Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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Comments

  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    Funny, I have heard from several sources that these engines were not strong, but I personally have owned a '75 and '87, and have worked on many others. I have seen these things with >100K and running strong, even when the maintenance was minimal. The old "staggerfire" version was a rough running, low RPM beast but had low end torque that put it in the tractor catagory. They didn't breathe above 4500, but down low had good power behind a 4 speed. By the way, the '75 model used a Buick V8 distributor with two wires removed. Fire two, skip one, fire four, skip one. Really.

    And the '87 "evenfire" with SFI developed a conservative 150HP and would wind up to 5500RPM. Nice little engine that could push a Cutlass Cierra to 75mph all day and still go better than 30mpg with the A/C on.

    Maybe I just got some good ones?
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Well the early ones were rough running and I am sure all the smog equipment on them did not help.

    The later ones were much, much better but got plastic intake manifolds later in production that ruined their image for many people.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,100
    I've always heard that the '75-84 version of the 231 had a weak block. It also had lots of narrow, right-angle oil passages that would clog easily. The 231 got a new block for 1985, and that eliminated most of its problems, and improved reliability considerably.

    I forget when the 181/3.0 Buick V-6 got phased out, but I think it got beefed up for 1985 as well, while the larger 252/4.1 version was phased out.

    Then there was that nylon-mesh timing gear thingie that tended to make them die early, but I think a lot of cars had those back then, not just the 231. I knew someone who had a 1969 or so Delta 88 with (I think) a 425, and I remember him mentioning that the nylon mesh thingie went bad in it.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I think the "thingie" you're referring to is the timing chain sprocket. That component was the weak point of that generation 231/3.8 engine. When the sprocket failed, many people assumed the timing chain had broken, but that wasn't the case. The effect was similar, though. Since that engine wasn't an interference engine, usually, but not always, the valves were not bent, and you could justify repairing the engine. For the '88 model year GM redesigned the 231 very extensively, and in the process substituted a metal sprocket for the nylon one. The 231 was renamed the 3800. Unfortunately, GM fixed one weak point, but introduced a worse one, the infamous plastic intake manifold. Why it took so many years for GM to get rid of the plastic intake manifolds is one of life's great mysteries.

    I had a '85 231 that went 152,000 trouble free miles, and the sprocket held up fine, but the average life may have been in the 90,000-120,000 mile range. Transmission failure (tranny number 3) finally did in my '85 Olds 98. By that time the car had numerous other needs as well, so the crusher put it out of its misery.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oval window early Bugs are worth a lot of money, say from 53 to 57, because they are so rare and are generally easily distinguished from the later models. There is a pretty fanatical cult around them. You can easily get $15,000 for a clean one and probably $20,000 for a restored one. I don't know as this one is worth $9K but it's worth $5K in a basket.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The plastic intake manifolds until the mid 1990s. I had a 1989 Bonneville with the 3800 series I motor.

    Also if you got a SC 3800 you got a metal intake gasket.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "Also if you got a SC 3800 you got a metal intake gasket."

    True, and for that reason alone it was best to get the supercharged models. The problem was that very few buyers were aware of this issue, but certainly GM knew.
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    Well, my '87 had an aluminum intake. It even had an Olds emblem in it. And an interesting note is that all the replacement timing gears for these engines were all metal. Or at least the ones sold through the parts house I dealt with.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,100
    Would a 1985 Chevy Silverado with the Chevy 305 have that nylon timing sprocket? I think I read somewhere that the Olds 307 V-8 used it. We finally got rid of my grandma's '85 LeSabre when it had about 157,000 miles on it though, and never had any problems with the engine, other than some carbon buildup that made it knock on lo-test fuel, but it would still do fine on mid-grade.

    Is there a regular interval that you should replace the timing chain, as preventive maintenance? I know they used to say "life of the car", but back in the day, people often ran their cars into the ground by 100,000 miles. My pickup has about 123,000 miles on it now.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Would my 1988 Buick Park Avenue have that plastic intake manifold? If so, should I expect it to fail anytime soon? Could I have also once again beaten the odds?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,100
    Lemko, I could be wrong, but I don't think the intake manifolds really started becoming an issue until the mid-to-late 1990's models. Now they may have gone to plastic before that timeframe, but perhaps they went to a cheaper grade of plastic later on, or changed something in the design that looked good on paper but not in practice?

    Also, is the manifold just something that fails at random, or do you have to do something to the engine first, like make it overheat? I think most of these manifold failures tend to happen once the car is pushing 80-100,000 miles, well out of warranty. I've heard that the 3.1/3.4 (maybe the 2.8 as well) were also known for having the intake manifold go bad. One of my cow-irkers has a 1999 or 2000 Olds Silhouette minivan that her mother gave her a couple years ago. It had about 100,000 miles on it when the manifold went bad. She was royally pissed. How DARE a 6-7 year old vehicle with 100,000 miles on it have something break on it! Oh, and when the heater quit working, she just didn't understand it. Her reasoning was that her mother lived in Florida and rarely used the heater, so why wouldn't it be like brand-new? :confuse:
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Andre, I don't know for sure about those GM V8s you mentioned, but I presume that they had metal intake manifolds, since that's not a weak point in those engines.

    I think you can still run timing chains for the life of the engine, generally. Why generally and not always? As I understand it, in some cases the chain links get loose after many miles, causing the chain to skip. In these cases, which aren't all that common, it's best to replace the chain. Also, in some cases, the teeth on the sprocket, even the metal ones, can break from metal fatigue, although that's really uncommon. In these cases, it's best to change the sprocket, and probably the chain too, since it may have been weakened, and because most if the cost for this repair is in the labor. If I can state the obvious to make a point, even the best materials CAN break from fatigue, but the probability of such an occurance is far smaller than with an inferior material.

    Insofar as your '89 PA, lemko, are you beating the odds? I don't know what percentage of the plastic manifolds failed, because to the best of my knowledge GM never released those figures. I'm guessing that it was less than 50%, and maybe far less, but the failure rate was high enough, particularly given the number of engines on which those manifolds were used, to be a serious problem. So, we're dealing with the law of large numbers here, where even 5% of 2,000,000, say, just to pick a random number, is 100,000, a large number. My guess is that the failure rate was sufficiently low for GM to decide to manage the problem rather than fix it. I doubt if Toyota or Honda would have taken that approach, or, for that matter, whether GM would today, either. Incidentally, that component was fixed, and current the 3.8 is bullet proof. Long answer to your short question.

    Incidentally, I like your PA, lemko. I had a '85 98 Brougham.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    A girl I work with at my other job just had her Pontiac Montana die. It was partially her fault because she changed the coolant and used the green stuff instead of the orange Dex-Cool. It clogged the water jackets with a thick metallic porridge. She later had the engine flushed and the Dex-Cool put in, but the damage had already been done. She drove the van for at least 5 more years until it quit last week. She is currently driving her sister's BMW 325i.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Thanks for the info. Another something that I didn't know.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    They have to be really early ones, though, because those are quite rare in the US. Very few were imported.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Nah it is just the 3800s from the mid to late 90s that have the plastic intakes. THey tend to fail right around where the throttle body bolts to the plastic although sometimes it happens where the runners seat to the head.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Does anybody make a metal replacement part for these mid-late '90s cars with the plastic intake?
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I think they solved the problem later on by using a different kind of plastic.

    DuPont used to make the manifolds out one particular composite and now they use something else.

    Tons of cars have plastic intake manifolds now and they don't have problems like those 90s 3800s did.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,428
    Andre, of course anything can fail on a car at 100k but those plastic intakes led to a higher than average failure rate. Even at that mileage, aluminum and iron intakes are often indestructible. That's a big repair caused by what is a bad design. Your co-worker was justified in her aggravation.

    Then again, my 93 LeSabre has the plastic intake and no real problems at 120k. I add about a pint of antifreeze a month which is attributable to an intake leak but I can live with that.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,100
    Yeah, I guess my cow-irker is somewhat justified with her irritation. I did think it was amusing, however, that she figured since the van spent most of its life in Florida and the heater was rarely used, it shouldn't fail!

    At first, I attributed this to her just not being very knowledgeable about cars. So I tried to explain it to her that if she's losing antifreeze, that's going to affect her heat. Explaining it to her was akin to the old analogy of leading a cow to water, but it's up to that cow to take the drink! :P

    I just hope that they fixed the intake problem by the time of the 2003 Regal, because that's what my old man has.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,620
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,734
    Take the tint off the windows, and I actually like this! No accounting for taste though.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,428
    I'm serously considering this Sebring

    It's got a new tranny which is a trouble spot for this car. What else should I watch out for?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It doesn't mention mileage.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,428
    I've got a message into the guy. I'll only consider it if it's 100k or less. I only need it for 3 - 5k per year. Are there other known trouble spots with the car that I should look out for?
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,792
    i'm with you. I like that ALOT, actually. Reminds me of Datsun styling.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well you know that car is about at the age when we see suspensions worn out and so I'd look for bouncy shocks, noisy struts, weird-wearing tires and also leaks from the power steering rack. I'm not sure what's up with timing belts on those, so I'd dig out that info if I were you and see what's been done or needs to be done. Other than that, be sure to play with all the knobs and switches, especially power windows and the climate control system to make sure it's hot and cold.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,100
    on that generation of Sebring/Avenger coupe. I know they had a 2.0 DOHC engine standard and a 2.5 V-6 optional. The 2.5 is a Mitsubishi engine, but I can't remember if the 2.0 was a Mitsu unit or if it was the high-output ~150 hp Neon engine.

    If it's a Neon engine, it dates back to the old K-car 2.2/2.5 4-cyl engines, which were non-interference, so if the timing belt went south, you were just stranded, but with no engine damage. However, I dunno if the DOHC design might be different. And if it's a Mitsu engine, I have no idea if it's interference or not.

    I know the timing belt interval on the old Mopar 2.2/2.5 was every 60,000 miles, but I imagine that by 1999, they had it stretched to 105,000 miles.

    As for struts, how often SHOULD they be replaced? My Intrepid is pushing 133,000 miles now, and they feel fine to me. But since that kind of stuff usually deteriorates very gradually, who knows? I drove the car this morning and it felt fine. A little cramped, though, after getting re-used to stuff like '85 Chevy pickups, '79 New Yorkers, and '76 LeManses. :P

    Are struts expensive to replace?
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    Are struts expensive to replace?

    I know that when my stepson replaced the struts on his 2002 Saturn L200 recently it cost him somewhere around $1K .. his car has, I think, 130-140K on it.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Rule of thumb is every 80,000 miles. Sure, they might seem fine to you but if you put new ones in, you'd go OHHHHHHHHH.....
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    My KYB struts were ~$200 on eBay, the upper mounts were about $100 for all 4, and it was a few hours of fighting under the car to install them.
    Murrays/Kragen/Schucks have a "loaded strut" that is the strut, new spring, and new bearing cap all assembled. That whole assembly just gets dropped into the car.
    $1000 for new shocks seems really high, unless they also did other suspension work, like a control arm or a ball joints or something.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You get what you pay for when it comes to struts and shocks. I have no problem with cheap struts for a cheap car however.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    You get what you pay for when it comes to struts and shocks. I have no problem with cheap struts for a cheap car however

    They were KYB GR-2s. So far so good, they were better than the 110k old Honda shocks, and I preferred them to Monroe or Gabriel. I could see Koni or Bilstens but this is a 15 year old Honda here lol.

    What shocks do you like on your vehicles?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,100
    You get what you pay for when it comes to struts and shocks. I have no problem with cheap struts for a cheap car however.

    So, at 130,000 miles, I'm guessing that if I bought some halfway decent struts for my Intrepid, there's a good chance it'd be the last time I ever have to spring for struts? I seriously doubt I'll still have this Intrepid at 260,000 miles! At the rate it's been getting miles put on it lately, I figure that'd be 11-13 years away!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah I like Bilsteins...I've broken KYBs on occasion, snapped 'em...but for puttering around in a normal car driven at normal speeds, they are fine for the money and as you say probably as good as OEM, which you know is probably marginal from the factory. I'd figure...oh...50K on KYBs before they started to get tired. You might not notice unless you heated the suspension up by aggressive driving. Then you'd see progressive failure.

    But you know most people don't even notice bad struts unless they are clanking and bottoming out or ruining tires. The average driver just doesn't demand much of their suspension systems and if you feel okay in your car then why bother? I stress my cars and in a sense that is wasteful----but fun!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...are $500 a piece! Thank God I have yet to replace them.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    .I've broken KYBs on occasion, snapped 'em..

    Doh, where were you before I bought them :P They have about 20k on them now, I am hoping the car is replaced before I get 50k on them though.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh don't worry. Most people are happy with KYBs I'm sure.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,776
    Also, not sure if they share many of the same components as the Caravan, but the body control module (controls all the interior gauges, switches, ABS, etc) is a trouble spot for the vans. Very intermittent (but becomes more frequent), so it might not be something you even can notice, but it manifests itself randomly and suddenly you look down to see all of the gauges dead! No odometer, speedometer, anything. Dead. Oh, and the ABS light comes on. :sick:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,776
    there's a good chance it'd be the last time I ever have to spring for struts?

    Hahahah..... :P

    I think that temperature extremes cause them to wear out faster as well. 50,000 is about all the miles they last here, but at -50F all sorts of things can break. The Maryland area has a fairly moderate climate.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,620
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Seems pricey given that neither the engine nor transmission were rebuilt during the "restoration". Geez you could buy 5 or 6 VW campers for that and just keep reloading as each one breaks down. You'd be set for life and have a yardful of spare parts, too. I mean, who really needs 4WD in a VW. There's no power to put down on the ground.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,150
    Here's where to find bunches of Westfalias Dime a dozen
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Some reasonably sober prices (sort of). Have you ever spent some time in one of these? Bring an iPod and earplugs for the road and some throat lozenges that you'll need after yelling at fellow passengers while at highway speeds. And they're real fun when you pass a semi....

    I'd rather have one of those Dodge conversions with the pop top.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,150
    Never been in one, but quickly learned never to get stuck behind one. Slowest vehicle on Anchorage roads...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    BADDDD choice for an Alaska car if you ask me. I preferred Super Cub and Dodge Power Wagon.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,620
    If I was going to blow 40K on a camper I would spend a little more and get one of those Sprinter conversions, they look cool for what they are
  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,825
    No, what you really want is the one I just bought... this is REALLY stylish! I've always wanted one of those...

    http://www.msu.edu/~steine13/conv.html

    Apologies to those who've seen it on CCBA.

    That thing is absolutely miserable to drive, though, in tight traffic. Sloppy suspension, old tires, it's a bear to keep going straight. And 13 mpg no matter what; 305 V8, 115k, no oil smoke (thank Goodness!) and a 3sp auto with a 2.73 rear end.

    No 8-track, though :-<
    -Mathias
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,100
    I LIKE it!! :D At least you got the "good" rear end. My pickup has that same drivetrain, 305-4bbl, 3-speed THM350C, but I think it has the ultra-sucky 2.56:1. I have those same 15x8 Rally wheels on my truck. They really do help give the thing a more stable, balanced ride.

    I've actually been able to nurse my truck up to about 16 mpg, in a mix of about 50/50 highway/local, but it takes some doing.

    As for 8-tracks, I'm not sure when they finally phased them out, but as of the 1985 Buick lineup, they were no longer available. I still have all the old literature from when my grandparents bought their '85 LeSabre. My '82 Cutlass Supreme's owners manual did show an 8-track in it, though, so I guess it was around that timeframe.

    Also, what is your daily driver? If you were forced to drive that van on a daily basis, you might get used to it and it might not seem so bad. In my case, my pickup is pretty much my daily driver. Now I'm lucky enough that my suspension's still pretty tight and it has good tires on it, so that helps, and for visibility, it doesn't get much better than a boxy pickup where you have no blind spots and can see all four corners. When I get behind the wheel of something like my Intrepid or my uncle's Corolla though, they feel downright odd, because I've adapted to that pickup. I still hate trying to parallel park it, though. :mad:
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