I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

ab348

imidazol97 said:

On that chart, the word "poly" is used several times with the blue tone colors. What did they mean
by "poly"? Was it polyurethane? Polynesian?

Polychromatic, I think. I found this:

"Flakes have been around for decades, but it wasn’t until the 1950s that Alcoa developed an aluminum flake for use in automotive paints. These flakes were brighter, larger and more similar in size to each other than the previous offerings. Stylists at Ditzler (now PPG) coined the term "poly-chromatic" to describe a color with many facets.

The ’60s saw really large, flamboyant, vinyl flakes that required a higher-solids resin to carry them and many coats of clear to cover them. While many street rodders relished the opportunity to spend hours sanding and polishing, OEMs never put them on production vehicles because of the cost and production complexity.

In the 1970s, Chrysler incorporated mica reflectants into its paint. Aluminum flake is like a mirror, polished on two sides but dark on the edge. Mica, however, is like a prism — some light is reflected and some is transmitted. And coating a mica flake with titanium powder yields a pigment that mimics pearlescence."

http://www.bodyshopbusiness.com/behind-the-paint-history/

stever

First generation Dodge Raider.

berri

ab - wonder if that paint was a nightmare to match when repairing? I do recall having that sort of paint on a green 71 Sebring I owned. It was kind of neat in the different light.

tjc78

Beat Cadillac Allante with Historic plates. Didn't realize they were that old now.

kyfdx

tjc78 said:

Beat Cadillac Allante with Historic plates. Didn't realize they were that old now.

1988, maybe?

Mr_Shiftright

Some Allantes are over age 25 already, so they get the historic plates. I suppose "historic" in the sense that Little Big Horn was worth remembering.

fintail

1987 was the first model year for the Allante - a car which for me will always be associated with Kelly Bundy. The first attempt to compete with the modern boulevardier incarnation of the SL, and we know how it ended.

Mr_Shiftright

Problem was, Cadillac was competing with the old 560SL, a lovable old dog at best, and Mercedes soon came out with the 500SL, which was galactically better than the Allante.

fintail

Yep. And a decade or so after the Allante ended, they tried it again with the XLR. Same result. Lexus also tried with the 2002+ SC, which got little cred. Makers and marketing types don't seem to grasp that customers at some price points and vehicle types don't use price as a key determinant.

Mr_Shiftright

When's the last time you saw a Reatta---it's been years for me.

fintail

I see them now and then, especially in summer ,it seems. Unusual car, didn't compete with anyone, anyway.

ab348

Mr_Shiftright said:

When's the last time you saw a Reatta---it's been years for me.

There's a really nice one being featured today at Hemmings:

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2016/03/12/hemmings-find-of-the-day-1990-buick-reatta-convertible/

ab348

fintail said:

1987 was the first model year for the Allante - a car which for me will always be associated with Kelly Bundy. The first attempt to compete with the modern boulevardier incarnation of the SL, and we know how it ended.

But the ads! I still love this commercial. Check out around the 0:35 mark:

https://youtu.be/-IG9EsoFCm4

fintail

Good one, pretty gutsy claim as the 560SL was putting out about 230hp by then - not bad for those days. I wonder how they actually performed vs each other. I like the brief shot of a Cimarron, too.

Here's Kelly, classic episode - compressed image as Youtube now has become obsessive about any potential copyright stuff.

roadburner

I have a friend who worked at GM when the Allante was new. He said that the bodies supplied by Pininfarina just barely met the crash standards in effect at the time. He told me he wouldn't ride in one on a bet.

berri

I think they shipped them on a specially outfitted B747. I never saw how that made any economic sense.

tjc78

Mr_Shiftright said:

When's the last time you saw a Reatta---it's been years for me.

I actually have one in my neighborhood.  It looks like someone must love it and they appear to DD it. 

Yeah the Allante must have been an early one.  I always thought they were decent looking but certainly no Benz. 

berri

I always thought the Reatta was a nice looking car, but it was the wrong car for it's niche I think. Thunderbird proved that when it's 58 four seater way outsold it's previous two seater.

Mr_Shiftright

I always thought the Allante dashboard was something out of an RV, not a lux roadster: (yes but we have more buttons than anybody!)

Mr_Shiftright

Compared to a 560SL:

fintail

Looks like a 1989, by the steering wheel, but I am not 100% certain. They got a lot of mileage out of that platform. Here's the 1972 model - almost the same:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Compared to a 560SL:

Mr_Shiftright

And what's the first thing a cross-shopper would see when he opens the door? Yes, the dash. I suspect that former Cadillac owners would have felt at home in the Allante, but former Cadillac owners is not what the Allante sales team was counting on.

berri

Detroit's plasticized era

uplanderguy

The only Caddy advantage, IMHO, is more color-keying, and for some reason when most companies started gluing mirrors to the windshield, I no longer liked that stalk that came down from the ceiling to the mirror on other cars. That said, the quality of materials in the 'Benz is most-likely higher-notch.

fintail

The Allante was nice looking from the outside, in a modern 80s kind of way. I have to imagine there are weird creaks and rattles from all of those buttons after 25+ years, though. It looks like it might not have the parts bin GM switchgear, which is good - that snappy fragile feeling signal/wiper stalk bugs me on cars of that era.

Mr_Shiftright

And the tweedy THANG of the trunk lid...

andre1969

tjc78 said:

Beat Cadillac Allante with Historic plates. Didn't realize they were that old now.

Scarily enough, in Maryland a car can be just 20 years old, and qualify for historic plates! It used to be 25, but at some point, before 2009 they changed it. I put my '85 Silverado on historic tags in early 2009, so it was some point before that.

I was thinking about this a couple weeks ago, when I put my 2000 Park Ave through the emissions test. The check engine light had been coming in sporadically, but one morning it turned off, so I hustled to the testing station on my lunch break that day, and it passed. They warn you to wait at least a week, if you've recently had the battery disconnected, had emissions-related work, or the light turns off because sometimes the computer will still store error codes, but it passed!

Anyway, in Maryland they do emissions testing every two years, so the next time it'll come up is April 2018. If (and that's a big if) I still have the car on January 1, 2020, I could get historic tags for it, and exempt it from emissions testing! It seems weird, to think a car that "modern", only needs to pass one more emissions test, and in less than four years, becomes "historic".

imidazol97

andre1969 said:

They warn you to wait at least a week, if you've recently had the battery disconnected, had emissions-related work, or the light turns off because sometimes the computer will still store error codes, but it passed!

I think the suggestion about waiting after changing the battery or having had codes cleared post emissions-related work is so that the computer has time to rerun the various tests that it goes through and show them as having been performed. My scanner shows how many have not cycled through and been met. Probably when they attach the scanner at the testing site, if they see the same lack of completed emissions tests they assume the system has been reset to turn off errors. I believe with your Buick the gas tank has to be between certain fill levels for the leak tests to run. So if you're driving around on a full tank, those tests won't show completed for a few days until the tank is down and the right temperatures on restart are met (along with other parameters).

Have you used a code reader or stopped at a box store where they will read the codes to see what code you're getting? My guess would be one related to a sticky purge valve which sits right on top of the block on the front of the engine under the beauty cover.

Mr_Shiftright

imidazol97 said:

andre1969 said:

They warn you to wait at least a week, if you've recently had the battery disconnected, had emissions-related work, or the light turns off because sometimes the computer will still store error codes, but it passed!

I think the suggestion about waiting after changing the battery or having had codes cleared post emissions-related work is so that the computer has time to rerun the various tests that it goes through and show them as having been performed. My scanner shows how many have not cycled through and been met. Probably when they attach the scanner at the testing site, if they see the same lack of completed emissions tests they assume the system has been reset to turn off errors. I believe with your Buick the gas tank has to be between certain fill levels for the leak tests to run. So if you're driving around on a full tank, those tests won't show completed for a few days until the tank is down and the right temperatures on restart are met (along with other parameters).

Have you used a code reader or stopped at a box store where they will read the codes to see what code you're getting? My guess would be one related to a sticky purge valve which sits right on top of the block on the front of the engine under the beauty cover.

I think the warning also applies to when a scan tool is used to turn off the CEL. The smog station will detect that if you come in too soon after.

andre1969

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think the warning also applies to when a scan tool is used to turn off the CEL. The smog station will detect that if you come in too soon after.

I was thinking about that, too. My house mate has a scanner, and it can reset the computer. I've heard that with older OBD-II cars, you're more likely to get away with that and fool the emissions test, but more recent cars are too "smart" for that.

One of my friends once had a 2004 Crown Vic, and a mechanic turned off the check engine light for him, and told him to get to the emissions test quick, before the light came back on. He ended up passing, taking it that very same day. But, he might have gotten lucky.

I haven't put the scanner to my Park Ave yet, but the next time the light comes on, I'll do it. It's at the shop right now, and I hate to admit it, but there's a small part of me that kinda hopes the mechanic finds too much wrong with it, so it'll encourage me to get rid of it! Most of what it needs is really just maintenance stuff though...checking the belts/hoses/coolant/transmission fluid, brakes (might need bleeding or adjusting, pedal seems to go too far to the floor), and shocks/struts (getting a bit bouncy).

stickguy

It apparently can tell how long since the battery was disconnected. Some years back I got a new battery in our odyssey, and decided to swing through the inspection station since it was near the Walmart. Bad idea. I failed because they saw a recent disconnect. Never a CEL, but had to go back a week later to have it checked again.

tifighter

Interior aside, I always thought the Allante was a good looking car. Then again, Cadillac didn't style it.

I actually think the ELR is good looking too, so I may have other issues I'm not aware of...

uplanderguy

I toured the Bowling Green Corvette plant in either 2006 or 2007 when I was working in Nashville. They were also building the XLR--is that it?--the two-seat Caddy. What a wonderful tour they gave there, really. Anyway, the tour guide asked a teenaged girl if she wished to be the first person to start an XLR at the end of the line. She did. When she started the car, the tour guide said, "OK, you can get out now". There was no interior door hardware on the car yet. Pretty funny, and done deliberately by the tour guide!

sda

I liked the Allante. I understand the top was a real pain to put up and down. That should have been fully automated, effortless, dare I say, Cadillac style?

sda

andre1969 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think the warning also applies to when a scan tool is used to turn off the CEL. The smog station will detect that if you come in too soon after.

I was thinking about that, too. My house mate has a scanner, and it can reset the computer. I've heard that with older OBD-II cars, you're more likely to get away with that and fool the emissions test, but more recent cars are too "smart" for that.

One of my friends once had a 2004 Crown Vic, and a mechanic turned off the check engine light for him, and told him to get to the emissions test quick, before the light came back on. He ended up passing, taking it that very same day. But, he might have gotten lucky.

I haven't put the scanner to my Park Ave yet, but the next time the light comes on, I'll do it. It's at the shop right now, and I hate to admit it, but there's a small part of me that kinda hopes the mechanic finds too much wrong with it, so it'll encourage me to get rid of it! Most of what it needs is really just maintenance stuff though...checking the belts/hoses/coolant/transmission fluid, brakes (might need bleeding or adjusting, pedal seems to go too far to the floor), and shocks/struts (getting a bit bouncy).

How many miles on the Park Ave? Have you changed the supercharger oil? I liked the PA, and also liked the 97.5-2004(?) Regal GS with the 3.8 supercharged engine. Ended up with an 00 Intrigue with the shortstar, which was nice as well.

andre1969

sda said:

How many miles on the Park Ave? Have you changed the supercharger oil? I liked the PA, and also liked the 97.5-2004(?) Regal GS with the 3.8 supercharged engine. Ended up with an 00 Intrigue with the shortstar, which was nice as well.

I think it's something like 111,400 miles. Oddly, I CAN remember how many miles it had on it when I bought it. 56,372, back in December of 2009. And yeah, I did have the supercharger oil changed, around the 60,000 mile mark. I forget who recommended doing that, but it was one of the members here at Edmunds. I remember them saying it was common for the supercharger to fail around 90-100,000 miles, and it was around a $1000 repair, but it was also because owners rarely had the oil changed.

My Dad has an '03 Regal, but it's just the LS model with the regular 3.8. I've driven it a few times, and it still feels fairly quick, thanks to its lighter weight, I guess. I imagine it would be really fun with the supercharged engine.

And, while there's a part of me that wants to get rid of the Park Ave, I'll admit I have mixed feelings about it. It'll feel like the end of an era, I guess, when that car is gone. I don't think there are any cars left that are that roomy inside, unless I splurged for a long-wheelbase S-class, 7-series, A-8, or whatever. The Impala, Charger, and 300, while cars I would consider, definitely feel smaller inside.

imidazol97

andre1969 said:

but it was one of the members here at Edmunds. I remember them saying it was common for the supercharger to fail around 90-100,000 miles, and it was around a $1000 repair, but it was also because owners rarely had the oil changed.

Might have been me. I kept reading on a couple Pontiac forums and a couple Buick forums with people changing the oil after they already had wear and noises.

andre1969 said:

And, while there's a part of me that wants to get rid of the Park Ave, I'll admit I have mixed feelings about it. It'll feel like the end of an era, I guess, when that car is gone. I don't think there are any cars left that are that roomy inside,

I miss my large roomy leSabre. Park Ave is even better in rear seat room. But I can vouch if you have it in good shape and give it a great detail job you can probably get a lot more for it than you think. Replace struts and shocks and some other wear items. They are very popular as a used car. I thought our leSabre would go to auction. It had a few flaws and I put no new money into it. But the Chevy dealer gave it a super polish job inside and out, and put it out on the lot and sold it. AND yours is low mileage at 110.

fintail

I bet there are some nice low mileage Lucerne Supers out there that probably aren't insanely pricey.

tjc78

Andre, if you were to look at something new maybe try and grab a Lucerne.  If the Super scares you because of the Northstar get one of the later models with the 3.9 from the Impala.  It would have similar power to your Park Ave.  I've driven a few it's a nice car.  

The previous generation Avalon 05+ is also very roomy inside with a flat rear floor.   I had an 06 which was a good car. 

Mr_Shiftright

I'd shy away from any Northstar that hadn't had the head gaskets and head fasteners professionally redone.

andre1969

tjc78 said:

Andre, if you were to look at something new maybe try and grab a Lucerne.  If the Super scares you because of the Northstar get one of the later models with the 3.9 from the Impala.  It would have similar power to your Park Ave.  I've driven a few it's a nice car.  

The previous generation Avalon 05+ is also very roomy inside with a flat rear floor.   I had an 06 which was a good car. 

I've thought about a Lucerne but yeah, the Northstar does scare me a bit. I've heard the version they use in the Lucerne is less powerful, and a bit more durable, than the one Cadillac uses, but at this point even the newest Lucerne is going on 6 model years old, so it'll be no spring chicken!

I've wondered about the 3.9, as well. I think it has something like 227 hp, compared to the 240 my Park Ave has. So, not a huge difference. I remember reading a road test of an older Lucerne with the 3.8, which was re-tuned a bit and lost a bit of horsepower, but picked up a broader torque curve to deal with all that weight. I think 0-60 was around 9.5 seconds...about what my old Intrepid was good for. I think my Park Ave is good for around 7.6 or so. I've never seen a road test of a 3.9 Lucerne, but I'm sure it would be adequate.

A few weeks ago, I found one for sale locally, a 2010 with the 3.9 and around 35,000 miles. It had leather, but no sunroof. I think they wanted $15,995 for it. It was kind of a metallic reddish color that made me think of something that Miss Kitty from Gunsmoke would drive, if she was alive today.

I've been in a few Avalons from that era, and agree, they are nice cars. I like the interiors, and the fact that even the back seats can recline a bit.

sda

Mr_Shiftright said:

I'd shy away from any Northstar that hadn't had the head gaskets and head fasteners professionally redone.

I thought the later Northstars 2001+(?) had been improved and addressed this issue. Not true? My parent's had a 98 Aurora with the smaller Northstar and it suffered from both the infamous oil leak and then head gasket failure around 103k. My 01 Aurora 4.0 needed a water pump at 55k, didn't use oil and was fine otherwise. I did sell it at 87k, so don't know how it would have held up long term. It was a smooth running and had a nice sound when revved.

uplanderguy

andre, if you're considering a Lucerne, you must pick whatever trim level gets you that chrome molding at the bottom of the decklid. I can't stand them without that! LOL

andre1969

uplanderguy said:

andre, if you're considering a Lucerne, you must pick whatever trim level gets you that chrome molding at the bottom of the decklid. I can't stand them without that! LOL

Dammit, guess this one won't pass your inspection!


FWIW, I found the car, and it's still for sale. 27,000 miles and $14,995. So lower than I remembered, on both counts...

Looking at that rear end shot above, it reminds of something I don't like about red/burgundy cars these days. There's just something about the way the tail lights clash with the rest of the car. Older cars could get away with it because they usually had chrome or other trim around the lens, so you didn't get two similar, but not similar-enough, shades of red butting right up against each other.

I just did a quick search, and it looks like whoever designed the tail lights on the Ram pickups read my mind, because I don't mind this...


However, in this case it could also be a lighting trick. Or the fact that the paint and tail light lens have enough contrast, that it doesn't bother me.

imidazol97

WOW that's a gem. 27000 miles. 1-owner. Maryland and Florida registrations only
on the CarFax, if true. Cashmere interior.

Is CXL the middle series? And CXS the top line? But the CXL has the Premium
package which may have added much of the CXS's features?

The base model, supposedly to replace leSabre never impressed me and it really
lost gas mileage from the 3800 in the real world.

ab348

That Lucerne is a nice car but remember it is 6 model years old now. Given that I think they are asking a little too much. It does have the newer "heart-shaped" grill which some people like (incl. myself) while others do not, along with chrome wheels. Being a 2010 it has almost none of the in-car tech we expect today like Bluetooth, etc. I never understood why Buick used the font they chose on the instrument faces - don't care for that. I always found these cars sat a bit low for my liking. Certainly the last of the old-style Buicks.

There was a special package offered for these that gave you that chrome strip on the trunklid along with a bunch of other stuff - I forget the name of the package.

fintail

That gauge font is kind of funny for that car, something I would expect on a 2001 Monte Carlo SS.

Back in 2009 when my mother was car shopping after her Corolla got hit, I recommended she look at a CPO Lucerne, and I pointed one out parked on the street. It had a Red Hat Society sticker, which was a deal breaker for her - funny, as she's the demographic. She ended up in a Camry.

andre1969

imidazol97 said:

WOW that's a gem. 27000 miles. 1-owner. Maryland and Florida registrations only
on the CarFax, if true. Cashmere interior.

Is CXL the middle series? And CXS the top line? But the CXL has the Premium
package which may have added much of the CXS's features?

The base model, supposedly to replace leSabre never impressed me and it really
lost gas mileage from the 3800 in the real world.

I think they switched around in the final couple years, but initially the CX was the base model, with a cloth interior, the CXL was the luxury model (I always thought of it as 'CX-Leather' or 'CX-Luxury') and the CXS was the top line sporty model, with a standard V-8. I think the CXL could be had with either V-6 or V-8, but I'm not sure.

That gauge font is interesting, it's almost as if they were trying to make the car appeal to a younger audience, but the car overall sent mixed signals. Style-wise, I thought the rear of the car did look a bit more youthful than the LeSabre and Park Ave did, if a bit more generic and less Buick-ish. And from the side I think the car looks very attractive, but I'm just not that crazy about the front-end. The earlier models weren't too bad, but I didn't care for the later models with that larger, "heart-shaped" grille. Not enough to keep me from liking the car, overall, but just a detail I didn't like.

I am sorta tempted to go look at this Lucerne, and see how I like it, in person. If I did decide to replace the Park Ave, another car I've been thinking about is...wait for it...a V-6 Accord! While I'd really like a Charger or 300, I don't want to settle for a lesser version, but I'm not ready to go full out...might save one of those for my mid-life crisis car!

ab348

The V-6 Chrysler 300 Touring is a very nice ride. I had one as a rental a few years ago and thought it had plenty of zip.

imidazol97

andre1969 said:

I think they switched around in the final couple years, but initially the CX was the base model, with a cloth interior, the CXL was the luxury model (I always thought of it as 'CX-Leather' or 'CX-Luxury') and the CXS was the top line sporty model, with a standard V-8. I think the CXL could be had with either V-6 or V-8, but I'm not sure.

I think you're spot on with that.