Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

tjc78

Some day loonnnggg down the road I could see the first generation Taurus being a collectible. Love or hate it that car redefined family mid-size sedans. In the same breath you can say the same thing for the first gen Chrysler mini-vans and first gen Ford Explorer in their segments.

The 80s didn't produce many winners, but the Taurus was one of them.

stever

Guess it's time to start hunting for my old '89 Plymouth Voyager.

Mr_Shiftright

tjc78 said:

Some day loonnnggg down the road I could see the first generation Taurus being a collectible. Love or hate it that car redefined family mid-size sedans. In the same breath you can say the same thing for the first gen Chrysler mini-vans and first gen Ford Explorer in their segments.

The 80s didn't produce many winners, but the Taurus was one of them.

You can still buy a 100 year old Ford Model T for less than the price of a stripped down Kia, so maybe Taurus will have to wait a bit longer than that?

tjc78

I hear ya! I know we aren't talking six figure cars here!

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, I know. I figure that a car has about 30-35 years to "make its move" into collector car status (or at least begin to nudge in that direction) or it's not going to happen.

So Taurus, make your move!

fintail

To be fair, a car can be significant, but not an expensive collectible. Taurus supply will likely exceed collectible demand into the foreseeable future. Probably just like a Model T, you can get a nice enough running driving 95 year old car for 10K or so I am sure. That the Taurus looks modern even today won't help it, either.

I suspect in another decade or so, minty early Taurus survivors will be seen and admired at Ford shows,

Regarding early Intrepids etc, what catches my eye most about those (other than at almost 25 years old, they don't look too "old"), is the small headlight assemblies. It really shows how the design industry gets into groupthink and mimicking, when huge overstyled oversized light clusters caught on and became the thing.

stickguy

Probably the hardest part of collecting a lot of these is restoring them, especially getting parts. Maybe time capsule cars when the original owner generation starts dying off.

Oh wait, that's Florida.

Mr_Shiftright

ah, yes, "god's little waiting room".

That's the key really. There is very little aftermarket product available for most 80s cars.

texases

And what do most '80s cars have to offer that's interesting or unique? While I really liked the Taurus' looks when it came out, no way I'd buy one now to 'collect'. A new, say, Fusion is better in every way. No extra 'character' in the Taurus. Just an important marker in history.

Mr_Shiftright

I suspect the rest of the world doesn't view the Taurus with any degree of recognition. After all, they had the NSU Ro 80 and the European Ford designs, which predate the Taurus.

Michaell

 What about a first generation SHO, if any are available? 

uplanderguy

I can't see why anyone would collect an '80's or later car, but that's a function of my age. Older guys probably felt the same way about '50's through '70's cars. People collect what they remember.

Mr_Shiftright

Anyone can "collect" old cars, that's true, but to spend discretionary income on them requires a real enthusiasm for what you have. Would anyone these days spend $7500 to paint and upholster a Taurus? (and that would be cheap).

stickguy

I guess what we are talking about here is Andre. Collecting cars of a vintage and top that means something to him (and few others). But not restored. just reasonably good condition solid old cars. Only real restoration is the Desoto, and that is at this point a collectible anyway.

no one is ever restoring a 4 door 1976 Mopar sedan, unless they hit lotto and say what the heck. Probably same deal for Fin's Fin. Enjoy, maintain, don't restore.

fintail

I can think of numerous 80s and even 90s cars I'd like to have, but most of them are German or Japanese.

Yes, nobody is going to restore a Taurus. Nobody in their right mind would even restore most 50-60 year old sedans of any make, a 1986 Taurus or even a SHO might never get there. I don't know if anyone here has claimed otherwise. A car, however, can have a "special interest" classification without being in the restoration crowd. Like stickguy says, just nice fun old cars. Restore for a labor of love, as you'll never run in the black.

uplanderguy

I restored a Studebaker Lark when it was 30 years old, and probably most people outside the Studebaker hobby would think that was crazy! NOS was dirt-cheap and available, most of what wasn't available NOS was reproduced, and I found a Studebaker guy in western PA who was a whopping $21 an hour. He did a great job within my budget on my car and I enjoyed the car for 23 years. I'd say overall, I came pretty close to breaking even on the car, although I figured my enjoyment of the car is worth something.

sda

You really can't put a value on enjoyment, that is the ultimate reward in my opinion. While it is enjoyable to you, it may not be to me. But that's it--your enjoyment!

I remember when I was in college and I bought and sold some cheap cars. A '65 Cutlass hardtop, optioned similar to a 442 had factory buckets, console, tach, 330 high compression 4bbl/single exhaust, was one I (20:20 hindsight) should have kept. That car I could still enjoy.

One car that gave me tremendous enjoyment and I lost money on was a '70 DeVille convertible. It was originally the local dealer's wife's car and was fully loaded. I think the only thing it didn't have was the split bench seat. It had the auto on/off lights and auto diming, tilt, telescope wheel, rear defrost, 4 speaker am/fm stereo, separate factory Cadillac 8 track mounted under the dash, a/c, pw, pl, 6 way pwr seat, trunk release with lid pull down, auto leveling rear (air shocks) suspension. It was pretty worn out but solid when I bought it in '82. I spent 2 years painting, fixing it up and enjoyed driving it. My dad even picked up his boss at the airport in it when his '79 Eldorado Diesel was in the shop (again). I reluctantly sold it as I was moving to NC and needed the money. I know I lost money on it, but the enjoyment I had with it is still a good memory.

uplanderguy

Speaking of 442, I was at a wake at a farm in NW PA this past Sunday, for a friend who had died of cancer last fall. He wanted his cremains shot out of a shotgun and that is indeed what we, his friends, and his family did. We had a dinner afterwards.

His widow has a '68 442 which she quit driving around 30 years ago. It's stored in the barn, but on dirt floor (I know). She asked me beforehand if I could take a look at it. I couldn't get underneath it at all since it's on four flat tires, but amazingly, the doors still close like a vault, the vinyl top is virtually perfect, and there is zero visible rustout in the body, although the paint is getting weak.

I took all the numbers off the car and posted on an Olds forum. My long-time thought was, "Is it really a 442" and it is, and I was surprised to see the cowl tag read "MADE IN CANADA".

She lived in a dorm room number "442" and decided she wanted a 442 based on the '76-77, and '78-79 cars she'd seen with the huge "442" graphics. When her Dad bought her a '68, she was disappointed! LOL

tjc78

Yes, there is an enjoyment factor. Many of you know my affection for the Panther platform. I've owned several and really miss having my 89 Town Car. I've told the wife another is to come when the finances again allow a toy car.

What I will buy is a well kept low mileage original, not some time capsule but an under 75K miles car that I can drive. I'll keep it nice and do what it needs, but never sink crazy amounts of money I won't get back.

I also wouldn't mind another 78 or 79 Town Coupe.

Good thing for me many of the cars I like aren't collectible and available fairly inexpensive.

fintail

If I could have labor at $21 an hour (even in 1990 dollars), and have it be decent quality, I would consider restoration, too, even with MB parts prices. Easy to maybe break even then, reminds me of people who pine on about the virtues of buying a house in Seattle when they did so in 1985 I suspect real world labor rates in good shops even for driver quality restorations are above $100/hr, at least on the west coast.

Enjoyment is definitely something that should be included - in a way, it is like time, it is kind of priceless. I enjoy driving my old car, more so than any modern car I have driven. It's an experience.

texases

While I have no idea if the numbers are accurate, one thing I like about the "FantomWorks" restoration show is how he tells the customer how much it actually cost for parts, and hours worked. Last show also had the total, so I worked out that he charges somewhere between $60-$65/hour on average. Recent one had a '68 Mustang repaired with an engine hop-up and suspension/brakes upgrade, about $20k in parts, $20k in labor. No paint.

The other vehicle was a 1950-era Willys Jeep in military trim, lots of odds and ends for $20k total (no paint or engine work). I especially liked that he pronounced "Willys" right, as in 'Will-iss', instead of 'Willy's'.

uplanderguy

The years always just melted off me when I climbed in my Lark. Too bad the pounds didn't!

The shop I used is called Westmoreland Restorations (had been just '...Studebaker' back then) and has done Senior Firsts at AACA Hershey. His rate was $21 when he had my car from '93-95. He worked with me on level of restoration and I accumulated most parts in South Bend myself (I considered it fun) and asked me what I wanted. I wanted an authentic-looking driver, in and out, and he said, "OK, don't change your mind in the middle!". I didn't. And this guy owned a bunch of Studebakers himself.

I had bought the car in '88 and drove it as-is until '93.

stickguy

I like that too, and was surprised that the labor rate wasn't higher.

ab348

texases said:

While I have no idea if the numbers are accurate, one thing I like about the "FantomWorks" restoration show is how he tells the customer how much it actually cost for parts, and hours worked. Last show also had the total, so I worked out that he charges somewhere between $60-$65/hour on average. Recent one had a '68 Mustang repaired with an engine hop-up and suspension/brakes upgrade, about $20k in parts, $20k in labor. No paint.

The other vehicle was a 1950-era Willys Jeep in military trim, lots of odds and ends for $20k total (no paint or engine work). I especially liked that he pronounced "Willys" right, as in 'Will-iss', instead of 'Willy's'.

I believe I have heard Dan the owner state that his shop rate is $75 an hour.

fintail

Last time I checked, the MB Classic Center in Irvine is at $125/hr, which actually seems kind of cheap for what it is. If I somehow stumbled into a jackpot, it would be tempting to send the fintail there. Otherwise, I will just keep it clean, keep an eye on things as I can, and fix problems when they arise.

I already had guesstimates in my head for driver quality local work (~10K for body and paint, ~15K for powertrain, etc), I expect that would double if I sent it away.

uplanderguy

Thanks for humoring me, all, but here's probably my favorite angle of that old Lark. I always liked the stubby rear-end and detail styling of the car.

http://www.studebakerskytop.com/billpresslerpics3.jpg

That car had an excellent 'burble', duals.

I like 'offbeat'.

Someone before me had gone through all the V8 '63 Lark production orders (build sheets) and recorded all the ones with 'Avanti' engines. My wife and I went through those 628 sheets and found that only 14 cars were built with the combination of engine with sun roof. My car was the first serial number built with both options. I'm aware of two other restored examples besides mine--both are red; one 4-speed and one floor-shift automatic. Mine was a column-shift automatic.

There were 75,377 1963-model Larks built, but more than half were six-cylinders.

Only 3,763 were two-door hardtops.

uplanderguy

Someone mentioned above, Willys being pronounced "Willis". I never heard that 'til about a decade ago and supposedly "Willis" is the correct pronounciation. Like most folks, I grew up hearing "Willies".

stever

That's the way I learned it from my dad's partner who had a Jeepster. And if enough of keep saying it wrong, we'll fix it in the end.

(Wiki says it's okay either way).

explorerx4

Feeling ambitious?
http://hartford.craigslist.org/cto/5625115899.html

tjc78

What could possibly go wrong... 

stickguy

if you are stinking rich, nothing.

problem is, even if you spent the 100K to make it perfect, and gave it to me, I still wouldn't want it. so sure as heck not spending a ton of $ on it.

fintail

He's at most of the price for a mint one already. Delusional dreamer, the ad reads like he thinks he has a 300SL or a 250 GTO or something.

Mr_Shiftright

It's a rare thing, but occasionally a car is produced that can never be made right, and this is one of them.

texases

Put a carb in an Easy Bake Oven, run gas through it, then guess what - instant vapor lock. 

steine13

>> occasionally a car is produced that can never be made right,

Shifty, if you hadn't said it, I would have quoted you on it from years ago.
That car and that comment have stuck with me.
What truly special automobile.

AND IT'S NOT EVEN PRETTY!!!

Mr_Shiftright

I think Top Gear actually crushed one, didn't they?

I think what I said back then was that it takes just as much genius to make something completely and utterly bad as it does to make something brilliant.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh goodie...I found the Top Gear review of the Bi-Turbo. To get the full idea, you only have to watch up to the 60 second mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mPZBvX-gdE

fintail

Here's an interesting way to modify one of those:

http://www.dailyturismo.com/2016/06/wheeler-dealer-maserletric-1985.html

Mr_Shiftright

$35,000? They must be kidding. You could buy a used Nissan Leaf for that with all the modern amenities. Too bad it wasn't an old Quattroporto--now that would be cool.

EDIT: You can buy a used Nissan Leaf for $10K I bet.

texases

Leaf? I bet you could get a deal on a new i3 for near $35k.

stickguy

Interesting. Wonder how hard it would be to take a clean non runner, and do an engine swap? Basically strip out the nightmare stuff and plug in a modern engine and associated electrics. Assuming of course, you really like the style!

Of course, this falls into the rich guy having fun category, since I'm sure it would be like lighting a bushel of $100s on fire.

Hmm, will a hemi fit? SBC crate motor?

Mr_Shiftright

texases said:

Leaf? I bet you could get a deal on a new i3 for near $35k.

Oops--I meant a used one for $10K. Thanks for the catch.

Mr_Shiftright

texases said:

Leaf? I bet you could get a deal on a new i3 for near $35k.

Oops--I meant a used one for $10K. Thanks for the catch.

stickguy said:

Interesting. Wonder how hard it would be to take a clean non runner, and do an engine swap? Basically strip out the nightmare stuff and plug in a modern engine and associated electrics. Assuming of course, you really like the style!

Of course, this falls into the rich guy having fun category, since I'm sure it would be like lighting a bushel of $100s on fire.

Hmm, will a hemi fit? SBC crate motor?

You can pretty much fit anything into (or onto) anything with enough money, time and skill.

I'd try a Mazda RX-8 motor.

Well the car has a "nice" interior, as in "Petty Criminal in Rome" nice.

fintail

I've seen used Leafs for like $7K. The oldest ones are 5+ years old now. Rolling some dice there.

Those Biturbos look too much like 80s Sentras to me.

stickguy

I was thinking a rotary. They fit anywhere. And high revving sounds Italian!

Style is certainly a certain age and genre, but a well sorted one running a rotary? I'd try that.

As you can tell, if I finally hit the lotto and retire with money, I am going to do something really stupid (automotive wise)

Mr_Shiftright

fintail said:

I've seen used Leafs for like $7K. The oldest ones are 5+ years old now. Rolling some dice there.

Those Biturbos look too much like 80s Sentras to me.

Really? $7K? That's a pretty good deal....

fintail

Here's one in my area:

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-2011-Nissan-Leaf-c22207#listing=133281439

Mr_Shiftright

HUH...California car....wonder how it got there?

fintail

Just one of the wave of immigrants, I am sure

Mr_Shiftright

Must have been a long extension cord, too.