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Comments
Fred
Furthermore, my buying experience was very satisfying. I purchased this car at Smithtown Acura through the Internet Manager for $27,500 +TTL. I also received mud flaps, wheel locks and 1st oil change for that price. I think this car offers extremely attractive value for this price given all the options included. Net Net...Very happy with the choice I made. Will keep you updated.
I'd like to take full credit for phenomenal negotiating skills, but have to give a large part of the credit to the dealer for what we believe is a scam that backfired.
Within the first five minutes we had a firm price for the TSX w/ navigation for 26.8K complete--taxes and fees included. During the final phase they talked my partner into an extended warranty along with a Lo Jack.
My partner had a ceiling price and rejected the extended warranty and Lo Jack because it brought the price of the car above her ceiling price. It is imperative at this point to let you know that the computer printed worksheet had our price for the car along with the fees and taxes.
The salesman kept dropping the price for the extended warranty to the point that the warranty and Lo Jack were less than what the initial offer for the extended warranty alone. My partner said, "You know my ceiling. I can't go above that." The salesman responded with a price for everything and it was below her ceiling price. She said, "Okay."
We were shuttled back to the manager who printed up the long form sales contract and we gave him a check for the balance and we were handed back the keys.
Three days later the Acura manager called to say that they need to renegotiate the contract because they forgot to include sales tax. Those guys wanted $2K more. My first reaction was to call my attorney, who told me that the same thing happened to a secretary in his office. He gave me the same advice he gave her, "Forget about it."
Over the next few days they called and asked that we come back in to sign a new contract. That's when I started to look at the paper work in detail and realized that the sales tax was on the computer printed work sheet used by the salesman for negotiating the extended warranty and Lo Jack. He had to manually remove the sales tax from the computer. He was also under the impression that we were financing the car.
When I spoke with the manager regarding the matter he told me that they have to collect the sales for the state--that it is the law. I kindly reminded him that the state board of equalization only requires that the dealership pay the sales tax and there is no law that they must collect it from the buyer. He then told me that they had no intention of registering the car without us paying the sales tax. There was no point in arguing with him.
Today the manager called and we advised him that we have turned the matter over to my attorney and if he has anything to discuss that he should take it up with him. At that point he said that we didn't have to pay the sales tax if we didn't want to, but they would like a new contract signed. That's when we advised them to fax a copy to the attorney so it could be reviewed. So far no fax has been sent.
I have no proof and this is purely an opinion. The only reason to have a new contract is to cover their tracks. IF, in fact, this is a scam then they don't want the contract sitting in a file in case of any investigation. Maybe there is a legitimate reason for a revised contract, but at this point I don't think so.
I realize the key is dealer inventory, so my question is really assuming there *are* 2005's burning a hole in their inventories.
Depending on what kind of deal I could get, I may hold out for a 2006.
** How much would it have cost to get extended warranty?
** When does it make sense to purchase?
** Looking at another board, sometimes it makes sense to buy at year 2.
** Any other thoughts?
Also...another item...did you all see that it suggest that the first oil change be performed AFTER 10k miles? Anybody has any idea why not before 10k?
TSX...great car.
Negotiations for the Ext. Warranty started at 2.3K and concluded at 1.6K. Also bought Lo Jack at $695--probably could have shaved that down a bit but was happy with the deal.
A lot of people argue against extended warranties and for the most part I agree. In the case of the TSX, my partner intends to keep the car and the price she paid works out to $535 for each additional year. Because of the advanced electronics it seemed like a reasonable fee to pay for the added protection.
- Eric
Fred
TSX Longhorn
For example, trunk tray, all-weather mats, wheel locks, mud guards. Of those accessories, I can highly recommend the trunk tray and all-weather mats.
I'm also a longhorn, BTW.
After paying cash we have discovered a scam that we haven't heard of before. My attorney says that he had an assistant who financed a new car and fell victim to the same scam. He gave us both the same advice--don't pay.
It works like this:
The sales tax is omitted "accidently" from the contract. If you finance they hold up the paper work. If you pay cash they hold up the registration. They tell you that you need to come in to re-negotiate the contract.
The computer printed worksheet shows the full amount for the state tax and fees, which means that it had to be manually removed.
The attorney says that he suspects that they get away with it because most people will visit an attorney and be told, "My fees will cost more than that to fight it. I'd advise you to just pay it."
Has anyone else run into this type of scam? It's really surprising that Honda allows a dealership with such practices to stay in business.
Not that BBB.org is the answer but it certainly helps to check on a business' public relations. Especially, good to know when you are gonna pay someone 30k.
Mike :shades:
The latest is that the attorney requested a copy of the original and proposed revised contract along with a letter of explanation from the manager. The new contract sent to the attorney by the Acura manager is actually a finance agreement and included an additional 2 grand for the sales tax.
Why the manager would expect a signature on a finance agreement for a car we paid cash for is absurd. The checks have already cleared the bank. I can where see someone who financed a purchase would really be out on a limb. It really does appear that the ploy depends on the customer being told by the attorney that it will cost more to fight it and would be cheaper to just pay it.
The manager continues to threaten not to register the car unless the agreement is signed. I'm not an attorney, but it seems that he has moved into extortion.
What the manager doesn't understand is the buyer at one time worked for the head of Honda Corp. in Torrance CA and still has the ability to reach the people who handle dealerships. It seems that the manager compounds his problem on a weekly basis. A finance agreement for a cash purchase is just too much.
Without nav the wholesale price is $24,538 (again, that's in Calif.). I got a price quote for the same car for $24,800, so from my reference the dealer is asking too much for a demo. For what it's worth I'd calculate the percentage 5K miles represent from the total miles covered under warranty, then double the percentage and deduct that percentage from the wholesale price--assuming that the car is in perfect condition. That would be my set point--meaning I wouldn't go higher than that.
I'd then go about a grand below that figure as my target price.
For what it's worth.
Anyways, I got the car today and love it. Makes all the frustration go away. BTW, I got a set of wheel locks thrown in..whatever...I don't need gifts I just want good service.
I was close to writing up a complaint about my experience but I figured it was not as dire as other problems people might have. So Rallye gets a pass from me. I would recommend them even still.
:shades:
Paragon Acura = 48 complaints in last 36 months
All Acura Dealers in NYS = less than 48 complaints combined!!!
The TSX is an all around wonderful car, esp for the money, if your in the market to buy one I highly recommend it, however do not become a victim like me at Paragon Acura. Lets close this matter once and for all
Marc
At the time it made sense. After all we had the car and they had no way of knowing for sure that the checks were good.
The day that the checks cleared the bank the dealership manager called to say that we hadn't paid sales tax and wanted to negotiate a new contract. He FAXed the new contract to my attorney and and lo-and-behold it was a finance contract that included the sales tax as well the price paid for the car.
The attorney phoned today to say that he had a little 'chat' with the manager and reminded him that they were his contracts and he handles them on a daily basis were little ole' us have dealt with only one of Acura's contracts. He's an excellent attorney and by the end of the conversation the manager agreed to eat the sales tax, which should bring an end of the matter--that is until we go over the matter with Acura Corp. in Torrance, CA.
Only the dealership knows for certain if this was an honest mistake or scam. The attorney has seen sales tax omitted from dealerships sales agreements before. He suspects that the reason they were okay signing the original agreement was because they were hoping that the larger check would bounce and they could easily sell the finance agreement with a $5,000 profit since the interest rate on the agreement was 22.3%. The attorney in some many words got the manager to admit that they have sold finance contracts with those kinds of percentages. In the attorney's words they were so busy scamming that they tripped over themselves and got spanked!
The sad truth is that to fight this type of scam for all 16 rounds usually ends up costing more than the $2,000 sales tax that was omitted on the agreement, so most often the buyer is advised by their attorney to pay up and avoid attorney and court cost. If the buyer goes with financing they are told, "hey, it's only an additional $20 per month" which doesn't seem like that much.
I hope that this will give other buyers a leg up if they are caught by this (IMHO) scam.
It does sound like you got a heck of a deal, though.
Congratulations on your new car, however you got it.
BTW the salespeople were great--although none of them at the dealership knew anything about the telescoping steering wheel. Ironically, it was this one feature that put the sale over the top because the regular driver of the vehicle has had neck surgery and her comfort while driving was the most critical aspect of a new car purchase.
I could've saved upto $600, but figured Wayne Acura's charging only $200 over invoice, so figured they won't throw in cassette ($300; yes, I wanted it!) & wheel locks ($45). Besides, I couldn't wait! =D
Only complaint: offer an audio-in jack for mp3 players, so I don't have to use cassette/fm adapters, which are not only cumbersome, but have degraded audio quality. And how come TL's bluetooth doesn't work with my Treo 650?!!
Quotes:
NY dealer:
Acura of Manhattan: $26,235 (incl dest.) for 2005 Carbon Gray / Ebony (auto; no nav).
NJ dealers:
Open Road Acura of Wayne: $25,552 (incl dest.); 2 weeks wait.
Acura of Ramsey: $25,895 (incl dest.); silver/ebony in stock.
DCH Acura of Montclaire: $26,155 (incl dest.).
Park Ave Acura of Rochelle Park: $26,500 (incl dest.); 3 weeks wait.
Fred
Also, how do you acura to tint the windows prior to picking up the car? Is it possbile to negotiate that?
6-speed TSX non-navi
36-month lease 12k/miles per year
Zero down- only inception fees-
$325/month including taxes
I think you got a pretty good deal.
I'm currently looking for TSX.
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Cash Price for vehicle and assec. $29,095
State fees $239.75
We paid cash for the vehicle so any additional fees for the vehicle don't apply.
You'll have to read my previous post on what we feel was a scam, which involved the dealer removing the sales tax from the final agreement (the sales tax was in the computer initially).