is just a few.. I am going to keep posting these as I see them over and over and over again until you see Honda CRV's cost more than Ford Escapes in my region.

bshel

first time buyers, do not waste your time and call if you live in that area. The prices scape refers to are advertised pricing, and as most people who have purchased a vehicle know, you are in the control seat when going into a dealership to buy a vehicle (or these days, when communicating with the internet sales team) and you determine what price you will pay. In addition, availability of vehicles changes often, and the advertisements are often not correct in that aspect also. Plus, this is incomplete information - note the Gresham Honda advertisement - lists a price for AT 4wd - no mention of LX, EX, or SE.

varmint

Here is the US, the CR-V EX compares well with the XLT so long as you add the safety package and also the moonroof package. There are a few things which the Escape has that are missing on the CR-V (like power seats), but the same is true of the CR-V (VSA and traction control). I'm sure if you were to compare the CR-V SE with the Escape Premium, you'd get varying results.

 

Up in Canada, the CR-V is equipped somewhat differently than it is in the states. The CR-V EX model is a bit more like what we call the SE. Canada's EX includes painted bumpers, a hard spare cover, leather seating, and a few other bits and pieces.

 

So take care to check the standard content and options. A single option (like a moonroof) can add $1,000 or more to the price.

 

And fer cryin' out loud, don't look at advertised prices. If you're going to take that route, I've got this bridge for sale...

varmint

For 2005, Ford/Mazda added gussets to the "frame" of the Escape/Tribute. I believe this was in response to the 01-04 model's less than stellar showing in the IIHS test. As the IIHS offset focuses on structure, this seems like a sensible move. And it worked. The Escape went from marginal to acceptable.

 

However, the NHTSA test uses a different methodology. The stresses on the crash dummy are more heavily weighted in their results. So the test is less about structure and more about safety systems like seat belts and air bags.

 

It is possible that the new structure is more resistant to deformation (hence the better score on the IIHS test). But a stiffer structure means the energy forces are not diffused by the frame and instead are passed directly to the occupants. That's why crush zones are so important and why it's hard to engineer ladder frame trucks with good occupant protection.

 

Anyway, that's one possibility. I'll take a look at the data on the NHTSA and IIHS sites when I have more time. They list the exact force measurements if you check the details on each vehicle.

baggs32

OK. Here we go.

 

NHTSA graphs for calculating % chance of injury based on test dummy data:

 

Head Injury Criterion (HIC)

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/ncap/graphics/Head.gif

 

Femur Load (Not used in the star ratings)

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/ncap/graphics/Femur.gif

 

Chest Deceleration

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/ncap/graphics/Chest.gif

 

I'll now focus on the driver scores for the 2004 and 2005 Escape because it is the only one that changed.

 

2004 - head = 417 chest = 42 femur = 1128/830

2005 - head = 544 chest = 42 femur = 1131/1554

 

A 5 star rating means there is up to a 10% chance one of the body areas above will be injured in their crash. A 4 star rating increases that chance up to 20%. Going by the graphs I don't see where any of the 2005 Escape scores rise above the 10% chance mark. It is hard to read in that scale though.

 

Now I'm not arguing with their scores as they know best and 4 stars is plenty good enough for me. But I just want to point out how difficult it is to figure out what is really going on with these ratings.

 

See, they try to sum it up with fancy gold stars and little colored squares with capital letters in them (IIHS codes) to make it simple for us. In a way it does. But they should force manufacturers to reveal a little more info when advertising crash scores. Especially when the difference between 4 stars and 5 stars can be a less than one percent chance of injury. That extra star won't look so good if you know that.

ottawan

painted bumpers, leather and hard spare cover are standard on CR-V EX with leather (EX-L) and cost $2200 more then EX...

varmint

I agree. Figuring out the raw data is very difficult. And you're right about there being the possibility of a very small spread between a low five star and high four star rating.

 

Based on comparisons with other vehicles, it appears that the head injury score is the one that cost the Escape a 5 start rating. The chest rating (42) is well within the range of other vehicles that have earned five stars. It appears that the cusp between 4 and 5 for head injuries is around 500.

 

BTW, femur loads are not counted in the star ratings.

 

For anyone seriously looking into this stuff, you should also take a look at crash tests from other countries (like Australia). The data there sometimes contradicts what is published by the US agencies. They use the same tests, but rank certain aspects of the data with different weight.

 

Also, they perform a few tests we don't see here. These can add to what you already know about any given vehicle. For example, they conduct vehicle vs pedestrian crashes. I recently read that European countries will be requiring at least 4 inches of crush space between the hood and engine for this reason. Of course, the concern of the American press was that we'll see a change in how vehicles are styled. :-P

varmint

Thanks. Yes, the leather is an option, not standard. But the point was that vehicles in other countries may have different comparison costs, because they are out-fitted with different equipment.

ottawan

And my point was that CR-V EX costs almost the same as comparable Escape XLT (in Canada),

and even more expensive if you are going to finance/lease it.

arizonajoe

Don't listen to scape2 on pricing. The only Escapes that cost less than a CR-V in the real world are 2WD models and 4-cylinder models. It looks like there might be a 4-cylinder version of the XLT now.

 

Since the V6 is really the Escape's selling point, and its 4-cylinder is weaker than the CR-V's, you might try comparing the street price of an Escape XLT V6 4WD with that of a CR-V EX 4WD (all EX's are 4WD).

 

The Ford rebates bring the price pretty close, but the CR-V should still be cheaper by a few hundred at least.

drive62

So how much money has Ford invested in it's US plants? And what percentage of their US sales are produced here?

 

It's a global economy.

 

http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/041221-4.htm

ottawan

Right, don't listen to scape,

listen to me :-)

 

I provided my real digits that I got when shopped one month ago.

I bought V6 XLT 4WD that costs (leasing) less then CR-V EX 4WD. "Cashe" price was a bit higher for XLT.

 

For me they are both fine vehicles. It's just a meter of personal preferences or/and convenience, like good dealership nearby.

 

But Edmunds editors think that Escape/Tribute pair is better (look for Editors Most Wanted last 5 years, it always first or second choice... and never behind CR-V)

scape2

Wrong, it says it is for an EX. Want the number? As I keep saying over and over and over and over e-mail me at Sarduci1@aol.com. CRV's cost more my friend and Honda does not negotiate....

scape2

What do you mean don't look at advertiesed prices??? I have walked into dealerships 5x in my car buying experience with add vehicles/vin#'s and walked out all 5x with that vehicle for the advertised price??

scape2

My My.... Trying to make this a "buy American" thing? I have said my whole philsophy is to "Buy American". Yet, when I say this most think I mean buy Ford, Dodge, Chevrolet. This is old thinking. Buy what is made here in the U.S. save a job, save your job in fact! When you make a purchase ask yourself how did my purchase strengthen the AMERICAN economy? Did I save a U.S. job??

scape2

CRV is not less expensive the Escape. You cannot use the Ford or Honda site to get a real world price. I will keep posting prices for Escapes and CRV's over and over every weekend with Dealership names. I will also wait for someone from the CRV camp to mail me and ask me for a phone number..... Someday...

Truth hurts, I understand....

mikefm58

<< walked out all 5x with that vehicle for the advertised price >>

 

You must live in an area where none of the dealerships advertise ridiculously low prices with all kinds of fine print to wiggle out of the adv. price. With all due respect scape2, I don't believe you.....

mikefm58

<< Buy what is made here in the U.S. save a job >>

 

Agree with you on this subject (can't believe I'm saying that).

mikefm58

<< You cannot use the Ford or Honda site to get a real world price. >>

 

Agree with you on this one.

 

You also cannot use dealer advertised price to get a real world price. Oh, but you say you have at least 5 times.

 

The best source I've found is Edmunds TMV and then go to the vehicle's "Prices paid and buying experience" forum to see what others have paid.

varmint

"And my point was that CR-V EX costs almost the same as comparable Escape XLT (in Canada)"

 

You may be correct. But without knowing what your idea of "comparable" means, the point is not worth much at face value.

 

For example, does the XLT in Canada include a moonroof, side airbags, stability control, traction control, a full-size alloy spare, etc.

 

Here in the US, the CR-V EX is a decent match for the Escape XLT with both the safety and moonroof packages (give or take a few items). But in Canada, the CR-V EX is not the same animal we have here. It has extra features that are worth a few extra loonies.

 

Your claim is not incorrect. It simply requires clarification.

scape2

If you don't believe me.. then why don't you let me prove it to you? Send me your e-mail address, I will give you dealership names, phone numbers and Vehicle identification numbers of the vehicles they advertise... Can't handle the truth??

stevedebi

Scape2,

I doubt that most people really care. They fall in love with one of the two vehicles and they buy it.

 

With the different sales prices caused by buyer experience (or lack thereof), and salesman agressiveness, saying that pricing will vary is a very big statement indeed.

mikefm58

Interesting comments from folks in the car biz over in "Real World Trade In Values" in regards to the new CRV & Escape hybrids. Some of the comments:

 

- Too new technology to predict long term reliability

 

- Way over priced compared to an all gas engine

 

- Go with the CRV as domestics still depreciate much faster than Honda/Toyota

 

- Fantastic lease deals available with the hybrid Escape.

drive62

Chances are when you buy a Honda in the US it was made by an American.

 

What percentage of Fords sold in the US are made in Mexico or Canada rather than the US?

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Honda has more autoworkers in the US than Ford.

drive62

It has been shown that the MSRP of an Escape will be higher than a similarly equipped CR-V.

 

People may or may not pay MSRP. But that's how the manufacturers price their vehicles. Take dealers out of the equation (imagine you bought direct from the manufacturer for MSRP) and the Escape is more expensive.

stever

Unless the continents have shifted, Canadians and Mexicans are Americans too.

 

I love that nit-pick :-)

 

Steve, Host

mikefm58

<< It has been shown that the MSRP of an Escape will be higher than a similarly equipped CR-V. >>

 

I don't disagree with that fact. But in regards to real world purchase prices, your argument holds about as much water as scape2 talking about newspaper ads.

stevedebi

mikefm58-

You shouldn't put your e-mail address in the post unless you want spammers to pick it up. You might ask the host to remove the address...

stever

Our forums are spidered by Google and the other search engines, and everything on the boards gets picked up. The Profile is a better place to park your email since they aren't spidered (mark your email public if you don't mind being contacted). Or perhaps you like getting lots and lots of mail? :-)

 

Steve, Host

baggs32

I wouldn't be surprised if Honda has more autoworkers in the US than Ford.

 

You're joking right?

 

How many plants does Honda have in the U.S.? About 5?

 

Ford has that many just to build F-150s and Explorers. One other F-150 plant is in Canada and I think that's their only Canadian plant. Might be one more. Only one in Mexico too. Some of the Focus line is made there now and will switch to the Fusion for MY06. The bulk of the Focus line is made in Wayne MI I believe.

 

So it's not like they just produce the vehicle out of the country (although I think the Fusion will be specific to Hermosillo as the ZX2 was). They actually produce extra vehicles in those "foreign" plants to supplement what is made here. Besides, Canada buys lots of U.S. made vehicles so it makes sense to give them a plant or two. Every one of the big 2.5 do it, not just Ford.

mikefm58

Doh.....I didn't think of that, thx for pointing it out.

 

Host: Can you remove the sentence with my email addy?

baggs32

http://automobilemag.com/reviews/suvs/0501_mini_suv_comparo/index- .html

 

I agree with most of it. The CR-V is a better value if that's what you're looking for. Hopefully I never have to again.

mikefm58

Good article, just wish they didn't use all the high end models, kinda negative on pricing them as compared to the next size up in SUVs.