Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

stickguy

Another car at the place by me. Should have stopped Thursday, before this evil winter returned.

stickguy

I like that olds, but need to redo the interior for sure.

fintail

No problem. An engine rebuild would cost the price of a pristine car, assuming the original was tired or kaput. Plenty of these are decaying away never to be driven again. This keeps it on the road. The interior looks bone stock save for the iffy head unit, and the exterior style is kind of 80s tuner to me, just needs a spoiler.

qbrozen said:

close your eyes, fintail.

texases

My problem with the SL? The crazy small air cleaner with the Chevy bow tie perched on top. Just looks wrong:

Mr_Shiftright

qbrozen said:

close your eyes, fintail.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-Mercedes-Benz-SL-Class-Convertible-/192119441632?hash=item2cbb3608e0:g:k5sAAOSwImRYk~4y&vxp=mtr

You know, that's one of the few Mercedes that I don't mind seeing hacked-up.

You'd really have to drive it to determine if you got yourself an improved SL or conversely, a Franken-Benz. Things like engine driveline and exhaust vibration, does the heater still work, do we still have power steering, can the differential handle the power, etc.

I dunno, -----crude firewall cutting, kinked hoses, funky wiring, no speedo, no tach, console chipped, dash crack, funky weatherstripping, ---it gives one pause. You get what you pay for, I guess. "Show" car? I don't think so

ab348

qbrozen said:

What is it you take exception to? The fact that they used the word "restored"? They also give a list of incorrect parts in their description. Looks like a nice car. Am I missing something?

Well, it has a '70 front clip, an '80s steering wheel, an interior from god knows where (even though entire interiors are available out of a catalog). seats from somewhere but certainly not any GM A-body, and who knows what else. Is it a '70 with a '71 rear bumper? Or is it really a '71 with a '70 front end? Who knows? That is a lot of things but it certainly not a "restoration".

qbrozen

ab348 said:

What is it you take exception to? The fact that they used the word "restored"? They also give a list of incorrect parts in their description. Looks like a nice car. Am I missing something?

Well, it has a '70 front clip, an '80s steering wheel, an interior from god knows where (even though entire interiors are available out of a catalog). seats from somewhere but certainly not any GM A-body, and who knows what else. Is it a '70 with a '71 rear bumper? Or is it really a '71 with a '70 front end? Who knows? That is a lot of things but it certainly not a "restoration".

Ok, so I think running away from a place because they use a word the same way I see it being used by 95% of the car selling population is a bit extreme. Just my opinion.

The only phrase that I think might be more often incorrectly used in the old car game is "rebuilt engine." Pretty rarely does said "rebuild" actually involve touching the bottom end.

fintail

Built to be a show car, but never said it was completed

Also, Brooklyn. I suspect used car buying there is a roll of the dice.

Mr_Shiftright said:

<
I dunno, -----crude firewall cutting, kinked hoses, funky wiring, no speedo, no tach, console chipped, dash crack, funky weatherstripping, ---it gives one pause. You get what you pay for, I guess. "Show" car? I don't think so

ab348

qbrozen said:

Ok, so I think running away from a place because they use a word the same way I see it being used by 95% of the car selling population is a bit extreme. Just my opinion.

Nobody I know in the old-car hobby would call that thing "restored". What did they restore? The '70 front end? The '71 rear? The seats from parts unknown? That thing is a total Frankenstein. It sure as heck isn't "restored" and for the dealer to claim so and not be up-front about what it is, is very skeezy in my not-so-extreme opinion. Imagine some guy who came into some cash and doesn't know much about these cars, but always wanted a Cutlass, and forking out $20K for that thing. He takes it to his local cruise-in and is crushed when Olds people see it and tell him he bought a pig in a poke. The dealer might need to hire bodyguards.

qbrozen

ab348 said:

qbrozen said:

Ok, so I think running away from a place because they use a word the same way I see it being used by 95% of the car selling population is a bit extreme. Just my opinion.

Nobody I know in the old-car hobby would call that thing "restored". What did they restore? The '70 front end? The '71 rear? The seats from parts unknown? That thing is a total Frankenstein. It sure as heck isn't "restored" and for the dealer to claim so and not be up-front about what it is, is very skeezy in my not-so-extreme opinion. Imagine some guy who came into some cash and doesn't know much about these cars, but always wanted a Cutlass, and forking out $20K for that thing. He takes it to his local cruise-in and is crushed when Olds people see it and tell him he bought a pig in a poke. The dealer might need to hire bodyguards.

Let me ask this: what word should a seller use to describe a car that they have ... brought back from the dead with new/replacement parts without making it the same as it came from the factory? Because I have often found myself trying to think of what they should call vehicles like that, which are quite common. As I said, I very very often see that being called "restored," although that is definitely not the correct use of the word. Technically no word with the "re" prefix is correct. However, restomod is an accepted term, although part of it comes from "restoration" and such a vehicle, by definition, is not to factory specs.

Just a side note, but if someone always wanted such a car, they should know what it should look like. Personally, its nothing I have ever paid attention to.

ab348

qbrozen said:

Just a side note, but if someone always wanted such a car, they should know what it should look like. Personally, its nothing I have ever paid attention to.

Over on the Olds Club of America FB page, we get comments every week from new people who want to know things like why the Chevy 350 rebuild kit they just bought doesn't have anything in it that fits their Olds engine. Lots of non-expert folks buy cars without knowing much about them. Buying from a classic car dealer might be one way they think they are getting some kind of assurance of getting the real thing.

berri

I believe this is the era Cutlass that pushed it ahead of Impala/Caprice in sales?

stickguy

maybe rebuilt instead of restored? But I can live with restored, not implying a graveyard cars style As OEM restore.

xwesx

stickguy said:

maybe rebuilt instead of restored? But I can live with restored, not implying a graveyard cars style As OEM restore.

I would agree with rebuilt vs. restored. Restored implies that they took a car and brought it back to its original condition (or, in many cases, better), while rebuilt implies that they took a bunch of pieces and made a car out of it.

At the end of the day, you have to call it something (for example, I call my Econoline a '69, even though its entire drive train and many other parts are from my dad's '71), but the owner should have no illusions about what it is (and what it is not).

qbrozen

I would say built implies you took a bunch of pieces and made a car. Rebuilt is, by definition, "building it again." Since we're talking about something that did not exist in that form before, rebuilt is also technically incorrect.

xwesx

qbrozen said:

I would say built implies you took a bunch of pieces and made a car. Rebuilt is, by definition, "building it again." Since we're talking about something that did not exist in that form before, rebuilt is also technically incorrect.

Naw, rebuilt works. You have a VIN, and a car that is the basis of the build, so throwing a bunch of parts at it and getting it back on the road is rebuilding it. Anything that you build again is different than it was the first time around. When restoring something, the point is that is it isn't substantially different than it was the first time around.

People do use "restored" loosely, though. For example, I wouldn't call any car with substantial alterations, such as drivetrain or suspension, a restoration even if the body and/or interior remained largely as original. Maybe the term modernization or resto-mod is a better fit in that situation.

Again, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you call it as long as the owner (or potential owner) is fully informed of what they have. If you can own the car and enjoy it with all its imperfections and flaws, then all is well.

qbrozen

completely agree and sort of my original point. I don't much care what term someone wants to use or misuse. it is the details that matter.

ab348

A Frankenstein can never be called "restored". Unless you re-Frankenstein it.

Mr_Shiftright

The classic car business is fast and loose, that's for sure.

One term I've seen used quite a bit is "sympathetic restoration" or "cosmetic restoration". This pretty clearly implies that this "restoration" is not "nut and bolt". Another decent term is "driver quality".

"Older restoration" also implies that things have gone off a bit since the car's glory days.

Probably the most abused term used these days is "original"-----oh, except that it's been repainted, re-upholstered and has a different engine----WHA???

Amore honest and usual expression would be "high degree of originality" or "80% original"--something that implies deviation from the factory materials.

"restored and upgraded" tells you right away that the vehicle is not OEM, so that's pretty fair.

Short Answer: Private sellers can be just as righteous, or just as devious and slimey, as any classic car dealer.

qbrozen

https://www.mecum.com/lots/KM0317-278174/1970-plymouth-duster/

Opinions/comments on that one? Of course, a VIN would be nice to confirm originality. But, we're talking about a car that will probably only fetch in the mid $ teens at best.

stickguy

I like it. Mostly. Not sure about the aftermarket dash stuff. And would like rally wheels. And bucket seats. But I could work with this.

texases

Hmmm...manual brakes and steering. Not fun on my slant 6 Duster, less fun on this one, I'd think. 

stickguy

I had the same duster setup. I remember once hitting a big puddle in a parking lot, then blowing right through a stop sign onto a main road. BecZme a big fan of disk brakes that day.

Manual steering, that I actually liked!

Mr_Shiftright

It's workable---take a chain saw to that hood scoop, repaint the hood, get rid of that radio, add power steering and have a look at the car's stance---not sure but it seems off.

qbrozen

I actually don't mind the hood on this one. I've definitely seen worse. PS, PB, and AC would be nice additions I'd like to do. They do scoot, I know that. I like the color.

What do you think, Shifty? $13K as a good buy? Of course, there'd be the buyer's premium and shipping to take into consideration. Hmmm...

Mr_Shiftright

I'd say fair market retail for a car in "good" but not "show" condition is in the $15K arena. So if the car runs out well, you could always bail out and get your money back. The lack of P/S is a value affect, however. On this model, I'd also do a close inspection of the front frame rails, which are known to crack. Lack of P/S might make this more likely.

texases

Also check in the trunk around the taillights for rust, it was pretty common.

qbrozen

Of all that I am looking at for this upcoming KC auction, I think that Duster or the '62 Tbird would be the affordable cars I might consider. Completely different cars with different purposes, of course. If I knew I could get the Tbird to perform, I might like the comfort of that car more. And it already has the niceties like PS, PB, and AC. But, at 2 tons, it probably needs a good 100hp or more boost to make it keep up with modern econoboxes.

Mr_Shiftright

They are slugs, and gas hogs, but very nice straight line cruisers.

ab348

Mr_Shiftright said:

They are slugs, and gas hogs, but very nice straight line cruisers.

Yeah, those 2 cars are almost diametrically opposed to each other. The Duster would be fun going from stoplight to stoplight and doing burnouts with, but not a car you'd want to drive much otherwise with the lack of power assists and the general tin-can ambiance of them. I also note modern velour seat upholstery which would drive me nuts but maybe others would welcome. The T-Bird is, as Shifty says, a wonderful cruiser with the windows down and your elbow on the sill as you trundle along looking cool, but don't be looking to do any hi-jinks in it.

The T-Bird is also a much more complex car with all of its power assists and the like, and those over half-a-century electric things can be painful or expensive to deal with.

ab348

This would be a fun car but I hate to think what the winning bid would be:

1972 Dodge Challenger w/340

stickguy

now that challenger looks like something that would be perfect for QB. Much more functional than a he-man Duster or ancient T-Bird.

This one looks really nice. Makes me think of Mr. Brady though!

qbrozen

That's gorgeous. I definitely have my eye on Challengers and GTOs, but they are WAAAY more expensive than these other vehicles.

I just now noticed that Tbird has a cracked dash. dangit. Not the end of the world, of course, but it would annoy me. Anybody know how to replace one? haha.

texases

qbrozen said:

I just now noticed that Tbird has a cracked dash. dangit. Not the end of the world, of course, but it would annoy me. Anybody know how to replace one? haha.

Just get one of these:

xwesx

I'm not sure if all were done the same back in the day, but the dash pads on my old trucks are held on with studs through the metal dash, and those studs are secured with either nuts or these little flat pieces of metal that are press-fit.

The hard part is actually getting to them (has to be done from the inside of the dash).

xwesx

Oh, man. That Challenger brings back memories.

My mom had one of those for a while, in my earliest memories, though I'm sure it was just a base-level beater. I recall it was sort of this yellowish tan color; maybe "baby poop brown" or some such. I think it may have had a dark vinyl top, if that was an option.

That was the car I was in as a tot when I learned the value of the seat belt. We were in a bank parking lot, parked, and I was in the back seat, driver side. A pickup backed into the rear driver's quarter, and the impact (very slow) literally threw me into the back of my mom's seat. I got into the seat, put on the lap belt, and have used my seat belt every since. LOL

stickguy

just browsing CL (old school baby!). Some interesting stuff in that price range.

This one looks fun, since you can do interior, assuming body doesn't have rust.

https://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/6041756517.html

I really love this style. Though not quite sure about this one, it is cheap enough. And very bright!

https://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/6034460749.html

If you want a cruising barge, this one is big enough. Plus it is a Hurst! Oh wait, sneaky. picture is "not actual car" so it must be a rat. But still, kinda cool and must be very rare.

https://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/6021636936.html

this is really cool. Would love it done. But too much rust. Going to be in for a fortune since you have to pull it all apart and do from scratch. No clue what this is worth all restored.

https://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/6014169752.html

not sure what to say about this, but well under budget, and seems in good shape.

https://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/6030365176.html

cheaper suicide Bird

https://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/6019827289.html

Oddball right in your back yard! Time it with a sundial.

https://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/6010943902.html

and finally, interesting looking Goat clone. and the top goes down!

https://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/5995728121.html

explorerx4

That Cougar. Marty report, must be a like a CarFox report.
The real thing is a Marti report.

stickguy

I would have to retire and go without sleep to even get a start on proofing the spelling on CL posts. I'm happy if I can just figure out what they are trying to say!

qbrozen

The Jackson Falcon has Virginia plates. Interesting. Could be a good candidate for a motor swap, but you'd have to do it on the cheap or be buried in it. Nothing else on that list is of interest to me.

stickguy

was mostly picking at the price point to see what was out there.

That Falcon would get pricey, unless you had access to a cheap motor and arts, and time to get dirty doing it all yourself.

qbrozen

Gotta admit it is unique:
http://jerseyshore.craigslist.org/cto/6002597516.html

The orange stripe and painted bumpers kinda kill it for me:
http://allentown.craigslist.org/cto/6008325409.html

stickguy

Hard enough finding a normal used car. Getting into the "classics" world is much worse. So much dreck to sift through!

texases

That Torino wagon would be much more interesting without those $2,000 wheels. Wonder what 'small stuff' is left to do on that Barracuda? Cleanest engine compartment I've seen in a long time!

xwesx

texases said:

That Torino wagon would be much more interesting without those $2,000 wheels. Wonder what 'small stuff' is left to do on that Barracuda? Cleanest engine compartment I've seen in a long time!

Agreed about the Torino wheels. Otherwise, I really like it.

Funny that you mentioned the engine compartment on the 'cuda; it is such an extreme contrast to the photo of the wagon's engine!

Mr_Shiftright

I'd offer about $12,5K on this one:

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/oldsmobile/98/1707611.html?refer=blog

I'd call it a "driver quality" car.

uplanderguy

That car looks nice, but I can't stand a nice, authentic-looking car outside with a bland reupholstery job inside.

berri

I like Olds, but for the price of a 98 I'd probably go Buick Electra or Chrysler

ab348

Look at the size of the rear quarter panels on that 98! The stamping plant must have had fun punching out those.

I agree on the upholstery. That is always a major turn-off for me, especially when doing it right wouldn't cost all that much more. It should have seats stitched in this pattern:

explorerx4

That armrest looks like it's the size of an ottoman!