Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

fintail

It's really hard to find a truly fully loaded C, not sure if I have seen one outside of an AMG car. I think lease payments are a huge influence on what is built to sit on the lot. Once they get into the 50s, I think there's a lot of buyer resistance - where 10K more will get you a decent E.

I love the column shift in the E, it's where an automatic belongs. Frees up console space and makes the car feel more spacious and airy. The movement is different, but it quickly becomes muscle memory.

stickguy

the problem is until you get used to it I suppose. Because it really looks like a wiper stalk!

stickguy

the problem is until you get used to it I suppose. Because it really looks like a wiper stalk!

fintail

Yeah, one would need to get used to it. I am used to MB layouts - wiper stalk is always on the left (or dash in vintage cars).

ab348

Most GM cars have the wiper stalk on the right side now but back when they still had cars like the Impala and Lacrosse available with a column shift lever, they incorporated the wiper controls on the left side as a twist control on the end of the turn signal multifunction stalk. Never liked that design so much.

pensfan83

28firefighter said:

Mercedes does do service loaner leases - no more support for 2016, but you could still lease a 2017 service loaner.

A couple recent posts on a leasing board that @pensfan83 and I frequent are showing that folks have been getting in the low-mid 300s on a 2017 C300 service loaner if you're willing to put down max MSDs (10 I believe with MBFS). MSRPs range from upper 40s to upper 50s.

Some of those folks score some pretty good deals on Mercedes C and E Class. They seem to be one of the better luxury brands to lease right now, along with the S90 and XC90.

pensfan83

Marcothecarguy1986 said:

@pensfan83 Steve! keep the deal you did agree on forget that other dealer! he should have made you that deal from day one you are doing the rite thing! so what color combo and options are you going to be getting?

It's the TLX A-Spec so pretty much loaded with all the safety nannies, upgraded stereo, heated/ventilated seats, nav, etc . The only thing it's missing from the Advance I wouldn't mind having is the surround view camera. The car is white w/black interior.

stickguy

so, after looking at stuff today, I am definitely interested in just buying. As long as interest rates are low enough to make stretching payments out reasonable. Just need to decide what I want to put down, and what payment to back into what I can pay, then figure out if anything I want qualifies! Drawing the line at MY 2016 at the earliest though. Or new. Unless of course I run into something where the lease incentives are too good to pass up!

actually, still a chance to find one of those rare deals where the lease incentives are so good, it might be worth leasing to buy! Will always look into that financing option (aka the deferred down payment plan).

28firefighter

stickguy said:

so, after looking at stuff today, I am definitely interested in just buying. As long as interest rates are low enough to make stretching payments out reasonable. Just need to decide what I want to put down, and what payment to back into what I can pay, then figure out if anything I want qualifies! Drawing the line at MY 2016 at the earliest though. Or new. Unless of course I run into something where the lease incentives are too good to pass up! actually, still a chance to find one of those rare deals where the lease incentives are so good, it might be worth leasing to buy! Will always look into that financing option (aka the deferred down payment plan).

Something worth checking out is the Volvo S90 as @pensfan83 mentioned. Seeing some of them leasing in that low to mid 300 range for cars with MSRPs north of $50k. 

stickguy

must be some huge incentives to pull that off. Or lots of money down which I am not doing!

the S90 though is a real barge. Wonder if they will be desperate to get rid of S60s? I really like those too. Saw a bunch of 2017s today with right about 10K miles, listed in the $24,995 range. Only problem is they are missing the vision package, which I consider a must have.

but a decently equipped S90, for a price I can handle, would be tough to say no to!

28firefighter

Most all of the S90 deals are first month drive off or first month plus MSDs. One of the big incentives is a $3000 rebate for being a Costco members. Agree though, it's big. 

Michaell

I'm not sure what's driving it, but @kyfdx and I have seen a pretty substantial uptick in the number of lease queries we are getting on Volvo.

The whole range, not just the SUVs.

S60's are leasing crazy well at the moment. Ginormous lease incentives that offset a pitifully low residual.

Same with the S90's - big lease incentives.

Something to look into ....

au1994

Michaell said:

I'm not sure what's driving it, but @kyfdx and I have seen a pretty substantial uptick in the number of lease queries we are getting on Volvo. The whole range, not just the SUVs. S60's are leasing crazy well at the moment. Ginormous lease incentives that offset a pitifully low residual. Same with the S90's - big lease incentives. Something to look into ....

There were some good numbers on the S60 last month when I was shopping. I gave it a good look. The tech is a little behind since the model platform is pretty old but I found it a great drive, plenty of power and of course great seats. I fell for the X1 and got a great deal on it and the trade most importantly. Otherwise I'd probably have the S60 now.

those are great numbers on the S90. I love the styling but it is big. Not what i was looking for right now.

au1994

Speaking of the X1, after a month I'm very happy.

im getting about 26 mpg in a lot of stop and go driving. It's very comfortable with great sight lines. Doesn't sit SUV high but certainly higher then the 3 I traded.  The power from the turbo 4 is well suited for the car and it handles great. Comparable to the GTI I test drove. Although I'm sure the GTI would be better when pushed harder.

love the big pano sunroof as well. With it open and the windows down, I almost don't miss the convertible.

benjaminh

Volvo more or less dropped off my radar when imho they stopped looking like Volvos, about ten years ago, which was back in the Ford era. And since they were bought by that Chinese company I've not really paid attention. But looking at the S90 on the Volvo website, I see that like Mercedes it has an impressive interior design. The S60 seems more ordinary, but certainly nice enough. With the big US factory that Volvo is now building it seems that they are ready to buy some market share and get back in the game, no matter how much it costs. Currently Volvo has incentives/rebates on the S90, according their website, of $5,500. And, in addition, if you currently lease a VW or Audi they will take over your lease for as much as 6 months...

The Volvo S90 has a length of 195.4 inches, which is slightly longer than an E-class (193.8) or BMW 5-series (194.6). The 2018 Accord is 192.1 inches long.

benjaminh

Alex on Autos on S90....He calls it his top pick in the segment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne8xTH8i2qk

stickguy

Hopefully s60 lease incentives carry over into October. I do like these, so worth a look.

Huge incentives and low residuals to get low payment works nicely in the lease to buy plan.

I'm seeing quite a few low miles 2017 S60s for sale below $25k, but they just don't have the vision package so have to be excluded.

au1994

stickguy said:

Hopefully s60 lease incentives carry over into October. I do like these, so worth a look. Huge incentives and low residuals to get low payment works nicely in the lease to buy plan. I'm seeing quite a few low miles 2017 S60s for sale below $25k, but they just don't have the vision package so have to be excluded.

You've got to watch the option packages. I was shocked to see that things like heated seats, back up camera and even a power passenger seat were not standard.

stickguy

After playing with the calculator, decided to set a cap of $25,000 for next car. At the top, new or no older than 2016. With a sliding scale below that (cheaper can be older). Intent being to have a cut off of age at loan end point of 7 years (max term 60 months used, 72 new).

So a 2016 CPO could be 5 year loan, 2015 4, and 2010 paid in cash! New could go 6 years if subsidized rate. This keeps payments about same and car paid off at same age. In every case, would look to pay off in 3 years anyway.

Will also consider, if the numbers make sense, a lease to buy deal, since that is really the same as taking out a 6 year loan and paying off after 3 years!

If nothing else, will get a nicer car than if just doing a cheap "throw away" lease for basic transport.

And as soon as paid off, can finally upgrade the wife's car which will be 8 YO by then.

graphicguy

fintail said:

It's really hard to find a truly fully loaded C, not sure if I have seen one outside of an AMG car. I think lease payments are a huge influence on what is built to sit on the lot. Once they get into the 50s, I think there's a lot of buyer resistance - where 10K more will get you a decent E.

I love the column shift in the E, it's where an automatic belongs. Frees up console space and makes the car feel more spacious and airy. The movement is different, but it quickly becomes muscle memory.

Or, you can get a TLX with buttons instead of a stalk to shift the automatic....;)

Here’s another intersecting take on Mercedes’

https://youtu.be/5J7-W6tDXl0

stickguy

A free one of those will still not be cheap

fintail

Those buttons are kind of funky - seems different for the sake of being different. But still more appealing to my eyes than a manual-looking shift lever, especially an automatic in a manual style boot. The pretense of sport is not cool, it is the opposite. Something like my E isn't truly a sports car, and doesn't need to pretend. AMG models get an odd little console shift, too.

Millennial youtuber videos about depreciated previous generation luxury can be played out, but they do raise points about how one should beware, and how many DIY projects are best left for kids with external funding and endless free time, and not for 50 hour a week workers. For that old S600, it cost as much as a nice middle American house when new, and maintenance needs should maybe be paralleled with a 10 year old house rather than a car. It probably has more wiring/plumbing and better interior finishes than many houses, too.

graphicguy said:

Or, you can get a TLX with buttons instead of a stalk to shift the automatic....;)

Here’s another intersecting take on Mercedes’

jpp75

stickguy said:

Hopefully s60 lease incentives carry over into October. I do like these, so worth a look.

Huge incentives and low residuals to get low payment works nicely in the lease to buy plan.

I'm seeing quite a few low miles 2017 S60s for sale below $25k, but they just don't have the vision package so have to be excluded.

I think you'd be really happy with an S60, I always found mine to be the perfect combo of sporty, comfortable and powerful. Great on gas (no PUG required) and just the right size, especially if you don't put people in the back seat too often.

stickguy

Oh, I always loved volvos. And would be happy to have a new one. If the price is right! Like the size, and back seat room is way down my priority list.

I will get over to drive one eventually. The 2.0 engine is quite quick, and good MPG with FWD. regular gas is a nice bonus.

pensfan83

Isn't the S60 getting a little long in the tooth though? Aside from mild tweaks it looks like the same car I looked at in 2011 and again in 2014. The S90 is gorgeous and to net one for under $500 is quite the bargain but like others have noted it's big.

graphicguy

fintail said:

Those buttons are kind of funky - seems different for the sake of being different. But still more appealing to my eyes than a manual-looking shift lever, especially an automatic in a manual style boot. The pretense of sport is not cool, it is the opposite. Something like my E isn't truly a sports car, and doesn't need to pretend. AMG models get an odd little console shift, too.

Millennial youtuber videos about depreciated previous generation luxury can be played out, but they do raise points about how one should beware, and how many DIY projects are best left for kids with external funding and endless free time, and not for 50 hour a week workers. For that old S600, it cost as much as a nice middle American house when new, and maintenance needs should maybe be paralleled with a 10 year old house rather than a car. It probably has more wiring/plumbing and better interior finishes than many houses, too.

graphicguy said:

Or, you can get a TLX with buttons instead of a stalk to shift the automatic....;)

Here’s another intersecting take on Mercedes’

@fintail ....they are kind of funky. Not sure I liked them, at first. Now, it’s 2nd nature and whenever I get into a vehicle with a column or floor shifter, I’m either reaching for the wrong thing, or I actually have to look at the shifter and decide where I need to put it.

In my current car, everything works by feel. I know the upper rectangular button is park, the pull down button beneath it is reverse, the round button is drive, etc. It’s “Hand Memory” at this point. Probably the same can be said about BMW’s “beer tap” shifter....funky at first, but 2nd nature once you’re used to it.

andres3

fintail said:

Those buttons are kind of funky - seems different for the sake of being different. But still more appealing to my eyes than a manual-looking shift lever, especially an automatic in a manual style boot. The pretense of sport is not cool, it is the opposite. Something like my E isn't truly a sports car, and doesn't need to pretend. AMG models get an odd little console shift, too.

Millennial youtuber videos about depreciated previous generation luxury can be played out, but they do raise points about how one should beware, and how many DIY projects are best left for kids with external funding and endless free time, and not for 50 hour a week workers. For that old S600, it cost as much as a nice middle American house when new, and maintenance needs should maybe be paralleled with a 10 year old house rather than a car. It probably has more wiring/plumbing and better interior finishes than many houses, too.

graphicguy said:

Or, you can get a TLX with buttons instead of a stalk to shift the automatic....;)

Here’s another intersecting take on Mercedes’

I actually really like my leather manual-style boots on the DSG transmissions. However, I do find them pretentious on regular slush box automatics or CVT's. I give dual clutch style automated transmissions a pass. I actually prefer using manual mode with up-down lever hits, rather than steering wheel paddle shifters, but I use either so rarely. S-mode is just such a good option for when you want to put the power down. If there wasn't an S-mode, I'd probably go into manual mode a lot more often for the fun of it.

The new A4's use a very short wide shift lever with no effort made to pretend to be a manual stick shift. In this case, since A4's still use DSG's, I prefer the taller stalk with a leather boot.

Have you seen the aftermarket shift paddles that are video arcade game size?

stickguy

GG, the problem is when you are driving a strange car, like a rental or a est drive, and can't figure out how to make stuff work.

With the 2 C classes I drove yesterday. 2014, perfectly intuitive. Get in and go, no issues working anything. Just like a Honda! THe 2016, that took a tutorial. Shifter, the center console controller, etc. I would never have been able to set the navi. Heck, I could barely get radio on, or get car into reverse! I never did find the parking brake so gave up on that.

andres3

stickguy said:

GG, the problem is when you are driving a strange car, like a rental or a est drive, and can't figure out how to make stuff work.

With the 2 C classes I drove yesterday. 2014, perfectly intuitive. Get in and go, no issues working anything. Just like a Honda! THe 2016, that took a tutorial. Shifter, the center console controller, etc. I would never have been able to set the navi. Heck, I could barely get radio on, or get car into reverse! I never did find the parking brake so gave up on that.

Car manuals usually have a summary page of the dash with an arrow pointing to every button and switch telling you what it does; very helpful if the salesman can't answer.

Funny, and embarrassing, I just verified why I couldn't find the electronic motor oil gauge on my TTS last night. My S4 went dip-stick-less, and had a sensored electronic bar gauge in the on-screen menus, but I could not find the same in my virtual display on the TTS.

Called my dealership, was told if it doesn't give you a level reading then it must have a dipstick. Duh! When I got home, I opened the hood, oh yeah, there's the yellow handle of an oil level dipstick.

Another assumption crushed. I prefer having the dipstick, I trust its accuracy more than a sensor.

fintail

I think it is all about learning it and using a car for a few weeks. Both of my cars are column shift - when I get into a floor shift car, I sometimes reach for air. I remember ages ago when I had only driven old cars for months, it took me a couple minutes to remember to depress the brake to get the car out of park, as old cars don't have the brake interlock system.

For the MB column shift, it is just as easy - down is forward gear, upward is reverse, button for park.

graphicguy said:

....they are kind of funky. Not sure I liked them, at first. Now, it’s 2nd nature and whenever I get into a vehicle with a column or floor shifter, I’m either reaching for the wrong thing, or I actually have to look at the shifter and decide where I need to put it.

In my current car, everything works by feel. I know the upper rectangular button is park, the pull down button beneath it is reverse, the round button is drive, etc. It’s “Hand Memory” at this point. Probably the same can be said about BMW’s “beer tap” shifter....funky at first, but 2nd nature once you’re used to it.

fintail

When I had the E55, I would use the tiptronic style shifter a bit, especially for downshifts (to make a little noise). It was a gated shifter, no boot. The boot makes me think it is pretending to be a manual, which is funny.

The Bluetec has paddles, which I have only used to see if they work (they do), no need to use them in normal driving on a car that isn't built for sport. The transmission does a fine job of being in the correct gear. I manually shift the old car a bit, as I think it sometimes upshifts too soon, and the old MFI engines seem to run better when revved a bit.

andres3 said:

I actually really like my leather manual-style boots on the DSG transmissions. However, I do find them pretentious on regular slush box automatics or CVT's. I give dual clutch style automated transmissions a pass. I actually prefer using manual mode with up-down lever hits, rather than steering wheel paddle shifters, but I use either so rarely. S-mode is just such a good option for when you want to put the power down. If there wasn't an S-mode, I'd probably go into manual mode a lot more often for the fun of it.

The new A4's use a very short wide shift lever with no effort made to pretend to be a manual stick shift. In this case, since A4's still use DSG's, I prefer the taller stalk with a leather boot.

Have you seen the aftermarket shift paddles that are video arcade game size?

stickguy

Only time I use paddles in the RDX is when I hit one by accident.

Michaell

Both the Outback and the MINI have paddles. I've played around with them, a little bit. Sporty for the MINI, to hold revs before upshifting.

The only time I could see them being useful in the Subaru is coming downhill on a snowy road - downshift for engine braking.

benjaminh

stickguy said:

After playing with the calculator, decided to set a cap of $25,000 for next car....

Well, if it's still on your list, the 2018 Accord Sport manual might just barely make your $25k target—if you're able to get about $2000 off msrp. But the 2018 Accord EX CVT, which is almost certain to have blis, is going to fall outside of your target, because it will have a list of c. $29,000. Even with 2k off, that's still 2k above your target. Perhaps you'll consider moving your target to c. 27k to keep the 2018 Accord EX on your list? But there are lots of good new and used choices at 25k or less, and we can all understand setting a target and sticking to it.

stickguy

Well, I won't be paying sticker for anything, that I know. And budget can maybe stretch a bit if I fall in love. Or I'll wait.

And on a 2018, can just tack on an extra year to the loan. Keeps payment the same, basically deferring the extra cost a few years down the line when it won't matter.

Dang, starting to feel like Driver100 with all this justification! Should probably just give up, decide what I really want to make me happy (and celebrate surviving the college years), and just work out the details on how to get it. After all, it's only money.

tifighter

Our Volvo has been great so far. No issues at all, and dem seats. When I picked it up, I told myself four years. Halfway done and no threat of switching out so far. Volvo says an all-electric XC40 will be out in 2019. It's like they heard about my timeline...

au1994

Stop all this positive talk about Volvos, guys.

Its enough to give a CCBA'er buyers remorse 

andres3

fintail said:

I think it is all about learning it and using a car for a few weeks. Both of my cars are column shift - when I get into a floor shift car, I sometimes reach for air. I remember ages ago when I had only driven old cars for months, it took me a couple minutes to remember to depress the brake to get the car out of park, as old cars don't have the brake interlock system.

For the MB column shift, it is just as easy - down is forward gear, upward is reverse, button for park.

graphicguy said:

....they are kind of funky. Not sure I liked them, at first. Now, it’s 2nd nature and whenever I get into a vehicle with a column or floor shifter, I’m either reaching for the wrong thing, or I actually have to look at the shifter and decide where I need to put it.

In my current car, everything works by feel. I know the upper rectangular button is park, the pull down button beneath it is reverse, the round button is drive, etc. It’s “Hand Memory” at this point. Probably the same can be said about BMW’s “beer tap” shifter....funky at first, but 2nd nature once you’re used to it.

Speaking of brake-interlock and things you are not used to, the push-button start of the '17 VW Alltrack was enough to thwart my wife's parent's from being able to start the car one time. I believe the screen will tell you to "push brake to start car" or something like that, but it probably didn't occur to them to look at the screen for instructions, so they failed at starting the car.

Unintended consequences of safety and technology.

crazeebuyer

I have a similar list as you guys and gals I have bought over 20 cars in the past 9 years and 10 motorcycles but I am determined to quit at least until the warranties run out.

ab348

The new ATS has displayed the "Be sure to look behind you before locking the car" message a couple of times, seemingly randomly. That is a nanny feature designed to apparently stem the major issue of people locking animals or babies or sleeping persons in the back seat unintentionally.

andres3

ab348 said:

The new ATS has displayed the "Be sure to look behind you before locking the car" message a couple of times, seemingly randomly. That is a nanny feature designed to apparently stem the major issue of people locking animals or babies or sleeping persons in the back seat unintentionally.

Ewwww! I hate unnecessary safety warnings. Unnecessary reading.

Couldn't they have put a sensor in the back seat similar to the front passenger seat (to activate front airbag) only when there is a passenger in the seat over 35 pounds or whatever weight it is that triggers the airbag light?

And who puts car seats in the front anyway?

Mr_Shiftright

pensfan83 said:

andres3 said:

And who knows, after you rejected his offer, he might lose sleep at night, and offer you $400 or $600 more off to buy your soul in a few days.



I'd probably sell out at $600.

I chatted with him briefly before going to lunch and he's disappointed because he "hates to lose" but respected my decision.

Latest financial updates suggest that 2017 is not a good time to sell a soul....buyer's market right now.

qbrozen

crazeebuyer said:

I have a similar list as you guys and gals I have bought over 20 cars in the past 9 years and 10 motorcycles but I am determined to quit at least until the warranties run out.

Welcome aboard. The coffee is on the card table behind you. 

Mr_Shiftright

stickguy said:

A free one of those will still not be cheap

I get the point. It's tempting to "drive above your weight" and buy an out-of-warranty super lux car and feel rich for cheap. But it takes nerve. I did this a few times but couldn't quite relax during ownership. Every tic and burp in the car put me into a worrying state. My $20K could go to $3K in one oil-starved moment.

suydam

au1994 said:

Stop all this positive talk about Volvos, guys.

Its enough to give a CCBA'er buyers remorse 

Are Volvos a Northeast thing? I can't think the last time I saw one on the West coast, and never saw many in the Midwest either.

stickguy

I think so. Largely coastal, and New England was big

fintail

Plenty of new Volvos in my area, but a major dealer is not far from home, and they have a dedicated fanbase here.

ab348

Our family owned a few Volvos in the 1970s, 144 models. Dad liked them and they had a lot of room for a fairly small car by standards of the day. They were not the most reliable things though. I like the styling and interiors of the current models, but don't know much about their mechanical reliability or performance and around here at least, they seem overpriced compared to the competition.

au1994

suydam said:

Stop all this positive talk about Volvos, guys.

Its enough to give a CCBA'er buyers remorse 

Are Volvos a Northeast thing? I can't think the last time I saw one on the West coast, and never saw many in the Midwest either.

I'm in the southeast and I'd say they aren't plentiful here. That was part of the appeal to be honest.  

nyccarguy

crazeebuyer said:

I have a similar list as you guys and gals I have bought over 20 cars in the past 9 years and 10 motorcycles but I am determined to quit at least until the warranties run out.

Welcome aboard @crazeebuyer! Pull up a chair (there's coffee @qbrozen?) and tell us what's currently in your garage (or parked in your driveway or parked on the street). Here's your CCBA "card." Each time you purchase or lease a vehicle (new or used), you get your card "punched" just like at the FroYo place We completely sympathize with you. One of our posters has probably bought as many cars as you in the past 3 years. You are in good company. We are here to provide "support" for each other.

@corvette - why don't you make @crazeebuyer feel at home and tell him how many punches we've registered so far in 2017 by how many board members.