Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

isellhondas

uplanderguy said:

The vents in the trunklids of the all-new GM big cars in '71 were part of the flow-through ventilation system. They had water leak issues in the trunk, and mid-way through the year, the number of the vents decreased. In '72, they were gone completely.

Anyone remember that strange clam shell tailgate those 71-76 full sized GM wagons used?

The body shops just hated them! It didn't take much of a rear ender to mess them up and they were a nightmare to get working as they should.

uplanderguy

All had a power window, and most had a power gate, but some had a manual gate. That's the one I would've liked.

I did like how the third seat was forward-facing in those cars, and they always advertised them showing the tailgate down with a trailer still attached.

andre1969

supposedly, the clearance was so tight with the window glass in the ceiling that it would break it, if you put the slightest pressure on the roof.

I was always under the impression that the clamshells were less space-efficient than Ford and Mopar rivals, because of the clamshell tailgate design, but apparently not. IIRC, the Clamshells had about 106 cubic feet of cargo space, compared to around 101 for the '74-77 Mopar C-bodies, and only around 95 with the '73-78 big Fords.

So, those GM wagons were pretty cavernous inside. However, IIRC, they were also a lot bigger on the outside, as well, so it might have simply been a matter of being bigger than their rivals, but not necessarily more space efficient.

bhill2

andre1969 said:

Even way back in ancient times, auto makers pulled those kinds of stunts. For instance, I read once that 99.6% of all 1956 DeSotos were built equipped with an automatic transmission. For 1957, ostensibly, the cheap Dodge-based Firesweep and mid-line Firedome had a 3-on-the-tree standard, while the top-line Fireflite had a 2-speed Powerflite. I think the Adventurer, which was DeSoto's 300C, had a standard Torqueflite.

However, I heard that every single Firedome and Fireflite ended up being built with the 3-speed Torqueflite. And I've never seen one with anything less, at car shows, although I guess it's possible they were out there.

I have seen Firesweeps with a 3-on-the tree. And, I don't think I've ever seen a '57 Firesweep with a Torqueflite...just the Powerflite.

Oh lord. Back in those days, at least on the low-priced three, the advertised price didn't even include a heater or radio. On the lower trim lines it didn't include a right hand sun visor or rear armrests. The prices couldn't be taken seriously. The only value was that since they were all pulling the same trick, you could use the advertised price to compare.

andre1969

bhill2 said:

Oh lord. Back in those days, at least on the low-priced three, the advertised price didn't even include a heater or radio. On the lower trim lines it didn't include a right hand sun visor or rear armrests. The prices couldn't be taken seriously. The only value was that since they were all pulling the same trick, you could use the advertised price to compare.

Even on mid-priced cars, they played a lot of those tricks. Even on my DeSoto Firedome, with its $3085 base price, a heater and radio were options. I spec'ed it out once using one of those American Standard catalogs, and estimate it MSRPed for around $3800, by the time you throw on the automatic, power steering/brakes, radio, heater, visor vanity mirror that says "DeSoto" on it, two tone paint, whitewall tires, and some additional exterior trim pieces. I think the dual rear antennas were optional as well, but not positive.

My grandparents bought a new '57 Ford Fairlane 500 4-door hardtop, a car with a base price of around $2400, according to my old car encyclopedia. Granddad said it was around $3500 though, once it was all said and done.

I think the feds finally forced the auto makers to start making heaters standard at some point in the 60's, because they enacted a requirement that all cars be able to de-fog the windshield.

uplanderguy

The "Climatizer" was still an option on my '63 Studebaker Lark Daytona Hardtop...option code 60. Production order (build sheet) here:

http://www.studebakerskytop.com/jtskyktopPO63V5224.jpg

A friend still has a white '63 Daytona Hardtop that has the bucket seat option mine didn't have, but no radio and no Climatizer heater/defroster. His production order shows it was shipped to Pompano Beach, FL.

andre1969

I remember spec'ing out both my '68 and '69 Darts, which came in around $3300 for the '68 and $3600 for the '69. A lot of people said that sounded awfully high, but both of them had air conditioning, which was around $350-400. Interestingly, the cheaper Dart had a V-8. However, the pricier one was a GT model, while the V-8 was a 270 series, which I think they renamed "Custom" for '69. The V-8 wasn't a very expensive option, IIRC. The GT also had a few other minor extras, like a vinyl roof and 3-speed wipers with an electric washer, versus 2-speed and a foot pump for the '68.

ab348

Back in the '60s and early '70s, radios were optional on all but the highest-end models. And they were amazingly expensive, especially compared to things like optional engines or suspensions.

fintail

I think until into the 70s, most MBs were shipped without radios, and the buyer could have one installed at the dealer, or just leave the delete plate on, as many seemed to do. I think that might have started changing with 107s and 116s, neither of which I have ever seen with a delete plate.

berri

Until automobile transistor radios came out, some time in the early 60's I believe, they were vacuum tubed with the associated long warm up and battery drain. Vacuum tube stuff, and replacement vacuum tubes, were rather expensive for the times. So that may have played into the pricing some. I'm guessing the car manufacturers held on to the extra profit margins from transistors as long as they could. I'd guess that by the 70's though, home electronics prices had dropped so much that Detroit had to get more reasonable (or just make a radio standard).

uplanderguy

I've seen some late'70's full-size Chevys and mid-size Chevys without radios, so they were still optional at least then.

I can very-clearly remember a new '72 Cadillac Calais at our dealer's, which disappeared shortly so I assume it was an ordered unit, that had no A/C nor a radio. In fact, it had zero options. There was a block-off plate where the radio would be. By that time, power windows were standard. It had blackwalls. Car was black in color and a four-door hardtop. Bottom of the window sticker was $6,480. I never saw the car around town again.

isellhondas

Growing up in Southern California we NEVER used our heaters!

A lot of otherwise well equipped cars were ordered without heaters for that reason.

sda

My parents had a 63 Olds Dynamic 88 Holiday coupe. Medium metallic green, solid white top. Full wheel covers, whitewalls, ps, slim Jim hydramatic, manual drum brakes, one speed electric wipers, no washers, no back up lights no driver' door review mirror, no radio, no clock, tinted glass, factory a/c. Oddly equipped. Dad bought it in '65 with very low miles. The Olds dealer said the car had been a special order by the previous owner who was elderly and soon after taking ownership was told not to drive any longer. That was in St. Petersburg, Fl. We soon moved to New Orleans and liked to have froze in that car in the winter. We carried blankets and dressed warmly. Ended up replacing it with a '69 Olds 98LS sedan. The '63 was never really liked by my dad, but he really liked the 98. The 98 was replaced with a 72 Cutlass Supreme, mom's favorite to this day. Yes, we were an Olds family all the way to mom's '98 Aurora. She now has a CR-V. Times do change.

uplanderguy

One-speed wipers probably shocks me the most out of that list! The no driver's door mirror--optional on Studes right through the end in '66--not sure about GM's. Did that '63 not have a heater but had A/C? A '69 Ninety-Eight is a luxurious car for sure.

ab348

@sda - it had a/c but no heat? I didn't think that was possible.

isellhondas

I once saw a '64 Impala SS that was loaded to the max. Under the hood was a six cylinder engine!

sda

ab348 said:

@sda - it had a/c but no heat? I didn't think that was possible.

It was really odd. It had push buttons for all the a/c controls and where the two buttons for heat and defrost would have been, it was a solid chrome blank spot. Having been born and living my first 8 years in St.Pete I can only remember a couple of times dad lit the furnace. I guess it wasn't a big deal. Have to admit, never seen another with factory ac and not have a heater. Mom did a happy dance when she got the 98. It was loaded in comparison to the '63 and dad loved to push the pedal to wake up that 455

uplanderguy

A friend of mine, older than me, went to GM technical school in the late sixties. He is convinced that Oldsmobile had the best engineering of all the divisions in the sixties--including engine quality.

lemko

I love the controls they used for the heaters in 1960s Oldsmobiles. They mimic the pushbutton radio.

isellhondas

Speaking of '64 Impala SS's

This has an ultra rare option for the time. Cruise control! I've been to a lot of car shows and I've always been a Chevy guy but I can't remember ever seeing another one with cruise.

It also has PB/A/C but no tilt wheel.

Something about it doesn't look right to me. Did they make a red that shade? I remember a burgundy color that I always liked. It just looks a bit Mickey Moused up to me.

And that red piping in the seats isn't correct nor is the seat material.

I'm sure someone will grab it!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Impala-SS-Beautifully-restored-Chevrolet-Impala-1964-A-MUST-SEE-/261727059029?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3cf025fc55&item=261727059029&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

uplanderguy

I seem to remember a bright red on '64's. Yeah, that seat piping turns me off, but then I'm a nutjob about things looking original/authentic.

I've only ever seen that style cruise control on other Chevys of that era, on eBay. That is interesting.

ab348

A shame, that Chevy would need its entire interior replaced if I had it. Someone made a real mess.

andre1969

Chevy had three "reds" in '64, according to TCPGlobal.
http://www.autocolorlibrary.com/aclchip.aspx?image=1964-Chevrolet-pg01.jpg

"Riverside Red" is a bright looking red, probably what that '64 Impala is going for. Who knows though, it may not be a perfect match if it was repainted. And different lighting, angles, and camera can play tricks on the color as well.

"Ember Red" looks more like a metallic burgundy to my eyes, and might be the color that Isell is thinking of. Then there's a "Palomar Red", that looks kind of like a deep maroon metallic.

uplanderguy

Too, sometimes not all the colors were available on all series. I remember the maroon on '64 Chevys well--more than the bright red actually. At local cruises where I live, a guy has a nice, stock, light green with white painted top, '64 Impala Sport Sedan (four-door hardtop) with a six-cylinder. At first view I was ready to grumble under my breath that it had had crappy bodywork done since there was no 'vee' emblem on the front fenders, but then I saw it wasn't supposed to!

isellhondas

If you look at the shot of the speedometer the red dash paint looks artificial too.

Hard to believe that car is 51 years old now!

andre1969

I'm not a huge fan of the '64 Impala...don't love it, but don't hate it, either. But yesterday, I saw something that gave me a new appreciation for it. I was watching "The Outer Limits", which had a '64 Galaxie 4-door sedan in it, and it really made me think...at that time, it seemed like the big Fords were still trying hard to shrug off the 50's, whereas the '64 Impala seemed fully up to date.

If I was buying a new big car in this era though, I think I'd just pony up a few more bucks and get a Pontiac Catalina. Or an Olds Dyanmic/Super/whatever/88 (always get the nomenclature mixed up from that timeframe. I thought the '64 Olds was a pretty handsome looking car. I guess the one downfall of a Catalina or Olds would have been use of the Slim-Jim transmission. However, would that have had a bad rap yet, by '64, or was it once these cars started getting older, that they failed in large numbers?

berri

Had one go on a 63 Olds at 60K something miles. Heard they were bad news from repair place.

Mr_Shiftright

the Slim-Jim was as bad as they say, yes.

ab348

If I was buying in '64, the Buick was nice and I don't think it had the Slim Jim. Otherwise I might go for the Ford, or one of the new GM intermediates. For whatever reason the 1964 model year was not a winner for me.

andre1969

I think in '64, big Buicks were still using some version of the Dynaflow transmission, weren't they? I believe the THM400 came in sometime during the 1964 model year, but not sure what it was and wasn't offered in.

isellhondas

The correct name for a Slim Jim was Roto Hydramatic and they weren't any good. Buick used an updated Dynaflow. In 1965 the three speed Hydramatic came in everything except Chevrolets. This was a MUCH better transmission.

Buick Specials from 1961-1963 had the worst transmissions of all, the Dual Path.

The transmission pans were attached using ONE bolt, right in the center of the pan.

uplanderguy

I wouldn't buy most any Big Three 1964 car. Now, '65--that's a different story! A lot of the '64 big cars still had short-hood, long-deck styling, and the Chevy, to me, was wide, had flat body panels and was blunt at the front and rear. And I grew up in a Chevy family! The Buicks had four pieces of unnecessary trim on the front fenders; the Olds still had fins. The Pontiac Bonneville was too long in the rear for me and had that 'spaceship' emblem at the front of the front fenders; the Grand Prix had the filled-in boomerangs in the rear.

In the big three, I'd probably pick a Catalina 2+2 hardtop coupe. The boomerangs in the rear were the taillights, had a nice interior, and to my eyes was better-proportioned than the longer Star Chief and Bonneville. Oh, I'd take a '64 Eldorado convertible too.

fintail

I'm weird, so I like the 64 Impala, especially an SS with the pretty machined trim. Make mine a silver blue with matching interior.

stickguy

I must be the weirdo here. I have no interest in big american cars, of any vintage. i was excited in 1969 when my parents replaced an early 60s Chevy wagon with a Volvo 144.

That, and I don't like big cars at all to this day.

Michaell

The only big American car I had any experience with was my grandmothers 67 Mercury Monterey coupe

fintail

I grew up with mostly late malaise 80s and 90s stuff - old American cars were much more interesting and stylish to me. My first car was a 66 Galaxie - in the 90s. My dad agreed with my sentiment (probably gave it to me) as he often had an old car or two around, too.

sda

fintail said:

I grew up with mostly late malaise 80s and 90s stuff - old American cars were much more interesting and stylish to me. My first car was a 66 Galaxie - in the 90s. My dad agreed with my sentiment (probably gave it to me) as he often had an old car or two around, too.

My first car was a 62 Galaxie 2 dr sedan, 292 V8, 3 sp manual, no power steering, manual brakes, heater, am radio, full wheel covers. Ugly, slow, ungainly, but bullet proof. I drove it harder than my dad's GMC 4wd and it never whimpered. I paid $100 for it in 1977.

sda

berri said:

Had one go on a 63 Olds at 60K something miles. Heard they were bad news from repair place.

I do remember the drawn out and deliberate shift from 1-2. The engine always seemed to grumble a bit after shifting to second. I remember dad complaining it was the worst shifting transmission ever and other than his 79 Eldorado Diesel, which he both loved and hated, multiple head gasket failures, the 63 Olds was his least favorite.

andre1969

I have a lot of relatives down south of Lynchburg, VA, that I haven't seen in awhile. I remember one of them had a black '62 Galaxie...4-door hardtop, I think. For all I know, it might still be in the family. I don't think I've been down that way since 1997 or so, for a funeral, and at that time they still had it. A few years later, some of the cousins were visiting up this way, and I asked about it. They said that yup, they still had it. And I should come down and visit sometime; they'd let me drive it! But, unfortunately, I never did. Some of those relatives came up in October for my grandmother's cousin's 90th birthday party, but I didn't think to ask about the car then.

sda

Andre, kind of ironic. We lived near Farmville, Va, actually Buckinham county where my dad bought a farm during my junior and senior years of high school. That is a little east of Lynchburg. That is where I bought my first car, a beat up Galaxie, but I was so proud to have it, my own car! Beautiful area, things didn't go well and dad sold the farm and we moved to Knoxville, TN. Yes I am a Vol, and I have the greatest respect for our farmers!

andre1969

My family down there is in a little town called Alta Vista, which I think is a bit southwest of Lynchburg. There's an old farm down there that's still in the family, although it's overgrown now, and the farmhouse is abandoned. I remember going down there another time around 1996 or so, for some other event...either another funeral, or someone's 90th birthday party, can't remember which, and we went out and saw the farm. In one of the rooms of the farmhouse, there were a bunch of old Chevy repair manuals from around 1962, just going to waste. They let me have them and bring 'em back, and I have them packed away, somewhere. I remember my Great-Uncle John driving a '62 or so Chevy II when I was a little kid.

xwesx

Dang, that's sad. It's a great time to revive old places like that!

stever

Some of those old places make nice summer homes. Just blow the cobwebs out and enjoy living on the porch.

You can use the old '49 Ford pickup out back for plinking practice.

andre1969

stever said:

You can use the old '49 Ford pickup out back for plinking practice.

Funny you'd say that...I'm part-owner of 10 acres of probably-worthless land in Southwest Virginia. My grandparents bought it back in 1980, when my uncle was living down there. They had a pipe dream of building a retirement cottage down there, but it never came to be, as my uncle moved back up here about two years later. Grandmom signed it to my uncle and me back in the late 90's. I haven't been on the land since they first bought it in 1980, when I was 10. I remember there was a '58 Edsel station wagon and an old late 40's/early 50's Buick on the property, both riddled with bullet holes.

I wonder what kind of condition those cars are in today, considering another 35 years have passed.

stever

It's probably time to replenish the targets. Also funny, the people with the "farm" cottage I met that just used it in the summer and did as little work on it as possible were from VA.

uplanderguy

Here's a '64 Chevy I could enjoy owning. This car was on eBay a couple years back and we discussed it on Edmunds. Bought new by the guy's father; 283 4-barrel with four-speed and bone-stock. I remember him saying that it was poorly assembled when new and required a good deal of trips back to the dealer; for some reason I would not have expected that. They are indeed a rare sight; my Dad's friend in our hometown had a light blue six-cylinder one along with a '60 Lark VIII at the same time. I think there's a hint of Nomad in the side window treatment, a good thing!

http://www.hemmings.com/hmn/stories/2010/03/01/hmn_feature5.html

stickguy

2 door, V8, Stick shift? Works for me!

isellhondas

I don't think the 4BBL 283 engines were available in the full sized Chevys. If this was an option, I never saw one. Still, in those days a person could order some strange combinations.

Mr_Shiftright

An odd Duck....would make a neat 60s-era "gasser" though.

andre1969

I think they allowed a 4-bbl on the Chevelle because the 327 wasn't available in it yet. But in bigger cars, they wanted you to blow the extra money on a 327, or better yet a big block, so they only offered the 283 in 2-bbl guise.