I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

uplanderguy

Here's a beautiful (IMO) '65 Impala SS in Evening Orchid:

http://www.diecast.org/assets/images/forums/2016/08/09/SC0514-183267_2.jpg

It's a mainstream car that I love, which generally goes against my grain, but then I'd also really enjoy a nice '55 or '56 Chevy Bel Air Sport Coupe or Nomad, too.

With these cars, I can compartmentalize the 'too popular' thing, LOL!

sda

uplanderguy said:

Here's a beautiful (IMO) '65 Impala SS in Evening Orchid:

http://www.diecast.org/assets/images/forums/2016/08/09/SC0514-183267_2.jpg

It's a mainstream car that I love, which generally goes against my grain, but then I'd also really enjoy a nice '55 or '56 Chevy Bel Air Sport Coupe or Nomad, too.

With these cars, I can compartmentalize the 'too popular' thing, LOL!

What a nice clean body style. I like the color combo and have always liked those spinner wheel covers. What engine does the SS have, a 327?

uplanderguy

The SS could be had in any engine that year--even the six-cylinder.

Mr_Shiftright

And if you wanted to get in touch with your bad self--you could even order the new 250 cid 6 cylinder!

uplanderguy

The 250 was new for '66.

Our '67 Chevelle had it as an option--$26 over the standard 230! LOL

Mr_Shiftright

the 250 shows as an option in 1965 in a number of sources:

http://www.impalaclassics.com/1965_chevy_impala.html

I think it was kind of a mid-year availability.

uplanderguy

The 230 isn't even listed in that site. Here's the brochure engine page for full-size '65 Chevys:

http://oldcarbrochures.org/NA/Chevrolet/1965_Chevrolet/1965_Chevrolet_Full_Size_Brochure/1965-Chevrolet-Full-Size-18-19

Here's the '66 brochure, mentioning the "new" standard 250 six:

http://oldcarbrochures.org/NA/Chevrolet/1966_Chevrolet/1966_Chevrolet_Full_Size_Brochure/1966-Chevrolet-Full-Size-22-23

With a few rare occasions (like the 396 and the second-gen Camaro and Firebird), GM usually didn't introduce things mid-year but waited for the new model year. I'd never say never, but I tend to trust brochures over anything else, since the manufacturer themselves wrote it.

Mr_Shiftright

uplanderguy said:

The 230 isn't even listed in that site. Here's the brochure engine page for full-size '65 Chevys:

http://oldcarbrochures.org/NA/Chevrolet/1965_Chevrolet/1965_Chevrolet_Full_Size_Brochure/1965-Chevrolet-Full-Size-18-19

Here's the '66 brochure, mentioning the "new" standard 250 six:

http://oldcarbrochures.org/NA/Chevrolet/1966_Chevrolet/1966_Chevrolet_Full_Size_Brochure/1966-Chevrolet-Full-Size-22-23

With a few rare occasions (like the 396 and the second-gen Camaro and Firebird), GM usually didn't introduce things mid-year but waited for the new model year. I'd never say never, but I tend to trust brochures over anything else, since the manufacturer themselves wrote it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah it is----look again.

It's also listed in Sessler's Chevrolet SS Muscle Car Red Book.

It doesn't show up in Chilton's for that year, however.

Short Answer: I don't know for sure.

sda

This one probably doesn't qualify, but I saw a very clean (looked new) '98 or 99 Olds Cutlass GLS. That was the fancy sister of the Malibu. Most that I see and that isn't often anymore are not loved and ratty.

ab348

My brother owned a '63 Impala SS convertible, black over red interior, with the 230 6 cylin

uplanderguy said:

Here's a beautiful (IMO) '65 Impala SS in Evening Orchid:

http://www.diecast.org/assets/images/forums/2016/08/09/SC0514-183267_2.jpg

It's a mainstream car that I love, which generally goes against my grain, but then I'd also really enjoy a nice '55 or '56 Chevy Bel Air Sport Coupe or Nomad, too.

With these cars, I can compartmentalize the 'too popular' thing, LOL!

Looking at the '65 brochure, I learned that Evening Orchid was not available on the Belair or Biscayne that year.

It also appears that on a regular Impala, the only interior choice was black with that paint. In the SS you could get white vinyl, which I think probably looked great.

Mr_Shiftright

Evening Orchid was color code "P" on the data plate.

Here's a Malibu SS, original car, Evening Orchid with white interior, and I agree, it looks really good.

http://www.usedcarunder10k.com/detail/Chevrolet-Chevelle-Super-Sport-1965-chevelle_401156879787.html

uplanderguy

When that first link you provided is opened, engines are at the very top. They show a 250, but not the 230 that (in my mind first, and per the factory brochures for both '65 and '66) is the only six in a '65 full-size.

I never put much stock in websites or even the coffee-table books. I have seen so many errors of fact and omission in them over the years, that I go to the source when I have a question. I love the Old Car Manual project site, which has many if not most brochures for domestic cars. It's a great resource.

uplanderguy

Evening Orchid was called "Iris Mist" on '65 Pontiacs. I'm not sure if Buick or Olds offered it that year. I just love the color. One-year only on GM products.

I'd happily take a Corvair Corsa in that color, too.

Mr_Shiftright

uplanderguy said:

When that first link you provided is opened, engines are at the very top. They show a 250, but not the 230 that (in my mind and per the factory brochure) is the only six in a '65 full-size.

I never put much stock in websites or even the coffee-table books. I have seen so many errors of fact and omission in them over the years, that I go to the source when I have a question. I love the Old Car Manual project site, which has many if not most brochures for domestic cars. It's a great resource.

You need multiple sources. Brochures are sometimes wrong, too. Ultimately, build sheets and an original car settle the issue.

Sessler's isn't a coffee table book BTW but part of the Red Book series. Generally pretty accurate but you know, anything written by a human can be in error.

uplanderguy

It's like a story that's been told over and over again over the years. I prefer what the manufacturer put out at the time the car was being sold versus what someone has written from memory or hearsay decades later. But that's me.

Mr_Shiftright

Depends on the source. Some authors have an excellent reputation and a good bibliography.

My rule is always "prove it".

Is a brochure rock solid "proof"? No, but it's better than a website.

Best evidence is a build sheet or window sticker, or an unmolested data plate and VIN plate.

uplanderguy

In lieu of looking at a specific car, I don't see how there could be more original data than the brochure. But we can agree to disagree. My first memory was that it was new in '66, and that seems corroborated by the brochures for both '65 and '66. Of course, never say never.

kyfdx

Most brochures are printed before the cars are available. Everyone I've seen for the last few decades has a disclaimer that configurations/options could be different than what's in the brochure.

Great information if you have access to it, but I wouldn't wager money based on it.

uplanderguy

That disclaimer is S.O.P., but what would be more accurate? A book written for hire years after-the-fact? I've seen for decades in brochures, the legalese line "we reserve the right to make changes". I've studied Chevy brochures for decades. I can think of one pic in a brochure I've seen that didn't jibe with the actual cars I saw daily at our local dealership.

I've spent my life looking at/studying about Chevys--at least before I got into Studebakers. I would defer to andre on Mopars and fintail on M-B's and anybody else on Fords. But I'm pretty comfortable with what I've seen, repeatedly, on Chevys over fifty years.

It's not 'factory', but the 1971 'Motor' repair manual corroborates the brochures too--230 in '65; 250 in '66.

Please--if somebody comes across a '65 full-size Chevy with 250--post data plate here!

I'm exhausted. Next topic! LOL

omarman

uplanderguy said:

Please--if somebody comes across a '65 full-size Chevy with 250--post data plate here! I'm exhausted. Next topic! LOL

Help me professor Shifty, I'm new to this GM world. Where to find a decoder for a 1965 Impala with a 250 six? Everything I've seen for that M.Y. only shows six cylinder engine codes for the 230/140hp:

1965 FA 230 140HP 1 bbl 3 speed
1965 FE 230 140HP 1 bbl 3 speed H.D. clutch
1965 FF 230 140HP 1 bbl 3 speed AC, H.D. clutch
1965 FK 230 140HP 1 bbl 3 speed Taxi
1965 FL 230 140HP 1 bbl 3 speed AC
1965 FM 230 140HP 1 bbl Powerglide
1965 FP 230 140HP 1 bbl Powerglide Taxi
1965 FR 230 140HP 1 bbl Powerglide AC.
All other engine codes are V8 engines.

And when I looked at the GM heritage vehicle information kit for the '65 Chevy, the documents only refer to the 230 six. No reference to the 250 six until 1966.

If somebody presents a 1965 Chevy data plate stamped KLAATU BARADA NIKTO or anything else that doesn't fit with existing GM documentation then it still seems other-worldly.

People of Earth,
you have been warned,
GORT

Mr_Shiftright

You won't be the first car collector to be surprised.

iluvmysephia1

uplander - my favorite 60's Chevy's were the '61-'64 Nova's. Were they reliable, or troublesome?

uplanderguy

The first Chevy II's were the '62-65 model years. Just a couple weeks ago I was talking to an old mechanic friend. I said I didn't like the '66-67 models at all and his response was that those first-generation Chevy II's ('62-65) were really "built down to a price". He opined that their OEM ball joints wore out so quickly and were so easy to replace, the place he worked at made a lot of money on them and that he probably had the Moog part number memorized at one time! I don't know if the part was redesigned on later models, or if he had quit working there by then. I do remember seeing a '65 on the back of our local Chevy dealer's lot with rust on the top of the fenders...unusual for a Chevy of that time as all other models, in my memory, had inner fender liners by that time.

That said...and I am NOT a mechanic in the slightest sense!...Of those first Chevy II's, I like the '65 best for looks, as they had the taillight and backup light side-by-side on each side, and there was subtle refinement of the grille. Not to mention, by '65 they were available with some hotter V8's.

You couldn't get a Chevy II with a V8 at all until the '64 model year, and from '62 through '70 you could even get them with a four-cylinder--although I can only ever remember seeing one new one on our dealer's lot--a light green '70 four-door. Even my thrifty Dad wouldn't consider a four then.

berri

Favorite Chevy of the sixties - that is a real tough one. I guess I can narrow it down to any Stingray, or the 61 or 65 Impala SS. After that is just gets too hard! Uplander, I'm thinking you might be a 67 Impala man?

Mr_Shiftright

I think the '65 Impala SS had it all over the full-size comparables from Ford and Chrysler.

The first Novas were pretty reliable by 1960s standards, although I'd give the edge here to the competition from the Valiant and Dart. Falcons ran a poor third IMO. The Chrysler Slant Six and Torqueflight transmissions are hard to beat.

ab348

If we keep it to the traditional low-price three, I would pick the '67 Chevy as my favourite from the 1960s, with the '61 Chevy in 2nd place. I'd take a '66 Ford Galaxie for 3rd.

roadburner

omarman said:

uplanderguy said:

Please--if somebody comes across a '65 full-size Chevy with 250--post data plate here! I'm exhausted. Next topic! LOL

Help me professor Shifty, I'm new to this GM world. Where to find a decoder for a 1965 Impala with a 250 six? Everything I've seen for that M.Y. only shows six cylinder engine codes for the 230/140hp:

1965 FA 230 140HP 1 bbl 3 speed
1965 FE 230 140HP 1 bbl 3 speed H.D. clutch
1965 FF 230 140HP 1 bbl 3 speed AC, H.D. clutch
1965 FK 230 140HP 1 bbl 3 speed Taxi
1965 FL 230 140HP 1 bbl 3 speed AC
1965 FM 230 140HP 1 bbl Powerglide
1965 FP 230 140HP 1 bbl Powerglide Taxi
1965 FR 230 140HP 1 bbl Powerglide AC.
All other engine codes are V8 engines.

And when I looked at the GM heritage vehicle information kit for the '65 Chevy, the documents only refer to the 230 six. No reference to the 250 six until 1966.

If somebody presents a 1965 Chevy data plate stamped KLAATU BARADA NIKTO or anything else that doesn't fit with existing GM documentation then it still seems other-worldly.

People of Earth,
you have been warned,
GORT

Klaatu,spoke those words. Gort was the mute robot with the disintegrator beam.

uplanderguy

The '65 is my favorite '60's Chevy, followed by a '61 hardtop. But I hate that the '61's radio buttons spell out "CHEVY". A van is a 'Chevy', a Chevy II is a 'Chevy', but an Impala is a 'Chevrolet'! I'd look for one with a non-pushbutton radio--and I have seen them.

I like the '67 instrument panel best of all of 'em. I could much-like a '67 Impala SS, strato-bench seat with fold-down center armrest, and Turbo-Hydramatic and disc brakes. Madeira Maroon.

As much as I grew up loving Chevys, in hindsight I wonder why they clung so long to a two-speed automatic. And one might think other GM's would have had the motor mount problem, but it was only Chevy.

But I still think that on the big, and small, things you could see, they beat Ford and Plymouth. MHO only, of course. Things like seat design, instrument "look", interior door panels, armrests, etc.--an Impala had "it" and sometimes I think the seat and door trim even bettered the same year Pontiac Catalina. I liked on big GM's how the vent windows were crank-operated, a small touch of class I think.

ab348

Back then GM's economies of scale helped them with adding value and not just cutting costs as they began doing in the '70s. I think the vent window crank mechanism is a good example. While it would cost more than a typical hand operated vent with a swivel catch, when you look at how many millions of the same part they could order in a model year the cost probably became quite competitive. Multiply that by many other parts that enjoyed the same effect and it let them produce a car that had higher perceived value than the competition for the same price.

Chevys were built to a lower price than other GM cars though. The motor mounts might be a symptom of that. I know that in areas like body engineering and trim quality it was also true. It would be interesting to hear some of the internal discussions within GM on that '67 Chevy IP - I bet the other divisions were not happy that Chevy had such a deluxe-looking design that year.

ab348

Interesting coincidence: THIS ARTICLE on Hemmings today is about the 1965 BelAir and states that the 250 6 cylinder did indeed become available mid-year. I posted a comment asking what the source of that was. Maybe someone will respond.

uplanderguy

I like Hemmings, but if I had a dime for every error I've ever seen in a Hemmings....

I see that article states it includes excerpts from an article posted in 2012.

I won't exclude the possibility, but no one has been able to post anything from the manufacturer that would indicate that...and the Motor manual from 1971 (closer to the date than anything else besides the brochure mentioned here) doesn't indicate that either.

It would be interesting to see if the 250 was mentioned anywhere in the Owners' Guide that year. I seem to remember my Dad's old Chevys actually having firing order and such in the back of the Owners' Guide.

The sites indicating a mid-year 250 don't indicate if it replaced the 230 in full-size cars, or if became an optional six for the rest of that model year only.

For what it's worth, there were optional sixes in the Chevy II and Chevelle lines throughout the sixties. Chevy offered a 194 six in those cars, with a 230 optional; when the 230 became standard in those lines, the 250 became optional...right up through '69. When the optional six was offered, an engine ID badge was affixed to the front fenders of the cars indicating the optional six. I'm seen probably thousands of full-size '65 Chevys, including sixes, and I've never seen a one with an emblem like that. Chevelles and Chevy II's, sure.

I wonder if what might be confusing the situation, is that (of course) the 250 would have built in '65 as the '66 model year started in September '65.

texases

Followed a first-gen RX-7 home last night, looked pretty original, including the black slat rear window shade. Boy, was that car small! I remember trying to sit in one years ago, no way...

fintail

Big mid 60s Fords, at least Galaxies, also had crank operated vent windows. Fintails have knob operated vent windows. I am pretty sure the 60 Country Sedan and 68 Fairlane my dad had 20-25 years ago had the swivel catch things.

roadburner

My 2002 had knob operated vent windows. They worked pretty well.

Mr_Shiftright

I never liked the knobs because it caused a lot of door panel wear on similar cars I owned. Also awkward to use IMO.

texases

My '83 GTI had the optional ($50?) opening vent windows. Worked fine until the latch fell off the window...

omarman

roadburner said:

Klaatu,spoke those words. Gort was the mute robot with the disintegrator beam.

And this is NOT his story! It was I who speculated that those immortal safe words may yet be found stamped onto a 1965 Chevy data plate - even though there is no existing documentation to support my claim. Yet.

RE: availability of the 250 six in the 1965 full size Chevy.
It's going to be fun to verify a data plate or VIN or anything like that which can't be supported by documentation from the maker. If someone posts an engine code claimed to designate a 250 six in a 1965 Chevy Impala how can one verify that?

I'm not saying that it didn't happen or that it could not possibly have happened. I asked how to prove that a code stamped on a data plate can be verified as legit without a matching factory code or documentation to back it up.

Shirley you must agree.
Laverne

uplanderguy

LOL. This has been interesting.

Even before this conversation, I like thumbing through the brochures. Reminds me how dismal picking colors and optional equipment today is, LOL.

uplanderguy

LOL. This has been interesting. Were you the class clown?

Even before this conversation, I like thumbing through the brochures. Reminds me how dismal picking colors and optional equipment today is, LOL.

uplanderguy

Interesting coincidence: THIS ARTICLE on Hemmings today is about the 1965 BelAir and states that the 250 6 cylinder did indeed become available mid-year

That Hemmings article also mentions an optional 220 hp 283, which is not in even the mid-year brochure the one reader posted there, that shows the 396. A 220 hp 283 was available in the Chevelles starting in '64 but not apparently in the '65 full-sizes. A "whoops" in the Hemmings article.

fintail

I guess we need a data plate and build sheet with an original bill of sale with a corresponding canceled check

fintail

Do you want your sedan in silver with black interior or beige with grey interior?

uplanderguy said:

LOL. This has been interesting. Were you the class clown?

Even before this conversation, I like thumbing through the brochures. Reminds me how dismal picking colors and optional equipment today is, LOL.

uplanderguy

So, so sad.

And probably guys older than me (58) remember even more color choices.

stever

Good collection here, especially the Previa.

12 Affordable Classic Cars (WSJ - apologies if it's a registration link, I found it free on Google)

stever

Besides the '97 Previa All-Trac, the list includes the MB E320 Cabriolet ('93-'95), '95 BMW 850 CSi (12 cylinder....hmm), '93 Saab 900 Turbo SPG, '92 Land Rover Classic long wheelbase, '92 Subaru SVX, the oft touted S2000, '96 Volvo 850 R Wagon, the, er, Insight, '97 Bently Turbo R, and '04 Phaeton W12. And a '05['08 Elise to round out the list, all under 30 years of age and obtainable for less than $30k.

berri

And probably guys older than me (58) remember even more color choices.

Heck, I remember tri tones and pastels, all smothered with real chrome!

texases

stever said:

Besides the '97 Previa All-Trac, the list includes the MB E320 Cabriolet ('93-'95), '95 BMW 850 CSi (12 cylinder....hmm), '93 Saab 900 Turbo SPG, '92 Land Rover Classic long wheelbase, '92 Subaru SVX, the oft touted S2000, '96 Volvo 850 R Wagon, the, er, Insight, '97 Bently Turbo R, and '04 Phaeton W12. And a '05['08 Elise to round out the list, all under 30 years of age and obtainable for less than $30k.

Interesting list...the 850 always gets lots of love these days, I'm not a fan, it was a major letdown after the 635 to me. I remember being amazed at how much more the E320 Cab cost compared to the sedan when new. Not sure I'd want an SVX.

ab348

Interior colors: hoo-boy! My pet peeve. Here is what I have had for interiors in cars I've driven regularly or owned in my life:

'73 Volvo 144: brown
'74 Maverick: tan
'77 LeMans: white/blue
'79 Impala: red
'85 MR2: grey/black
'90 GTI: gray/black
'64 Skylark: red
'68 Cutlass: black
'78 Delta 88: red
'79 Park Avenue: blue
'02 Intrigue: gray
'09 Lacrosse: gray
'11 Regal: cashmere
'14 ATS: black

I'd love to find a car with a green or gold interior some day. Of the ones I had, the Park Avenue was by far the best-looking in terms of color. The light blue was just beautiful.

fintail

Quite a few less than reliable cars on that list, but they are all pretty rare and not horribly expensive, I'll give them that. Affordable special interest cars (wouldn't call a Previa or a Phaeton a "classic" just yet), but most won't see the appreciation potential many hope for with an old car. For a few years now I've been saying 124 cabrio prices will take off. Any day now, or 20 years from now. Right about when fintails take off

fintail

Interiors for me (cars I have bought as an adult, not family owned cars, but the Galaxie was also blue inside).

Fintail: blue
W126: light grey
C43: black and silver two tone
E55: dark grey
E350 Bluetec: black
E350 gas: very light grey
E250: brown

The E250 is blue on brown, has to be pretty uncommon these days not just among Es but among all cars.

Speaking of green interior, I still love to refer back to this SLC - car sold at auction in 2009 for 6K, but the guy keeps the page active, which is cool. That olive green interior is fantastic on this car, suits the car and the era perfectly.