I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

uplanderguy

I liked the looks of the '74 Laguna, but wish it had the big quarter window. And what's an "S-3"?

When I lived in Norcross, GA from '83 to '85, a guy in my apartment complex had a maroon with white stripes and top, '74 Laguna S-3, 454 with 4-speed, bone-stock looking. It was sharp and had the cloth swivel buckets. I asked to sit in it once and had gum on the back of my pants. I'm thinking I had been cleaning up my Monte Carlo in the parking lot. Yes, it got on his driver's seat. He handled it a lot better than I would have.

I bet my hometown dealer (Greenville, PA) only got in a couple of the slope-nosed Lagunas. I can only specifically remember seeing a silver one there, and it was in-and-out quickly so I assume it was a customer order.

I could never stand that thick steering wheel with four spokes that was used on Vega GT's, Monza 2+2's, Camaros, and S-3's. They were later used on the bottom-of-the-barrel Cavalier Cadet models, and those upper spokes hid the gauges on Camaros, Vegas, and Monzas.

andre1969

From looking it up on Wikipedia, I think the car was called simply "Laguna" for '73, and then "Laguna S3" for '74-76. I guess the S3 made it sound more exotic? Or maybe it was some internal ordering code, like "F41" "FE3" or whatever.

Also, I'm too lazy to go back now and look it up, but I think the sedan and wagon versions were only offered in 1973 and then dropped, leaving just the coupe to carry on for '74-76.

As for those swivel seats, they're neat to look at, but I don't think they're very comfortable. I sat in a Cutlass that was for sale a few years ago, and from what I remember, the shape of them forced me into sort of a slumping position, with no lower back support. They also weren't power adjusted, and didn't go back far enough for me to be comfortable. IIRC, they were also a bit thinly padded.

lemko

The S-3 is a former Navy aircraft that was used to detect enemy submarines, but I doubt that's what Chevrolet had in mind when they named the car.

Michaell

lemko said:

The S-3 is a former Navy aircraft that was used to detect enemy submarines, but I doubt that's what Chevrolet had in mind when they named the car.

The Lockheed S-3 Viking was produced from 1974-1978. A few examples are still being used at the Naval Air Station in my home town in CA.

uplanderguy

Yes, the Laguna was sort-of the 'Malibu Classic' for '73, and offered in all bodystyles. In '74, it became the "S-3" and sort-of replaced the previous year's "SS" and was available only in coupe.

The supposed big advantage of those swivel seats was that they gave much-more access to the rear seat, but I don't think they even looked that great. Other than the Chevelle and Monte Carlo, only the Cutlass S and 4-4-2 offered them. Even the Cutlass Supreme did not.

andre1969

Here's something that surprised me, about the '73 Chevelle versus the '68-72...apparently they were bigger inside in most dimensions. According to Wikipedia, at least...

"Interior roominess of the '73 Chevelle was improved, particularly in the rear. Headroom was up slightly and shoulder room gains were by 1.6 inches (41 mm). Rear seat legroom was up 3.5 inches (89 mm) in sedans. Another was a 15.3-cubic-foot (430 L) luggage capacity, an increase of 2.5 cubic feet (71 L) over 1972 models."

I knew the '73 models had more shoulder room (up front at least), and a bit more legroom up front (at least, i fit more comfortably in them), but was surprised about the other dimensions, especially rear seat legroom in the sedan and trunk volume. I would have figured that headroom, as well as trunk volume, would have gone down, because of the swoopier body. Unless that was just an optical illusion.

Consumer Guide said that the '73 intermediates were the last domestic midsized cars designed in the classic American philosophy of "Big on the outside, small on the inside, heavy, posh, and thirsty". Overall though, I think they stacked up pretty well compared to their Ford and Mopar competition.

uplanderguy

My Dad liked Chevelles, and had lollygagged about trading our '67 in on a '71 or '72 Sport Coupe, which he liked a lot. I had high hopes for the '73's. When they came out, my Dad didn't like them at all--particularly the big front bumper and the two-door's rear windows that didn't go down. He bought a Nova instead. On the other hand, I liked the '73 Chevelles and actually even preferred the big-bumper Malibu over the Laguna (I didn't like the body-color rear bumper on the Laguna). I would have had to have a mid-year Malibu though, with the bumper filler body-color instead of gray/silver as they all started at the beginning of the model year. The Laguna's interior was nicer and sure seemed to hold up better over the years than the Malibu's--seat trim I mean, that is. I think the Chevelles drove nicely considering they were larger than the '72, and were quieter. Somewhere in the '74/'75 era, I remember Consumer Reports saying that "...the Chevelle inspired driver confidence". I'd agree with that. My sister and then-husband had a new '73 Chevelle Deluxe six-cylinder wagon! Talk about slow!

fintail

Must have been 50K Capris sold in the US rather than 500K? Even 50K seems optimistic, but I bet they just dissolved in the rust belt. Even out here, they are a real rarity.

I think the Mustang II fastback wasn't bad looking - not like an original Mustang fastback, but for the time, it could have been worse. I always remember the one in "Starman".

kyfdx

fintail said:

Must have been 50K Capris sold in the US rather than 500K? Even 50K seems optimistic, but I bet they just dissolved in the rust belt. Even out here, they are a real rarity.

I think the Mustang II fastback wasn't bad looking - not like an original Mustang fastback, but for the time, it could have been worse. I always remember the one in "Starman".

Nope..pretty sure it was 500,000.... They sold over 100,000 the year the V-6 came out..

texases

Those Capris were pretty popular for a while. College roommate had one (the German one, not the Mustang clone). It had lots of valve noise (2.0l OHC). I offered to have a look...uh-oh, the cam followers were worn 1/4", the cam itself also worn. I put the cover back on, said 'good luck'...

kyfdx

The first year, 1.6L only... then, they started offering the 2.0L Pinto engine, which was popular (30% increase in power).. After the '74 strangulation regulations hit, they started offering a V-6, as well... That's when sales really took off..

uplanderguy

Wasn't it only the wagon in which one could get a V6?

uplanderguy

Capris were popular and I'm pretty sure they were widely advertised for something like $2,895.00--they were in every magazine in the '70's it seemed, and were called "The Sexy European".

texases

The wagon? Capri?

omarman

texases said:

The wagon? Capri?

I think there's some Pinto/Capri crosstalk confusion because they shared some of the same engines including the 2.8 V6. My cousin and his wife ordered a new Pinto hatchback in 1974 and specifically asked for the biggest engine available which was the 2.3 four cyl. After ordering it my cousin was a bit disappointed when he learned that the V6 was available - but only if you ordered the wagon. The V6 option was later available for all Pinto variants a couple years later. As for my cousin's car, it was all white and developed a small but nasty dark rusty spot on the driver's door within 2 months of delivery. I still remember him showing me how small the rust spot was but how it left a rusty streak across the whole door every time it got wet. The dealer body shop took car of it and they traded it in on a new Bronco in 1978.

One more thing about the white Pinto. It was pretty bad for stalling after a cold start up. Even though I hear people say, "They all did back then" I honestly don't remember it that way. I recall more problems with "hesitation" or surging until the engine warmed up. Before catalytic converters became prominent in 1975, I must have driven at least 4 or 5 new or nearly new cars during 1973 to 1974 (and was a passenger in many more) but none of them died out like my cousin's Pinto.

uplanderguy

Oh, earlier the talk had been about Pinto Runabouts and I saw "Pinto four" being mentioned.

I mentioned $2,895 as the oft-advertised price of a Capri, but truth be told, I remember it being $2,395. I'm doubting myself though, as that seems too low for a fairly-well-contented small car, even back then.

kyfdx

uplanderguy said:

Oh, earlier the talk had been about Pinto Runabouts and I saw "Pinto four" being mentioned.

I mentioned $2,895 as the oft-advertised price of a Capri, but truth be told, I remember it being $2,395. I'm doubting myself though, as that seems too low for a fairly-well-contented small car, even back then.

I think $2395 was probably correct for the first year..

fintail

500K Capris is astounding to think about. German Fords didn't have good luck in the US, not designed for American roads and driving styles, perhaps. Capris and Fiestas are almost extinct, both Merkurs are heading there. I suppose the current Fiesta and Focus have a lot of Euro DNA and are doing well.

Pinto, like its competitor the Vega, looked better in wagon form. A Cruising Wagon would be cool in a weird way. I remember looking at a couple with my dad, as used cars in the 80s - he wanted to pick one up and use in his metal detector hobby, I think, but my mother nixed the idea.

kyfdx

It's not such a big number, when you consider that BMW, Audi, Toyota, Honda and Datsun probably didn't sell that many cars, in total, over the same time period.. The Big 3 had such a large market share that almost anything at a low price would sell in huge numbers.. Other than British Leyland and VWs, imports weren't even on average person's radar in the early '70s..

lemko

Check out this Euro-Spec Park Avenue!

andre1969

kyfdx said:

It's not such a big number, when you consider that BMW, Audi, Toyota, Honda and Datsun probably didn't sell that many cars, in total, over the same time period.. The Big 3 had such a large market share that almost anything at a low price would sell in huge numbers.. Other than British Leyland and VWs, imports weren't even on average person's radar in the early '70s..

I remember reading that for model year 1974, BMW sold about 40,000 cars in the United States, and that was their best year up to that point. In contrast, Cadillac sold about 160,000 units. Still 4x BMW's volume, but it was one of their worst years in awhile, thanks to the oil embargo. It made Cadillac's top brass sit up and take notice, even if BMW wasn't really what most would think of as a luxury brand at the time.

I would imagine though, that many of those brands would have sold over 500K units over the 1971-78 timeframe. Not so much in 1971-73, but once the oil embargo hit, people sat up and took notice. Here in the DC area, it seemed like Datsun especially was very popular. Toyota, too. Honda, not so much, but they only offered the Civic and Accord back then. And the Accord wasn't exactly cheap. The 1976 model started at $3995, which is probably about what a midsized Malibu or LeMans started at.

On the subject of German Fords, I remember the Fiesta being really common around these parts, for awhile. I remember our neighbors had one. Not sure of the year, but it was orange (sometimes it's easy to forget they came in any other color), and even by 1985, when they moved in, it was pretty rusty and beat-up. It also had a 4x4 bolted to the back, to pass as a rear bumper.

Now that I think about it, in the early 90's, I remember the Dad of one of my friends using lumber to make a bumper for a late 70's/early 80's Subaru hardtop coupe...GL or whatever they called it.

ab348

kyfdx said:

It's not such a big number, when you consider that BMW, Audi, Toyota, Honda and Datsun probably didn't sell that many cars, in total, over the same time period.. The Big 3 had such a large market share that almost anything at a low price would sell in huge numbers.. Other than British Leyland and VWs, imports weren't even on average person's radar in the early '70s..

I remember a cover of Business Week magazine in 1979 that had an image of a speedometer that showed market share. The needle was approaching 60 (for GM's 60% share) and the headline was something along the lines of whether GM needed to be broken up. This was shortly after the FWD X-cars were introduced and were selling like crazy. Amazing to look back on that now.

andre1969 said:

On the subject of German Fords, I remember the Fiesta being really common around these parts, for awhile. I remember our neighbors had one. Not sure of the year, but it was orange (sometimes it's easy to forget they came in any other color), and even by 1985, when they moved in, it was pretty rusty and beat-up. It also had a 4x4 bolted to the back, to pass as a rear bumper.

The ones I remember from around here were all bright yellow. They were bad rusters, and noisy little buzzbombs even when new.

fintail

I took this pic in Cologne Germany:

lemko said:

Check out this Euro-Spec Park Avenue!

fintail

Yeah, I guess over many years, it isn't too crazy - especially for a cheaper car. Maybe just seems amazing to me, based on how few are left.

Every blue moon or so, I see a Fiesta around here. I remember a friend's mother had one when I was little, maybe in 1st grade. I liked it, the ride reminded me of what I thought a rally car would be like.

kyfdx said:

It's not such a big number, when you consider that BMW, Audi, Toyota, Honda and Datsun probably didn't sell that many cars, in total, over the same time period.. The Big 3 had such a large market share that almost anything at a low price would sell in huge numbers.. Other than British Leyland and VWs, imports weren't even on average person's radar in the early '70s..

Mr_Shiftright

The 1.6L were pretty doggy but that little Kent 4-banger engine was sturdy. The Pinto 2.0L helped the car--the 2.3 was kind of a wash because the Capri got heavier and heavier as the years went on --the big deal was the 2.6L V6 and the later 2.8L (a better engine).

Ford gave the Capri to Mercury dealers because the car made the Pinto look so bad, side by side.

lemko

fintail said:

I took this pic in Cologne Germany:

lemko said:

Check out this Euro-Spec Park Avenue!

There's a black Park Ave with those taillamps.

andre1969

ab348 said:

I remember a cover of Business Week magazine in 1979 that had an image of a speedometer that showed market share. The needle was approaching 60 (for GM's 60% share) and the headline was something along the lines of whether GM needed to be broken up. This was shortly after the FWD X-cars were introduced and were selling like crazy. Amazing to look back on that now.

GM's share of the market hit something like 57.3% for 1979 as a whole. However, that doesn't paint the complete picture. In those days, they didn't count truck production in those figures. They also didn't include import models. So that 57.3% doesn't consider anything classified as a truck. And, it doesn't take into consideration import brands like Honda, Toyota, Nissan, VW, or any captive imports like the Dodge Colt, Ford Fiesta, etc.

Still, GM was definitely a force to be reckoned with. By 1983, they peaked out with about 62% of that domestic-only car market. Chevy was #1, and both Olds AND Buick outsold Ford. Pontiac was GM's only sore spot in that timeframe, and it dropped to 6th place, ousted by Mercury.

Even by 1985, when the economy was running strong again, 7 of the top 10 car spots were held by GM. Chevy had 3 (Caprice/Impala, counted as one car by this time, Celebrity, and Cavalier. Olds had 3 (Cutlass Ciera, Cutlass Supreme, and Delta 88). Buick had one, the Century. The other three spots in the Top Ten were held by the Ford Escort, Tempo, and the one foreign entry was the Datsun/Nissan Sentra.

That model lineup really reinforces just how strong GM still was. The only non-GM entries were pretty much cheap, bargain-basement cars. But in GM's case, with the exception of the Cavalier, the rest of them were more traditional, expensive, mid- and full-sized cars.

Of course, that would change pretty quickly. I always thought of 1985 as the end of GM's golden era. Change was definitely in the air, as Ford and Chrysler made a comeback, and GM didn't do so hot with their second wave of downsizing. And, around that time, the Japanese cars started getting bigger, going head to head with the domestics in more and more segments.

fintail

Today spotted a Mazda Millenia - let's give our nice new car a name that will be amusingly obsolete in a few years. Also, a nice looking W123.

berri

Now that's one I had totally forgotten about. Mazda actually made some neat vehicles over the years.

stickguy

they always had nice cars, but a weak dealer network.

andys120

fintail said:

I took this pic in Cologne Germany:

lemko said:

Check out this Euro-Spec Park Avenue!

The Buick is the only one that's not a hatchback or wagon even though two premium makes are represented.

andre1969

One thing that really strikes me about that Buick is how dainty it appears to be...much smaller than its dimensions would suggest. The '91-96 Park Ave was on a 110.8" wb, and 205.9" long, and 74.1" wide. Part of it is simply the perspective of that picture, but IMO it doesn't look that much bigger than the wagon behind it.

Every once in a blue moon, I'll still see that generation of Park Ave locally. They really look small, especially compared to the '97-05 generation, like what I have. FWIW, mine isn't *that* much bigger...113.8" wb, 206.8" long, 74.7" wide. But, it just seems like they puffed up the car, to fill out those dimensions more. Maybe the '91-96 is more tapered up front or in back, or something.

uplanderguy

I seem to remember your generation being a good bit taller than the previous one too.

andre1969

Yeah...looks like 57.4" for mine, 55.1" for the '91-96. For comparison though, the current LaCrosse comes in at 59.2"

isellhondas

I saw something strange yesterday.

A 1968 Buick Special, base model four door that looked like it had been in storage for 40 years.

In California there was a chain of tire stores. Winston Tires. They may have been in other states too.

In the 70's for a time dual stripe whitewalls were in style and Winston would put a small "W" in the whitewall area. I never like those.

Well, this Buick had a set of those on it!

Those tires HAD to be 35 years old!

berri

spotted a Mazda Millenia


Last night I was thinking, didn't that Millenia have a Miller - Something cycle engine and perhaps a supercharger? Don't remember much about it, but at the time there was talk that this concept would perhaps revolutionize drivetrains. Of course the same was said of the Wankel Rotary that Mazda was early into. Interesting company really.

Michaell

berri said:

spotted a Mazda Millenia


Last night I was thinking, didn't that Millenia have a Miller - Something cycle engine and perhaps a supercharger? Don't remember much about it, but at the time there was talk that this concept would perhaps revolutionize drivetrains. Of course the same was said of the Wankel Rotary that Mazda was early into. Interesting company really.

Yes, the Millenia S had the Miller-cycle engine. Don't remember what made it so special.

The Millenia was supposed to be Mazda's first car in their new luxury brand (Amati?), but they wised up and scrapped that plan

berri

I think it was something about performance and fuel economy combined, but obviously it either didn't work out, or cost too much for the mass market makers.

Michaell

berri said:

I think it was something about performance and fuel economy combined, but obviously it either didn't work out, or cost too much for the mass market makers.

Here is some light reading material:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_cycle

andre1969

There was a guy at work, in the warehouse building, who had a Mazda Millenia. However, he didn't have it long. I forget what the issues were with it, but he got rid of it. His previous car was, of all things, a 1975 Buick Electra 4-door hardtop! Must have been a culture shock, when he made that change.

roadburner

andre1969 said:

There was a guy at work, in the warehouse building, who had a Mazda Millenia. However, he didn't have it long. I forget what the issues were with it, but he got rid of it. His previous car was, of all things, a 1975 Buick Electra 4-door hardtop! Must have been a culture shock, when he made that change.

He probably thought the power steering was defective since it required using more than your pinkie finger to turn the wheel...

lemko

I spotted a really obscure car - a light blue late 1960s / early 1970s Russian Zhiguli on Philmont road in NE Philly.

stickguy

I think some of the hybrids (Prius maybe?) use the Miller cycle. Not sure why.

fintail

Saw 2(!)x MB W116 today, Acura Vigor, early soft top Blazer.

berri

I'm thinking that short-lived Vigor had a 5 banger engine?

kyfdx

berri said:

I'm thinking that short-lived Vigor had a 5 banger engine?

It did.. '92-'94.. We had a '94 GS (our first leased car)

172 HP, I think..

lemko

Bad picture, but dig this old ad for the FWD C-body Park Avenue. This looks like my old ride!

uplanderguy

I still like the lines and proportions of those cars...pretty revolutionary for the time. It's one of those rare instances where I liked the Olds (Ninety-Eight) better than the Buick or Cadillac, though. The two-doors in both makes were obscure, and with good reason.

ab348

A shame the transmissions were so awful.

A friend had a Park Avenue of this vintage for several years, a very nice car. The main computer under the dash was flaky though and needed to be removed from its normal spot and placed on the passenger side floor to give it cooling air. Replacement was worth about half the value of the car.

andre1969

That generation of Electra, 98, and DeVille did have an efficient, no-nonsense look about them. They also gave up very little in passenger space, despite being about two feet shorter than the big C-bodies they replaced. It was mainly shoulder room, where they were cut from around 61" to around 59". That made them narrower than the "true" full-sized cars of the era, like the B-bodies and Ford Panthers, but still wider than any midsized car on the market at the time. The big loss was in trunk space, where they went from around 21 cubic feet to about 15.7, which is pretty notable. Still, it was fairly well shaped, as I recall.

These downsized C-bodies were pretty popular for their first couple of years. However, 1985 was an extra long year. They were supposed to come out as '84 models, but GM had to push back a bit, because the transverse 4-speed automatic wasn't quite ready yet. I think they ended up coming out in April of '84. After a few years, sales of the Electra and Ninety-Eight in particular, fell off, although the DeVille remained a strong seller.