Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

roadburner

My 2er weighs about the same as my 1988 M6, which was about 1.5 feet longer. The M6 had a Dinan chip and no cat so it was fairly quick for its day, but certainly not as fast as the 2 Series. That said, the M6 had timeless style and a incredibly cool exhaust note.

flightnurse

Oh, my do we have a new entry into the ELLPS?

https://blog.caranddriver.com/2019-mercedes-benz-a-class-debuts-will-spawn-at-least-three-models-for-u-s/?src=nl&mag=cdb&list=nl_dvr_news&date=020518

stickguy

Like the idea. Nice styling. Dash looks hideous.

Mr_Shiftright

Looks like one of those Dyson vacuum cleaners. That's not a luxury look--that's GEE-GAW.

flightnurse

I like the dash, it's different, and I'm sure that is what will be coming in the future.
Rick and I stopped and looked a Stinger, it was a GT-1 V6 RWD, MSRP 46K, with all the features and options on this car a BMW 4 series 440i GC would be in the low 60's. It was very roomy in the rear seat, but getting in and out was a PIA. We didn't drive it, but for a 14K difference, I'm not too sure if paying the difference is worth it. The fit and finish was first rate, the salesman needed more training or he got his Audi models confused, he kept saying the Stinger competed against the A8.

Stopped by the Volvo dealer, and was shocked a V90 (wagon) on the lot, according to the salesman, someone ordered it and decided to take a V60 instead. Not too sure why the interior of that V90 was stunning. 55K fully loaded. What a deal, an MB E400 wagon starts at 59K. Volvo has a hit, not too sure why the V90 wagon (not to get confused by the Cross Country) is special order only car.

coldinohio

based on my brief drive of the Stinger GT2, Kia will have to up its game to play with the Audi /BMW / MB crowd; and having a $3500 regional markup is a non-starter

but the V6 is pretty nice

Michaell

Soooo .... here's a thought.

From what I've read, it doesn't look like Kia will be able to convert the BMW/Audi/MB/Infiniti clientele to give the Stinger a second look, much less a first one.

But, for folks who haven't driven those brands on a regular basis (like me), would we be impressed enough with the drive / feel / interior materials enough to consider it?

Not that I'm in the market for a $30-50K vehicle like this, but just wondering ....

kyfdx

The lease penetration is pretty high at those price points. And, the Stinger lease program sucks.

So, I'll guess it will sell about as well as the Cadenza.

stickguy

Yes, I think newbies are the focus. And current hyunkia owners that want to get fancier. And of course people that can’t afford the name brands. Not seeing a lot of diehards or brand snobs making the switch.

flightnurse

kyfdx said:

The lease penetration is pretty high at those price points. And, the Stinger lease program sucks.

So, I'll guess it will sell about as well as the Cadenza.

I know the Residual is like 50% and the MF isn't that good, but doesn't Kia have 6700 lease cash? Alfa had the same issue with the Gulita when it first came out, but they lease programs have gotten better.

Michaell

flightnurse said:

kyfdx said:

The lease penetration is pretty high at those price points. And, the Stinger lease program sucks.

So, I'll guess it will sell about as well as the Cadenza.

I know the Residual is like 50% and the MF isn't that good, but doesn't Kia have 6700 lease cash? Alfa had the same issue with the Gulita when it first came out, but they lease programs have gotten better.

Kia has changed up the calculus of their lease programs - high MF, low residual but high lease cash.

For 36 months and 12,000 miles per year, MF ranges between .00195 and .00200, residuals between 50-54%, and lease cast between $4800-7200

flightnurse

Is lease cash depended on location?

roadburner

I think the Alfa situation is also a bit different; it's a classic European brand that I think can do well if they iron out the QC issues and reliability is decent.

qbrozen

Michaell said:

Soooo .... here's a thought. From what I've read, it doesn't look like Kia will be able to convert the BMW/Audi/MB/Infiniti clientele to give the Stinger a second look, much less a first one. But, for folks who haven't driven those brands on a regular basis (like me), would we be impressed enough with the drive / feel / interior materials enough to consider it? Not that I'm in the market for a $30-50K vehicle like this, but just wondering ....

Or folks who have had one or more of those brands, isn't a badge snob, and is looking for better reliability. And before folks jump up and down on me, I'm not saying it will prove more reliable, just talking perceptions and biases here.

Michaell

flightnurse said:

Is lease cash depended on location?

For the Stinger, the numbers are national.

flightnurse

roadburner said:

I think the Alfa situation is also a bit different; it's a classic European brand that I think can do well if they iron out the QC issues and reliability is decent.

I'm not aware that Alfa has had major quality issues with its cars lately.

flightnurse

Michaell said:

flightnurse said:

Is lease cash depended on location?

For the Stinger, the numbers are national.

So why is it 4800 to 7200?

kyfdx

flightnurse said:

Michaell said:

flightnurse said:

Is lease cash depended on location?

For the Stinger, the numbers are national.

So why is it 4800 to 7200?

Depending on trim and drive

kyfdx

A lot more Stinger lease info can be found, here:
https://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/49547/kia/stinger/2018-kia-stinger-lease-deals-and-prices#latest

henryn

This thread has been dead for a while. Did anyone ever actually buy a Stinger? Inquiring minds want to know.

stickguy

I think I saw one out on the road so far. Maybe.

roadburner

I'd consider a RWD GT2 once depreciation has knocked the price down to a reasonable level. For what one would cost new I'd rather have a CPO F80 M3 or F82 M4- or a Mustang Bullitt for that matter.

kyfdx

The Kia is fast and relatively large.. If you value size in a vehicle, that's great. But, I'd take the Alfa over it, in that price range.

roadburner

Me too. I do like the Giulia TI as well as the Stelvio TI.

carnaught

kyfdx said:

The Kia is fast and relatively large.. If you value size in a vehicle, that's great. But, I'd take the Alfa over it, in that price range.

I agree, with qualification. The Alfa would be a lease only.

kyfdx

I wouldn't buy a Stinger, for the same reason as the Alfa. The real depreciation might be a killer.

I don't think Kia is famous for reliability/repair, either.

roadburner

As I said, a RWD GT2 may well be a screaming bargain after the massive depreciation hit.

ab348

It seems like auto journos were the main group that were in love with the Stinger. And they don't buy them.

Mr_Shiftright

This Jalopnik article has an interesting angle on the "Kia problem".

https://jalopnik.com/kia-will-have-a-hard-time-selling-the-stinger-gt-unless-1790975835

Actually this quote from a Reddit user seems to suggest that the Stinger is plodding along--not too bad:

"Kia moved 1,378 Stingers in April of 2018, for a total of 5,298 for the year. Compare that with the A5/S5/RS5, which sold a total of 2,169 in April and 8,243 for the year."

dino001

This article is describing exactly what I think will be largest problems for Stingers and any other model over 40 grand. It's not even about the technology, as luxury dealers are sometimes behind on that, too (they were last ones to have their inventory posted online), but the attitude of "you must buy it today" that simply doesn't work for people who know they can afford a car twice as expensive, if they wanted to. All I need is to see the commercials of Kia dealers from my area and I know I don't want to go there. If they keep the Stinger around I still may need to bite the bullet and go to check it out for my next car. I get cold sweat even thinking about it.

flightnurse

Kia had a "Stinger Experience" here in Phoenix 2 months back and Rick and I went. It was very interesting they had 3 Kia Stinger GT RWD and 3 with AWD. They also had a BMW 640i GC, Audi A5, Porsche Panamera and another car I can't remember. You drive the "other" car first around a road course, then you pick a GT to drive, there are three laps, the last lap was driven by one of the "Professional" drivers. I got the Audi A5 and it was a dog, Rick got the 640 and loved it.

The GT has power, and it handles well, but I think we all know that Kia's do not hold value, I would wait for one to come off lease and be able to pick up a GT2 for about 23-25K.

flightnurse

dino001 said:

This article is describing exactly what I think will be largest problems for Stingers and any other model over 40 grand. It's not even about the technology, as luxury dealers are sometimes behind on that, too (they were last ones to have their inventory posted online), but the attitude of "you must buy it today" that simply doesn't work for people who know they can afford a car twice as expensive, if they wanted to. All I need is to see the commercials of Kia dealers from my area and I know I don't want to go there. If they keep the Stinger around I still may need to bite the bullet and go to check it out for my next car. I get cold sweat even thinking about it.

Then don't buy a Kia, but a Genesis G70 with a manual.

dino001

flightnurse said:

dino001 said:

This article is describing exactly what I think will be largest problems for Stingers and any other model over 40 grand. It's not even about the technology, as luxury dealers are sometimes behind on that, too (they were last ones to have their inventory posted online), but the attitude of "you must buy it today" that simply doesn't work for people who know they can afford a car twice as expensive, if they wanted to. All I need is to see the commercials of Kia dealers from my area and I know I don't want to go there. If they keep the Stinger around I still may need to bite the bullet and go to check it out for my next car. I get cold sweat even thinking about it.

Then don't buy a Kia, but a Genesis G70 with a manual.

Does it have a hatch?

stickguy

nope. Small 4 door sedan. Bummer.

dino001

stickguy said:

nope. Small 4 door sedan. Bummer.

I knew that. It was rethorical. I said here that Stinger belonged to Genesis line IMHO, not Kia.

circlew

Lease offer on GT 36 months. Tempting.
Unknown $ Offer

Requirements and Restrictions:

Limited Term Customer Bonus Cash is available towards leasing. Must finance through captive lender using special lease rates on 36 month contracts only. See dealer for details.
Customer $ Offer Start End
$5,000 Unknown 06/01/2018 07/09/2018

henryn

^^^ There are a great many cars out there which have the 2 letters "GT" as part of their nomenclature. Which one exactly are you referring to here???

circlew

Stinger GT in NJ

qbrozen

Wonder what the rest of the details are, such as MF and residual.

flightnurse

$299/month 2.0 RWD
36 Months
$2,999 Due at Signing for Qualified Lessees


Closed-end lease based on new 2018 Stinger (Model #H5312) subject to credit approval, dealer participation, and vehicle availability. Offer shown based on $2,999 due at lease signing including $299 first monthly payment, $2,050 capitalized cost reduction, $650 acquisition fee, plus tax, title, license and registration fees, dealer conveyance fee, processing fee or optional service fee and any emission testing charge. No security deposit required. Offer shown total lease payments are $13,464. Actual payments may vary. Purchase option at lease-end for offer shown of residual value of $17,056.00. Lessee is responsible for insurance, maintenance, repairs, $.20 per mile over 10,000 miles/year, excess wear, and a $400 termination fee*. Lease offer applies to Stinger (MSRP $32,800, includes freight, and excludes taxes, title, license, additional options and retailer charges). Actual prices set by dealer.Must take delivery from retail stock by 7/9/2018. Dealer contribution may vary and could affect actual lease payment. See dealer for warranty and lease details or go to kia.com.
*Termination fee for all states except CO, IN, IA, KS, ME, OK, SC, WI, WV & WY.

*WI termination fee: The amount of the base monthly lease payment or $400, whichever is less.

*CO, IA, KS, ME, OK, WV & WY termination fee: The amount of two times the base monthly lease payment or $400, whichever is less.

*IN & SC termination fee: The amount of three times the base monthly lease payment or $400, whichever is less.

stickguy

so close to $400 including tax, putting down the DMV fees. Not a screaming bargain.

henryn

0-60 in 5 seconds flat, not too shabby. Not super car level, but far from slow.

kyfdx

flightnurse said:

$299/month 2.0 RWD
36 Months
$2,999 Due at Signing for Qualified Lessees


Closed-end lease based on new 2018 Stinger (Model #H5312) subject to credit approval, dealer participation, and vehicle availability. Offer shown based on $2,999 due at lease signing including $299 first monthly payment, $2,050 capitalized cost reduction, $650 acquisition fee, plus tax, title, license and registration fees, dealer conveyance fee, processing fee or optional service fee and any emission testing charge. No security deposit required. Offer shown total lease payments are $13,464. Actual payments may vary. Purchase option at lease-end for offer shown of residual value of $17,056.00. Lessee is responsible for insurance, maintenance, repairs, $.20 per mile over 10,000 miles/year, excess wear, and a $400 termination fee*. Lease offer applies to Stinger (MSRP $32,800, includes freight, and excludes taxes, title, license, additional options and retailer charges). Actual prices set by dealer.Must take delivery from retail stock by 7/9/2018. Dealer contribution may vary and could affect actual lease payment. See dealer for warranty and lease details or go to kia.com.
*Termination fee for all states except CO, IN, IA, KS, ME, OK, SC, WI, WV & WY.

*WI termination fee: The amount of the base monthly lease payment or $400, whichever is less.

*CO, IA, KS, ME, OK, WV & WY termination fee: The amount of two times the base monthly lease payment or $400, whichever is less.

*IN & SC termination fee: The amount of three times the base monthly lease payment or $400, whichever is less.

That is a RWD base model, not a GT

roadburner

The only one that interests me is the RWD GT2; there aren't any in my neck of the woods. I'd still probably end up with a Giulia Ti instead if I was straying from the Munich fold.

qbrozen

stickguy said:

so close to $400 including tax, putting down the DMV fees. Not a screaming bargain.

A good bit over $400, actually, and pretty awful on a $33k car.

benjaminh

This thread seems quiet lately, but finally I'm now an actual member in good standing.

Here are the latest sales figures for this category for June, and ouch—the TLX seems to be in a sales slump.

Clcass 5,742 -19.3%

A4 3,893 +19%

ES 3,592 -23%

3series 3,551 -30.7%

Q50 2,631 -18.4%

TLX 2,290 -27.9%

IS 2,017 -4.1%

MKZ 1,824 -18.6%

Giulia 979 -1%

S60 580 -42.2%

benjaminh

Moving from an Accord to a TLX prevents one tiny problem (which is pretty meaningless)—"meeting" your exact car at an intersection or on the road. My wife and I made a joke of it, but several times we'd see a white Accord that looked just like mine, or a red Accord that looked just lke hers. Once I was at a four-way stop sign and there were four Accords of different colors and generations there all at once. Now that I'm an Acura owner I do notice Acuras more, but usually they're RDXs, MDXs, and earlier Acura sedans. There are definitely TLXs on the road, but seeing one is pretty rare.

stickguy

The entire category is slumping. Only Audi is up. At least the S60 is being replaced this year, giving that tiny number some justification.

I was noticing yesterday my neighborhood has quite a Acura’s. Every 2nd or 3rd house has at least 1, some 2. My block has a couple TLX, a TSX, 3 (that I noticed) RDX and 4-5 MDX.

brian125

If I was about 25 pounds lighter and 3 inches shorter I'd buy the Audi A/S4. I really like them. I don't see any TLX's here in SC or NYC area . What I have noticed was a lot of Q50's ( good leases ) and MDX's in NY the last year or so.

brian125

benjaminh

Any thoughts yet................ Pro's / Cons going from the Accord to a TLX.