Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

andres3

I know what will revive this discussion. Let's argue about what constitutes the right amount of luxury and performance to be a vehicle that fits "Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedan."

qbrozen

flightnurse said:

Boy, this forum has died. So I've had my 330i now for 8 months, and I like it. Just had the car coded and applied the Dinan Sport tune. It gives a modest HP gain (25hp) but a healthy torque (50lbs) increase. It took 2 complete sleep cycles to feel the additional 50 lbs of torque. Not bad for $200 tune. This car just amazes on how the milesage I am getting with it, combined I'm getting a very solid 28.5, took a trip to Santa Fe, averages 34 on that trip, Ricks GT averaged 34 a few weeks later. Hope all is doing well.

Only $200? At the dealer? That's a bargain.

roadburner

The Dinatronics Sport for my car is only $300.

carnaught

These mods. sound nice, but do they they invalidate the warranty?

roadburner

carnaught said:

These mods. sound nice, but do they they invalidate the warranty?

They can; a lot depends on the dealer and the amount of the warranty claim.

stickguy

considering it is just a software update, it really should not be all that expensive. Well, it could be if the value is there, but not like there is much labor or parts involved.

as to ELLPs, I like them. Can't really afford a new one at this point, but I did really like the TLX. would however prefer it was a size smaller. A modern version of the ILX would be just right. Though more likely they kill that off.

but, right now, I am following the trend in the country of being more interested in a CUV alternative (the upcoming RDX). All the goodies, most of the performance, and a big square cargo area for convenience. Actually, for us, anything in this class would have to be the primary family car, and that is likely to always be something practical, like the RDX.

andres3

stickguy said:

considering it is just a software update, it really should not be all that expensive. Well, it could be if the value is there, but not like there is much labor or parts involved.

as to ELLPs, I like them. Can't really afford a new one at this point, but I did really like the TLX. would however prefer it was a size smaller. A modern version of the ILX would be just right. Though more likely they kill that off.

but, right now, I am following the trend in the country of being more interested in a CUV alternative (the upcoming RDX). All the goodies, most of the performance, and a big square cargo area for convenience. Actually, for us, anything in this class would have to be the primary family car, and that is likely to always be something practical, like the RDX.

Tuners claim the cost is to reimburse them for R&D, since it is just software.

stickguy

oh sure, just like Microsoft, etc.

like the old joke about the mechanic (or plumber, but hey, this is a car forum) that got called in, took one look, turned a screw 1 turn, and was done. Then handed owner a bill for $100. Owner then complained about such a high charge for 1 minute job, so mechanic took bill back and noted on it: "screw turning charge, $1.00. Knowing which screw to turn, $99.00"

roadburner

stickguy said:

considering it is just a software update, it really should not be all that expensive. Well, it could be if the value is there, but not like there is much labor or parts involved.

as to ELLPs, I like them. Can't really afford a new one at this point, but I did really like the TLX. would however prefer it was a size smaller. A modern version of the ILX would be just right. Though more likely they kill that off.

but, right now, I am following the trend in the country of being more interested in a CUV alternative (the upcoming RDX). All the goodies, most of the performance, and a big square cargo area for convenience. Actually, for us, anything in this class would have to be the primary family car, and that is likely to always be something practical, like the RDX.

The Dinantronic tunes are piggybacks.

qbrozen

carnaught said:

These mods. sound nice, but do they they invalidate the warranty?

If the dealer offers it, they back it up

qbrozen

stickguy said:

considering it is just a software update, it really should not be all that expensive. Well, it could be if the value is there, but not like there is much labor or parts involved. as to ELLPs, I like them. Can't really afford a new one at this point, but I did really like the TLX. would however prefer it was a size smaller. A modern version of the ILX would be just right. Though more likely they kill that off. but, right now, I am following the trend in the country of being more interested in a CUV alternative (the upcoming RDX). All the goodies, most of the performance, and a big square cargo area for convenience. Actually, for us, anything in this class would have to be the primary family car, and that is likely to always be something practical, like the RDX.

They shouldn't, but they usually do. As I recall, when dealers first started offering DInan tunes on the N55, it bumped them like 30hp and cost 50% more than the aftermarket units that offered double the power increase. I could be misremembering some details, but I believe that was the gist.

flightnurse

qbrozen said:

Only $200? At the dealer? That's a bargain.

Not at the dealer many aftermarket companies

flightnurse

roadburner said:

carnaught said:

These mods. sound nice, but do they they invalidate the warranty?

They can; a lot depends on the dealer and the amount of the warranty claim.

This is true, however, I'm not worried as I don't abuse the engine enough be concerned.

qbrozen

flightnurse said:

qbrozen said:

Only $200? At the dealer? That's a bargain.

Not at the dealer many aftermarket companies

Doesn't the dealer offer a tune? Or did they stop that?

flightnurse

qbrozen said:

flightnurse said:

qbrozen said:

Only $200? At the dealer? That's a bargain.

Not at the dealer many aftermarket companies

Doesn't the dealer offer a tune? Or did they stop that?

BNW does not offer one for the 4 cyl in the US only the 6.

andres3

stickguy said:

oh sure, just like Microsoft, etc.

like the old joke about the mechanic (or plumber, but hey, this is a car forum) that got called in, took one look, turned a screw 1 turn, and was done. Then handed owner a bill for $100. Owner then complained about such a high charge for 1 minute job, so mechanic took bill back and noted on it: "screw turning charge, $1.00. Knowing which screw to turn, $99.00"

I did raise an objection to the tunes for the S4 (and TTS) for that matter costing more than the A3 tune. The S4's is the most expensive.

I asked if "the cost was based on the MSRP and assumed bank account of said owners?"

The answer was that there were more 2.0T engines to spread the costs around than 3.0T (supercharged) engines. In fact, the 2.0T is used in VW's like the GTI. The 3.0 was limited to S4, Q5, A6, & A7.

andres3

For a while years back Audi let Stasis get in bed with them.

For people that were afraid of losing their warranty, they were perfect.

Of course, all Stasis really did was this:

GIAC tuning, which you could get from GIAC
I'm sure they sourced someone for a forged 20" wheel.
Alcon brake systems, rotors, calipers, and slapped the Stasis name on it.
AWE exhaust, and slapped the Stasis engraving on the tips.
I'm sure the coil-overs and sway bars were outsourced too.

I wonder if they did anything themselves.

Of course, I do remember noticing that KW used Koni Dampers.

flightnurse

As prices continue to climb what is really an ELLP? If you are talking about the base model, mid-level model?

My 330 MSRP was 47K, far from the base, and far from being fully loaded. What equipment makes it a ELLP? My 330 does not have leather. Now is my 330 a sports sedan, I would say YES to that. The base suspension is firmed up from previous year F30's, I have 18" rims with Performance tires, the standard seats are now the Sports seats. The steering feel is a little better than in the past, overall I have enjoyed this car. I just wish BMW would allow you to really custom build a car, I would love the M Sports Suspension without the body kit, this to included the M Steering wheel. I feel this is the only thing I'm missing from my car.

So you think manufacturers are getting away from Sport Sedans perse and more into the ELLP?

Mr_Shiftright

I think it's a combination of badge + price more than the individual options list---although we do expect an ELLP not to be spartan in any way.

kyfdx

I'm pretty sure that @Kirstie_H laid out the list.

It starts with a luxury make. So, Acura, Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Infiniti, Jaguar, Lexus, Lincoln, Mercedes, and Volvo.

So, that's the minimum to qualify.

A 3-series sedan is an ELLPS, for the purposes of this discussion.

stickguy

I would add the upcoming new smaller genesis (3 series competitor).

flightnurse

kyfdx said:

I'm pretty sure that @Kirstie_H laid out the list.

It starts with a luxury make. So, Acura, Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Infiniti, Jaguar, Lexus, Lincoln, Mercedes, and Volvo.

So, that's the minimum to qualify.

A 3-series sedan is an ELLPS, for the purposes of this discussion.

But the question is, what is Entry Level? As I wrote, my 330i MSRP was 47K, and does not have leather? What list of options or standard equipment makes it an Entry Level? If you added leather to my car the MSRP would have been close to 49K. Just because it has BMW badge makes it ELLPS?

Mr_Shiftright

It's a marketing term, it's not something quantifiable.

andres3

kyfdx said:

I'm pretty sure that @Kirstie_H laid out the list.

It starts with a luxury make. So, Acura, Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Infiniti, Jaguar, Lexus, Lincoln, Mercedes, and Volvo.

So, that's the minimum to qualify.

A 3-series sedan is an ELLPS, for the purposes of this discussion.

Volvo? Aren't they kind of like Buick? (snicker snicker).

How about the Genesis and Cadenza or K900 or whatever other name the Koreans come up with?

flightnurse

Mr_Shiftright said:

It's a marketing term, it's not something quantifiable.

I fully get it so why can't other brands be brought into conversations?

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think it's a combination of badge + price more than the individual options list---although we do expect an ELLP not to be spartan in any way.

Spartan can mean different things to different people.

Especially if you've had a feature in a car for more than a Decade, going back to something that doesn't have it will seem "outdated."

Of course, I'd imagine even the most stripped model today would seem "loaded" compared to anything from 20 years ago, for those that only buy a new car every 20 years

kyfdx

flightnurse said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

It's a marketing term, it's not something quantifiable.

I fully get it so why can't other brands be brought into conversations?

Luxury.. We decided it meant a luxury brand.

Kia: Not a luxury brand
Genesis: Not until you show me separate Genesis dealerships, that aren't adjacent to Hyundai dealerships. Until then, just a Hyundai.

Feel free to discuss the actual vehicles.

Mr_Shiftright

flightnurse said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

It's a marketing term, it's not something quantifiable.

I fully get it so why can't other brands be brought into conversations?

Well it's a consensus kind of thing. One has to set a limit somewhere--or as the old saying goes:

"If everyone is beautiful, then no one is beautiful".

Michaell

Mr_Shiftright said:

flightnurse said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

It's a marketing term, it's not something quantifiable.

I fully get it so why can't other brands be brought into conversations?

Well it's a consensus kind of thing. One has to set a limit somewhere--or as the old saying goes:

"If everyone is beautiful, then no one is beautiful".

Mr_Shiftright said:

flightnurse said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

It's a marketing term, it's not something quantifiable.

I fully get it so why can't other brands be brought into conversations?

Well it's a consensus kind of thing. One has to set a limit somewhere--or as the old saying goes:

"If everyone is beautiful, then no one is beautiful".

Yeah, then we could cover the entire automotive spectrum with just one thread here at Edmunds.

"Talk about your transportation device - sedan, coupe, wagon, SUV, CUV, truck - whatever"

(and, I'm sure I missed a few categories as well)

I get it, however - one person's definitive list means that another person's choice would be excluded.

"Near ELLPS"?
"Pseudo ELLPS"?

A year or so back, I created a thread to discuss the new compact SUV's (Trax, HR-V, etc.). Crickets.

Shifty's got one on electric vehicles - besides the two of us, I think there has been maybe one or two other unique posters who have contributed.

circlew

Then there is the 'near ellps' 2018 Kia Stinger. Nice car but no brand image as far as luxury goes.

It does look refreshing compared to some current ELLPS sedans, however.

stickguy

yup. Sometimes you get the car without the badge. and sometimes you get the badge, without the car! Up to each buyer to decide what is more important to them. The drive or the prestige (posing)

dino001

I have to honestly say, I don't care how something is called, whether it's the "right brand", or it "belongs" to some category. To me important issues are if the vehicle drives right, has right amounts of features, sufficient reliability record of the model or brand and dealerships that don't treat you like an illiterate. It just so happens that those tastes and financial abilities coincide with number of models that are called ELLPS by many.

However, if Kia, Chevrolet, or Toyota came with a vehicle that has the features, handling and styling, I would consider it, regardless if somebody else calls it ELLPS, or not. It just so happens that up to this point their current lineup is aimed at different buyer demographics, but they could change. For example, Kia came up with Stinger, which looks quite "tasty" in the first glance. Even with their legendary obnoxious dealerships (at least here in Tampa Bay) with even more annoying commercials, if I were on the market, I would probably hold my nose and at least take a look and ask for a drive. If it checked all the right boxes, I'd take it. Lower price would be just a bonus. And I don't care if Edmunds' panel of discussion board experts considers that vehicle ELLPS, or not.

stickguy

the stinger really does seem like the acid test here. Car looks to have everything required to be a playa' if (and around here too, a big if!) they can overcome the dealer experience.

Hyundai, I have multiple dealers nearby that are perfectly fine. Just as good as any Honda dealer. So the upcoming small Genesis, IMO, should not have the same stigma to overcome, if they car is as good as it seems it might be.

flightnurse

Dino do tell about your 430 GC!!

When it comes to Hyundai/Kia I think we need to be watching them. The first Gen Stinger is a looker and performs well, but isn't perfect. Give the mid life cycle and next Gen I think the Germans will have problems. For the price of my 330i, I could have bought the top of line Stinger GT and have money leftover and the V6 Stinger is quicker than a 340/440i.

On the other hand, I have fallen in love with the Volvo V90, the design is stunning, and the price is perfect and you don't see many Wagons on the road.

roadburner

My non-negotiables are RWD, ample(some would say "too much") hp, and top-shelf handling and braking- so yes, I'd at least consider a Stinger GT. It could be a bit quicker, but aside from that I would just need to drive it. As dino001 mentioned, for me the primary drawback would be the buying process and probably service as well. At least with BMW I know that I won't have a warranty claim denied because I take my car to HPDEs.

roadburner

Before I bought my M235i I also considered a Camaro SS 1LE, a Challenger SRT8, a 2013 Boss 302, a 2016 Mustang GT Premium w/Performance Package, a Lotus Elise, a 370Z NISMO, a Cayman S, and a WRX STI, so I didn't confine myself to the ELLPS market segment.
If I was buying a new car today it would almost certainly be an M2 with three pedals; If I wanted another automatic I'd likely go with a fully optioned M240i with sunroof delete.
Leasing? Maybe a Giulia TI, even though it isn't that quick.

stickguy

I just read the latest road and track last night, and they had a stinger review. They list it at 4.6 0-60, and 13 seconds 1/4 at 109 MPH. Top speed of 167. If that is not enough performance for street use, you need to take up NHRA.

roadburner

stickguy said:

I just read the latest road and track last night, and they had a stinger review. They list it at 4.6 0-60, and 13 seconds 1/4 at 109 MPH. Top speed of 167. If that is not enough performance for street use, you need to take up NHRA.

To each his own; my personal standard is a sub-thirteen second quarter mile- and my 2er just barely qualifies.. Note that I didn't say the GT was slow, only that it could be a bit quicker. The Stinger GT's performance is solidly average for its class- which isn't bad.

qbrozen

Have to remember, as far as I know, the Stinger's class is midsized. Yet magazines always seem fixated on comparing everything to the compact 3-series instead.

flightnurse

qbrozen said:

Have to remember, as far as I know, the Stinger's class is midsized. Yet magazines always seem fixated on comparing everything to the compact 3-series instead.

That is because Kia used the 3 series and its benchmark.

flightnurse

RR mentioned the Giulia TI, which won Car of the Year. I loved the one I drove, but Alfa needed to rethink their leases, for a 45K car they wanted 3K down, and payments of $550/m But today you can get that same car for min down and 420/m which is in line with BMW.

Mr_Shiftright

flightnurse said:

qbrozen said:

Have to remember, as far as I know, the Stinger's class is midsized. Yet magazines always seem fixated on comparing everything to the compact 3-series instead.

That is because Kia used the 3 series and its benchmark.

As does (did) every other automaker. BMW practically invented "sport sedan", even before they got that posh image.

andres3

stickguy said:

I just read the latest road and track last night, and they had a stinger review. They list it at 4.6 0-60, and 13 seconds 1/4 at 109 MPH. Top speed of 167. If that is not enough performance for street use, you need to take up NHRA.

Depending where you look, you might find different numbers. I found 4.2 0-60 and 12.8 quarter miles reported for my '16 TTS. Of course, my car cheats by only having 2 doors and being a coupe, so it's not a sedan, nor entry level.

dino001

flightnurse said:

Dino do tell about your 430 GC!!

When it comes to Hyundai/Kia I think we need to be watching them. The first Gen Stinger is a looker and performs well, but isn't perfect. Give the mid life cycle and next Gen I think the Germans will have problems. For the price of my 330i, I could have bought the top of line Stinger GT and have money leftover and the V6 Stinger is quicker than a 340/440i.

On the other hand, I have fallen in love with the Volvo V90, the design is stunning, and the price is perfect and you don't see many Wagons on the road.

The car is great so far. I picked it up in Munich in June, drove south to Switzerland, then southern France (Provance), swept along Cote d’Azur to Milan and back to Munich. Then picked it up in Spartanburg in late Septempebr and drove home to Tampa. Now it’s almost 9 thosand miles and perfect. Have to admit, although I miss the sound of my previous straight six, the four cylinder turbo is both quicker less thirsty by 20 percent. Even the automatic doesn’t bother me, it’s probably one of the best in the market. The electric steering, which used to be a major issue with early F3x generation, is finally fixed. It’s precise, albeit lighter than my previous 328. No longer Buick like. I think they tweaked standard 4-series, including GC to be slightly more sporty than standard 3. The standard suspension is also quite alright. I got luxury package without adaptive suspension and don’t feel like missing anything.

In other words, the car is just fine with my growing up and getting stiffer in the joints, but maintains most important aspects of the handling. And there is that rear hatch

dino001

qbrozen said:

Have to remember, as far as I know, the Stinger's class is midsized. Yet magazines always seem fixated on comparing everything to the compact 3-series instead.

3 series in no longer compact. It grew in both size and weight. It is a legitimate midsize today.

qbrozen

Current 3-series sedan is 182". 5-series is 194. Kia is 190. So definitely closer to the 5 than the 3.

circlew

I looked at a white StingerGT2 2 weeks ago. I sat it in and it had far more room than my Q50S. I mentioned that it looked like a 5'er interior to the sales person. The exterior is far more upscale that is more up to date than a 3'er, IMHO.

dino001

circlew said:

I looked at a white StingerGT2 2 weeks ago. I sat it in and it had far more room than my Q50S. I mentioned that it looked like a 5'er interior to the sales person. The exterior is far more upscale that is more up to date than a 3'er, IMHO.

So the Stinger looks like a legitimate effort from Kia. Let’s hope people will buy it, so it stays in the market. If it is 5-series size, then $50k+ sticker for fully loaded fast supercharged V6 may be ok, considering Kia always throws in decent cash incentives. Low end 2 liter starts 35k, so that’s much more pallatable and separated in price from lux and comparable to four cyl turbos from other brands, too. One knock against is the mpg on GT, when you compare it with, say BMW’s 3.0 six turbo. It souns a bit like the previous gen without much fuel asavinlg tech. It may be a positive for some.

dino001

qbrozen said:

Current 3-series sedan is 182". 5-series is 194. Kia is 190. So definitely closer to the 5 than the 3.

These are full lengths. More important would be wheel base and cabin space/legroom. Does anybody have those handy?

Mr_Shiftright

dino001 said:

circlew said:

I looked at a white StingerGT2 2 weeks ago. I sat it in and it had far more room than my Q50S. I mentioned that it looked like a 5'er interior to the sales person. The exterior is far more upscale that is more up to date than a 3'er, IMHO.

So the Stinger looks like a legitimate effort from Kia. Let’s hope people will buy it, so it stays in the market. If it is 5-series size, then $50k+ sticker for fully loaded fast supercharged V6 may be ok, considering Kia always throws in decent cash incentives. Low end 2 liter starts 35k, so that’s much more pallatable and separated in price from lux and comparable to four cyl turbos from other brands, too. One knock against is the mpg on GT, when you compare it with, say BMW’s 3.0 six turbo. It souns a bit like the previous gen without much fuel asavinlg tech. It may be a positive for some.

Sounds like the 2 liter might be the better bang for the buck.