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As far as the tinting goes the CR-V is available without tinting on the base model (LX). I'm not sure about the escape but it probably is.
I fail to see how that is any different from stealing sales.
When all the rest boils off you're still left with fewer CR-V sales because of competition on the same lot. People shopping for a small SUV only had a few choices three years ago. Now just about every manufacturer has something competing with another on their lots.
I see the Freestyle eating into both Escape and Explorer sales due to it's middle-of-the-road pricing.
Regardless of what I think we're all winners because of the "new" competition. If you read the article I posted Mr. Ford speaks to how the market has fragmented over the years and, the way I see it, this is the biggest reason why the consumer wins. Fragmenting led to the CR-V and Element being on the same lot. Same goes for the Avalon and Camry or the Fusion and Five Hundred. The days of the mega-sellers are gone in most vehicle classes and that's not such a bad thing if you ask me.
I believe this "mini-ute" segment will someday outsell the larger SUV's. I think people are re-thinking their priorities. Granted, you cannot tow a large boat or camper with these little utes but for small trailers and watercraft they work great.
Just 5 years ago the CRV had little to no competition. Look at it now, Escape/Tribute, Equinox, Liberty, Mariner, Tucson, Sante Fe, Vue... Choice is nice...
Well, yes, that's true enough. Cramping sales growth and stealing sales are one in the same. I just meant to point out that the Element hasn't caused a decrease in CR-V sales since it was introduced.
As it was used above, the term "cannibalizing" typically implies that one vehicle steals sales from another without adding a significant number of sales to the bottom line. That does not appear to be the case with the CR-V and Element.
If fact you could almost say that the RAV-4 and CR-V are more responsible for Explorer sales being cannibalized than the Escape is. With out those two the Escape might not even exist today.
Desrosiers Automotive Consultants announced the top ten best-selling cars and light trucks in Canada up until the end of October, the month for which the latest figures are available.
....
The top ten light trucks are:
1. Ford F-Series pickup
2. Dodge Caravan/Grand Caravan
3. GMC Sierra pickup
4. Dodge Ram pickup
5. Chevrolet Silverado pickup
6. Pontiac Montana minivan
7. Chevrolet Venture minivan
8. Ford Freestar minivan
9. Ford Escape SUV
10. Toyota Sienna minivan
Hmm, people must be happy with these manufacturers and their products that they have been buying them.
I don't see Honda and Toyota there...
"...we decided if you're going to build the brand long term, you have to start by rebuilding residual values. Because I'm in this for the long haul, I was willing to take the short-term pain to start to put the fundamentals in place, i.e., rebuilding residuals, which for us had fallen off dramatically. There are really two ways to do that. One is to limit our sales to the daily rental fleets. Two is not match dollar for dollar on the facing competition across the board."
This relates to some discussions on this list regarding Ford's big rebates on the Escape and its effect on residuals. When Mr. Ford speaks of "not match(ing) dollar for dollar", he is speaking of not matching the rebates of GM and Chrysler.
Or they like rebates.
A year or two back, the CR-V was the second best selling ute in Canada (only the Explorer sold more units). Now, neither make that list.
"so minivans are now considered light trucks."
They always have been.
"When Mr. Ford speaks of "not match(ing) dollar for dollar", he is speaking of not matching the rebates of GM and Chrysler."
That would be a big step for Ford.
Here's a look at the incentives for November. Ford will lose a lot of marketshare reducing incentives and they still can't cut production back far enough. The dealerships will probably suffer first.
And here is a Nissan exec's forecast for how continuous incentives will impact the market.
Have you ever once thought maybe, just maybe, Ford produces twice as many units of the Escape than Honda produces of the CR-V? And have you considered that people associate Ford with trucks, and Honda with automobiles and motorcycles, giving an edge in recognition? For some reason, many people associate SUVs with trucks.
And that these two factors, combined with rebates, mean many people will consider the Ford over the Honda?
"Ford produces twice as many units of the Escape than Honda produces of the CR-V?"
Are you trying to say Escape is in that list because Ford's production of Escape is twice of Honda's production of CRV?
Who is stopping Honda to manufacture as many as Ford. I'll tell you who does. Itself.
Honda knows how many units can sell, and it manufactures that many units, Ford knows how many unit can sell and it manufactures that many units, simple.
Your so reliable CRV is not in the list...
Wife drives the 05 Escape V6 XLT, and didn't see any reason to have two V6 engines on the driveway.
Actually we're starting to see this now with the new "Year of the Car" models. The Five Hundred, Freestyle, and Mustang to be more specific. All three are priced to sell and undercut the competitions prices while offering the same as or better content (like AWD) and quality. Now all they need to do is get that 3.5L V6 ready for production and dump it in the latter two so they can be even more competitive.
This is kind of unusual for Ford to do this because recently they have been known to raise the sticker prices and offer large rebates. However, they aren't the only offenders, they just followed the leader. But the results of this new (to them anyway) pricing format are "so far so good". Residuals are higher, incentives are lower, and customers are happier.
The Japanese have been doing this since the dawn of time it seems and I'm glad to see that Bill Ford has the guts to give it a try too. We'll have to wait and see how it pans out in the domestic market though. Things are a lot different for the big 2.5 when you look at production costs, employee wages/benefits, etc., and this format may not support it because sales and market share will probably get worse before they get better again.
Well, at least for now they will continue production of the Taurus as a fleet only vehicle after next year (I think). They also build most other models in fleet trim which are available to the general public but mostly go to, well, fleets.
I'm thinking they might limit sales and CHOICES to non-rental fleets like governments, corporations, etc. Right now I think they build just about every model in fleet trim. Maybe they are planning on offering just a handful in that trim in the future. Then again, maybe not.
"NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Honda is again the best brand for retaining value for new cars and trucks, while U.S. brands were shut out of the top spots, according to a firm that tracks vehicle value for the industry.
"Automotive Lease Guide. a privately held company that has been forecasting automotive residual values for more than 35 years, gave the top spot to Honda (Research) for the second straight year, as the Odyssey won the award for best retained value in the minivan segment and its CR-V won in the compact sport/utility vehicle segment."
http://money.cnn.com/2004/12/08/pf/autos/residual_value/index.htm- ?cnn=yes
How exactly do you infer that "people are learning they don't have to buy a vehicle with a silver "H"?
They are buying Honda vehicles to the point that Honda's sales are increasing. They aren't bying Fords to the point that Ford's sales are decreasing. Geesh it aint rocket science.
Honda knows how many units can sell, and it manufactures that many units, Ford knows how many unit can sell and it manufactures that many units, simple."
I don't think it is that simple. The CR-V is sold in many countries, and is manufactured overseas. I suspect the plants are producing about all they can to meet the demand. I have read that Honda is considering producing the CR-V here in America, which might up production.
However, I take your point. The CR-V appeals to a different audience, as with most Hondas. The engineering philosophy is completely different from Ford.
Steve, Host
I'm certain lots of people prefer the Escape to the CR-V. But when you're talking about sales volume, "preference" can be the result of many factors. One of those factors is the bribe money put on the hood by the manufacturer.
Put another way...
Have you ever noticed that the 2002 CR-V out-sold the Escape (2002 model year), until Ford started using large incentives?
"See, the whole thing is people are learning they don't have to buy a vehicle with a silver "H" on the hood and pay the high price in order to get a reliable well built vehicle."
People other than Canadians, I guess. Honda is now part of the Canadian Big 3. Ford is not.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041207.wxrho- - - ndaford07/BNStory/Business/
True enough. Though Ford still hasn't sold as many units as they set out to sell. Ford's target number for the Escape was 200,000 units per year. Mazda had a more modest 35,000 units in mind. Mazda has met their estimate with the Tribute, the Escape has not.
And the subject is Escape vs CR-V,
not Honda vs Ford
We had about the same quotes for Escape and CR-V,
but chose Escape, as it felt more tight and stable on the road.
The main difference was leather heated seats on Escape vs traction/stability control on CR-V.
And why, exactly, is that so important?
Maybe it shows the buyers preference for $2,000 cash-back incentives.
Maybe it shows how effective having a four to one advantage in dealerships can be.
Maybe it shows how much having two small SUVs (CR-V & Element) on one lot can limit sales.
Maybe it shows how many sales Ford makes to their own rental companies.
MacDonalds sells more burgers than any other restaurant in the US. Is that because they sell better beef than any of the five star restaurants in the nation? There's a whole lot of factors that go into sales figures. Buyer "preference" is only one of them.
I didn't say that is "so important".
It's mere fact.
* Delaership issue is Honda's problem, don't care less...
*Again, this is not Ford's concern or issue...
*You sound like, they sell these cars to rental fleets and 1 year later, rental fleets dump them to space...Consumers buy them at the end of first year, it is like deferred sales...
Comparing beef sales and affecting factors to car sales and affecting factors?????
Whatever excuse you find for your reliables CRV, Escape stays as top dog...
In addition to what snowman pointed out above, we have to remember the Jeep Liberty. It was the original small SUV to unseat the CR-V as the sales king and did so with low or no incentives on it. IIRC somewhere in the 3rd or 4th quarter of 2002 is when the Escape overtook both of them for the lead and it was done with low incentives. $500 I believe.
The Liberty now has a $4000 incentive on it ($1500 for the '05) so why isn't it the sales leader right now?
I always point out that CR and JD Power, etc. don't offer facts and therefore offer us no proof of anything. The real fact is, they don't. But sales figures are facts and do offer proof. Whether it be proof of vehicle popularity, proof of buyer reaction to incentives, etc. it's still proof no matter how much one twists it.
One more thing. Despite the fact the Escape has higher incentives than the CR-V (As far as we know anyway since Honda does hide those in the form of dealer cash. Not a bad thing really and pretty smart too.) a CR-V will still most likely cost less OTD than a comparably equipped Escape in most areas of the country. Agreed?
So why then would anyone buy an Escape given that the CR-V is supposed to offer superior quality, reliability, and resale? But yet the higher priced, average reliability, fast depreciating Escape continues to outsell the CR-V by a wide margin. Baffling!
Questions?
My daughter started basketball for her school. While at the game I was having a conversation with a guy. I found out he owns his own business. In this business he has cars. He used to buy Honda Civics because of their reliability record. In 02 he decided to purchase 3 Ford Focus instead. They were "less expensive". These cars are all approaching 100K or more he says and they have been "great little vehicles". He won't buy Civics anylonger, no need for the extra expense! LOL!@ Yet another person who has figured out you don't have to have a silver "H" to have reliable good quality transportation...
Oh, what? Sales from years prior to the Escape don't count?
Well... that's not Honda's problem, now is it...
Sounds absurd, doesn't it? Now go back and read your own post.
As for the effectiveness of incentives, take a look at any article discussing the topic. Any time one of the Big 3 decreases their incentives, sales for the brand drop. When they added incentives to the Escape, sales increased.
Sure, incentives alone are not enough to ensure strong sales, but they do bolster sales. If they didn't, manufacturers wouldn't offer them. Not rocket science.
"But sales figures are facts and do offer proof. Whether it be proof of vehicle popularity, proof of buyer reaction to incentives, etc. it's still proof no matter how much one twists it."
So it's proof of something, but we have no idea what it's proving? Well, we know there are too many loopholes to use them in a popularity contest.
"CR-V will still most likely cost less OTD than a comparably equipped Escape in most areas of the country. Agreed?"
Only if by "comparably equipped" you mean 4 cyl vs 4 cyl. And I wouldn't let Scape see you write that. He has "proof" in the form of sales ads showing that the Escape is cheaper.
In my area, TMV for a V6 XLT with safety and moonroof packages comes to about $500 less than a CR-V EX. I checked several zip codes from around the country and the CR-V matches the Escape in some, but I didn't any one where it was cheaper.
"So why then would anyone buy an Escape given that the CR-V is supposed to offer superior quality, reliability, and resale?"
I could turn that around and ask you why a japanese import with a little four cylinder engine is selling so many units here in the back yard of the "Big 3"? I mean, if the Escape is so impressive, why is it that a little company like Honda can sell so many small SUVs without offering incentives, without a huge dealer network, and without selling to fleets?
It's not like the Escape has nothing going for it. The most obvious advantage would be towing capacity and, yes, some people need that. I'm not trying to show that the Escape is not popular at all. Clearly, it is. I'm just illustrating that using sales figures alone is not a good method for judging a popularity contest. Sales are impacted by many more factors than just popularity.
Ford and Escape owners don't care how many units of CRV were sold since 96. Escape is the best selling small SUV I believe since 2002 (I may be wrong, may be it is 2003). It is a big success that 2 years old product captures the market like that
If you say, Honda has fewer dealers than Ford therefore Honda could not sell as many as Escapes; dude, this is Honda's issue... If your product is so good and priced correctly people will buy it regardless of how many dealers you have and where those dealers located. I have 3 Honda dealers in my 10 miles radius, I still buy Escape
If Honda has two products in the same segment and they cut each others sales and because of this CRV can’t compete with Escape then may be Honda needs help in sales and production strategies
I just look at the number at the end of every year. And Escape looks top dog.
Because when we say Escape is leader, we only look at yearly numbers...
Hmmm, didn't know that. However, I attribute a lot of the Liberty's initial sales to owners trading in their not-so-grand Cherokees for one.
Any time one of the Big 3 decreases their incentives, sales for the brand drop. When they added incentives to the Escape, sales increased.
No argument there but the Escape and CR-V are still very similarly priced even after the incentives and the Escape still sells more.
Only if by "comparably equipped" you mean 4 cyl vs 4 cyl.
No. I'm talking top engine to top engine.
I did the TMVs too for the '05 models and the CR-V is about $350 more expensive than a comparably equipped Escape. I was going by the difference I saw in the '04 models a few months ago and didn't realize the CR-V now costs so much more.
I mean, if the Escape is so impressive, why is it that a little company like Honda can sell so many small SUVs without offering incentives, without a huge dealer network, and without selling to fleets?
Well some people do read those magazines you know.
When we bought our '02 Escape I believe the CR-V was slightly ahead of it in sales. We bought it in January of '02 and no incentives were available at that time.
I mention that because incentives do account for something in this game but not for everything. You have to remember the Escape just came off a bad year filled with recalls and poor reviews. We "took a chance" on our '02 because it was the one we liked best. It payed off in the end.
So it's proof of something, but we have no idea what it's proving?
Sure we do. It proves several things not just one. I think I could have worded that better.
Yearly sales figures don't mean one vehicle is better than the other. Chrylser's mini-van is the best seller in it's class, but I wouldn't be caught dead in a Chrysler product, owned several long ago and they all fell apart. For some people predicted reliability and expected resale are not high on their list when selecting a vehicle.
Resale value.. You pay more for you Honda CRV than a Ford Escape. I would hope your resale value is better. In this weekends paper I thought I was going to be proven wrong. A Honda dealership offered 04 CRV-EX for $20,500.. catch.. it was a 5spd, not an automatic. I called and was told "the automatics are about $1500 more"...
Yes, I can prove over and over the Escape is less expensive than a CRV. Need more proof? I will list dealerships and VIN#'s until my fingers turn blue..
And when did I dismiss this? How could I dismiss it when I've never read the MSN site you mentioned. I don't recall your post, but I would read it if you'll repost it. That would be a first though. For every site that favors a Ford, there are 10 that favor a Honda.
<< In this weekend's paper I thought I was going to be proven wrong. >>
Oh that's right, I should believe dealer's newspaper ads? I know that they're all so honest, right? Sorry scape, wrong approach.
Is it your life mission to take down Honda?
I found the site and looked at 2001, 2002 Escape & CRV and according to that site, the 2001 Escape has a better reliability history but the 2002 CRV is better for that year. Doesn't make sense since 2001 was the first year of the Escape and 2002 was the first year of the new CRV design.
05 Honda CRV(SE):
Driving impressions:
-Drove and handled well. Was surprised at how much power the 4cyl had. The CRV gets between 22-27mpg which is pretty decent for a car this size and weight. But, I did feel the engine was louder and seemed to work much harder than the V6 Tribute. I also noticed that while driving in the 55-60mph range, the engine was somewhat lacking with regards to passing power (driving on the freeway system in DC, this was a must!).
-Safety: Standard features on the CRV SE included front and side airbags, ABS, AWD, traction and stability control. Very safe. Good job Honda making so many of these features standard.
-Interior: Liked the interior, the plastic was of a better grade than Mazda. But, did not like the placement of the shifter, and I thought Mazda's leather was better (lotta complaints about the wear of Honda leather in the Pilot and also the Accord on other boards). Liked the storage compartments and thought the interior was well thought out. But, I thought the Mazda's seats were more comfortable. Very spacious backseat and rear storage area (advantage over the Tribute). Loved the audio controls on the steering wheel, and was bumnmed that the Escape/Tribute did not offer this feature (have it in my 02 Altima SE and love it!). But, the radio in the Mazda (has a subwoofer) was better.
Exterior:
I think the Honda's exterior is very practical and pleaseing to the eye, but the Tribute's just looked a little more aggressive and sporty to me. Again, this is obvioulsy my opinion, but my wife agreed as well. Another thing that I hated was the rear mounted spare tire (Mazda's spare is under the vehicle). I just do not like the look, and have watched many a Dateline special which has proven that by mounting the spare this way, it causes excessive damage/repair costs during low impact collisions.
05 Mazda Tribute:
Driving impressions: I personally noticed a difference with the V6 Tribby vs. the 4cyl for the CRV. Especially with regards to the additional torque and passing power. I know that most magazines state that the Escape and CRV are almost equal with 0-60 times, but Mazda has tuned and geared the Tribute to be a little quicker and I noticed a slight advantage to the Mazda. I definitely felt the Mazda had better passing power. I also thought both vehicles handled very well and noticed a slight advantage to the Mazda.
Safety: My Tribute comes with AWD, ABS, front and side curtain airbags, and a new cage for rollover protection. Both vehicles have a wide stance for a small SUV, and that is a plus for rollover protection
Warranty: Honda 3yr/36K. Mazda 4yr/50K. Advantage Tribute.
Overall:
Again, I want to stress that I thought both vehicles had advantages over one another, but in the end I felt the Mazda was the right car for me. It drove and looked a little sportier that the Honda, had a better warranty, and was between 4-5K cheaper than the CRV. I realize that the CRV will have more resale value, but do not think that it will make up 5K worth. And even more important, the dealer experience at Honda was not a good one (Landmark Honda in Alexandria VA). This is the third time I have been there in the last three years, and cannot believe how arrogant these guys are (same experiecnce at two other local Honda dealers. Only Browns Honda seemed to treat me like a customer). Major turnoff.. I was ready to pay about 2/3 of the car off in cash up front, and that seemed to annoy them (probably wanted to rip me off at financing). They had a markup over MSRP of the car (salesman had the arrogance to tell me that it (CRV) was a new model and was popular and they could get away with the markup). When I started talking price, they said they would not budge.. I walked away laughing (of course they have called me back twice now, ready to deal).. Completely differnt experience with Mazda. No pressure. I asked for invoce minus all the incentives (and blue book trade in value for my trade-in and got it)! The staff was corteous, and WANTED my business. Honda could have cared less, and was trying to take me for evey dollar they could. Needless to say, this made my selection much easier, and I also was happy about having a much better warranty.
Again, both the Escape/Tribute and the CRV have advantages over each other, but in the end I truly think the Escape/Tribute gives you more bang for your $$$.
My .02 cents... (And then some)..