Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

Mr_Shiftright

It would be a good idea to review the receipts on a car like that. People use the term "new" transmission with a certain carelessness IMO--it could be a used unit, it could be a partial overhaul, it could be a reman--but doubtful it is "new".

Same with engine "rebuilds"----"rebuilt" means you machine or replace everything inside so that it meets factory specs. If you've just done rings and bearings and a valve job, that's an "overhaul", not a rebuild.

qbrozen

qbrozen said:

volvo "cx90" huh? Alrighty then.
well, he doesnt say WHICH engine. A T6 would not be on its original trans and a 2.5T being so short-lived would be quite rare. Hmmm

Oh, he did say "new trans." I missed that. Must be a T6. So depends on the trans details. 80k is about right on lifespan of those.

qbrozen

I think I posted this before. It is still for sale and I am still very much interested in it. I think there are many more pics than before, though, and it keeps getting cheaper.

Tempest

uplanderguy

If that car was a coupe, and particularly if it had the V8, I'd absolutely want it.

I can't understand why the dealer continues to advertise it as a 1961. It is clearly a 1962 hood and grille--not even close to the '61 frontal styling.

He may have new-car sale paperwork in it that shows a 1961 purchase date, who knows.

ab348

The VIN shown in the ad says it is a '62 also.

texases

How's the gearshift work in that?  Kind of odd that the seats have three even seating areas. Small car trying to look big?

bhill2

The shifter is the lever below the dash just to the right of the steering wheel. The indicator is in the silver-edged display in the dash above the shifter. Just grab the lever and move up or down.

texases

bhill2 said:

The shifter is the lever below the dash just to the right of the steering wheel. The indicator is in the silver-edged display in the dash above the shifter. Just grab the lever and move up or down.

OK, now I see it. I'd probably bump it with my knee (long legs). I've never seen that arrangement - they must have been off the road by the time I started working at the gas station/garage (1972). That 4-cyl + AT = 'leisurely acceleration', I imagine.

imidazol97

That Tempest is sweet to my eyes. It's rare to see one as original as that one. I did see two at a Columbus car group's show Saturday cruise last summer. They weren't the same year, but it's just rare in the Midwest to see survivors in that condition.

qbrozen

agreed. Seems a rare survivor, and I am in love with the styling. 4 doors is just fine by me. Yeah, I'd probably prefer not have a 4-banger, but for the money? Hell, I could eventually drop a v8 in there if I wanted. haha.

Too bad I am in no shape right now to make a move.

imidazol97

qbrozen said:

Seems a rare survivor, and I am in love with the styling. 4 doors is just fine by me. Yeah, I'd probably prefer not have a 4-banger, but for the money? Hell, I could eventually drop a v8 in there if I wanted.

My biggest disappointment is to see a nonstandard engine tucked into a classic car, especially with chrome everything on it. But, it's their car. E.g., a Valiant with a massive V8 and two 4-barrel carbs on top, hole in the hood, etc..

When it's a standard car with no noticeable changes, I usually compliment the owner if they're nearby for doing it that way. I think the folks who put in chrome engine parts, a different glossy paint color, a custom interior get attention and the folks who kept theirs standard and sometimes pedantic don't get reaction from the patrons at the cruise in or show.

bhill2

texases said:

bhill2 said:

The shifter is the lever below the dash just to the right of the steering wheel. The indicator is in the silver-edged display in the dash above the shifter. Just grab the lever and move up or down.

OK, now I see it. I'd probably bump it with my knee (long legs). I've never seen that arrangement - they must have been off the road by the time I started working at the gas station/garage (1972). That 4-cyl + AT = 'leisurely acceleration', I imagine.

The only other place I've seen that arrangement was the first-gen Corvair.

ab348

bhill2 said:

texases said:

bhill2 said:

The shifter is the lever below the dash just to the right of the steering wheel. The indicator is in the silver-edged display in the dash above the shifter. Just grab the lever and move up or down.

OK, now I see it. I'd probably bump it with my knee (long legs). I've never seen that arrangement - they must have been off the road by the time I started working at the gas station/garage (1972). That 4-cyl + AT = 'leisurely acceleration', I imagine.

The only other place I've seen that arrangement was the first-gen Corvair.

Keep in mind that like the Corvair, the Tempest used a transaxle, so the shifting mechanism was likely very similar.

qbrozen

imidazol97 said:

qbrozen said:

Seems a rare survivor, and I am in love with the styling. 4 doors is just fine by me. Yeah, I'd probably prefer not have a 4-banger, but for the money? Hell, I could eventually drop a v8 in there if I wanted.

My biggest disappointment is to see a nonstandard engine tucked into a classic car, especially with chrome everything on it. But, it's their car. E.g., a Valiant with a massive V8 and two 4-barrel carbs on top, hole in the hood, etc..

When it's a standard car with no noticeable changes, I usually compliment the owner if they're nearby for doing it that way. I think the folks who put in chrome engine parts, a different glossy paint color, a custom interior get attention and the folks who kept theirs standard and sometimes pedantic don't get reaction from the patrons at the cruise in or show.

We've certainly discussed that before. I'm not terribly concerned with keeping a pedestrian and low-performing car original. Basically, if the car is worth MORE modified than original, then have at it, IMHO.

And I disagree with the attention. All the rage these days is all original, untouched vehicles.

Mr_Shiftright

Well all the serious restorers like original cars, to use as templates.

There are plenty of cars that are worth more modified than original--usually these are common, somewhat pedestrian vehicles that have been customized. 4-door cars, pickups, oddballs that aren't Big Three---all these might benefit from not staying stock.

fortee9er

Since you are all discussing the Tempest I just saw this ad http://houston.craigslist.org/cto/5943860892.html

berri

Not fond of the low rider suspension, but otherwise that is kind of a neat, and unique vehicle. I like it!

fortee9er

I have no interest in Pontiac Tempests I just saw the ad and though of adding it to the conversation. It is a neat little wagon.

Mr_Shiftright

Took a look at a '69 Porsche 911T today. What a mess--just plum wore out. Nice ones can bring $80K. I pegged this one about $7500. It did run though, after a fashion. Nothing that $80,000 wouldn't fix.

explorerx4

@Mr_Shiftright,
How did the owner handle it? Was it like telling them 'Your kid is ugly'?

fortee9er

Took a look at a '69 Porsche 911T today. What a mess--just plum wore out. Nice ones can bring $80K. I pegged this one about $7500. It did run though, after a fashion. Nothing that $80,000 wouldn't fix.

I sold a '66 912 that was extremely rusty for nearly $5k, on eBay, last year. A 1969 911T that is running will surely fetch at least twice what you appraised.
https://goo.gl/photos/x1Q8D4gCQKLemTLa7

Mr_Shiftright

Oh you have to be very careful and diplomatic. I always try to stick very strictly to tangible facts. If you can point to a dent, rust hole or bad welding job, it's pretty difficult for the owner to deny that these things exists. A dent is not an "opinion".

Mostly the problem is that some owners have no idea how expensive it is to correct some problems. Rebuilding a leaking, wheezing Porsche engine that has fuel in the engine oil is not cheap---these aren't small block Chevys.

Also, they look at auction results on the Internet and figure "ok, that restored one is worth $80,000, so mine, being a bit shabby.....oh, let's say half of that".

Er.....no.

It's interesting, but values on the more "exotic" collector cars are *not* linear, as they might be on a Chevelle. A car that is twice as bad as another isn't worth half. It might be worth 1/10th, because the restoration costs are proportionally higher.

In reality, if one wanted to be brutal about it, that '69 Porsche is worth practically nothing at all, in terms of the cost of restoration. It's a small-parts car.

fortee9er

People (potential buyers) look at these wrecks with rose tinted glasses and delude themselves on how much a restoration, or just getting it back on the road, is going to cost. I have sold a few "exotics" over the last few years for the same reason, restoration cost, and I was amazed at what the cars brought. So I am not complaining at all I smiled all the way to the bank.
Your customer will probably sell that Porsche for more than your appraisal and he is going to be very happy that he did so well. Better this way than over value the car and have a disapointed customer when he sells it.

fortee9er

I should mention that all the cars I sold were all non-runners and some of them had rust to some degree or another. I did sell one that had a solid body but the engine was in boxes. The cost of rebuilding a Porsche 930 turbo engine is scary so I said goodbye.

Mr_Shiftright

Probablyl $25K to go through that engine properly---maybe more.

I suppose someone might be crazy enough to pay more for that beater 911, but one emotional buyer who isn't well-informed doesn't make that the "market". Or perhaps the person just wants a hobby/project and doesn't care if they don't make a dime on it.

My only real concern for taking on a beater like this is that the car doesn't have "good bones". Trying to build a car from a compromised, tortured unibody structure is kinda crazy.

fortee9er

Lets see what you get for $10k or less in Porschelandia, per eBay:
ebay.com/itm/1974-Porsche-911-Coupe-2-Door-/252598284479?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3ad007f0bf:g:SY4AAOSwmLlX~tOL&item=252598284479
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-Porsche-911-/272486914145?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3f717c5861:g:wmsAAOSwn7JYEMwB&item=272486914145
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Porsche-911-Targa-/252629541798?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3ad1e4e3a6:g:mz8AAOSwXeJYFCFO&item=252629541798
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-911-/282210344856?forcerrptr=true&hash=item41b50c1f98:g:iKAAAOSwh2xX-vRD&item=282210344856
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-Porsche-911-Widebody-/291955919506?forcerrptr=true&hash=item43f9edca92:g:~BgAAOSwEzxYO29C&item=291955919506
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1974-Porsche-911-coupe-/112219479260?forcerrptr=true&hash=item1a20cd5cdc:g:x58AAOSwiONYPILr&item=112219479260

Mr_Shiftright

whole lotta junk is apparently what you get. What on earth are people thinking who buy these things?

fortee9er

Dreams of driving a Porsche 911, a dream.

gsemike

Mr_Shiftright said:

whole lotta junk is apparently what you get. What on earth are people thinking who buy these things?

I guess people underestimate what they're getting into and think that it will be a good way to learn. I just had a friend all hot for an 67 Mustang track car with 'typical rust issues' that hadn't been run or driven since the 90s. He just really had no idea the work involved since it looked OK in pictures

Mr_Shiftright

Well just go buy one. Not all 911s are pricey. That pile of rust '74 someone bought for $9,500---you can buy that car as a clean driver for $25K. Crazy...absolutely crazy....

texases

" 67 Mustang track car with 'typical rust issues' "

I saw that one:

gsemike

89 Formula with 287 miles

http://newyork.craigslist.org/jsy/cto/5907034730.html Check out this ad. Tough to know what to make of it. If he had a pace car or GTA, could be looking at a windfall but this looks to be a pretty basic car

gsemike

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well just go buy one. Not all 911s are pricey. That pile of rust '74 someone bought for $9,500---you can buy that car as a clean driver for $25K. Crazy...absolutely crazy....

Agree 100%

explorerx4

@gsemike,
Storing firewood under your car is a great selling point.
One with more miles:
http://newlondon.craigslist.org/ctd/5942747790.html

Mr_Shiftright

gsemike said:

89 Formula with 287 miles

http://newyork.craigslist.org/jsy/cto/5907034730.html Check out this ad. Tough to know what to make of it. If he had a pace car or GTA, could be looking at a windfall but this looks to be a pretty basic car

Possibly if the car could be revived to run perfectly, and was massively detailed to be absolutely flawless, it could bring maybe $17,500, swingin' for the fences and hitting a craigslist grand slam home run. As it sits, as is where is not running, perhaps $12K tops. And of course, a boatload of documentation about the mileage would be in order.

The Formula is a pretty basic model, one step off the plain-jane Firebird of that year, and not particularly rare.

explorerx4

A very strange car.
http://hartford.craigslist.org/cto/5921237240.html

texases

Restomod look with none of the restomod go...???

explorerx4

@texases, Exactly what I'm thinking!

Mr_Shiftright

I'm not seein' anywhere near the money he's asking for this.

uplanderguy

I can remember riding in a friend's parents '62 Tempest four wagon. While I liked the styling, even then I thought the thing ran rough and noisy though. I've read that the aluminum V8 more often seen in the Buicks of the era was installed in only 1-2% of '61-62 Tempests. I like the detail styling of the Tempests better though.

stickguy

I sorta like that Mustang. It is roughly what I would do, but probably not quite so extreme. Basically put upgraded modern suspension and brakes, and engine mods for reliablity (ignition, cooling). But body and interior largely stock.

I just think he went a bit far with the suspension and size of the brakes, but mostly, I hate the wheels. Scale those back, and maybe reverse the drop, and could be a nice package. Oh, of course, put in a nice clutch and 5 speed stick!

one more thing. Needs legit seat belts, and much better seats.

the seats and seat belts are actually one reason if I did this, I would go with something newer to start with (I really like the 70-71 Camaro). More modern and "safe" interior, better seats (and easier to update them without ruining the look).

actually, the car I want to do this with (if I had lots of play money, which I don't!) is a 71 Volvo 142. Wonder if IPD is still in business?

berri

Go with the 62 Valiant/Lancer wagon. It is kind of like the little version of the big 59/60 GM wagons when it comes to pieces of glass

Mr_Shiftright

stickguy said:

I sorta like that Mustang. It is roughly what I would do, but probably not quite so extreme. Basically put upgraded modern suspension and brakes, and engine mods for reliablity (ignition, cooling). But body and interior largely stock.

I just think he went a bit far with the suspension and size of the brakes, but mostly, I hate the wheels. Scale those back, and maybe reverse the drop, and could be a nice package. Oh, of course, put in a nice clutch and 5 speed stick!

one more thing. Needs legit seat belts, and much better seats.

the seats and seat belts are actually one reason if I did this, I would go with something newer to start with (I really like the 70-71 Camaro). More modern and "safe" interior, better seats (and easier to update them without ruining the look).

actually, the car I want to do this with (if I had lots of play money, which I don't!) is a 71 Volvo 142. Wonder if IPD is still in business?

Yep!

https://www.ipdusa.com/

Very tight fit to put a Ford V-8 in a Volvo 142.

stickguy

I wasn't even thinking a V8 (would go with a later car for that). Just hot rod the 2.0 lump a bit! If I really wanted to get radical, retro fit a later 2.3 turbo motor in.

but, stock engine with mods, lowered a bit, suspension upgrades with minilites, interior upgrades (gauges and such) and a chin spoiler. Add a later 5 speed trans too. That should do it.

though a nice tasty 123GT, or a well done clone, could be a hell of a fun car too.

texases

I wouldn't want to live with that Mustang's 2bb v8 and AT. Not much fun in that. I'd at least want a drivetrain that was consistent with the modernized suspension and brakes. 4bbl + 4spd MT, 289 is fine, maybe try out an EFI setup instead of the 4 bbl.

Mr_Shiftright

Seems a shame to build a car like that only to have some little muskrat of a CUV slap you silly at the stoplight.

texases

Mr_Shiftright said:

Seems a shame to build a car like that only to have some little muskrat of a CUV slap you silly at the stoplight.

Exactly. I looked up a test of a '66 Mustang with the 289/AT: 0-60 in 10.6 seconds. Prius territory!

Mr_Shiftright

I think if I built up a classic Mustang and then got beaten by a Prius I would pull over and commit ritual suicide, really.

isellhondas

I have to disagree to a point. I've owned a couple of Mustangs with the 289 2BBL and they certainly weren't slouches. I mean my GTO's and 65 Rivieras were much faster but the Mustangs weren't slowpokes.

Mr_Shiftright

Certainly not 0-30 but they run out of breath pretty fast.