Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

bhill2

fintail said:

Had the old car out today, ran fine, although it once again seemed like an oven in it - temps in the low 80s, partly sunny. Maybe AC has finally ruined me.

I did some pics like this with the Bluetec, time to do it again:

Oh yeah. When I was growing up in that area, most cars didn't have air conditioning (OK, so I'm old). When the temperatures got onto the '80s there was no way to stay cool in a car. Of course there was no way to stay cool anywhere except a theater or air-conditioned store since the houses weren't air-conditioned either.

fintail

Which one would I keep, assuming both in mint condition. The modern car will likely be a lot easier to live with for the next 150-200K miles, but after that the electrics might not be fun - at this rate 200K miles for me is about 30 years. The fintail will need a lot more maintenance, but might make it through the long haul as it has less complex systems to worry about, and is more fun. Tough. I can't make that decision

I figured a Vanagon has a drag coefficient of 0.44, the fintail can't be any worse, right? Wikipedia has a long list, unsure of accuracy

berri

Vanagon - "she's built like a brick house"...

sda

bhill2 said:

fintail said:

Had the old car out today, ran fine, although it once again seemed like an oven in it - temps in the low 80s, partly sunny. Maybe AC has finally ruined me.

I did some pics like this with the Bluetec, time to do it again:

Oh yeah. When I was growing up in that area, most cars didn't have air conditioning (OK, so I'm old). When the temperatures got onto the '80s there was no way to stay cool in a car. Of course there was no way to stay cool anywhere except a theater or air-conditioned store since the houses weren't air-conditioned either.

Great pics. Your fintail, fintail is always fun to see. Interior or engine pictures would be great.

stickguy

wimps. I grew up just outside NYC. No AC in a car until I bought a 323 in 1986. And that includes the family cars I grew up with.

and no AC in the house. That took real fortitude. Not even a room AC until after I moved out.

got a little toasty when it was a hot spell in the summer!

Mr_Shiftright

When I was a kid I would sleep on the fire escape. Now of course with helicopter parents abounding, this would warrant my mom being arrested. I think the first car I had with AC was a '63 Buick Riviera--white with white leather. Nice car but it had this persistent overheating problem that all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't fix. I suspect the block itself had corroded in the galleys.

sda

Mr_Shiftright said:

When I was a kid I would sleep on the fire escape. Now of course with helicopter parents abounding, this would warrant my mom being arrested. I think the first car I had with AC was a '63 Buick Riviera--white with white leather. Nice car but it had this persistent overheating problem that all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't fix. I suspect the block itself had corroded in the galleys.

For the first 15 years I grew up in St. Petersburg, FL and New Orleans, LA. Dad was originally from St. Pete. Though we eventually got a room a/c, it was rarely used. Schools only had a/c in the principals office and library. In New Orleans the house had central air, but because my parents were used to not having air, it wasn't used often. Schools also did not have air. The 63 Olds had factory air, and mom did use it often. That was a true luxury. Now, we have all become a/c hounds...going from the house, car, office. Sofities.

fintail

A lot of cars here until the late 70s or early 80s didn't have AC. I am pretty sure my dad's Horizon didn't have AC - and we lived in eastern WA! I am sure the T-Bird did though, and I remember the Ciera had very cold AC. I remember in Moses Lake, the AC unit in our house seemed to run 20+ hours a day in the summer. I wonder what the power bills were like.

Now I live in a place where a seven figure house won't have it.

My first car, the 66 Galaxie, didn't have AC. The 60 and 68 Fords my dad had in the 90s also lacked it. First car I owned with AC was my 1989 W126, and it worked fine. Guy who bought from me was thrilled to see it work.

bhill2 said:

fintail said:

Oh yeah. When I was growing up in that area, most cars didn't have air conditioning (OK, so I'm old). When the temperatures got onto the '80s there was no way to stay cool in a car. Of course there was no way to stay cool anywhere except a theater or air-conditioned store since the houses weren't air-conditioned either.

fintail

Thanks. I posted these for you a little while back, they might have fallen off your view:

sda said:

Great pics. Your fintail, fintail is always fun to see. Interior or engine pictures would be great.

Mr_Shiftright

All very familiar. I could probably work on that engine with my eyes closed. I even remember the point gap---12"....not 13", not 11" I think I tell have the valve adjustment tool somewhere.

fintail

You should come by, my car needs a little valve work. Oh, you weren't offering?

Mr_Shiftright said:

All very familiar. I could probably work on that engine with my eyes closed. I even remember the point gap---12"....not 13", not 11" I think I tell have the valve adjustment tool somewhere.

bhill2

sda said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

When I was a kid I would sleep on the fire escape. Now of course with helicopter parents abounding, this would warrant my mom being arrested. I think the first car I had with AC was a '63 Buick Riviera--white with white leather. Nice car but it had this persistent overheating problem that all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't fix. I suspect the block itself had corroded in the galleys.

For the first 15 years I grew up in St. Petersburg, FL and New Orleans, LA. Dad was originally from St. Pete. Though we eventually got a room a/c, it was rarely used. Schools only had a/c in the principals office and library. In New Orleans the house had central air, but because my parents were used to not having air, it wasn't used often. Schools also did not have air. The 63 Olds had factory air, and mom did use it often. That was a true luxury. Now, we have all become a/c hounds...going from the house, car, office. Sofities.

OK, I admit I'm a softy. I consider the development of A/C to represent the beginning of modern civilization. Just kidding, but just barely.

omarman

Mr_Shiftright said:

When I was a kid I would sleep on the fire escape. Now of course with helicopter parents abounding, this would warrant my mom being arrested. I think the first car I had with AC was a '63 Buick Riviera--white with white leather. Nice car but it had this persistent overheating problem that all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't fix. I suspect the block itself had corroded in the galleys.

You had a mom? Cue Monty Python's Four Yorkshiremen, "We used to dream of living in a corridor!"

gsemike

89 300ZX Turbo

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5114192071.html

This is speaking to me. What would I be looking at to keep this as weekend/third car? I'd imagine doing 2 -3k a year.

explorerx4

@gsemike, Straight pipe = no CAT?

qbrozen

cool.

exporer - it depends. some folks say that if its a straight pipe from cat back, from manifold to muffler, or minus both.

xwesx

gsemike said:

89 300ZX Turbo

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5114192071.html

This is speaking to me. What would I be looking at to keep this as weekend/third car? I'd imagine doing 2 -3k a year.

I'm sure it is speaking to you, but are you listening to what it is saying?

Mike.... I'm just about used up and have a long list of needs..... Come get me.... Love me..... Regret it later.....

qbrozen

My 300z had nearly 170k miles, ran perfect, and needed nothing. Well, OK, it needed AC. haha. But it was a non-turbo.

stickguy

if it is clean, that is a durable car. Just need to make sure it is not full of glossed over problem areas.

if it really is solid, may not cost much to run as a weekend toy. Unless the digital dash goes out. then it will!

xwesx

qbrozen said:

My 300z had nearly 170k miles, ran perfect, and needed nothing. Well, OK, it needed AC. haha. But it was a non-turbo.

They're out there, for sure. This ad does not build my confidence when they post photos (like that interior shot) and then still say "mint condition." What I hear when I read that ad is, "I can't take it anymore! Someone please take this thing off my hands!"

isellhondas

I once owned a 1969 Volkswagen Beetle that had dealer installed A/C. Klaus, my mechanic thought it was horrible that someone would do this. " "Dis car should NOT haf air conditioning!"

If I was going 65 MPH down the freeway and the compressor engaged it would slow the car down by at least 5MPH. When it disengaged, the car would speed back up!

I think Klaus was right.

Mr_Shiftright

too bad it wasn't a 1990 Z32 --considerably more HP.

fintail

Neat car, but "mint"? Look at the steering wheel. I guess my fintail is concours too. Maybe it's Lawn Guyland mint, I know that place devours cars.

The timeless 1990+ model will become collectible first, but turbo is always good.

gsemike said:

89 300ZX Turbo

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5114192071.html

This is speaking to me. What would I be looking at to keep this as weekend/third car? I'd imagine doing 2 -3k a year.

gsemike

Mint is on the eye of the beholder. It's not mint in my eyes, but I am thinking 3500 and I am cruising.  I like the time capsule nature of the car and what was futuristic 25 years ago 

Mr_Shiftright

I was thinking 1990 300ZX twin turbo--300 HP!

hpmctorque

"The Euros typically lagged behind styling trends - fins were alive and well there into the mid 60s."

I wouldn't compare MB with AMC engineering or market positioning but some models shared similar dimensions and styling cues. For example, the late '50s AMC Ramblers featured fins, but they were gone by the early 60s.

gsemike said:

89 300ZX Turbo

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5114192071.html

This is speaking to me. What would I be looking at to keep this as weekend/third car? I'd imagine doing 2 -3k a year.

I had a fully loaded 1988 naturally aspirated 300ZX 2+2, with 5-spead manual. and I can tell you that they're solid, well built cars. Nissan put their best effort into these and the Maxima of that era. Can't speak for the turbo, though. Also, the digital dash can be problematic. Mine lost some functionality at ~120,000, including the temp gauge. The lower end Zs had an analog dash, which was reliable, versus the digital dash on the upper trim versions.

Fortunately, I've got a good friend who's an electrical engineer. He removed the faulty component and soldered the connection that had severed (or whatever; I feel I'm exposing my ignorance of digital electronics). Long story short he fully restored the functionality of my dash in about an hour, and it never gave me a problem until I got rid of the car at 194,000 miles.

So, what are the points of vulnerability with the Z31 Series (1994-1989)? Rust is one, if it lived in a rust prone area. I had a good body shop that had experience with Zs remove and repair the rust on my left rear wheel well, for ~$900, Second, digital dash failures, and the fact that most people didn't know how to repair them sent many of these cars to an early grave. Nissan's parts department stopped stocking new digital dashes after a few years, and didn't want to be be bothered with old car problems. Third, the rack and pinion systems are good for 100,000-150,000 miles, after which they tend to leak. These are replaceable, but if the car has other needs, it may not be worth repairing. I was lucky, since mine lasted the life of the car, although it began to leak at around 160,000.

What finally did mine in was catastrophic transmission failure at 194,000. The way it was explained to me by a shop that specializes in repairing and restoring old Zs is that a bearing failed and all the transmission fluid leaked out. Or, at least that's the way I understood it. I had a warning, because the transmission began making strange noises. I took it to a guy with a garage, who is also a member of the local Z Car Club, but he was unable to identify the problem.

I was surprised when the tranny failed because I thought manual transmissions are virtually indestructible if they're not abused, and mine was never abused. Anyway, between the transmission, the leaking rack and pinion and a cracked windshield the repairs would have cost more than 3X the market value of the car, so I sold it as a parts car on Craigslist for $500. I guess everything wears out eventually.

Those Z31 V6s are very tough and reliable. Mine used virtually no oil and didn't leak any at 194K. Again, though, I speak only for the naturally aspirated engines.

hpmctorque

isellhondas said:

I once owned a 1969 Volkswagen Beetle that had dealer installed A/C. Klaus, my mechanic thought it was horrible that someone would do this. " "Dis car should NOT haf air conditioning!"

If I was going 65 MPH down the freeway and the compressor engaged it would slow the car down by at least 5MPH. When it disengaged, the car would speed back up!

I think Klaus was right.

Absulutely. You always want to follow Klaus' advice. No exceptions!

qbrozen

i had to replace the steering rack in my Z, too. Wasn't terribly expensive or difficult, although I don't remember the exact details. I want to say it was under $200 for a rebuilt unit off Ebay, IIRC.

andre1969

I stopped off at my DeSoto's mechanic during my lunch break today. Here's a few pics I took of it, plus some random projects that are scattered about in his garage...

Michaell

Andre, I've gotta ask .. with all those projects going on at the shop (a Chevette? really?), how do they decide what to work on?

Whichever owner has dropped off a check most recently?

texases

Great pics, Andre. Those fins on the Dodge wagon just look odd to me...

stever

Michaell said:

Andre, I've gotta ask .. with all those projects going on at the shop (a Chevette? really?), how do they decide what to work on?

Whichever owner has dropped off a check most recently?

Good question. I always figured that the shop would get into a project far enough to see what parts were needed, and then let the car sit until stuff started arriving.

stickguy

That thing almost done? Just painting one fende, or the whole car?

andre1969

stever said:

Michaell said:

Andre, I've gotta ask .. with all those projects going on at the shop (a Chevette? really?), how do they decide what to work on?

Whichever owner has dropped off a check most recently?

Good question. I always figured that the shop would get into a project far enough to see what parts were needed, and then let the car sit until stuff started arriving.

I think it's a combination of logistics and cash flow. It all depends on when the customers pay up, and also when parts arrive, scheduling outsourced work, etc. And some cars are going to go quicker than others. For instance, if you need new door panels for your '57 Chevy, they're probably in stock somewhere. But for my '57 DeSoto, they had to be fabricated from scratch, and that took a lot of time.

I also have a feeling that many of these projects get blown out of proportion once the shop starts tearing into the car to see what all is really needed. For instance, with my DeSoto, originally the mechanic was supposed to get it to the point that it starts and stops again. But, the more he tore into it, he started convincing me to have other things done, with the classic line "it's cheaper to do it now, while it's all apart..."

xwesx

andre1969 said:

But, the more he tore into it, he started convincing me to have other things done, with the classic line "it's cheaper to do it now, while it's all apart..."

That's the problem with these projects! It *always* turns out that way! LOL

It is looking very nice, though. You're definitely going to have to clear out a space in the garage for that beauty.

But, of the whole bunch, I must say that I love that Corvair van/pickup. Sweet.

ab348

I was wondering the same thing as @Michaell. Looks more like a storage facility than a working shop.

Having said that, the Dodge wagon is too cool for school.

Mr_Shiftright

Seems like he has too much going on to be efficient. I see most small restoration shops doing 3 cars max, in a severe pinch up to 5.

fintail

I think the van/pickup is a Dodge D100 or equivalent.

Packard looks like a 4 door convertible, there's a rare bird. Can't wait to see Andre's car finished, it will be like Christine's fancier sister.

berri

I think that pick up is a Dodge D-100 too. Lots of interesting Virgil Exner Mopar stuff; I think the Dodge wagon is a 60 maybe because of the big fin that got downsized later. Also a 60 and a 61 Plymouth. But how in the heck did a Chevette get stuck amongst all those vehicles??? I always felt Desoto's were fairly handsome cars in the mid 50's and the hardest favorite pick is between a 57 Desoto Adventurer or Chrysler 300. I'm guessing this shop works on most American iron, but is a Mopar specialist?

isellhondas

Andre, I'm thinking your guy should finish one car before taking on all of those others!

Your car for example!

andre1969

stickguy said:

That thing almost done? Just painting one fende, or the whole car?

Well, plotted on a time scale, it's closer to "done" than "just started"...so, hopefully! Eventually I'll get the whole car painted, but probably not by this guy. Labor rates are getting ridiculous around these parts, so when that time comes I might ship it off somewhere. That fender had some pretty bad rust around the headlight bezel.

stickguy

So taking it back with one green fender, or just having him do that one?

andre1969

He's supposed to put some red paint on that fender so it at least somewhat matches the rest of the car.

bhill2

andre1969 said:

I stopped off at my DeSoto's mechanic during my lunch break today. Here's a few pics I took of it, plus some random projects that are scattered about in his garage...

Thank you for not showing the front end of the '61 Plymouth.

berri

You can see that at your Lexus dealer

andre1969

berri said:

You can see that at your Lexus dealer

I was thinking that as well, and was gonna post a Lexus grille. But with my luck it would be a model that one of our forum members owns

bhill2

berri said:

You can see that at your Lexus dealer

Good grief! Lexus had fallen off my radar, but you are absolutely right. We have a sequel to the '61 horror show that was the Plymouth.

sda

isellhondas said:

I once owned a 1969 Volkswagen Beetle that had dealer installed A/C. Klaus, my mechanic thought it was horrible that someone would do this. " "Dis car should NOT haf air conditioning!"

If I was going 65 MPH down the freeway and the compressor engaged it would slow the car down by at least 5MPH. When it disengaged, the car would speed back up!

I think Klaus was right.

A VW beetle with air really had to be rare up your way. I know when I lived in New Orleans, our neighbor had one and he said the air was worthless and never used it.

sda

fintail said:

Thanks. I posted these for you a little while back, they might have fallen off your view:

sda said:

Great pics. Your fintail, fintail is always fun to see. Interior or engine pictures would be great.

Thanks for reposting. A cool car. Is the automatic a Hydramatic from GM, or Borg Warner? Still a very classy car.

fintail

Some earlier MBs (only Adenauers, I think) had Borg Warner units, but this was the first use of MB's first in-house automatic, a 4 speed non-OD unit that lacks a torque converter,instead using a fluid coupling.

sda said:

sda said:

Great pics. Your fintail, fintail is always fun to see. Interior or engine pictures would be great.

Thanks for reposting. A cool car. Is the automatic a Hydramatic from GM, or Borg Warner? Still a very classy car.