Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

flightnurse

stickguy said:

The entire category is slumping. Only Audi is up. At least the S60 is being replaced this year, giving that tiny number some justification.

I was noticing yesterday my neighborhood has quite a Acura’s. Every 2nd or 3rd house has at least 1, some 2. My block has a couple TLX, a TSX, 3 (that I noticed) RDX and 4-5 MDX.

The S60 and 3 Series are new for 2019. and I think Volvo has a hit on its hand with the new S60/V60.

stickguy

I liked what I saw and read about on it. Hope it is as nice in person.

benjaminh

brian125 said:

benjaminh

Any thoughts yet................ Pro's / Cons going from the Accord to a TLX.

Huge difference. Wish I'd done it before. Although it might be that the great deal I got was only available at this time for the significantly improved 2018 TLX. The 2017 TLX iirc lacked AcuraWatch and lacked AndroidAuto, both essential features imho.

On the TLX 2.4 the 0-60 acceleration, to be blunt, seems about the same as an Accord to me—although how you get there is different. At first acceleration seems faster in the TLX in 1st and 2nd, but then as it quickly goes toward 4th, 5th and beyond, it just loses punch. This is all in "Normal" mode. I think I might try Sport for a while and see what that's like. The TLX's 2.4 engine, of course, is a slightly souped up version of the Accord's engine that's made to take advantage of premium gas.

But aside from the engine almost everything else is a big upgrade over an Accord. For the most part, you can't even tell that there's any relation between the two cars. The steering with PAWS is sharper and better, the transmission with the 8-speed dual clutch is also a very different experience from a CVT, the leather seats feel as comfortable and supportive as those of the new BMW I was just in yesterday, the suspension has that planted feeling almost like you are riding on rails (but it's still really comfortable), etc. And the the sound system is beyond anything Honda offers, and maybe even better than what's offered in a comparable BMW or Lexus.

brian125

Sounds like a nice upgrade to a Accord. Next time I'm at Acura dealer I will test drive one. Acura's sound system is one of the best systems. Lots of luck with your new ride!

henryn

brian125 said:

Sounds like a nice upgrade to a Accord. Next time I'm at Acura dealer I will test drive one.

I have never been in an Acura dealership. I've never driven one, and offhand I can't recall ever riding in one. I know a couple of people who own one of their SUVs, but I've never happened to ride with them.

Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, of course, many times. Riding in, driving, whatever. Just for some reason, no Acura. Maybe they don't sell well here in Texas?

flightnurse

stickguy said:

I liked what I saw and read about on it. Hope it is as nice in person.

I've seen 2 2019 S60 and 2 V60 with manufacture plates on them here in Phoenix, each time with 3 XC90's in tow, they are stunning in person.

qbrozen

flightnurse said:

The entire category is slumping. Only Audi is up. At least the S60 is being replaced this year, giving that tiny number some justification. I was noticing yesterday my neighborhood has quite a Acura’s. Every 2nd or 3rd house has at least 1, some 2. My block has a couple TLX, a TSX, 3 (that I noticed) RDX and 4-5 MDX.

The S60 and 3 Series are new for 2019. and I think Volvo has a hit on its hand with the new S60/V60.

I'm liking the XC40 more and more as I see the commercials and them in the wild. Saw one today that was in a kind if orangey-red. Really sharp.

flightnurse

qbrozen said:

I'm liking the XC40 more and more as I see the commercials and them in the wild. Saw one today that was in a kind if orangey-red. Really sharp.

There is a lot of room in them

stickguy

I liked the one that I saw at the car show. One of these days I will find an excuse to be out running errands near the Volvo dealer, and just stop in to browse.

andres3

benjaminh said:

Moving from an Accord to a TLX prevents one tiny problem (which is pretty meaningless)—"meeting" your exact car at an intersection or on the road. My wife and I made a joke of it, but several times we'd see a white Accord that looked just like mine, or a red Accord that looked just lke hers. Once I was at a four-way stop sign and there were four Accords of different colors and generations there all at once. Now that I'm an Acura owner I do notice Acuras more, but usually they're RDXs, MDXs, and earlier Acura sedans. There are definitely TLXs on the road, but seeing one is pretty rare.

If you want rare, get an RLX! I saw one out in the wild today, probably the first of 2018!

andres3

flightnurse said:

Kia had a "Stinger Experience" here in Phoenix 2 months back and Rick and I went. It was very interesting they had 3 Kia Stinger GT RWD and 3 with AWD. They also had a BMW 640i GC, Audi A5, Porsche Panamera and another car I can't remember. You drive the "other" car first around a road course, then you pick a GT to drive, there are three laps, the last lap was driven by one of the "Professional" drivers. I got the Audi A5 and it was a dog, Rick got the 640 and loved it.

The GT has power, and it handles well, but I think we all know that Kia's do not hold value, I would wait for one to come off lease and be able to pick up a GT2 for about 23-25K.

Just curious, do you remember if the A5 was FWD or quattro? The other thing that wouldn't surprise me is if they put low octane fuel in a high octane competitor.

andres3

qbrozen said:

Michaell said:

Soooo .... here's a thought.

From what I've read, it doesn't look like Kia will be able to convert the BMW/Audi/MB/Infiniti clientele to give the Stinger a second look, much less a first one.

But, for folks who haven't driven those brands on a regular basis (like me), would we be impressed enough with the drive / feel / interior materials enough to consider it?

Not that I'm in the market for a $30-50K vehicle like this, but just wondering ....

Or folks who have had one or more of those brands, isn't a badge snob, and is looking for better reliability. And before folks jump up and down on me, I'm not saying it will prove more reliable, just talking perceptions and biases here.

If one follows CR one knows Kia has been rocking it pretty well in the reliability department in recent time. My Kia experience mirrors CR's ratings, yet again. CR always hits it out of the park for me.

flightnurse

andres3 said:

Just curious, do you remember if the A5 was FWD or quattro? The other thing that wouldn't surprise me is if they put low octane fuel in a high octane competitor.

It was Quartto, no sport package, it handled very poorly.

stickguy

It seems counter intuitive, but it seems that some of the premium/luxury brands are still more problematic than mainstream, cheaper ones. To me, if I am paying top dollar, one of the things I expect is a well designed and built car, that should need nothing but routine maintenance. Just like my Hyundais have been! I would rather not even care how the service department experience is, since I only go once a year and it takes an hour or less.

kyfdx

The top makes for reliability are perennially, Honda and Toyota.

I don't think expensive cars have ever been known for reliability, or low maintenance costs.

benjaminh

kyfdx said:

The top makes for reliability are perennially, Honda and Toyota.

I don't think expensive cars have ever been known for reliability, or low maintenance costs.

But I assume that means Honda/Acura and Toyota/Lexus....?

andres3

stickguy said:

It seems counter intuitive, but it seems that some of the premium/luxury brands are still more problematic than mainstream, cheaper ones. To me, if I am paying top dollar, one of the things I expect is a well designed and built car, that should need nothing but routine maintenance. Just like my Hyundais have been! I would rather not even care how the service department experience is, since I only go once a year and it takes an hour or less.

How reliable has your son's Audi been?

andres3

henryn said:

0-60 in 5 seconds flat, not too shabby. Not super car level, but far from slow.

The S4 8 years ago achieved 4.9. So there's that.

Then add the tendency for Koreans to exaggerate their abilities and metrics/statistics, and the German's propensity to understate it, and yeah!

Mr_Shiftright

kyfdx said:

The top makes for reliability are perennially, Honda and Toyota.

I don't think expensive cars have ever been known for reliability, or low maintenance costs.

That's not what they are built for--the expensive cars are generally leased or traded in after a few years, and certainly during warranty. They are made for people who want the latest in luxury and gadgetry, and a few years, want the NEW latest in luxury and gadgetry.

stickguy

andres3 said:

stickguy said:

It seems counter intuitive, but it seems that some of the premium/luxury brands are still more problematic than mainstream, cheaper ones. To me, if I am paying top dollar, one of the things I expect is a well designed and built car, that should need nothing but routine maintenance. Just like my Hyundais have been! I would rather not even care how the service department experience is, since I only go once a year and it takes an hour or less.

How reliable has your son's Audi been?

no issues. I don't think it has been back to the dealer for other than routine service. And a couple of busted tires!

henryn

Mr_Shiftright said:

That's not what they are built for--the expensive cars are generally leased or traded in after a few years, and certainly during warranty. They are made for people who want the latest in luxury and gadgetry, and a few years, want the NEW latest in luxury and gadgetry.

I'm not about to argue against what you're saying, basically I agree with you. But... what exactly does that say about anyone who buys a used Mercedes or BMW or Audi or ...

I'm not going to spend that amount of money on a new car, and I'm not going to own a used one, so I am out of that market, sorry.

roadburner

All but two of my 11 BMWs were purchased used, and only four were CPO cars. I always pay them off within 2-3 years and keep them for 8-10 years at a minimum. So far I have no regrets on any of my purchases- although the E90 328i was not exactly exciting and was offloaded to my son. As a point of comparison my Mazdaspeed 3 needed several repairs under warranty and I eventually needed to replace most of the suspension components, but like my BMWs, the pleasure the car gave me outweighed those issues.

Could I have saved some money sticking with mainstream sedans or SUVs? Probably. But frankly, I could not care less; the cars I drive have to make me smile, and I can't imagine driving anything that doesn't...

Michaell

Food for thought on the Stinger

stickguy

interesting. Even more so in a couple years when they are CPO at half the price

Michaell

stickguy said:

interesting. Even more so in a couple years when they are CPO at half the price

Yeah, I noticed that was conspicuously omitted from the article. These are going to make some great buys, used. I don't think they'll get modded, unlike the STi or Type R.

roadburner

The Stinger is still too big for my tastes- and all the idiot dealers in my area only stock GT2 cars with AWD, pandering to the nitwits that think RWD is tantamount to a death sentence on anything other than straight and level dry pavement. I did see a Stinger in the wild today; I think it looks worse in person...

benjaminh

Tried to figure out how much it would be to get an Audi A4 with about the same level of equipment as my TLX Tech. The number I came up with was c.46k for the Audi A4 with leather, navi, upgraded sound system, etc.—about 9k more than the TLX.

stickguy

you do gain some HP in the deal though. and AWD (assuming you are looking at a Quattro).

benjaminh

stickguy said:

you do gain some HP in the deal though. and AWD (assuming you are looking at a Quattro).

Audi A4 Ultra Prestige FWD.

stickguy

Ah, a FWD. always seems odd to see one of these at an Audi dealer. And Audi prices. Forget the extra HP. that one is detuned. But, at least I think they did away with the CVT. I would get a much cheaper TLX instead.

henryn

Michaell said:

stickguy said:

interesting. Even more so in a couple years when they are CPO at half the price

Yeah, I noticed that was conspicuously omitted from the article. These are going to make some great buys, used. I don't think they'll get modded, unlike the STi or Type R.

Everybody keeps saying that, so much so that I am beginning to have doubts. If everyone wants a clean used 2 year old Stinger, then supply and demand will kick in, and the price will go up. Way up.

Time will tell. In the meantime, I think I may go looking for a 3 year old Genesis R-Spec V8. I know those are cheap.

andres3

benjaminh said:

stickguy said:

you do gain some HP in the deal though. and AWD (assuming you are looking at a Quattro).

Audi A4 Ultra Prestige FWD.

Did you see the fuel economy on that model though? I can vouch that Audi knows how to do FWD as well as anyone, including Honda.

circlew

The Stinger is still too big for my tastes- and all the idiot dealers in my area only stock GT2 cars with AWD, pandering to the nitwits that think RWD is tantamount to a death sentence on anything other than straight and level dry pavement. I did see a Stinger in the wild today; I think it looks worse in person...

Same in Centrsl NJ. All AWD. I test drove one . It's a true GT that is very quick. Bottom line, great cruiser but over priced at this time, even with the incentives. The lease rate comes to over 5%!

I told the sales person I preferred RWD and crickets....

iluvmysephia1

I think the Stinger is too big and it's also too expensive for me. The 2019 Kia Forte is soon ta be out and Kia fans are saying it looks sorta like a baby Kia Stinger. The 2019 Kia Forte 6-speed stick would work out good for the Mrs. and I some day.

I've got a buddy over here in Alamogordo that swears by RWD cars. He says they're safer in the ice and snow than FWD cars and, basically, does not shut up about the issue. We just laugh at him and kid him about it - he also criticizes our driving (the other guy's driving, because I pretty much agree with him about this) as far as lane change procedures, putting on our turn signals correctly, etc. He's a stickler for driving accuracy, and, in those matters, I agree with him. I hate it when I'm turning right, for instance, and somebody behind me turns right, but goes around me right into the left lane without turning first into the right lane. I agree with him, that's not how the driver's guide teaches a person when they're first learning how to drive. And how they first teach you goes for lifetime driving.

But he's got an old Cadillac Catera RWD that he fixes or has repaired often. Loves it so much. And he's as feisty as Geronimo was dealing with the US Cavalry regarding how much better a RWD car is over a FWD.

benjaminh

The resale values/residuals for most luxury performance sedans are weak compared to something like a Honda Accord. As you all know, that sometimes makes getting a used one a good deal. Sometimes it seems like for just a thousand or two more than an Accord with the same years and mileage you can pick up a 320i, an A4, or a TLX. Even new it seems like the lease incentives on some luxury sedans are so high they they are almost giving you for free the added quality, features, and performance of the luxury car.

I've mentioned before that maybe the most interesting book on the auto industry I ever read is called "Car: A Drama of the American Workplace" by Mary Walton, published in 1999. This book was not about a luxury car, but instead about the second generation Taurus, which Ford was trying to push higher in the marketplace. Anyway, one of the memorable things about it for me was that—not surprisingly—every single part on a car goes through a tough process of figuring out what the cost and therefore quality of the part can be. Ford was trying to make the 1996 Taurus a car that people would buy without big rebates, and as it was first designed and for its first year they allowed a higher budget for the cost of various parts so they would feel nicer, and sometimes function better. When the 2nd gen Taurus flopped in the marketplace the project manager had to huddle with his designers and engineers and try to figure out in an almost brutal way how to take something like $1500 in costs out of the car, which involved getting cheaper parts here, there, and everywhere.

Since I read that I've been even more aware than I was before of the quality of big and small things in a car. Sitting in a rental Hyundai Sonata, for instance, I could almost immediately tell that most parts did not get quite as good a budget/engineering detail as the Honda Accords I used to own.

And now with my new TLX, I can tell that the amount spent on most parts is not surprisingly higher than for a Honda. For instance, the steering wheel buttons and controls have a quality and size on the TLX that a Honda just doesn't have. This is partially about aesthetics, but it also impacts function. The adaptive cruise controls etc. are easier and more intuitive to use in the Acura when compared with my wife's new CR-V with its small and comparatively cheap butttons.

Again, given the discounts and incentives that most luxury performance sedans need to move, it's almost like the customer is getting this added quality for very little cost—and in some cases almost for "free."

andres3

benjaminh said:

The resale values/residuals for most luxury performance sedans are weak compared to something like a Honda Accord. As you all know, that sometimes makes getting a used one a good deal. Sometimes it seems like for just a thousand or two more than an Accord with the same years and mileage you can pick up a 320i, an A4, or a TLX. Even new it seems like the lease incentives on some luxury sedans are so high they they are almost giving you for free the added quality, features, and performance of the luxury car.

I've mentioned before that maybe the most interesting book on the auto industry I ever read is called "Car: A Drama of the American Workplace" by Mary Walton, published in 1999. This book was not about a luxury car, but instead about the second generation Taurus, which Ford was trying to push higher in the marketplace. Anyway, one of the memorable things about it for me was that—not surprisingly—every single part on a car goes through a tough process of figuring out what the cost and therefore quality of the part can be. Ford was trying to make the 1996 Taurus a car that people would buy without big rebates, and as it was first designed and for its first year they allowed a higher budget for the cost of various parts so they would feel nicer, and sometimes function better. When the 2nd gen Taurus flopped in the marketplace the project manager had to huddle with his designers and engineers and try to figure out in an almost brutal way how to take something like $1500 in costs out of the car, which involved getting cheaper parts here, there, and everywhere.

Since I read that I've been even more aware than I was before of the quality of big and small things in a car. Sitting in a rental Hyundai Sonata, for instance, I could almost immediately tell that most parts did not get quite as good a budget/engineering detail as the Honda Accords I used to own.

And now with my new TLX, I can tell that the amount spent on most parts is not surprisingly higher than for a Honda. For instance, the steering wheel buttons and controls have a quality and size on the TLX that a Honda just doesn't have. This is partially about aesthetics, but it also impacts function. The adaptive cruise controls etc. are easier and more intuitive to use in the Acura when compared with my wife's new CR-V with its small and comparatively cheap butttons.

Again, given the discounts and incentives that most luxury performance sedans need to move, it's almost like the customer is getting this added quality for very little cost—and in some cases almost for "free."

I think you hit the nail on the head. The gadgets and whiz bang bells and whistles keep increasing, but the underlying quality seems to be going the other way; especially in the better "lower-end" makes. Lots of things are being compromised to hit price points while adding the latest nanny features.

qbrozen

Just read a comparison of Accord 2.0T sport. $36k?! Sign me up for a Stinger instead, please!

Or maybe a base Giulia.

andres3

qbrozen said:

Just read a comparison of Accord 2.0T sport. $36k?! Sign me up for a Stinger instead, please!

Or maybe a base Giulia.

Can you get a V6 Stinger for $36K though? Maybe with discounts? Would you really want a 2.0T Stinger?

Michaell

qbrozen said:

Just read a comparison of Accord 2.0T sport. $36k?! Sign me up for a Stinger instead, please!

Or maybe a base Giulia.

2.0T Sport at $36K? You sure that wasn't a Touring?

Folks on the Accords Prices Paid boards are getting 2.0T Sports for $27-28K

qbrozen

andres3 said:

Just read a comparison of Accord 2.0T sport. $36k?! Sign me up for a Stinger instead, please! Or maybe a base Giulia.

Can you get a V6 Stinger for $36K though? Maybe with discounts? Would you really want a 2.0T Stinger?

That's the fair comparison to the 2.0T Accord, however.

qbrozen

Michaell said:

Just read a comparison of Accord 2.0T sport. $36k?! Sign me up for a Stinger instead, please! Or maybe a base Giulia.

2.0T Sport at $36K? You sure that wasn't a Touring? Folks on the Accords Prices Paid boards are getting 2.0T Sports for $27-28K

For a base cloth model. Stinger starts with leather and can be had for $30k.

andres3

qbrozen said:

andres3 said:

qbrozen said:

Just read a comparison of Accord 2.0T sport. $36k?! Sign me up for a Stinger instead, please!

Or maybe a base Giulia.

Can you get a V6 Stinger for $36K though? Maybe with discounts? Would you really want a 2.0T Stinger?

That's the fair comparison to the 2.0T Accord, however.

I agree with that.... if I was considering the 2.0T Accord, I'd also want to test drive the 2.0T Stinger.

qbrozen

Yes, definitey. Yet I don't think many Accord/Camry shoppers are doing that. I just wonder why. Is it  a badge problem or not knowing it even exists?

Michaell

qbrozen said:

Yes, definitey. Yet I don't think many Accord/Camry shoppers are doing that. I just wonder why. Is it  a badge problem or not knowing it even exists?

I think to most folks, RWD = bad, FWD = good.

Ergo, the Stinger doesn't make the cut.

Folks would cross shop the Optima to the Accord, IMO.

qbrozen

Michaell said:

Yes, definitey. Yet I don't think many Accord/Camry shoppers are doing that. I just wonder why. Is it  a badge problem or not knowing it even exists?

I think to most folks, RWD = bad, FWD = good. Ergo, the Stinger doesn't make the cut. Folks would cross shop the Optima to the Accord, IMO.

But how many people do you think even know that? I'd be willing to bet if you asked 100 random shmoes, maybe one of them would know it is RWD.

stickguy

I have a theory that 90% of CUV owners would have no clue if they had FWD instead of AWD. I guarantee my wife wouldn’t.

Michaell

qbrozen said:

Michaell said:

Yes, definitey. Yet I don't think many Accord/Camry shoppers are doing that. I just wonder why. Is it  a badge problem or not knowing it even exists?

I think to most folks, RWD = bad, FWD = good.

Ergo, the Stinger doesn't make the cut.

Folks would cross shop the Optima to the Accord, IMO.

But how many people do you think even know that? I'd be willing to bet if you asked 100 random shmoes, maybe one of them would know it is RWD.

qbrozen said:

Michaell said:

Yes, definitey. Yet I don't think many Accord/Camry shoppers are doing that. I just wonder why. Is it  a badge problem or not knowing it even exists?

I think to most folks, RWD = bad, FWD = good.

Ergo, the Stinger doesn't make the cut.

Folks would cross shop the Optima to the Accord, IMO.

But how many people do you think even know that? I'd be willing to bet if you asked 100 random shmoes, maybe one of them would know it is RWD.

True enough. But, those 100 random shmoes see the commercials of the car drifting around a race track. Not something Honda or Toyota would ever do with an Accord or Camry.

stickguy

well, Toyota does stuff like that with a Camry.

andres3

Michaell said:

qbrozen said:

Michaell said:

Yes, definitey. Yet I don't think many Accord/Camry shoppers are doing that. I just wonder why. Is it  a badge problem or not knowing it even exists?

I think to most folks, RWD = bad, FWD = good.

Ergo, the Stinger doesn't make the cut.

Folks would cross shop the Optima to the Accord, IMO.

But how many people do you think even know that? I'd be willing to bet if you asked 100 random shmoes, maybe one of them would know it is RWD.

qbrozen said:

Michaell said:

Yes, definitey. Yet I don't think many Accord/Camry shoppers are doing that. I just wonder why. Is it  a badge problem or not knowing it even exists?

I think to most folks, RWD = bad, FWD = good.

Ergo, the Stinger doesn't make the cut.

Folks would cross shop the Optima to the Accord, IMO.

But how many people do you think even know that? I'd be willing to bet if you asked 100 random shmoes, maybe one of them would know it is RWD.

True enough. But, those 100 random shmoes see the commercials of the car drifting around a race track. Not something Honda or Toyota would ever do with an Accord or Camry.


Wasn't there a Kia commercial where they show the Lambo as the competitor, and admit it is faster, but the Kia is better in every other way?

Mr_Shiftright

Found it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7L9XRfGULo