Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

qbrozen

dino001 said:

qbrozen said:

Current 3-series sedan is 182". 5-series is 194. Kia is 190. So definitely closer to the 5 than the 3.

These are full lengths. More important would be wheel base and cabin space/legroom. Does anybody have those handy?

Having a bit of trouble with passenger volumes of the BMWs, but here is what I was able to dig up. Interestingly, the 3'er has more front leg room than the 5'er. Stinger trumps both. Rear leg room is within a tenth of an inch between the 5'er and Stinger.

Stinger:
Length 190.2
Width 73.6
Height 55.1
Wheelbase 114.4
Passenger capacity 93.8 cu ft
Leg room front/rear 42.6/36.4

5’er:
Length 194.6
Width 73.5
Height 58.2
Wheelbase 117.1
Passenger capacity ?
Leg room front/rear 41.4/36.5

3’er:
Length 182.5
Width 71.3
Height 56.3
Wheelbase 110.6
Passenger capacity ?
Leg room front/rear 42.0/35.1

roadburner

They are all a bit too big and heavy for my tastes, although I did enjoy a 440i GC M Sport we had in our loaner fleet. RWD and the M Performance Power and Sound kit made it a lot of fun despite being a bit porky...

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

dino001 said:

circlew said:

I looked at a white StingerGT2 2 weeks ago. I sat it in and it had far more room than my Q50S. I mentioned that it looked like a 5'er interior to the sales person. The exterior is far more upscale that is more up to date than a 3'er, IMHO.

So the Stinger looks like a legitimate effort from Kia. Let’s hope people will buy it, so it stays in the market. If it is 5-series size, then $50k+ sticker for fully loaded fast supercharged V6 may be ok, considering Kia always throws in decent cash incentives. Low end 2 liter starts 35k, so that’s much more pallatable and separated in price from lux and comparable to four cyl turbos from other brands, too. One knock against is the mpg on GT, when you compare it with, say BMW’s 3.0 six turbo. It souns a bit like the previous gen without much fuel asavinlg tech. It may be a positive for some.

Sounds like the 2 liter might be the better bang for the buck.

I've heard too many happy BMW owners over too many years and too many car models praise the in-line 6 engines, that to get a BMW without one would be sacrilegious to me.

dino001

andres3 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

dino001 said:

circlew said:

I looked at a white StingerGT2 2 weeks ago. I sat it in and it had far more room than my Q50S. I mentioned that it looked like a 5'er interior to the sales person. The exterior is far more upscale that is more up to date than a 3'er, IMHO.

So the Stinger looks like a legitimate effort from Kia. Let’s hope people will buy it, so it stays in the market. If it is 5-series size, then $50k+ sticker for fully loaded fast supercharged V6 may be ok, considering Kia always throws in decent cash incentives. Low end 2 liter starts 35k, so that’s much more pallatable and separated in price from lux and comparable to four cyl turbos from other brands, too. One knock against is the mpg on GT, when you compare it with, say BMW’s 3.0 six turbo. It souns a bit like the previous gen without much fuel asavinlg tech. It may be a positive for some.

Sounds like the 2 liter might be the better bang for the buck.

I've heard too many happy BMW owners over too many years and too many car models praise the in-line 6 engines, that to get a BMW without one would be sacrilegious to me.

I was one, yet I have a four-cylinder now and think it's quite alright.

Mr_Shiftright

The BMW is a car, not a church (although some might contest that) There is certainly a trend to turbo-4s all across the board in the auto biz right now.

kyfdx

dino001 said:

andres3 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

dino001 said:

circlew said:

I looked at a white StingerGT2 2 weeks ago. I sat it in and it had far more room than my Q50S. I mentioned that it looked like a 5'er interior to the sales person. The exterior is far more upscale that is more up to date than a 3'er, IMHO.

So the Stinger looks like a legitimate effort from Kia. Let’s hope people will buy it, so it stays in the market. If it is 5-series size, then $50k+ sticker for fully loaded fast supercharged V6 may be ok, considering Kia always throws in decent cash incentives. Low end 2 liter starts 35k, so that’s much more pallatable and separated in price from lux and comparable to four cyl turbos from other brands, too. One knock against is the mpg on GT, when you compare it with, say BMW’s 3.0 six turbo. It souns a bit like the previous gen without much fuel asavinlg tech. It may be a positive for some.

Sounds like the 2 liter might be the better bang for the buck.

I've heard too many happy BMW owners over too many years and too many car models praise the in-line 6 engines, that to get a BMW without one would be sacrilegious to me.

I was one, yet I have a four-cylinder now and think it's quite alright.

Ditto.. Of course, the last n/a 6 cylinder helped push me that way. It was uninspiring.

dino001

kyfdx said:

dino001 said:

andres3 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

dino001 said:

circlew said:

I looked at a white StingerGT2 2 weeks ago. I sat it in and it had far more room than my Q50S. I mentioned that it looked like a 5'er interior to the sales person. The exterior is far more upscale that is more up to date than a 3'er, IMHO.

So the Stinger looks like a legitimate effort from Kia. Let’s hope people will buy it, so it stays in the market. If it is 5-series size, then $50k+ sticker for fully loaded fast supercharged V6 may be ok, considering Kia always throws in decent cash incentives. Low end 2 liter starts 35k, so that’s much more pallatable and separated in price from lux and comparable to four cyl turbos from other brands, too. One knock against is the mpg on GT, when you compare it with, say BMW’s 3.0 six turbo. It souns a bit like the previous gen without much fuel asavinlg tech. It may be a positive for some.

Sounds like the 2 liter might be the better bang for the buck.

I've heard too many happy BMW owners over too many years and too many car models praise the in-line 6 engines, that to get a BMW without one would be sacrilegious to me.

I was one, yet I have a four-cylinder now and think it's quite alright.

Ditto.. Of course, the last n/a 6 cylinder helped push me that way. It was uninspiring.

The N/A straight six had a great sound. Beautiful, I loved it. But in terms of performance and fuel economy, it was a slightly improved product of 1990s. My only concern with my current four turbo is its long term durability. Its first iteration was introduced in 2012 models, so the jury is still out on true long-term numbers. Mid-term seems OK, as there are no massive failures at 100k+ threshold being reported so far. We had a very long track record with the N/A straight six. Those four cylinders are still building the record. One positive, it seems the owners, dealers and garages got the memo regarding proper oil grades this time, unlike in 80s, when turbos were used first time the stakeholders had no idea how to properly maintain those engines. Cheap mineral oil was the king back then, it would sometimes kill the scroller bearings in 60k miles from coking, even if changed at 3k miles, as the oil particles were just too large for fast scrollers.

flightnurse

Dino the N20/26 engine had a timing chain issue that BMW has FINALLY recognized and have increased the factory warranty, other than that the N series engine seems to be pretty built proof. The new B series engines are too new but would think they are just as built proof. The mileage for the F3X series cars have exceeded the EPA #, on a trip to Santa Fe, I averaged 37, Rick got 36 going to Austin in his GT.

flightnurse

Comparison test of an Audi A4, BMW 430 GC xDrive and Kia Stinger AWD

https://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2018-audi-a5-sportback-vs-bmw-430i-gran-coupe-kia-stinger-comparison-test

Mr_Shiftright

Ha! I was just going to post that. Kia takes on the big boys. The Stinger isn't perfect but look at the price differential!

One wonders how it will all pan out, though, when we look at the 3 year resale for each of these?

stickguy

I read that article in the magazine. Seems like BMW took the hit there. Audi romped.

would be interesting to see the same test, using the big motor models instead.

andres3

stickguy said:

I read that article in the magazine. Seems like BMW took the hit there. Audi romped.

would be interesting to see the same test, using the big motor models instead.

They really did like the A5 Sportback. What amazes me, is the A4 is significantly lighter than the A5 Sportback, and is essentially the same car. The sportback might be tuned a bit more aggressively suspension-wise though than the "family" sedan.

flightnurse

I posted this over on Bimmerfest and of course, many people are bitching that the 430i xDrive didn't have the "right" suspension. Of course, not too sure what they mean by that since you can't get xDrive with the 704 suspensions. But the price is a whopping 14K difference, is Audi worth it?

andres3

flightnurse said:

I posted this over on Bimmerfest and of course, many people are bitching that the 430i xDrive didn't have the "right" suspension. Of course, not too sure what they mean by that since you can't get xDrive with the 704 suspensions. But the price is a whopping 14K difference, is Audi worth it?

Based on Car & Driver's review and my bias, I'd say so.

Also, you don't get a free loaner car at a Kia dealership

andres3

flightnurse said:

I posted this over on Bimmerfest and of course, many people are bitching that the 430i xDrive didn't have the "right" suspension. Of course, not too sure what they mean by that since you can't get xDrive with the 704 suspensions. But the price is a whopping 14K difference, is Audi worth it?

@flightnurse On Chronic Car Buyers I posted Car & Driver's sportback/coupe S5 comparison review which is also interesting, since these 4-door coupes are really just sleeker sedans.

dino001

Not sure if 430ix standard suspension is same as my one in my RWD 430i (I have a std., not M-sport, not adaptive M-sport). Anyway, I don't care what C&D says about 430 ix GC steering and suspension. It's good enough for me. Perhaps I'm getting older. On my next round of vehicles I may be out of ELLPS altogether and into stupid SUVs. Ugh. Or maybe one more - if so, both A5 SB and Stinger will be on the list.

flightnurse

dino001 said:

Not sure if 430ix standard suspension is same as my one in my RWD 430i (I have a std., not M-sport, not adaptive M-sport). Anyway, I don't care what C&D says about 430 ix GC steering and suspension. It's good enough for me. Perhaps I'm getting older. On my next round of vehicles I may be out of ELLPS altogether and into stupid SUVs. Ugh. Or maybe one more - if so, both A5 SB and Stinger will be on the list.

I'm with you, my 330 suspension is base, but it has the right amount of firmness without being harsh. I like Stinger, I don't care if it doesn't have the best suspension I have no plans on tracking my cars again. But a 14K difference is a huge difference.

flightnurse

andres3 said:

@flightnurse On Chronic Car Buyers I posted Car & Driver's sportback/coupe S5 comparison review which is also interesting, since these 4-door coupes are really just sleeker sedans.

MB been doing that now for 15 yrs with the CLS, it's an E class with a sleek body and they charge more for it.

coldinohio

kia stinger gt AWD-- this it top of line v6
just test drove today; nice engine note; very responsive in "normal" driver setting i.e not sport
nice steering wheel-- flat bottomed
tech is good; not sure HUD is needed as very washed out on a sunny day but apparently that is adjustabale
really nice seats with nice side bolsters
very audi-like/light
dealer had +$3500 market adjustment---lol
kia does not have any 'concierge' services-- so as mentioned above, not sure how they will do in the >$45-$50k market

dino001

flightnurse said:

dino001 said:

Not sure if 430ix standard suspension is same as my one in my RWD 430i (I have a std., not M-sport, not adaptive M-sport). Anyway, I don't care what C&D says about 430 ix GC steering and suspension. It's good enough for me. Perhaps I'm getting older. On my next round of vehicles I may be out of ELLPS altogether and into stupid SUVs. Ugh. Or maybe one more - if so, both A5 SB and Stinger will be on the list.

I'm with you, my 330 suspension is base, but it has the right amount of firmness without being harsh. I like Stinger, I don't care if it doesn't have the best suspension I have no plans on tracking my cars again. But a 14K difference is a huge difference.

Now it's about the dealer - if I have to put up with some sleazball salesman who is used to selling stuff to people with 550 FICO and won't change his tune, I may be deterred by him. Unfortunately my recent experiences at establishments selling "mainstream" cars have not been overly positive. To be blunt, every time I went to a place like that, I felt like needing a long hot shower. Hopefully I'll get lucky next time.

roadburner

dino001 said:

Now it's about the dealer - if I have to put up with some sleazball salesman who is used to selling stuff to people with 550 FICO and won't change his tune, I may be deterred by him. Unfortunately my recent experiences at establishments selling "mainstream" cars have not been overly positive. To be blunt, every time I went to a place like that, I felt like needing a long hot shower. Hopefully I'll get lucky next time.

That's my worry as well, not to mention potential warranty hassles if I took a Stinger to an HPDE. At least you can get it in RWD. Having said all that, my usual strategy of buying a 2-3 year old CPO works great for me, the only downside being the ability to tailor a car to my exact specs- for example if I had ordered my F22 it would have had a red interior, PDC, and no hole in the roof- but the $15,000 savings compensates for the "imperfections."

flightnurse

dino001 said:

Now it's about the dealer - if I have to put up with some sleazball salesman who is used to selling stuff to people with 550 FICO and won't change his tune, I may be deterred by him. Unfortunately my recent experiences at establishments selling "mainstream" cars have not been overly positive. To be blunt, every time I went to a place like that, I felt like needing a long hot shower. Hopefully I'll get lucky next time.

I had wondered the same thing when Nissan started selling the GT-R here. Here is a dealership whose average sales price is about $25K, now sell a 90K car. If you don't want a KIA, then get a Genesis G70 with a manual. But I don't have a problem walking into Kia dealership to get my car serviced, and if it does have to get service I'm not too worried. I highly doubt they will screw things up, yeah, I won't get the free loaner have a nice lounge to sit in, but I saved 14K...

qbrozen

In a world of $60k pick-em-up trucks, I don't see how folks can be so snobbish about a $50k car, frankly.

Mr_Shiftright

Maybe Kia could cash in on the "reverse status" thing----"EVERYONE has a BMW and Audi, but I have no need for such ostentatious displays". Tricky to pull that off, but it has been done.

flightnurse

qbrozen said:

In a world of $60k pick-em-up trucks, I don't see how folks can be so snobbish about a $50k car, frankly.

was that how much you spent on your truck?

qbrozen

Mine had a sticker dangerously close to $50k and I don't even have leather!

flightnurse

qbrozen said:

Mine had a sticker dangerously close to $50k and I don't even have leather!

LOL, and people complain that a base 320i doesn't have power seats.

andres3

flightnurse said:

dino001 said:

Now it's about the dealer - if I have to put up with some sleazball salesman who is used to selling stuff to people with 550 FICO and won't change his tune, I may be deterred by him. Unfortunately my recent experiences at establishments selling "mainstream" cars have not been overly positive. To be blunt, every time I went to a place like that, I felt like needing a long hot shower. Hopefully I'll get lucky next time.

I had wondered the same thing when Nissan started selling the GT-R here. Here is a dealership whose average sales price is about $25K, now sell a 90K car. If you don't want a KIA, then get a Genesis G70 with a manual. But I don't have a problem walking into Kia dealership to get my car serviced, and if it does have to get service I'm not too worried. I highly doubt they will screw things up, yeah, I won't get the free loaner have a nice lounge to sit in, but I saved 14K...

Yes, but in order to really save 14K you'd have to have a car with similar specs and performance, now, you could argue your getting somewhere around 9/10th's for 8/10th's cost. As with everything, there is a law of diminishing returns.

andres3

qbrozen said:

In a world of $60k pick-em-up trucks, I don't see how folks can be so snobbish about a $50k car, frankly.

After buying the S4, I didn't feel so bad about spending so much money once I saw how much people were spending on average trucks and SUV's.

flightnurse

andres3 said:

Yes, but in order to really save 14K you'd have to have a car with similar specs and performance, now, you could argue your getting somewhere around 9/10th's for 8/10th's cost. As with everything, there is a law of diminishing returns.

So I went and built a Stinger 2.0 RWD and a BMW 330i, I believe they are as close as you can get, and there is a 7K difference. Now if you pick 4 series then it's close to 9K difference. When Genesis brings the G70 you will be able to get it with a 6 spd manual and the difference wont be that great but I'm sure the BMW will be more.

stickguy

should be the GT version though to get the hatch. Or was that what you meant?

Mr_Shiftright

I just priced out a Ford F-150 Platinum, heavy on options, and I'm already up to $72,900. Sure does have everything, though.

flightnurse

stickguy said:

should be the GT version though to get the hatch. Or was that what you meant?

Nope I built a 330i sedan. I looked at what the article compared, I think that is the only fair way to go about it, some people on Bimmerfest think the Stinger should be compared to the 5 series because it's close in wheelbase. But if Kia talks about the 3 series then compare it to the 3 series.

qbrozen

I also, as I have stated before, think the Stinger is closer to the 5-series. No idea why Kia says anything about the 3'er, unless it is only because that is the standard all the mags use.

flightnurse

qbrozen said:

I also, as I have stated before, think the Stinger is closer to the 5-series. No idea why Kia says anything about the 3'er, unless it is only because that is the standard all the mags use.

Why do you think it needs to go against a 5 series? Size? I think Kia wants the 3 series because of the price.

qbrozen

Not sure where we made the comparison before, but yes, because of its size. Comparing on price does not make sense to me. You can get an Escalade and 911 for the same price, so does that mean they are comparable?

stickguy

the comparison tests have all been versus the 3, A5, etc. even if the WB is a little longer, it doesn't really compete against the cars in the E/5 series class. Seems like it has always been that way though.

I was thinking it should compare to the 3GT. I assume they still make that one? The car mags (C&D) used the hatches (4 series and A5 sportback)

flightnurse

They still make the 3GT, the issue really is, the 3GT only comes in xDrive while the Stinger can be had in RWD and AWD. Which I don't think is a proper comparison.

stickguy

well, in the north east, the 3 series effectively only comes as Xdrive. You will never find a RWD on the lot. I am guessing that Kia will likely be the same.

qbrozen

Here is what I posted on the previous page. In terms of interior room, especially rear seat space, the 5 and the Stinger are a virtual tie. In all measurements, it is clear that it is closer to the 5 than the 3.

Having a bit of trouble with passenger volumes of the BMWs, but here is what I was able to dig up. Interestingly, the 3'er has more front leg room than the 5'er. Stinger trumps both. Rear leg room is within a tenth of an inch between the 5'er and Stinger.

Stinger:
Length 190.2
Width 73.6
Height 55.1
Wheelbase 114.4
Passenger capacity 93.8 cu ft
Leg room front/rear 42.6/36.4

5’er:
Length 194.6
Width 73.5
Height 58.2
Wheelbase 117.1
Passenger capacity ?
Leg room front/rear 41.4/36.5

3’er:
Length 182.5
Width 71.3
Height 56.3
Wheelbase 110.6
Passenger capacity ?
Leg room front/rear 42.0/35.1

flightnurse

stickguy said:

well, in the north east, the 3 series effectively only comes as Xdrive. You will never find a RWD on the lot. I am guessing that Kia will likely be the same.

This because the dealer won't order them, but you can get RWD cars you just have to order them.

dino001

The idea of going against 3 rather than 5 is to advertise „it’s bigger, has more power, more stuff and it’s cheaper”. Going against bigger 5 series that has many more available features (even if optional) would make it rather unsubstantiated in eyes of people who are silling to spend north if 60 grand, even uf couple metrics match. Just like the CTS might have been 5er size, it was crossed shopped by 3-series buyers, no matter what Cadillac’s marketng department tried to sell.

dino001

stickguy said:

well, in the north east, the 3 series effectively only comes as Xdrive. You will never find a RWD on the lot. I am guessing that Kia will likely be the same.

That may be true where you live, not so much here. So all you need is to get on a plane, or order.

qbrozen

dino001 said:

The idea of going against 3 rather than 5 is to advertise „it’s bigger, has more power, more stuff and it’s cheaper”. Going against bigger 5 series that has many more available features (even if optional) would make it rather unsubstantiated in eyes of people who are silling to spend north if 60 grand, even uf couple metrics match. Just like the CTS might have been 5er size, it was crossed shopped by 3-series buyers, no matter what Cadillac’s marketng department tried to sell.

On the other hand, it could be judged heavier and less dynamic than the 3'er yet hold its own or be better than the 5'er in those areas. Also, of course, WAY cheaper than a comparable 5.

dino001

I think less than 5 percent of buyers look at curb weight and less tham fifth of those would make it a decision issue.

qbrozen

Yes, but I think many sports sedan buyers "feel" the weight.
Granted, some manufacturers do wonders. My 3950lb CTS felt lighter than my 3700lb Mustang and 3750lb G35x. 

dino001

With current engines, weight is much less an issue than it was 20 or even 10 years ago.

stickguy

BMW certainly keeps porking up. only so much you can do to overcome physics.

andres3

dino001 said:

I think less than 5 percent of buyers look at curb weight and less tham fifth of those would make it a decision issue.

so doing the math, your saying about 1% make it a decision issue?

While probably accurate, I'd argue the percentage where it does matter is higher. Weight (less of it) assists in better handling, ride, acceleration, fuel economy, and braking. Lighter cars simply feel more toss-able. Those seeking sporty handling will notice it, even if they don't look at spec sheets.

andres3

stickguy said:

BMW certainly keeps porking up. only so much you can do to overcome physics.

Tires and brake pads will complain about weight by making you run out of them sooner and faster. The tires on my lighter TTS are holding up well, though I am planning to get new PS4's soon.