I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

uplanderguy

I can only remember one '71 Bel Air new at the local dealer's. It was Sea Aqua, actually my favorite '71 color, with black all-vinyl interior. It sat around a looonnnngggg time. I remember it had overspray at the top edge of the "Bel Air" fender nameplate on the right side, implying some damage somewhere along the way. I don't remember a single later Bel Air than that.....not that I'd have seen every car they sold, but I was there multiple times a week then.

I don't recall a single BIscayne in those years. But from '70 on, Biscaynes weren't even shown in the brochure. They were in fleet literature though.

sda

Our neighbor in New Orleans had a series of white Bel Air sedans as company cars. I remember him driving a 69, 71, and 73. All were equipped similarly. Small V8, auto, ac, am radio, basic wheels, black wall tires. The typical company car.

andre1969

Good lord, that Biscayne is spartan inside! I can't imagine too many non-fleet buyers wanting something like that, but I guess there was still some market for people who just wanted a cheap, basic big car.

FWIW, base prices that year were as follows...
Biscayne 4-door 6-cyl: $3,096
Bel Air 4-door 6-cyl: $3,233
Impala 4-door 6-cyl: $3,391.

Adjusting for inflation, that $295 spread between the Biscayne and Impala would be around $2,236, so perhaps that was some incentive.

It's also not surprising, that 6-cyl engines were ultimately dropped from these behemoths. In '71, sales were:
Biscayne 6-cyl/V8: 5,846/18,463
Bel Air 6/V8: 3,452/38,534
Impala 4-door 6/V8: 1,606/135,304
Impala hardtop coupe 6/V8: 939/52,952 (plus another 139,437 V8-only Customs)
And, of course, there was the Impala Sport Sedan (4-door hardtop) that was V8 only and good for another 140,300.

uplanderguy

andre, we've discussed this before, but while I like the '72 big Chevy's front-end styling best of that whole run, and I particularly like the '72 Impala's seat styling, I like the '71's wide rocker trim (on Impalas), and I do like the silver-painted wheels, a one-year-thing.

I remember about halfways through the '71 model run, Chevy advertising, "Turbo-Hydramatic and Power Steering Now Standard on Full-Size V8's!". I then remember seeing window stickers where all of a sudden, the base price of the car was about $300 more than before. Wow, how charitable!

That Biscayne has carpeting. I think that started happening earlier than '71 on Biscaynes. I'd expect rubber flooring. I know from personal experience that in '73, both the base Nova and Chevelle Deluxe had rubber flooring inside.

andre1969

Yeah, the '72 will always be my favorite, of the '71-76 run, but I'd say the '71 is still an excellent consolation prize! I like them both, in their own way. The '71, with its bolder grille, seems a bit Cadillac-ish, and expensive-looking for its price class. The '72's lower, more toned-down grille makes the car seem more lightweight and sporty. Well, for this size of car, at least!

I forget what the last year was, that all three low-priced cars still offered a 6-cyl. But, in a masochistic sort of way, I'd be curious to see a comparison test between (among?) a full-sized 6-cyl Chevy, Ford, and Plymouth.

My guess is the Chevy would have been the easiest to live with. Ford's 6-cyl engines just seemed to choke down extra bad with emissions controls. And I'd think the 225 slant six would just be too small, and the extra cubes of the Chevy 250 would give it a slight advantage. Although, the slant six had a long stroke, and I think that tends to help out with low end torque, so that might have offset the displacement shortcoming a bit?

Another one I'd be curious about, is the '76 LeSabres that had the 231 V6 in them. I'd imagine that must have been good for some laughs in the acceleration department. And probably some white knuckles, if you had to merge on the highway.

stickguy

but man, look how easy that engine is to work on!

my first car was a well worn (had the lightweight racing bodywork package!) '67 Camaro with a straight 6. You could literally stand in the engine bay next to it if you wanted to. I think yanking it out would take about 15 minutes using nothing but a screwdriver and crescent wrench.

explorerx4

Yesterday I saw a black Square Bird. Body looked good but it was dog tracking a bit.

fintail

3 speed? My eyes are drawn to that 62 Mercury convertible beside it.

I wonder if a lot of rental cars back then were also the basic engine option (but likely with automatic and probably air).

uplanderguy said:

Just following up on my earlier post about looking online to see big early '70's Impalas with sixes, and I couldn't find a one. Pretty sure I remember seeing a '71 Sport Coupe with six some time back online, and also a black '73 Bel Air six with stick, but can't find either now.

Did find a couple BIscaynes. Here's a '71. Gets authenticity points for the one-year-only silver-painted wheels. Boy, is that interior dismal. You can see the straight-stick shifter in the interior pic

uplanderguy

I posted this ad in the 'Postwar Studebakers' board, but I think it's of general interest. I love the Gran Turismo Hawk there. And amazing/sad to me that US Steel is no longer an American-owned company.

Fintail posted there, a sobering fact....the '62 Studebaker, Ford, and Plymouth are as old now as the curved-dash Olds in the ad was then!

uplanderguy

RE.: '76 LeSabre 231 V6--I would bet that's almost as dismal as those earlier '70's big Chevys with 250, I dunno. I do remember seeing at least a couple of those Buicks, as I seem to remember they put a little chrome "V6" emblem on the front fenders where the V8 cars were blank there. Boy, that's a switch!

Not sure what year that engine became even-firing, but my sister and husband's '75 Century Special, bought new, was IMHO absolutely miserable with that engine. I'm not talking speed necessarily, but the rough idle was almost embarrassing in a car that was otherwise as nice as that.

imidazol97

But that car and engine gave great cruise mileage.
Later that 231 became the 3.8 and then 3800 Series I and II and III. That read a great engine.

andre1969

Yeah, it's funny how the 231 managed to be both one of GM's worst engines, and then one of their best!
From what I've heard, the turnaround year was 1985. That year, they used the turbo block as the basis for all applications, and also redesigned it for better oil flow. The '84 and earlier versions had a lot of narrow passages and right angles that were easily clogged, and I've heard jokes that the only way you could properly lubricate a 231 was to drive the car down a bad enough road and hope all the bouncing splashed the oil into all the right places! Although, I dunno if that's what they mean by "Splash Lubrication."

Supposedly it was common for them to fail between 70-90,000 miles, although I suspect it's one of those instances where if you were meticulous with maintenance, and didn't abuse it, even the older, weaker designs would last. At least, whenever I've brought up all the issues with the old 231 in other forums, almost inevitably someone would come out of the woodwork to tell me about some old 1970-whatever that lasted to 200K miles or whatever.

I suppose it can happen, though. After all, the 2.7 in my 2000 Intrepid was running just fine when it got totaled at around 150,000 miles. The engine hadn't been out long enough to develop a bad reputation when I bought my car, but a few years later, I started hearing horror stories about what a turd that engine was supposed to be.

FWIW, the 231 in my '82 Cutlass Supreme started to crap out around 73,000 miles, but was still running when I sold the car. However, it was also about 11 years old, and had 61,000 miles when I bought it, for $800, so at that point I could probably blame the previous owner, moreso than GM, for that car's quality.

The supercharged 231 in my 2000 Park Ave never gave me any trouble, although the rest of the car did. And the regular 200 hp 231 in my Dad's '03 Regal never gave any issues, other than a slow leak in the plastic intake manifold, that never got bad enough to replace. With those two newer cars, it was basically everything else falling apart around the engine, but not the engine itself!

One thing I have wondered...Buick still had that smaller 3.0/181 V6 in 1985. I wonder if that got the beefed up/improved lubrication treatment like the 3.8 did, or if it was left alone? There had also been the 4.1/252 V6, but it was dropped after 1984.

imidazol97

IIRC the early 3.8 had wear on the cover plate where the gears for the oil pump rubbed.
That wear meant less efficiency of the oil pump and lower pressure. Replace the cover
and the gears, and I believe there was an "improved" version, and you were home free.

explorerx4

This car looks great but not sure it's really is that nice.
Left rear repair is noticeable to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GorM0blNtMc

uplanderguy

For whatever reason, historical posts about the old Janesville, WI "Chevy" plant show up on my FB feed. Our '77 Impala coupe was built there.

I thought this was interesting and is from there....'73 Bel Air sedan followed by a Catalina Safari on the line.

texases

Lunch tables next to the assembly line. Don’t think you’d see that today.

fintail

And picnic tables at that.

If any of those guys are still around, they are likely all over 100 years old now.

explorerx4

They knew if they let those guys out the door they would be going to the local bar for lunch.

ab348

When I got the tour of GM’s Olds Main assembly in Lansing in 1997, it looked a lot like that down to the picnic tables. That got torn down maybe 15 years ago. It was ancient when I was there.

uplanderguy

Spotted Friday evening in a restaurant lot. '86 or '87 El Camino, based on the steering wheel and instrument panel that I know were used in '86 and '87 Monte Carlos.

Has "SS" labeling, but I don't know enough about these to know if that's for real or not. Lots of bright trim for an "SS" it sorta seems. Has a huge, ridiculous hood scoop with "COWL INDUCTION" labelling, which I KNOW is incorrect for the car, LOL.

I've seen those wheels elsewhere, but not a fan.

I think the basic styling is pleasing, and I always thought it was funny that in '78, the wheelbase actually went up an inch.

stickguy

I always liked that generation El Camino. a nice mild restomod one would be fun to have.

fintail

I think those wheels might be from a mid 90s Astro van, oddly enough

uplanderguy

fin, I think you're right.

uplanderguy

Smitten with this '79 Eldo seen on FB today. I wouldn't own black-on-black, but it sure looks nice. 13K mile car supposedly. The extra emblem on the decklid appears to be from a dealer; stuff like that makes my eyes twitch. But I love the car overall. One thing I do remember about these cars back when I first saw them, was how narrow the center armrest was, LOL. Still, I'd take it a hundred times over a '78 Eldorado.

ab348

One thing I didn’t care for on that generation of GM personal luxury front-drivers was that tall flat-slab dashboard.

sda

https://youtu.be/PxDVSiQ9_to?si=VvkqmHo13DkACiWW. Paging @andre1969

uplanderguy

Passed 15 mins ago in town, in wet weather and salt on the roads, a clean black ‘91 Caprice Classic sedan I’ve never seen before. Clean whitewalls even.

I can hardly believe that 1991 was 33 years ago.

uplanderguy

Ab, I agree about the tall instrument panels in all three of those cars too. I moan about that in late '70's big FoMoCo products as well.

imidazol97

I keep seeing an occasional GM car in great, sometimes mint, condition from years ago being driven.

I suspect these are cars from GM and related suppliers workers who bought with their discounts.
They have been in their garage for decades, often as a second car. Now the owners have passed or
moved to the great state of Florida, and those cars have moved to new owners.

uplanderguy

When I see a car like the Caprice I saw, I immediately think, "Someone's driving Grandpa's or Grandma's old car".

fintail

I wonder if the extra badge on the Eldo is from Potamkin:

https://youtu.be/SVBPCy0hk-I?si=uQ3VpY8DdvziNH4Z

xwesx

ab348 said:

One thing I didn’t care for on that generation of GM personal luxury front-drivers was that tall flat-slab dashboard.

Agreed; but that burled wood trim sure looks nice against the otherwise-all-black interior!

xwesx

This one is sure obscure:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1987-pontiac-tojan-2/

stickguy

never heard of that before. odd.

and it got me down the rabbit hole to this beauty. Price as expected is eye watering. But the really interesting thing to me is that even in 1970, on a fairly heavy car with that monster of a motor (the Hemi), you still go drum brakes all around standard. And someone actually order this car with them. That must be spooky in the wet.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1970-dodge-challenger-r-t-18/

xwesx

My grandfather had a military friend who completed a ground-up restoration on one of these things back in 1993. He brought it by the office to show it off, as they worked together at the base prior to my grandfather's retirement a couple years prior.

It looked identical to this! Truly a beautiful car.

uplanderguy

That Potamkin ad is so cheesy, it's great!

andre1969

I did a double take at that $189/mo lease deal for the '79 Eldorado. That actually seemed kind of cheap to me, but then I remembered my Mom's mortgage back then, was $389/mo!

Adjusting for inflation though, that Eldorado's lease comes out to around $799/mo in today's dollars, which honestly doesn't sound THAT bad. For comparison, the payment on my Charger was $777/mo, although I know it's not a direct comparison, doing a short term lease to a 6-year car payment.

Still, drive a Caddy, for the price of a Dodge! Although, working backwards, the ~$54K my Dodge ended up costing would be around $12,750 or so back in 1979...which was about the entry point for a stripped-down Caddy. I couldn't see any Dodges being that much in '79, although maybe if you went hog wild, you could get a Magnum XE or St. Regis up to around $10K if you went hog wild?

kyfdx

48 month loans on my (relatively cheap) new vehicles:

1977: $109/mo
1982: $159/mo

uplanderguy

"Drive a Caddy, for the price of a Dodge".

I just saw this video this morning, from Mrs. Potamkin. "Over $6,000 for a Dodge Monaco or Ford LTD?", LOL.

1977 is the commercial date.

Mrs. P., first new '77 Caprice Classic coupe our hometown dealer got in, and it was fully loaded, had a sticker of $7,700.

But Potamkin owned other GM dealerships, so Mrs. P's consternation left out GM product, LOL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT5Z80AD0Z4

fintail

Here's another Potamkin ad with charming Luba as the spokeswoman, these do look like base cars with those disc wheel covers, and I bet they were 6cyl:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty5wG-PlIqA

Notice no bustleback, as they were much more expensive.

uplanderguy

I've grown to appreciate the regular wheel covers, although of course back then wire was the way to go. I did always think GM did the factory wires better than the rest. Smallish centers, long and numerous spokes.

On FB this morning, after looking at some Potamkin ads, I saw that someone wrote that their Dad bought a late '70's (I think) new Caddy from them, at a good price. He said though that you sometimes had to book a service appointment weeks out.

kyfdx

I thought the bustleback was only on the Seville?

fintail

uplanderguy said:

"Drive a Caddy, for the price of a Dodge".

I just saw this video this morning, from Mrs. Potamkin. "Over $6,000 for a Dodge Monaco or Ford LTD?", LOL.

1977 is the commercial date.

Mrs. P., first new '77 Caprice Classic coupe our hometown dealer got in, and it was fully loaded, had a sticker of $7,700.

But Potamkin owned other GM dealerships, so Mrs. P's consternation left out GM product, LOL.

I have to imagine those pre-downsized dinosaurs depreciated like week old bread when the downsized models appeared. That's roughly the era when my parents bought my mom's big Bird - it was a not too old low mileage used car, but it depreciated fiercely, and was a screaming bargain in their eyes.

uplanderguy

When I was in college, in small-town, somewhat-remote Clarion, PA, near Cook Forest State Park, I was in the small downtown area and saw a new, black '79 Eldorado coupe with no vinyl top. I was admiring it when the owner came out. I told him I really liked it. He introduced himself as Mr. Barrett, owner of Barrett Cadillac in Youngstown, OH. We always got the Youngstown Sunday paper when I was growing up at home and I recognized the name immediately. I told him that and he told me to stop on in and look at cars anytime there. At the time, I thought that was nice. My small hometown Chevy dealer also was Cadillac, but they were not common in inventory, ever. Whenever a new Caddy would show up on the lot, my Dad would say, "Doctor must've ordered one". I do remember two new '76 convertibles there, and I do recall one bustleback '80 there. Fall of '80 I moved to NE OH with my job.

Ironically, the Chevy dealer in Clarion was also a Caddy dealer. I remember going there with a friend and sitting in a '79 or '80 Eldo in the showroom, trying out the door handle from the back seat, LOL.

I've mentioned this before, but I do think it's funny, yet arrogant, that I recall a newspaper ad my hometown dealer ran that said:
DART
Chevrolet
THERE'S REALLY NOTHING IN-BETWEEN!
Cadillac

fintail

kyfdx said:

I thought the bustleback was only on the Seville?

Yep. I think in 1980 it based around 20K, it was top of the line.

fintail

uplanderguy said:

I've grown to appreciate the regular wheel covers, although of course back then wire was the way to go. I did always think GM did the factory wires better than the rest. Smallish centers, long and numerous spokes.

On FB this morning, after looking at some Potamkin ads, I saw that someone wrote that their Dad bought a late '70's (I think) new Caddy from them, at a good price. He said though that you sometimes had to book a service appointment weeks out.

I dislike fake wire wheelcovers, I think the discs look better too. I remember seeing a disc CdV on a 1980 episode of TPiR, I think it was a 6 cyl car too. Real wire wheels, which were aftermarket if not stock, would be cool but a maintenance headache.

I know there was an actual styled wheel option on Eldo and Seville, a pretty decent looking one too. That would be a must on my ideal spec bustleback (80-81 Elegante, loaded in the right colors etc).

kyfdx

My aunt's '78 DeVille had the wire covers. At the time, I didn't hate them.

Now, the yellow plaid cloth interior?

andre1969

I'm not a huge fan of fake wire wheel covers either, but I think GM did a relatively good job on them. At least, in my mind I'm thinking of my Grandmom's '85 LeSabre. They had a somewhat substantial, and intricate design, and other than the center caps didn't really seem like they stuck out too far. In contrast, the ones on my '79 5th Ave, in my opinion looked kind of cheap, and like something like you'd get at Pep Boys or Autozone!

On the one in the video that SDA posted, I don't think they look too bad, but in person, I just didn't like them at all. I think it was just something about the size/shape of that center cap, and it seemed like the whole assembly jutted out a bit too far.

I seem to recall a wire hubcap on some of the RWD Cadillacs back then, that actually seemed flat, almost recessed, and even though you could tell it was fake, I thought it looked nice. This might be what I'm thinking of, but looking at it now, I don't find it quite as attractive as I remember... Or, this might just be a bad angle/picture.

fintail

Those flat ones with a larger disc at center look better than the ones that stuck out more, always kind of screamed "K-Mart" to me.

Here are the "wheels" on a Seville I was thinking of (this is a lovely car but dearly needs whitewalls):



And a different wheel, I assume a wheel and not a cap:

fintail

Here's the TPiR car. I guess a V6 as I don't see any badging on the side. It has basic looking wheelcovers, but was described as having some options (not sure if any were standard) - cabriolet top, leather, rear defrost, tilt/tele, striping, theft deterrent, accent striping, cruise, AM/FM stereo, CA emissions. In a showcase, so no price given.

This episode aired September 26, 1980 - the twilight of disco, as shown by the Saturday Night Fever showcase theme.