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Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That's been in dispute for a long time. Some books say that (like Sessler's Red Book) but most of the expert websites insist that no 307 SS has ever been documented with a build sheet.

    "72 SS's were available with 350 on up. No six cylinders or 307's were produced (that turned up to be legit)." (Chevelles.Com forums)

    "As with 1971, the 307 cubic inch engine could not be ordered with the Z15 option since it was not an optional engine but rather the base V8 engine. No documented 307 has been reported with the Z15 option." (Chevellestuff.com).




  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,284
    I didn't know about that change to the SS option in '71 until earlier today. The '71 brochure confirms it.


    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    edited December 2016
    Right, no 307 SS's, verified by the 1972 Chevelle brochure, engine availability page near the back. The earlier page that is the marketing folks' page about the SS mentions the 307, but that's one of the two goofs I am familiar with in '70's Chevy brochures. It's corrected on the more detailed engine availability page in the same brochure.

    The other visible '70's Chevy brochure goof I can see is the Nova style (14-inch) Rally Wheels shown on a '74 Chevelle Malibu in the brochure. You could get Rally Wheels, but they were the slotted style in 15-inch only. I remember that all the way back to when those cars were new!

    I remember being disappointed when I first saw a '72 Chevelle. I couldn't believe the only visible differences at all were the front parking lights and grille--and both I thought weren't as nice as the '71, above. I do think there were some nice new colors for '72. I couldn't stand the lime green ("Green Gold") seen so often on '71's. Not a fan of that bright gold as in the '71 brochure photo, above. I remember a lot of them that color.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    edited December 2016
    No disrespect intended, but I've seen some bogus stuff on chevelles.com over the years about the '68 Concours coupe. Most have been posts from readers, though. Can't pull any up right now in the old brain, but some were just out there.

    I probably could write a book myself just on errors I've found in coffee table "expert" books and websites about cars, LOL.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,413

    Sagging headliner, water or sun damage right rear seat/headliner area, chipped paint, door misaligned, extra battery on front floor, missing radio..and painted over weatherstipping is never a good sign.



    Problem is, you'd have to tear it apart to make it decent. You can buy an SS that's real nice for $25K--$30K, so can you get from HERE to THERE for $22K?

    I hear you. My thinking is can I have something now that I can drive and enjoy for 4 figures but honestly, with a house and 2 kids, I don't know when $25k can happen
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2016

    No disrespect intended, but I've seen some bogus stuff on chevelles.com over the years about the '68 Concours coupe. Most have been posts from readers, though. Can't pull any up right now in the old brain, but some were just out there.

    I probably could write a book myself just on errors I've found in coffee table "expert" books and websites about cars, LOL.

    Like I always say---without a build sheet, protecto-plate or window sticker, they got nothin' --and even those must be carefully scrutinized for forgery.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Just do like they do in the art world. Sell a fake Chevelle to Jon Voight, confess and give him his money back, then turn around and auction it off with an exotic stolen provenance that includes fooling all the experts a famous actor hired to vet the purchase.

    Profit.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    edited December 2016
    On a car as inexpensive as that one first presented here--first thing I do is lose that hood!

    The things I see make me think more than not that it is an SS. If they were so sloppy about putting SS front fender emblems on it, they were sure perfectly neat in integrating that standard-with-SS instrument panel and putting the "SS" front door panel badges on. They apparently also took off the Malibu's rocker trim and filled the holes. :) (SS's did not have rocker trim.)

    The front fenders have been replaced at some point--even the Malibu had a big nameplate mounted through holes there.

    I can remember exactly one light blue '72 SS convertible, new, at our dealer's. Unusual to see at our small-town dealer, and it disappeared quickly, which made me think it had been a retail order. I remember being pretty impressed. Of course, '72 was the last year for GM intermediate convertibles. I know the car being discussed is a hardtop, but it seems that the convertibles are not seen often today, for sure.

    About living at our local Chevy dealer is what I was doing when other guys my age were playing football, LOL.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Took the old dear out in the terrible Saturday traffic today, as I might not get another chance this year. Cold day here - it was about 35F in the garage when I started the car, mid 20s outside. Started right up but idled very slow and stalled. Second turn - started right up, ran slowly, quickly became normal. I suppose it is still easier than carbs. No warm up issues, once it is running, it is running like a normal car. The car drove and performed fine - I got to lock it up in traffic thanks to a typical clueless local driver who jammed on the brakes on a busy road to make what I am sure was an illegal left turn. Got to honk a couple times too. If cars can think, I bet the car is as amazed at the dumbed down modern driving talent level as I am.

    It was actually snowing lightly when I snapped this pic - car hasn't been out in snow in a long time:

    image
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    We have snow on the ground and the roads are salty, ugh.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    It's been quite a few years since I have had the car out in real snow, and even then it was patchy. Maybe 15 years since I have had it in consistent snow. It performs fine, not a lot of torque to get you in trouble :) . If it had been bought new in Ohio etc, I doubt the car would have survived.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,957
    Was there salt on the roads?

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I'll bet that Fin throws out a lot of emissions in that cold weather. I remember driving my dad's 60 Ford with a manual choke in Chicago cold. Took no chances and kept that baby pulled out until it was fully warmed up. Someone behind me was eating black smoke :D
  • fortee9erfortee9er Member Posts: 134
    Fintail is that a W110 or W111? I get confused with Mercedes model numbers in the 1960s. I have a W108 and a W109 and find those easier to recognize. But there was a period when they all coexisted and that is really confusing.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    It's a W111 220SE. And yeah, the mid 60s can be a bit of a jumble in terms of MB platforms. The 1965-68 range is when all 4 were made alongside each other, and a trickle of W112 too.

    Easiest way to differentiate a W110 from W111 is that the W110 has single headlights, where a W111 has W108/109 style lights. W110 are mostly 4cyl cars, save for the 230. W111 are all I6 save for the final run of V8 coupes and cabrios. W112 look like W111 but with more chrome, fancier interior, and they are all the big I6 with air suspension.
    fortee9er said:

    Fintail is that a W110 or W111? I get confused with Mercedes model numbers in the 1960s. I have a W108 and a W109 and find those easier to recognize. But there was a period when they all coexisted and that is really confusing.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I think the gunky sand/gravel mix they have started using in the past few years might have salt. A chemical (brine?) de-icer is also used, often when not needed. But salt on roads here is quite unusual.

    tjc78 said:

    Was there salt on the roads?

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited December 2016
    As it predates even rudimentary emissions controls by several years, I think it puts out a lot of emissions no matter the weather. That it needs a little valve work (puffs smoke if it gets hot sitting in traffic) doesn't help with that either B) Of course, it is FI, which should give a more efficient fuel mixture than a carb car. The engine in my car ceased production in 1965, never having met the smog pump.

    I took the car out again today - I suspected the forecast was optimistic, and it might be nice today. I was right - no rain during the day here, a little snow some distance to the north, but pleasant and cold here. Similar conditions this morning to yesterday, similar starting behavior, once running, it performed admirably. I got an "I love your car" comment from an older woman in a late 00s Impala.

    Gratuitous shot from the garage where it sleeps - covered car on the left is a 64 Pontiac convertible that never moves, covered car at right is a 55 Chevy that never moves, there's also a 66 Toronado that seldom moves, an Avanti II that seldom moves, a 66 Continental convertible that seldom moves, a Gallardo that seldom moves, a 94-96 Impala SS that never moves, a boat that never moves, etc. I am pretty sure my car is the most active in the bunch:

    image
    berri said:

    I'll bet that Fin throws out a lot of emissions in that cold weather. I remember driving my dad's 60 Ford with a manual choke in Chicago cold. Took no chances and kept that baby pulled out until it was fully warmed up. Someone behind me was eating black smoke :D

  • sdasda Member Posts: 7,580
    fintail said:

    As it predates even rudimentary emissions controls by several years, I think it puts out a lot of emissions no matter the weather. That it needs a little valve work (puffs smoke if it gets hot sitting in traffic) doesn't help with that either B) Of course, it is FI, which should give a more efficient fuel mixture than a carb car. The engine in my car ceased production in 1965, never having met the smog pump.

    I took the car out again today - I suspected the forecast was optimistic, and it might be nice today. I was right - no rain during the day here, a little snow some distance to the north, but pleasant and cold here. Similar conditions this morning to yesterday, similar starting behavior, once running, it performed admirably. I got an "I love your car" comment from an older woman in a late 00s Impala.

    Gratuitous shot from the garage where it sleeps - covered car on the left is a 64 Pontiac convertible that never moves, covered car at right is a 55 Chevy that never moves, there's also a 66 Toronado that seldom moves, an Avanti II that seldom moves, a 66 Continental convertible that seldom moves, a Gallardo that seldom moves, a 94-96 Impala SS that never moves, a boat that never moves, etc. I am pretty sure my car is the most active in the bunch:

    image

    berri said:

    I'll bet that Fin throws out a lot of emissions in that cold weather. I remember driving my dad's 60 Ford with a manual choke in Chicago cold. Took no chances and kept that baby pulled out until it was fully warmed up. Someone behind me was eating black smoke :D

    Do you put a cover on yours when it sleeps?

    2021 VW Arteon SEL 4-motion, 2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well gee, why would those people actually want to DRIVE their classic cars? They could break down and require a tow truck. Someone could back into them. It could rain, Some gangsters from Canada might vandalize them. A tree branch could fall on them. They could catch fire. They could be caught in a flood.

    Be afraid, be very afraid. B)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    I'd be a little more scared driving an old car today than even ten years ago--more phone time while driving, texting, etc. My wife and I have been hit from behind in our daily cars in the past few years--and those have a center high-mounted stop light.

    Although I hate the looks of them, I'd be compelled to add a third brake light to whatever old car I'd buy down the road.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Yep, amazing how dusty things can get even in a garage. My car is also nearest to the door, so it gets leaves and such kicked up on it. Not really seeking the barnfind look :)
    sda said:


    Do you put a cover on yours when it sleeps?

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    What gets me is that these are fairly ordinary cars - it's not a garage filled with gullwings and Ferrari GTOs. Yet they do not seem to move, and I am certain that some never move. Why have a normal driver old car if it isn't driven?

    I've never thought of a CHMSL in the fintail - it might not make a lot of difference anyway, as I use engine braking a bit (sounds good, and the car is geared for it anyway). I accept the risk, and also try to drive mostly on low traffic days and mostly not on the most crowded roads.

    Well gee, why would those people actually want to DRIVE their classic cars? They could break down and require a tow truck. Someone could back into them. It could rain, Some gangsters from Canada might vandalize them. A tree branch could fall on them. They could catch fire. They could be caught in a flood.

    Be afraid, be very afraid. B)

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2016
    Letting an old car sit for years just ruins them, it really does, unless you undertake the most thorough storage procedures (which in my experience 99% of people don't).

    so what happens? Well, tires get ruined, gas spoils, rodents attack, moisture and mildew accumulate, seals shrink, belts and hoses deteriorate, oil and coolant degrade. Two or three years of cold storage can cost you a couple thousand bucks just in rehab costs, to say nothing of the storage cost itself (unless it's in the back forty or your own garage).

    I once did this estate appraisal where the deceased owner pretty much ruined 1/4 million dollars worth of cars through neglect.
  • sdasda Member Posts: 7,580
    Why have a hobby or collector car if you don't drive it? That is a huge enjoyment factor to me. By not running the car, at least periodically, all sorts of problems tend to occur such as frozen brake cylinders, dried out gaskets, rodent infestation. Enjoy and drive your pride and joy!

    2021 VW Arteon SEL 4-motion, 2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Where else would we get all those 'ran when parked' CL ads?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That's an edited statement---it meant to say "ran like crap when I parked it, which is why I parked it".

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    I used to put about 2K miles a year on my white '63 Studebaker....and enjoyed most every minute.

    Drove it to South Bend (five hours each way) three times, and drove my '66 to the 2012 international meet there, taking two-lane roads more than half the way. I absolutely loved it, although I arrived wringing wet with sweat.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    edited December 2016
    On a safety-in-storage thing, I always had a cheap battery disconnect switch on my Studes. But, I have friends who'd say "nah". Couldn't give a reason, other than not wanting to spend ten bucks or less. Why chance your house going up in flames? Seems like cheap insurance to me.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well ten bucks to a Studebaker owner can be a big deal! :p
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I put maybe 1500 miles a year on the fintail, some years slightly higher. I think it keeps everything in running order. As the car still runs so well, I like to think I am doing something right, or at least not harming it.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    We're used to cheap, available NOS and reproduction. :)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Well ten bucks to a Studebaker owner can be a big deal!

    Especially if it was a Scotsman B)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I know, you guys are spoiled.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    Lark sheetmetal and soft trim, especially.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    edited December 2016
    fintail said:

    image

    When did you repaint your Fintail gray?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Those are the colors of the official Seattle flag! :p
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,685

    fintail said:

    image

    When did you repaint your Fintail gray?
    Hahah! I think the high-quality low sodium vapor lighting is to thank for that particular respray. :D
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Yep, that's a dark garage, minimal lighting, and a cameraphone. My car is a chameleon :)

    I shudder to think what quality paint and bodywork would cost for that car, many multiples of what I paid for it.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,413
    Gift Shopping

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5925799071.html Know nothing about these. Looks as clean as can be

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5925769741.html Seriously liking this

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5925577460.html Since these have gone through the roof, I guess there is something here

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5909628507.html SUV alternative

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5909582395.html Very cool, have no idea on the price

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5909620460.html Starion, don't see these anymore but this is a pretty cool car

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/ctd/5925275726.html Restomod Mustang. Should have a stick

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5918740784.html Skyline Sedan
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    fintail said:

    Yep, that's a dark garage, minimal lighting, and a cameraphone. My car is a chameleon :)

    I shudder to think what quality paint and bodywork would cost for that car, many multiples of what I paid for it.

    We could probably get you a fairly decent repaint, trim off, glass out, for around $8,000 (and up).
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Always liked the Audi GT, kind of like a 5/4 Scirocco. Price seems high, maybe somebody from Germany would like it?
    Those Starions are getting a lot more respect now than when they were new. Kind of like the MB 190E W201 and the first gen M3.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2016
    gsemike said:

    Gift Shopping

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5925799071.html Know nothing about these. Looks as clean as can be

    82 Audi--probably one of only a handful of really collectible Audis out there but this isn't the Holy Grail--that would be the Quattro Turbo, which is considerably more valuable than this low HP FWD model. I think he's reaching for the sky here, even with the pristine condition and low miles. But as they say, with cars like this in such unusual condition, maybe he can get that 25% over high retail he's asking.

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5925769741.html Seriously liking this

    '66 Plymouth----price is more than fair.

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5925577460.html Since these have gone through the roof, I guess there is something here

    '74 Bronco--probably a real rat.

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5909628507.html SUV alternative

    Hey it's the Wagon Queen Family Truckster!!

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5909582395.html Very cool, have no idea on the price

    64 Chrysler 300 -- by this time, the "300" had become rather meaningless as a designation. Price is ridiculous---his price might be attainable for a pristine, show quality nut and bolt restoration. He's got a long way to go---$8K is all the money here, if you even want one.

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5909620460.html Starion, don't see these anymore but this is a pretty cool car

    87 Starion -- it is kind of a cool car for its time, but it's not on anyone's radar. Owner will be keeping it for a long, long time at that price. Try $4,500 take $4K gratefully.

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/ctd/5925275726.html Restomod Mustang. Should have a stick

    '66 Mustang Restomod -- for this kind of money, you have to stand out from the battalions of Mustang restomods out there built up from a catalog---I dunno, seems optimistic given how he presents the car. For this money, this car should be pretty tasty top to bottom.

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5918740784.html Skyline Sedan

    Skyline Sedan -- I really have no feel for the boy racer market. He certainly seems to have put a pile into it. This is just one of those cars where you dangle the bait and see what happens.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    If the Starion is as good as it looks, I could see it being a 7K-ish car. These have a fanbase. But at 10K, not yet.

    Audi is pretty cool, but like Shifty says, not a Quattro (it would be worth a lot more if it was). At least it isn't an automatic, which I suspect had about a 25K mile lifespan.

    Skyline looks like a private import purchased originally for 5K and then used as a profit center. Good luck. Big Mercury wagon would be interesting at a much lower price. 66 Plymouth is the bargain.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    As it is not a restored car by any means, it also needs some bodywork - lots of little dings etc, and a few small rust areas. If I ever came into a fortune and wanted to restore the car, I have thought I would budget 10K minimum for that.



    We could probably get you a fairly decent repaint, trim off, glass out, for around $8,000 (and up).

  • sdasda Member Posts: 7,580
    edited December 2016
    I always think it's a shame when a car originally had factory a/c and it was removed for what ever reason. That '65 Fury is a good example. It would annoy me every time I looked at the a/c-heat climate controls knowing that the a/c is no longer there---a bad tease. :@

    2021 VW Arteon SEL 4-motion, 2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech

  • fortee9erfortee9er Member Posts: 134
    Re: Skyline. I see a lot of ads for these "JDM" cars and the asking prices generally range from $20k to $, np 30K so $13k seems cheap by comparison. Not for me though. My neighbor bought one for his kid. It is a racecar for the street. At least it gives the appearance of being one, roll cage, stripped interior, no a/c or heat no radio....etc.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    That one's been stripped, then. They didn't come that way from the factory, I think.

    But for his kid? With RHD? Driven by a teen? NUTS!
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,284
    fintail said:

    What gets me is that these are fairly ordinary cars - it's not a garage filled with gullwings and Ferrari GTOs. Yet they do not seem to move, and I am certain that some never move. Why have a normal driver old car if it isn't driven?


    From 1990 to '97 I lived in a large apartment building (22 floors, over 400 apartments) that had 2 levels of underground parking. Because not everyone had a car, the first level directly off the street was full, but the level below that was mostly empty and they rented space for car storage. I kept both my cars there, the '64 Skylark convertible and then the '68 Cutlass when I bought it in '93. They lived side by side with a wall one side and nobody else in the row on the other side.

    Not too far away was a '67 Malibu 2-door HT, not a SS but a very nice car. 327, 4-speed, buckets, Corvette wheels. It had good paint but it was a rather dull-looking medium blue metallic. I think it was a restored car and not original but restored very faithfully. The thing about the car that fascinated me was that for all the time I was there, it never moved, just getting dustier and dustier. I would have loved to talk to the owner - heck, I would have liked to buy it - but never saw anyone near it. Have never seen it anywhere since I moved out either. Who knows, maybe it is still there.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    That's similar to where I store my car - although not in a highrise, it is in a large apartment complex, and there appears to be more garage spots than cars. Fine with me, as it is relatively close to where I live (my building was built with one garage spot per unit - pity the couples who live here, but still better than the crooked planning in Seattle). That also makes me wonder - I am in a relatively high rent area. If one isn't going to visit the car and drive it anyway, why not store it in a cheaper area?

    I started parking there about 4 years ago, and the Impala was there then. It might have moved once. There was one guy who had 3 cars there, and he drove them all, I met him frequently - he had a RR Shadow, an early Esprit, and a 70s 911. He moved far enough away to where he found storage elsewhere.
    ab348 said:


    From 1990 to '97 I lived in a large apartment building (22 floors, over 400 apartments) that had 2 levels of underground parking. Because not everyone had a car, the first level directly off the street was full, but the level below that was mostly empty and they rented space for car storage. I kept both my cars there, the '64 Skylark convertible and then the '68 Cutlass when I bought it in '93. They lived side by side with a wall one side and nobody else in the row on the other side.
    Who knows, maybe it is still there.

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    From everything I read, I think the People's Republic of Seattle government is going to eventually blow it and push companies away. I recently read that migration out of Silicon Valley is starting to occur. You can't just keep increasing regulations and taxes. That party eventually comes to an ugly end.
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