Price. It's going to slot in under the Civic in terms of MSRP. It has nothing to do with size - Honda has nothing to offer entry level buyers NA buyers who are going to Rios, Accents, Echos, Cavaliers, Neons, et al.
Just because they want to attract the younger buyers, possible just left college and people possible are willing to spend more on aftermarket accessories or modification with their hard earning money. Or it could be an entry level car to bring more potential Honda buyers.
Just because they want to attract the younger buyers, possible just left college and people possible are willing to spend more on aftermarket accessories or modification with their hard earning money. Or it could be an entry level car to bring more potential Honda buyers.
I think LARGER is in. The T&C is 200.5" long x 78.6" wide, the Quest is 204.1" long x 77.6" wide, and the Sienna is 200" long x 77.4" wide. The current Odyssey is 201.2" long x 75.6" wide.
And SUVs are even bigger in sizes.
We all have different opinions. Some like smaller minivans, and some like larger vans. Some like woodtrims and some don't. I don't think the new Ody will please 100% of the people just like the Sienna does not please everyone. But based on the trends, minivans are not getting smaller. They are getting larger in overall size and engine size. I think the majority of us literally want MORE for our money, not LESS.
The new Ody will be at least as large as the current Ody in terms of interior room.
I don't know if we indeed will get MORE for the SAME money. (otherwise how can automobile companies like Honda/Toyota keep on posting bigger profits? See WSJ) Is it that we are paying a bit MORE to get a little MORE ?
Some of us would like LESS of HONDA van, may be for LESS of the SAME money. Usually driving a large vehicle is less fun (driving pleasure point of view), and cumbersome to drive/park in cities like Boston.
If you keep trying to please the majority, then you eventually have a minority. For example if you build what 60% of the people want and then realize that 60% of those people want something bigger, and so on, then you are left with a small market. The way to get the most sales is to offer choices. This is partly why SUV's are so popular. There are so many choices. There are not many choices in minivans. Nobody has more than 1 model, yet they have many different models of SUV's
I think a manufacturer that offers two sizes of minivans will appeal to a lot of people. People coming in to look at the smaller model might move up to the bigger one, and small families used to a bigger minivan may be suprised to see that the smaller one fits them fine while adding handling, maneuverability and economy.
I don't know how we got into this. But before I return to '05 Odyssey discussion, I just see no future for minivan in small scale in North America markets.
Funny thing is, I still don't understand the phenomenon of the SUV. They can have them in small, medium and large scale or 5+ different sizes. And they can have them in luxury, car or truck based, crossover or even convertible. Don't we have two sized of the Caravan already? And we can only have them short or long, wider or taller.
I was just at my local dealer and they have the 2005 color charts available.
My dealer tells me their first 2005 Odyssey orders are being submitted tomorrow with anticipated delivery the last week in August or first in September.
If you look back to almost every popular model that an American car maker has made since the beginning of automobile production, you will notice that almost all of them have grown bigger the longer the model was produced.
The one exception was the super-long-lived Mustang that did actually get smaller during the gas-scare mid-1970's, but then so did it's sales figures. It wasn't long before they started growing the Mustang bigger again too. Now, I'll admit, the nostalgia appeal has driven the Mustang back to approximately original size.
But, recognizing the exception as proving the rule, look elsewhere and you'll see the automotive equivalent of a thyroid condition on most models.
Americans like and have always liked conspicuous consumption ("Keep up with the Jones."). If it isn't bigger, then it has to be impractical in some other way to show that we can afford it.
And it isn't just us. Look at societies (now as well as the past) where working outside meant tanned skin for the poor. In those, lighter skin is a status symbol. In developed countries where most people are forced to work INside out of the sun, the reverse is true: having a tan symbolizes the wealth and leisure time available to be able to lay in the sun. Even the skin cancer scare hasn't stopped it. It has just meant that you can afford the spray/spread-on artificial tans.
And now, class, for the Sociology 101 pop quiz, write a 500 word essay on the effect of cell phones on those under 20, those 20 to 35, and the old fogies.... ;-)
Also notice that many of the varieties of "SUVs" available are simply attempts to relabel vehicles that could just as easily be called station wagons or minivans. Of course, the latter (true?) labels are not popular in America right now (though anything can change) and will not sell as well called what they are.
If Americans really wanted mini-minivans (not what the socially/environmentally-conscious want to tell Americans to want!), they would be available and there would be competition to sell them. I trust in manufacturer's/dealer's greed to make available anything they can profit from offering. No profit. No availability. And remember, with the current competitive environment, profit often comes only with scale. It's hard to make money unless many people will truly buy it.
One more thing. It's easy to say that "many" people want something. Many people say so. However, many of those saying they will do one thing, when it comes time to open their wallets, will buy something else entirely. Wisely, manufacturer's try to make the products that actually get bought, rather than those people simply say they will buy! ;-)
Note: RES denotes Rear Entertainment System (DVD) R&N denotes RES + Navi
Available Color Combos: BE/IV - Desert Rock Metallic / Ivory BK/BK - Nitehawk Black Pearl / Black BL/BK - Ocean Mist Metallic / Black BM/GR - Midnight Blue Pearl / Gray BX/IV - Nitehawk Black Pearl / Ivory GN/BK - Slate Green Metallic / Black GX/OL - Slate Green Metallic / Olive GY/IV - Sage Brush Pearl / Ivory GZ/OL - Sage Brush Pearl / Olive RE/IV - Redrock Pearl / Ivory SI/BK - Silver Pearl Metallic / Black SX/GR - Silver Pearl Metallic / Gray WH/IV - Tafetta White / Ivory
Obviously there is a lot more cost in making a vehicle technically advance but less incremental cost in simply stretching a vehicle from 186" to 200", besides, it will cost a lot more to Honda to make available a choice of two wheelbases, along with myriad of configurations. Irony is that consumers will have to pay more per foot to have a choice here because it will cost more to manufacturer/maintain two set of inventories while not adding any new buyers.
Market exists for a variety of vehicles if made available at a reasonable cost. If bigger is forced to make better (hence it would cost more) then people will buy smaller (and cheaper), just like in Europe and most of the rest of the world. In America, most big American SUVs are technology dinosaurs but have managed to retain market share because they (are allowed to) sell “More for Less”. (Shell we bring in references to Oil/Iraq now?)
Market exists for lot of things simply because of advertisements and market forces. Media drives life of most people in developed world.
You who want a van smaller than the current Odyssey, Sienna, Quest and GC/T&C have other choices, like the short wheel base Caravans and the MPV. Short wheel base Caravan is 189.1" long, only 10.8" longer than a Toyota Corolla sedan, for example, and capable of carrying seven with a modest cargo area or 4-5 with a very large cargo area. Furthermore, with advent of all the crossovers, it appears to me there is a pretty good choice already available from very small, like the Vibe/Matrix and on up. I really don't understand those who claim they want a smaller minivan and can't find one. There are plenty of choices and more coming every year.
Amazing to me how so many folks are against a smaller choice! It is like saying there is no market for a CRV/RAV4. No-one wants a more economical, cheaper, easier to drive in crowded spaces option?! I've looked at the "options". They aren't too attractive. The Matrix isn't so cheap, but quality and content don't strike you as impressive. Also it is a hatchback, not a minivan. It might be a fair comparison in a stationwagon analogy, but not equal to a micro minivan. My GrandCaravan needs replacing, and I want something smaller with better reliability. It's hard to fit in my garage, and not the easiest in parking lots either. I looked at the new Sienna and it and Odysey are too large for what I want. The pricing of each also is reasonable (given size and content), but why not offer something smaller and cheaper? Yes, I am headed over to look at an MPV now, but would prefer a Honda or Toyota offering. I only came here to see if the 05 would be smaller and worth waiting for. Guess not. Oh, please do reply and tell me more how no-one wants a smaller offering and there is no market, or there are already products out there?! Yes, I used to own a short Caravan, and it is not equal to a mini Honda or Toyota thank you.
"Market exists for lot of things simply because of advertisements and market forces. Media drives life of most people in developed world."
I agree with those statements. However, I don't agree too much when the statement changes slightly to, "The marketers drive life for most people in the developed world." At least, I take issue with that statement if the implication is that they successfully do so by intending to make people want something they definitely do not want at first.
Advertising agencies actually sell the idea that their ideas/concepts/campaign are better than anything the client could come up with. There is rarely a way to prove that until after the fact. Further, even after-the-fact recognition of a particular advertising campaign's success rarely translates reliably into further success.
I'm saying that, while manufacturer's would dearly love to control what people want to buy, their success at doing so is spotty, unpredictable, and pretty much abysmal.
No one has said "no one." I have said that not enough people (yet) want the smaller Toyota and Honda minivans you want. It is an easy thing to prove. Just look back to the smaller Toyota and Honda minivans that they used to sell in the Americas and compare their lack of sales success to the current successes both companies are enjoying from their newer, maxi-minivans....
Have you tried a recent generation short wheelbase Caravan? We have a '96 and it is very quiet smooth, and has served us well since we bought it new. It was a big improvement over our 1985 Caravan, and I would bet the current generation is every bit as good, and with a long drive train warranty, if reliability is your fear.
I had a '96 SWB also. I considered it to be huge, coming out of a Legacy wagon. For a family of 4, there was plenty of room, especially if you took the rear seat, even for vacation and holiday travelling.
Yes, also had a swb 96 coming from sports cars and a subaru wagon. I also enjoyed the utility. Now a 97 Grand Caravan. Reliability has been so so, but e.g. got charged at the dealer $270 to replace the commonly failing radiator fan relay. To replace failed electric lock on sliding door was astronomical too, so I said forget it. Yes, I am considering a new swb Caravan as one option too, but reliability and resale just aren't what the Nissan/Toyota/Honda's I've owned have been (e.g. my 98 Maxima, 0 defects since bought new). I agree, there may be "more" people who would like the larger version. Just like "more" people have a ridiculous amount of debt. That doesn't mean plenty of us wouldn't go down and buy a small cheaper minivan today.
deko_tian, I hope I'm wrong about "The marketers drive life for most people in the developed world", but then there won't be so much obesity by way of consuming junk and salty food, no one would be drinking the absolutely useless cola drinks made mostly from sugar, chemicals and a little bit of caffeine. (Let’s spare the long list)
And, my favorite, there would be a viable energy alternate to Oil. (the whole economy is oil based. Again, let’s not get started on Iraq war)
The "quality of life" as defined in America, collectively by consumers and corporates, is nothing but amazing. A lot of re-thinking is required, unfortunately, almost everyone is hooked up to TV, and saga continues.
badgerfan Honda mini-minivan not be the same as caravan/MPV. Just for the same reason one would buy Odyssey over T&C, I'd want to buy Honda over caravan.
The Microvans are actually a bit smaller than the Caravans, but bigger than the Matrix. It works for a family of four with an OCCASIONAL need for that third row seat and who doesn't want a Caravan or MPV.
Honda issued a press release (june 8,2004) with details on their new Odussey in Australia. Could this be ours '05 too??? They call it an '04 but it is all new???
New Odyssey Arrives with Low Centre of Gravity, Aggressive Styling Honda has redefined the revolutionary Odyssey, creating a wagon with low ground clearance, 2.4-litre DOHC i-VTEC engine, 5-speed sequential shift automatic transmission and four-wheel double wishbone suspension
Oh, com'on weve been through this TOO many damn times!!! If you read a couple pages back you will see why we tired of seeing that ODY OVER ann Over again. But thanx tho!
I know it's not the US version (4 cylinder?), but I see the Odyssey Luxury in Australia offers wood-trimmed interior, with a wood-trimmed steering wheel.
If I remember, bamaboy (still remember him?) stated clear that no wood in the US model.
Why? the pics above looks very nice (the interior).
I would have thought it would be obvious by now that there is a very limited market for small minivans. GM is abandoning the shorter version, the MPV is a minor factor in the market, and the DC short wheelbase versions sells only with heavy discounts and has terrible resale.
Minivans are utilitarian vehicles, the more room they have, the more tasks they can complete. The challenge for the manufacturers is to build in the added size without harming handling, performance, fuel economy, maneuverability and their customers wallets. Honda and Toyota seem to be better at this than some others.
However this is no different than any other segment of the market. When was the last time you saw a pickup advertised bragging that its payload was smaller and it could tow less? Or how about a luxury sedan bragging about its shorter wheelbase, reduced leg room and smaller trunk?
Thanks so much for the info on the offerings. I'm looking at trading in my 2000 Odyssey EX (currently under 33,000 miles) for an 'O5 or '06 Odyssey. I'm wondering what pricing will be on R&N models and which models will also be available with leather?
Although only a family of 4, its so great to have a versatile (large) vehicle that can carry kids and their friends on an outing. If I wanted a smaller vehicle there are lots of choices. A Honda choice would be nice but there are a number of manufactures (USA & Others).
I've also read Honda may be using an engine for this vehicle that conserves fuel -- still regular -- take that Sienna (and a good idea at $2+ and the future looks much higher) by stopping fuel delivery to a number of cylinders when power is not needed.
The Chrysler Pacifica and upcoming Ford Freestyle are effectively small minivans. I think there's a market there...just like there's a market for a wide variety of sizes of SUVs.
There is a market for small minivans just as there is a market for small sedans (Civics, Corollas), and small pickups (Tacomas, Rangers, Frontiers, etc.).
We aren't saying smaller minivans INSTEAD of larger.....we simply want smaller minivans IN ADDITION TO larger. Fer chrissakes, Toyota has 5 different SUV's (and 3 different SUV's under the Lexus banner), but only 1 van? Even Honda, as late as they were to the SUV market, offers two sizes of SUV. Maybe you consider the Element a small minivan but I don't.
Problems with the versions you list:
GM abandoning short version - c'mon, they've essentially abandoned the regular version. Have these things REALLY been updated since the early 'TransPort' days?
MPV is a 'minor factor' simply because Mazda is essentially a minor factor. I wouldn't be surprised if they've got a larger percentage of the minivan market than they did with their old Protege (as % of small sedan market) or 626 (as % of midsize market). How many years since the last MPV update?
DC short wheelbase? Same bulk width-wise and height-wise as the long wheelbase. And here you ARE dealing primarily with domestic buyers where, yes, size is king. This is not necessarily so with import buyers.
I think if they offered something which was a good 6-8" narrower (3 rows of 2 captains chairs; just forget the 3 across requirement), and a good 12-18" shorter (2 rows and lots of luggage space or 3 rows with 0 luggage space) and maybe 3-4" lower, it would be a good seller. For many of us, a midsize sedan offers all the passenger space we need; just not nearly enough storage space. But a small minivan would be just about perfect.
I have the GM 2005 model book. They list the new Uplander available in 2 models - "Regular Wheelbase" and "Extended Wheelbase". GM is not abandoning the shorter version.
I have a '96 Oasis (Odyssey) and it is a wonderfull size. It fits 3 accross in the middle very easily (there is no wheel well in the middle like there is in the rear). It is also much more flexible than most large minivans because it can seat 5 people and still have the rearmost seat folded flat and a ton of cargo space. In the current Odyssey the most cargo space I could have would be behind the third seat with 5 passengers.
It also handles much better than the larger Odyssey, and has 4 normal doors that are very easy to open and close for kids. If they brought a new one to the states I would get one in a heartbeat.
TO me, the closest thing right now to the old Ody is the Highlander. THe Pacifica also seems like a larger scale version of the same basic configuration.
Anyway, a modern version of the old Ody (the infamous JDM model) with the rigth powerplant could do just fine, as a compliment to the Ody, and an alternative to the Pilot "suv".
I always thought the previous Honda Odyssey was a station wagon. There is no way minivan has four swing out doors like cars. According to the E.P.A. and Edmunds, the Chrysler Pacific is classified as a large wagon and not under van class. I think the key factor is the absent of the sliding door(s) and the body style. And Ford Freestyle is just another mid-size cross-over SUV.
the older units get picked up pretty quickly. i bet a re-introduction of a mini-van/wagon of those proportions from Honda would do well.
prediction: someday people will wake up and say (hopefully demand) - less automation, less gimics, less complexity, just give us the safety and fuel economy in a reasonably sized, resonably priced, reliable vehicle please and thank you.
those of us asking for smaller vans are asking that we get them in ADDITION TO the larger vans such as the Odyssey, Town & Country, Grand Caravan, Relay, Montana SV6 and Sienna.
Having something like the Toyota Wish, Mitsubishi Grandis, Toyota Avensis or JDM Honda Odyssey would be nice to many of us who have small, cramped garages in areas where housing costs are rising rapidly. Plus, we'd like to be able to parallel park in the city easier than parking with our current big mega sized minivans. (Getting an Odyssey into a parallel parking spot is no easy task)
And when gas prices rise, I'm sure many people will agree with us (the people asking for small vans now) and they will demand smaller vans in the future.
First - I believe the short GM van is limited to Canada.
Second - The assumption that smaller means better fuel economy is suspect. The Pacifica is much smaller and more expensive than a typical DC minivan. Yet it weighs a lot and gets only slightly better mileage. No surprise it was a sales disappointment.
Third - I'm not arguing that there is not a market for smaller vans, just a very limited one. The minivan market is very competitive and probably not very profitable for several manufacturers. To expect them to expend design and tooling dollars on a smaller version that will sell at even smaller volumes and therefore be even less profitable - is simply unrealistic.
Finally - Some basic math for those people who think that high gas prices will cause people to buy smaller more fuel efficent vehicles. At 20 mpg for 15,000 miles per year you require 750 gallons. At $3.00 per gallon that is $2250. If you buy a vehicle with 20% better fuel economy -24 mpg - your annual cost would be $1875. That's $375 per year difference. That's a little over $7 per week. Compared to the monthly payments, insurance and other expenses, it is not very significant. If $7 per week more would make people buy fuel efficient vehicles, then why are all these people buying SUV's instead of economy cars which get double the fuel economy?
I'm all for people buying fuel efficient vehicles, but even $3 gas probably won't do it. Although it might finally bring diesels back to mass production.
The Pacifica is an anomoly at 4,800 lbs. The JDM Odyssey is closer to 3,500 lbs, or about 300-400 lbs more than an Accord or Camry. Yes it is true that smaller does not mean better mileage, but all things being equel it does mean better mileage. Things compound quickly. Less frontal area, less weight - means you need a smaller engine which in turn means a further reduction in weight. My '96 "Odyssey" gets about 30 mpg going just under 70 mph. This is with the old 2.2 liter engine and a 4 speed tranny. The new 2.4 is significantly more efficient and more powerfull to boot.
With a properly geared 5 speed tranny, I can see the new JDM Odyssey getting close to 35 mpg on the highway here (again driven under 70 mph) I also do not think we should get rid of the larger minivan, just offer a choice.
Yes, and 5cents a minute calling plans are only 60 cents a week cheaper than...so no-one would switch from MCI to Sprint to ATT...?! When $40 a fillup jumps to $60, people won't mind.
More Flawed Thinking: Anyone old enough here to remember... 1970s "no one will buy a compact car, bigger is better" "look at a vega or pinto, this is proof" 80s "who needs a mini pickup?!" "look, no chevy Luv's are selling" 90s "the biggest SUV or Pickup is the only answer" compared to the S-10 or miniblazer?! 2000s "who needs a smaller minivan?" "...hatchbacks,caravan and mpv" I point to the "proof" in the popular products that came after the 'no one needs...' corollas and civics, toyota mini trucks, CRV RAV4, and To Be Determined on the minivan side. No, I drove a new MPV last week. It doesn't count as a successful product. We must have a Toyota or Honda (maybe Nissan) product built decently to "prove" if it will or won't sell.
It would be splendid if Honda offered two wheelbases like Chrysler. However, Honda is not as big as Chrysler and they won't go for it purely for monetary reasons. Based on past success, Honda will have only a long wheelbase for the US market and probably won't have a shorter wheelbase Acura minivan either.
Honda and Toyota have the best marketing and product development people around. The number of new products in new niches that Toyota has introduced over the past few years is staggering. They've obviously looked at smaller minivan versions and have decided not to build one here. If there was a large enough market to profitably build one, Toyota would have by now. Honda, Toyota, Ford and Nissan, have all recently introducted or will soon introduce new vans, none with a smaller version. Unless you know something these companies don't, you probably should just accept the reality of the situation.
Yeah, when bamaboy said the new Ody will not have any woodtrim, I was crushed. I love woodtrim, even if they are fake like Acura and Infiniti. But oh, well. I don't like it or agree, but I can understand if Honda does not like to put woodtrim in the new Ody. If the market majority does not want woodtrim, then Honda has to do what it has to do to make money and cut losses. But yeah, wheter anybody likes it or not, the big players will go with long wheelbases only---Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Chrysler.
At 3500 pounds, a small Odyssey would be about 700 pounds less than the current version. A 17% weight reduction. If fuel economy increased comparably with the same v-6 engine and 5 speed tranny that would get you up to EPA ratings of 21/29 mpg from the current 18/25. Going to a 4 banger might add another 2 mpg to that at the cost of a substantial drop off in performance, smoothness, and quietness. To expect 35 mph without sacrificing these other factors, I think you would have to get down below 3000 pounds. Something that would be quite an engineering feat and great to see. But I wouldn't hold your breath.
By the way, you were very kind in descrbing the Pacifica's weight as "an anomoly" I think egineering malpractice would be a more accurate term. DC did the same thing wiht Jeep Liberty, a "compact SUV" that weighs only 4100+ pounds!
The market slot for smaller vans is really being filled by crossovers IMO. What's really the difference between a highlander and a compact Sienna other than how the rear doors open? The PT cruiser, Matrix, Element, etc. also are playing to the same niche (affordable, compact, flexible use of space).
I am talking about actual mileage not EPA - I would not expect an EPA number of 35, maybe 31 or thereabouts. The current Accord with the 2.4 gets near 40 mpg on the highway (33-34 EPA). I think 35 mpg would be quite reasonable for the JDM Odyssey with a few hundred pounds more weight and a little more wind resistance.
BTW Honda says the Odyssey is 43-4400 lbs or 8-900 lbs more, not 700.
.......sorry to break the news, but there already is a "Mini Van" on the market and it's called the Mazda MPV. You're all on to something though, sales are way up this year!
Now does anyone have any new info on the 05' Odyssey or what?
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Comments
Price. It's going to slot in under the Civic in terms of MSRP. It has nothing to do with size - Honda has nothing to offer entry level buyers NA buyers who are going to Rios, Accents, Echos, Cavaliers, Neons, et al.
IMHO, it'll be the latter:
http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_cod- e=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=07906976
The current Odyssey is 201.2" long x 75.6" wide.
And SUVs are even bigger in sizes.
We all have different opinions. Some like smaller minivans, and some like larger vans. Some like woodtrims and some don't. I don't think the new Ody will please 100% of the people just like the Sienna does not please everyone. But based on the trends, minivans are not getting smaller. They are getting larger in overall size and engine size. I think the majority of us literally want MORE for our money, not LESS.
The new Ody will be at least as large as the current Ody in terms of interior room.
Some of us would like LESS of HONDA van, may be for LESS of the SAME money. Usually driving a large vehicle is less fun (driving pleasure point of view), and cumbersome to drive/park in cities like Boston.
I think a manufacturer that offers two sizes of minivans will appeal to a lot of people. People coming in to look at the smaller model might move up to the bigger one, and small families used to a bigger minivan may be suprised to see that the smaller one fits them fine while adding handling, maneuverability and economy.
Funny thing is, I still don't understand the phenomenon of the SUV. They can have them in small, medium and large scale or 5+ different sizes. And they can have them in luxury, car or truck based, crossover or even convertible. Don't we have two sized of the Caravan already? And we can only have them short or long, wider or taller.
My dealer tells me their first 2005 Odyssey orders are being submitted tomorrow with anticipated delivery the last week in August or first in September.
The one exception was the super-long-lived Mustang that did actually get smaller during the gas-scare mid-1970's, but then so did it's sales figures. It wasn't long before they started growing the Mustang bigger again too. Now, I'll admit, the nostalgia appeal has driven the Mustang back to approximately original size.
But, recognizing the exception as proving the rule, look elsewhere and you'll see the automotive equivalent of a thyroid condition on most models.
Americans like and have always liked conspicuous consumption ("Keep up with the Jones."). If it isn't bigger, then it has to be impractical in some other way to show that we can afford it.
And it isn't just us. Look at societies (now as well as the past) where working outside meant tanned skin for the poor. In those, lighter skin is a status symbol. In developed countries where most people are forced to work INside out of the sun, the reverse is true: having a tan symbolizes the wealth and leisure time available to be able to lay in the sun. Even the skin cancer scare hasn't stopped it. It has just meant that you can afford the spray/spread-on artificial tans.
And now, class, for the Sociology 101 pop quiz, write a 500 word essay on the effect of cell phones on those under 20, those 20 to 35, and the old fogies.... ;-)
Also notice that many of the varieties of "SUVs" available are simply attempts to relabel vehicles that could just as easily be called station wagons or minivans. Of course, the latter (true?) labels are not popular in America right now (though anything can change) and will not sell as well called what they are.
If Americans really wanted mini-minivans (not what the socially/environmentally-conscious want to tell Americans to want!), they would be available and there would be competition to sell them. I trust in manufacturer's/dealer's greed to make available anything they can profit from offering. No profit. No availability. And remember, with the current competitive environment, profit often comes only with scale. It's hard to make money unless many people will truly buy it.
One more thing. It's easy to say that "many" people want something. Many people say so. However, many of those saying they will do one thing, when it comes time to open their wallets, will buy something else entirely. Wisely, manufacturer's try to make the products that actually get bought, rather than those people simply say they will buy! ;-)
2005 ODYSSEY 5DR LX 5AT
2005 ODYSSEY 5DR EX 5AT
2005 ODYSSEY 5DR EX-L 5AT
2005 ODYSSEY 5DR EX-L RES 5AT
2005 ODYSSEY 5DR EX-L R&N 5AT
2005 ODYSSEY 5DR TOURING 5AT
2005 ODYSSEY 5DR TOURING R&N 5AT
Note: RES denotes Rear Entertainment System (DVD)
R&N denotes RES + Navi
Available Color Combos:
BE/IV - Desert Rock Metallic / Ivory
BK/BK - Nitehawk Black Pearl / Black
BL/BK - Ocean Mist Metallic / Black
BM/GR - Midnight Blue Pearl / Gray
BX/IV - Nitehawk Black Pearl / Ivory
GN/BK - Slate Green Metallic / Black
GX/OL - Slate Green Metallic / Olive
GY/IV - Sage Brush Pearl / Ivory
GZ/OL - Sage Brush Pearl / Olive
RE/IV - Redrock Pearl / Ivory
SI/BK - Silver Pearl Metallic / Black
SX/GR - Silver Pearl Metallic / Gray
WH/IV - Tafetta White / Ivory
That might to be nice to have a fold-flat 2nd row and 3rd row.
Obviously there is a lot more cost in making a vehicle technically advance but less incremental cost in simply stretching a vehicle from 186" to 200", besides, it will cost a lot more to Honda to make available a choice of two wheelbases, along with myriad of configurations. Irony is that consumers will have to pay more per foot to have a choice here because it will cost more to manufacturer/maintain two set of inventories while not adding any new buyers.
Market exists for a variety of vehicles if made available at a reasonable cost. If bigger is forced to make better (hence it would cost more) then people will buy smaller (and cheaper), just like in Europe and most of the rest of the world. In America, most big American SUVs are technology dinosaurs but have managed to retain market share because they (are allowed to) sell “More for Less”. (Shell we bring in references to Oil/Iraq now?)
Market exists for lot of things simply because of advertisements and market forces. Media drives life of most people in developed world.
I've looked at the "options". They aren't too attractive. The Matrix isn't so cheap, but quality and content don't strike you as impressive. Also it is a hatchback, not a minivan. It might be a fair comparison in a stationwagon analogy, but not equal to a micro minivan.
My GrandCaravan needs replacing, and I want something smaller with better reliability. It's hard to fit in my garage, and not the easiest in parking lots either. I looked at the new Sienna and it and Odysey are too large for what I want. The pricing of each also is reasonable (given size and content), but why not offer something smaller and cheaper?
Yes, I am headed over to look at an MPV now, but would prefer a Honda or Toyota offering. I only came here to see if the 05 would be smaller and worth waiting for. Guess not.
Oh, please do reply and tell me more how no-one wants a smaller offering and there is no market, or there are already products out there?!
Yes, I used to own a short Caravan, and it is not equal to a mini Honda or Toyota thank you.
I agree with those statements. However, I don't agree too much when the statement changes slightly to, "The marketers drive life for most people in the developed world." At least, I take issue with that statement if the implication is that they successfully do so by intending to make people want something they definitely do not want at first.
Advertising agencies actually sell the idea that their ideas/concepts/campaign are better than anything the client could come up with. There is rarely a way to prove that until after the fact. Further, even after-the-fact recognition of a particular advertising campaign's success rarely translates reliably into further success.
I'm saying that, while manufacturer's would dearly love to control what people want to buy, their success at doing so is spotty, unpredictable, and pretty much abysmal.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I agree, there may be "more" people who would like the larger version. Just like "more" people have a ridiculous amount of debt. That doesn't mean plenty of us wouldn't go down and buy a small cheaper minivan today.
And, my favorite, there would be a viable energy alternate to Oil. (the whole economy is oil based. Again, let’s not get started on Iraq war)
The "quality of life" as defined in America, collectively by consumers and corporates, is nothing but amazing. A lot of re-thinking is required, unfortunately, almost everyone is hooked up to TV, and saga continues.
badgerfan
Honda mini-minivan not be the same as caravan/MPV. Just for the same reason one would buy Odyssey over T&C, I'd want to buy Honda over caravan.
Have a great weekend!
New Odyssey Arrives with Low Centre of Gravity, Aggressive Styling
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http://www.honda.com.au/discover+honda/news+and+events/press+rele- ases/new+odyssey+arrives+with+low+centre+of+gravity,+aggressive+s- tyling.htm
http://www.honda.com.au/flash.htm
If I remember, bamaboy (still remember him?) stated clear that no wood in the US model.
Why? the pics above looks very nice (the interior).
Minivans are utilitarian vehicles, the more room they have, the more tasks they can complete. The challenge for the manufacturers is to build in the added size without harming handling, performance, fuel economy, maneuverability and their customers wallets. Honda and Toyota seem to be better at this than some others.
However this is no different than any other segment of the market. When was the last time you saw a pickup advertised bragging that its payload was smaller and it could tow less? Or how about a luxury sedan bragging about its shorter wheelbase, reduced leg room and smaller trunk?
Although only a family of 4, its so great to have a versatile (large) vehicle that can carry kids and their friends on an outing. If I wanted a smaller vehicle there are lots of choices. A Honda choice would be nice but there are a number of manufactures (USA & Others).
I've also read Honda may be using an engine for this vehicle that conserves fuel -- still regular -- take that Sienna (and a good idea at $2+ and the future looks much higher) by stopping fuel delivery to a number of cylinders when power is not needed.
We aren't saying smaller minivans INSTEAD of larger.....we simply want smaller minivans IN ADDITION TO larger. Fer chrissakes, Toyota has 5 different SUV's (and 3 different SUV's under the Lexus banner), but only 1 van? Even Honda, as late as they were to the SUV market, offers two sizes of SUV. Maybe you consider the Element a small minivan but I don't.
Problems with the versions you list:
GM abandoning short version - c'mon, they've essentially abandoned the regular version. Have these things REALLY been updated since the early 'TransPort' days?
MPV is a 'minor factor' simply because Mazda is essentially a minor factor. I wouldn't be surprised if they've got a larger percentage of the minivan market than they did with their old Protege (as % of small sedan market) or 626 (as % of midsize market). How many years since the last MPV update?
DC short wheelbase? Same bulk width-wise and height-wise as the long wheelbase. And here you ARE dealing primarily with domestic buyers where, yes, size is king. This is not necessarily so with import buyers.
I think if they offered something which was a good 6-8" narrower (3 rows of 2 captains chairs; just forget the 3 across requirement), and a good 12-18" shorter (2 rows and lots of luggage space or 3 rows with 0 luggage space) and maybe 3-4" lower, it would be a good seller. For many of us, a midsize sedan offers all the passenger space we need; just not nearly enough storage space. But a small minivan would be just about perfect.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
It also handles much better than the larger Odyssey, and has 4 normal doors that are very easy to open and close for kids. If they brought a new one to the states I would get one in a heartbeat.
Anyway, a modern version of the old Ody (the infamous JDM model) with the rigth powerplant could do just fine, as a compliment to the Ody, and an alternative to the Pilot "suv".
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
prediction: someday people will wake up and say (hopefully demand) - less automation, less gimics, less complexity, just give us the safety and fuel economy in a reasonably sized, resonably priced, reliable vehicle please and thank you.
Having something like the Toyota Wish, Mitsubishi Grandis, Toyota Avensis or JDM Honda Odyssey would be nice to many of us who have small, cramped garages in areas where housing costs are rising rapidly. Plus, we'd like to be able to parallel park in the city easier than parking with our current big mega sized minivans. (Getting an Odyssey into a parallel parking spot is no easy task)
And when gas prices rise, I'm sure many people will agree with us (the people asking for small vans now) and they will demand smaller vans in the future.
Second - The assumption that smaller means better fuel economy is suspect. The Pacifica is much smaller and more expensive than a typical DC minivan. Yet it weighs a lot and gets only slightly better mileage. No surprise it was a sales disappointment.
Third - I'm not arguing that there is not a market for smaller vans, just a very limited one. The minivan market is very competitive and probably not very profitable for several manufacturers. To expect them to expend design and tooling dollars on a smaller version that will sell at even smaller volumes and therefore be even less profitable - is simply unrealistic.
Finally - Some basic math for those people who think that high gas prices will cause people to buy smaller more fuel efficent vehicles. At 20 mpg for 15,000 miles per year you require 750 gallons. At $3.00 per gallon that is $2250. If you buy a vehicle with 20% better fuel economy -24 mpg - your annual cost would be $1875. That's $375 per year difference. That's a little over $7 per week. Compared to the monthly payments, insurance and other expenses, it is not very significant. If $7 per week more would make people buy fuel efficient vehicles, then why are all these people buying SUV's instead of economy cars which get double the fuel economy?
I'm all for people buying fuel efficient vehicles, but even $3 gas probably won't do it. Although it might finally bring diesels back to mass production.
With a properly geared 5 speed tranny, I can see the new JDM Odyssey getting close to 35 mpg on the highway here (again driven under 70 mph)
I also do not think we should get rid of the larger minivan, just offer a choice.
When $40 a fillup jumps to $60, people won't mind.
More Flawed Thinking:
Anyone old enough here to remember...
1970s "no one will buy a compact car, bigger is better" "look at a vega or pinto, this is proof"
80s "who needs a mini pickup?!" "look, no chevy Luv's are selling"
90s "the biggest SUV or Pickup is the only answer" compared to the S-10 or miniblazer?!
2000s "who needs a smaller minivan?" "...hatchbacks,caravan and mpv"
I point to the "proof" in the popular products that came after the 'no one needs...'
corollas and civics, toyota mini trucks, CRV RAV4, and To Be Determined on the minivan side. No, I drove a new MPV last week. It doesn't count as a successful product. We must have a Toyota or Honda (maybe Nissan) product built decently to "prove" if it will or won't sell.
However, Honda is not as big as Chrysler and they won't go for it purely for monetary reasons.
Based on past success, Honda will have only a long wheelbase for the US market and probably won't have a shorter wheelbase Acura minivan either.
If the market majority does not want woodtrim, then Honda has to do what it has to do to make money and cut losses.
But yeah, wheter anybody likes it or not, the big players will go with long wheelbases only---Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Chrysler.
By the way, you were very kind in descrbing the Pacifica's weight as "an anomoly" I think egineering malpractice would be a more accurate term. DC did the same thing wiht Jeep Liberty, a "compact SUV" that weighs only 4100+ pounds!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I am certain the GVWR is over 6000 lbs, but I don't know what the actual vehicle weight is.
BTW Honda says the Odyssey is 43-4400 lbs or 8-900 lbs more, not 700.
Now does anyone have any new info on the 05' Odyssey or what?
We don't know jack.
Nothing but rumors and how its going to have a Touring luxury model w/NAV+DVD.