Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

lilengineerboy

The early E36 M3 coupe (the 95s) had a smaller motor, fewer emissions components (obd1 not obd2) and was much more responsive to mods. That motor is pretty robust it shouldnt have a problem with a few pounds of boost. If you want to run more than "sane"- conservatively 8lbs or so, you are going to need some fuel management. The motor isn't the weak link on that thing.
The rear end is "adequate" for stock horsepower and torque levels with stock tires. My buddy had a supercharged M3 and running R-compound tires was instant death for the diff.
There is a place outside of Cincy that seems to have a bunch but they want mega $$$ for them.
I am thinking an E36 M3/4/5 (sedan stick) w/under 80k should be well under $15k and under 100k should be under $12k but the market seems to think otherwise, or at least the sellers.

hpmctorque

Sorry, Shifty and qbrozen, I indeed mistakenly thought you were discussing the BMW 3-Series 6s.

texases

E36 M3 had the 3.0l or 3.2l 6, right? E30 M3 had the 2.5l 4, along with that lumpy trunk (Bangel as a child?)

lilengineerboy

Yeah, E36 was a 3 or 3.2, the E30 was a pissed off lil 4 banger. I think the US only got the 2.3 but the rest of the world got the EVO 2.5.
The E36 is easier to drive (kind of like a Porsche gets easier with each generation) but an E30 is a lot of fun. I think QB did great with his ride, the E30 325iC.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes Alfa was the first company to introduce a mass-produced variable cam timing, in 1980, on the Spider, as standard equipment. Honda wasn't even close. It was very simple, hydraulically operated (as they are now) and extremely reliable. Unlike Honda, though, it wasn't done for power, but for emissions, and worked very well. Alfa engines run very clean, at least those vari-cam injected ones.

The Italians have always been very much on the cutting edge of automotive technology. Their vehicles in 1956 made American cars look primitive (which they were, in comparison). They also introduced the world's first V-6, in the early 1950s Lancia and of course pioneered the mass produced, alloy dohc engine, 4 cylinder, 5 speed, bucket seats configuration that is so common in most cars today.

As Henry Ford famously said: "Whenever I see an Alfa Romeo, I tip my hat" (he really did say that, it is quoted in newspaper documents).

hpmctorque

Interesting! Also, although the V4 configuration never really caught on, I believed it was the Lancia Ardea that pioneered this configuration, in the form of a very compact, narrow angle layout. Ford of Germany later introduced its own V4 for its compact cars, and, I believe, subsequently sold it to Saab, to replace that brands 3 cylinder 2 cycle engine.

Mr_Shiftright

don't know anything about that. I've never traced the history of the V-4--it's such an obscure type of engine.

yes, Saab used the German Taunus V-4 because their 2-stroke could not meet US emissions standards, or so the story goes. But where the Germans got it from, I haven't a clue.

I've worked on a few. They seemed like tough little engines, but very nasty. Lots of vibration and noise. It did not strike me as a stable or desirable design at all.

The Lancia V-6 was very sweet.

hpmctorque

Yeah, there must be a negative tradeoff for the V4 vs. the
1-4, to account for its lack of popularity. Maybe the vibration and unpleasant noise you observed is more difficult or expensive to correct than in an I-4. Or, maybe its the fact that the compact dimensions of a V vs. I configuration are relatively more significant in a 6 cylinder than a 4.

As far as I know, Ford (Germany) designed and built the V4 used in the Taunus. I remember reading that a version of this engine, perhaps enlarged, was going to be used in Ford's on again-off again plans for a U.S. built Taunus sized car in the mid-late '50s. Plans for that car never materialized, because of cost considerations, and Ford introduced the Falcon instead, to do battle with the VW Bug and the Renault Dauphine.

If you Google Lancia Ardea you'll find a lot of information on that interesting car, including diagrams of the engine.

steine13

"[..] used the German Taunus V-4[..]"

I love this forum.

That's what my parents had when I was little; from 1969 or so to 1976 when the rust got too bad... Ford Taunus 15M with the V-4 engine and a four on the tree. Not a bad little car, front-driver to boot.

-Mathias

hpmctorque

Was the Taunus imported in the U.S., or did your parents own that car in Europe? Also, are you sure the Taunus was FWD?

It just occurred to me how close the names Taurus and Taunus are.

Circling back to Shifty's point about the many innovations introduced by Italian manufacturers, space efficiency ranks high, in my opinion. While European cars in general were far more space efficient than domestic cars in the '30s, '40s and '50s, the Italians were the virtuosos in this area. Just look at the Fiats 500, 600, 600 Multipla, 1100, the Lancia Ardea, and the Alfa Romeo Giulietta, as evidence. These popularly priced cars also excelled in generating maximum horsepower relative to their displacements, in their respective classes.

Mr_Shiftright

Cars very much reflect the physical, economic and cultural aspects of the country they are designed for. For Italians in the 50s and 60s, it was narrow streets, few freeways, expensive fuel, high taxes and yet fairly large families. A challenge to designers.

In the USA, it was plenty of room, big freeways, cheap gas, prosperity---so cars could be large, powerful, and designs could be vital and alive but nonsensical. Most pragmatic car designs in America back then were losers--except pickup trucks!

fintail

For a junk hauler this can't be beat

ha ha ha ha haaa

Alfa

Beater (but not that bad) for Andre

"Classic"

Money pit

Mr_Shiftright

'66 Ford Truck: How do you total a valve cover?

Benz Diesel: Quick, call the psychiatric ward

Alfa Spider: Nice car, regrettable color for an Alfa.

hpmctorque

'74 Jag - needs "some" engine work. What, and then it'll be perfect? I interpret the fact that Shifty didn't dignify this car with a comment as code for, run, RUN away as FAST as you can!

qbrozen

the alfa isn't a bad buy if its as nice as it looks. $6k-$6500 is probably right around its value. So asking $6100 means it could probably be purchased under $6k.

Those are the same wheels I have, by the way (could be standard on those year veloces for all i know, though), and they are VERY expensive through international auto. IIRC, its over $1k for the set of 4.

OK, Shifty, a performance head is EXACTLY what I'm looking for! WHERE can i get it?? I thought international used to sell them, but I don't see them anymore on their site. They have the hot cams still, I believe, but a better head would make all the difference in the world, I think.

jlflemmons

interesting
pricey, but nice looking.
Not for a dead '67 in the forest
Some one's been hitting the crack pipe
DRIVES GOOD BUT STALLS EVERYTIME SO MIGHT NEED SOMETHING FIXED Ya think???

Mr_Shiftright

Here you go!

http://www.centerlinealfa.com/products/images/pages/engine.pdf

andre1969

I still have a ways to go to get it truly shiny, but here's kind of a before/after on the trunk lid of my '79 New Yorker. I waxed the right half to see how it would shine up, but didn't do the left side, so I could get a comparison.

I'm just thankful this "Nightwatch" is a non-metallic paint. I'm sure if it was metallic, it would look horrible by now!

fintail

Nice. She'll look pretty fine for a $500 ride.

qbrozen

ah, centerline. it ha been so long I forgot about them. thanks shifty. up till this morning I would seriously consider spending the $1200 for the head and cams, but I woke up and received this gps/pocket pc for dad day. so I do not think I can spend the cash. it is probably best to wait till winter for such a project anyway.

Mr_Shiftright

Lucky dad. But you think they'd have gotten you a performance cylinder head, the obvious best gift! :P

lemko

For a real project:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\06\18\story_18-6-2007_pg9_10

toomanyfumes

Shifty was right......They should have left it buried.

andre1969

I'm impressed that the tires on that car were able to hold air after 50 years! As for the caked-on mud, that would seem to indicated that the vault leaked at some point and filled up with muddy water. I wonder how the car would've fared if it was just locked away in an above-ground vault, or bunker, somewhere, instead of buried. Seems to me that would've been a cheaper route to go, too.

stevedebi

"I'm impressed that the tires on that car were able to hold air after 50 years! As for the caked-on mud, that would seem to indicated that the vault leaked at some point and filled up with muddy water. I wonder how the car would've fared if it was just locked away in an above-ground vault, or bunker, somewhere, instead of buried. Seems to me that would've been a cheaper route to go, too."

The news articles said that the vault leaked and they had to pump out the water. However, the vehicle was encased in a triple covering. Too bad they couldn't have put it in some kind of shrink wrap (which hadn't been invented yet, I think... :sick:

urnews

The best made plans of mice and men ofter go awry. An above ground vault would have prevented the Tulsa snafu.

fintail

Funny that the car fared more poorly in an underground vault than it would have exposed to the dry Oklahoma elements. You could have put it in a carport under a tarp for 50 years and it would have been a hundred times better.

I wonder if some nut will restore it.

lemko

Note to self: Don't put 1989 Cadillac Brougham in an underground vault.

I think that 1957 Plymouth would've fared far more better bricked in the wall of a building. I wonder when the vault began to leak? Is that fifty years worth of damage or had the vault failed more recently? Wouldn't it be sad if it was within the last ten years? Maybe if the car was vacuum-sealed in a thick plastic bag.

texases

Yep, a sealed bag, just don't pull a vacuum on it - would be 15psiX144si/sfX18ft longX6 ft wide = 233,280 pounds of crushing force :surprise: come out flat as a pancake!

Mr_Shiftright

Sealing it wouldn't help. Moisture would still destroy it. It would have to be in a fairly tight but wooden garage, with a dehumidifier and ventilation and temperature control.

Bagging it would have turned it into a mildewed mess.

Mr_Shiftright

These ads are pretty funny...is it Fiats that do this to people or is it just THEM??

1973 FIAT 128, 4-cylinder, 4-door, very solid, no rust, located in Italy, buyer pays for shipping, $5800 585-455-xxxx Rochester

985 FIAT SPIDER, 124, convertible, auto, 2000 cruise control engine, good condition, $3500 or best offer 734-320-xxxx Dexter

1976 FIAT SPIDER, 29, 000 miles on restored motor, good shape in/ out, runs well but needs tune-up, restored by autoshop in 1994, $3500 or best offer 734-775-xxxx Livonia

976 FIAT SPIDER, convertible, 53K, blue, GC, asking $3, 900 or best offer, 440-254-xxx aft 5pm or weekends Painesville OH

1975 FIAT 124, SPYDER Roadster, project car, many extra parts, extra Sampnaynpolo alloy wheels, complete w/title & keys, can deliver Twin City area, $800 bo; 952-933-xxxx MINNETONKA

1987 FIAT X1/9, bertone, runs, needs repair & body work, licensed, 1 owner, no teenagers, $1, 150, call 909-881-xxxx

1971 FIAT, STATION WAGON, imported from Italy, new paint, upholstery, brakes, shocks, tires and recent overhaul, almost one of a king, surfers car?, $1995 818-353-xxxx, priv pty

976 FIAT 124 SPIDER, must sell partially restored fiat, $1700 into it, new pistons, gasket set, tires, recond block, much more, I don't have the cylinder head or title, $1250 or best offer, 520-907-xxxx

1937 FIAT, TRAMOLINO, custom frame, chev rear end, narrowdy corv, front chev engine and transmission, mounts, all steel, 60's style, a/gaster engine and transmission available, $4000, 949-395-xxxx

978 FIAT 124, SPYDER, 2-door convertible, 5-spd, 67k miles, second owner, WILL TRADE FOR 1995 MUSTANG, $1, 999. 505-474-xxxx

1981 FIAT SPYDER 2000, FIAT: 1981 Turbo Spider 2000 convertible all original car with only 31,999 miles on a v-6 engine, trans. type is a 5 speed with an exterior: Silver and a paint rate of 8, interior: blue with a surface of leather, nice chrome with a rate of 9, over all condition is very good,

973 FIAT ANTIQUE, For the pair, They both have hoods. Not titles, See more of our inventory at www.hookedonclassics.com

qbrozen

heck, i think the station wagon sounds interesting. All finished for $2k? If it was a good job and there's no rust under the floors, why not?

british_rover

why the 308 is not a good Ferrari?

long term test Ferrari

Or is that particular 308 a good one?

Mr_Shiftright

The QV is the best of the bunch actually. They aren't bad cars for the money but god help you if you need any major repairs or body work. God help you.

Nobody comes out alive on an old 308. Edmunds will have fun and then slowly (or suddenly) the car will grind them into despair because they don't want to pay the going rate of about $1.50 a mile to drive the car.

Also they ain't really that fast, so there's the humiliation factor of being slapped upside the head by far more humble pocket-rockets.

I also vehemently disagree with Edmunds that the Porsche 928S is "far less desirable" than a Ferrari 308. For less than half the price the 928S will kick that Ferrari down the block and back again in acceleration, handling and braking, and totally dominate it in comfort, build quality, parts availability, service availability, and fuel economy, and cost less to maintain as well.

I wouldn't mind having a 308 however, because I have friends who know the cars and have all the special tools, and I've worked on them myself. Even so, it would be sweat time for me. I've thought about it, as there are good deals out there but I sober up each time. Maybe one of these days I'll do something crazy, and I'm sure I'll regret it, just like everyone else does.

Such is Ferrari love---blind, blind, blind.

texases

Well, with the EFI and 32-valve engine, it's the best 308. IIRC, the earlier ones just didn't deliver the performance some people expected for the $$ and the styling. Same-age Porsche 911s were typically faster and much cheaper. Both will be expensive to maintain today, but the 308 would be, what, 2X more?

fintail

Maybe an Andre-mobile

Well preserved 126 survivor (hey, it is a 25 year old car and all)

british_rover

Ok that is good info. I kind of thought the same about the 928 that the upper level model would destroy a 308 and cost less to maintain.

I have worked on 928s and I am just an overgrown shady tree mechanic. I wouldn't want to try and touch a 308 or any Ferrari for that matter.

andre1969

I kinda like that '78 Cordoba. I know these things tend to get ragged on nowadays because they became such an archetype of the 70's with that RRRRRICH CORRRRINTHIAN LEATHERRRRR, but overall they're really not bad cars.

In fact, I always looked at the Cordoba as being one of the first cars of the 70's to really bring luxury down to the masses. While a 1975 Cordoba still wasn't exactly a cheap car, it offered a lot of luxury options, such as leather and a sunroof, that prior to this were often found only in Cadillacs and Lincolns. You could get leather in a Riviera or Toronado or T-bird, and it was standard in an Eldorado and Mark IV I think, but those were much more expensive cars. You weren't going to find leather in any 1975 Monte Carlo, Grand Prix, Regal, Cutlass Supreme, Cougar, or Elite.

I'd imagine that with a 400, a '78 Cordoba wouldn't be a bad performer, although it was most likely stuck with a 2.45:1 rear end. Even with a 318, these cars usually weren't TOO bad (except for maybe 1979, when they got emasculated to 135 hp)

Mr_Shiftright

Everything on a Ferrari is proprietary. If you don't have the tools or (for later cars) the scanning tools you're sunk. There's even a special dolly to remove the engine/transaxle as a unit for servicing.

re: Ferrari costs: At $100 a piece for drive belt and $4000 for a front bumper and $35,000 for an engine rebuild...yeah...a Porsche 928 is a LOT cheaper than a 308. For the price of a Ferrari engine rebuild, you could buy a really nice Porsche 928 plus a really nice 911SC and a Japanese super bike.

lilengineerboy

Spam (?) 500E

M50 E30

25% done 240SX

Mr_Shiftright

What's yer problem with the 500E? Prices are about right.

texases

That 500E would be great (until something broke, of course, can't imagine what parts for that run). It was a great Q ship, didn't have all the nasty AMG bling.

fintail

Yep that 500E is likely a real ad, a little low, but not unbelievable. Good ones will run a little more, but not a fortune. They are still slowly depreciating.

They are actually pretty solid if maintained. I saw one just the other day, now that I think of it. The specialty/tuned MBs seem to have a lot less problems than normal models.

AMG seemed to lose a lot of the old exclusivity when they started making the kompressor cars. I see a lot of the later models compared to older ones.

lilengineerboy

The format of the add was crummy, I thought, it seemed fake to me. I love that car though (not as much as the M3 I am coveting, but still). If I could get over my issue with automatic transmissions and no one was looking when I dropped $10k, I would love something like that.
I think an E28(is that right) M5 would be the bees knees too.

stevedebi

"Yep, a sealed bag, just don't pull a vacuum on it - would be 15psiX144si/sfX18ft longX6 ft wide = 233,280 pounds of crushing force come out flat as a pancake!"

My own thought was an inert gas like nitrogen or some such. But then, this was 1957 we are talking about!

fintail

Only in Seattle

Mr_Shiftright

I'm sure he'll be buying his baby a birthday cake every year because he and she are going to be together a long long time at that price.

texases

Aw, come on, he used the magic word - "Biodiesel" - I'm sure they're lining up at his door...

Mr_Shiftright

I suppose someone planning a trip to Neptune could save enough money running biodiesel.

british_rover

That was my idea too. Just pump in nitrogen to replace all the air at slightly more then atmospheric pressure.

Nitrogen was available back then remember. It was probably widely available. I am sure it had all kinds of industrial uses.