Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

andre1969

touch this '77 Cutlass Supreme with a 10-foot pole, especially considering the engine that's in it, but the ad copy is pretty amusing. I love the reasoning as to why this car is better with the V-6 than with a V-8!

british_rover

That is pretty funny.

Has anyone checked out his stlouischicks???

lemmer

Since I am at work, I stopped at the 18 and over warning. If it is as funny as his car ad, it might be worthing looking at when I get home.

Mr_Shiftright

I like the paint job...looks like it was painted with a broom!

fintail

I wonder how many of those dash lights stay lit up when the car is being driven

Nice looking battleship

Might be a nice driver candidate

andre1969

is a good looking car. I always liked the '65-67 style.

fintail

I swear, all these things survived

andre1969

Even though I can be a Mopar hugger, I never really cared for the '67-68 Imperial. I think partly because they signaled the first death rattle for the marque. The '66 Imperial, while outdated (basically a 1957 without fins and given a conservative Ford-esque makeover) was at least unique. The '67-68 just seems like a guzzied up New Yorker, though. And not terribly attractive.

The '69-73 were really just the same thing...New Yorkers with a few extra inches of wheelbase, but at least they looked different, with those sleek front ends with the hidden headlights that made them look a bit futuristic. And even the '74-75, I thought was a nice looking car, although it was just a New Yorker with hidden headlights, and basically BECAME the New Yorker for '76-78.

ghulet

....essentially just slightly re-styled '64-66s? I mean, same chassis, running gear, and similar, if less radical, exterior lines and interiors? Weren't all styled by (what's his name again?) the guy who did the '61 Lincoln Continental (sort of the anti-Exner)?

andre1969

the '67-68 was the first of the unibodied Imperials. They were on a modified version of the '65-68 "C-body" (Fury, Polara/Monaco, Newport/300/New Yorker). I think the wheelbase was 129", but not positive. I think they were still called the "D-body", though.

The '57-66 Imperial were essentially all the same basic car, although it got a heavy facelift in 1960 that also modified the roofline. They were able to square off the roof a bit over the years to make it appear more modern, and also squared off the sheetmetal, but one thing they never could hide was the wraparound windshield and associated A-pillars.

That guy who did the '61 Lincoln was Elwood Engle. He started fixing up Exner's work with the '63 Dart and Valiant, and the '63 Chryslers. He may have also been responsible for de-finning the Imperial for '62.

lemko

...that Virgil Exner and Elwood Engel had radically different personalities as well as design philosophies. Virgil Exner was a sophisticated gentleman and Elwood Engle came across more like Tony Soprano.

lemmer

Never got to see the Corvette. The guy stopped returning calls from my friend and another acquaintance (the high bidder) about two days before the auction ended. The high bidder told the seller to name his price, and the seller would not give him an answer. Sometimes I just can't figure out what is going on with some of these eBay auctions.

Mr_Shiftright

Who knows with these guys? The high bid was fair enough for a car "on the blind". Perhaps the thing to do is find out what the guy wants, send a small deposit (refundable) and fly out and eithr accept or reject the car without further bargaining.

No way I'd pay for "low miles" without seeing the car and the verifications for this claim. I've seen too many old Vettes with butcher bodywork, wrong engines, you name it. Along with Harleys and Camaros and Ferraris, the skullduggery seems to follow Vette sales like a dark cloud.

fintail

Another battleship survivor

What does this guy think he has?

"Wide body"

andre1969

that '69 Olds Delta 88; reminds me of the '69 Bonneville I used to have. The paint color looks close, too, although my Bonneville's interior had more of a greenish tint to it, and seemed to blend in a bit better with the exterior.

It's interesting how GM used to play around with the wheelbases on those cars. In 1969, I know the Chevies were 119", while the Pontiac Catalina was 122" and the Bonneville was 125" I think the Delta was 124". Well, on the Bonneville, you could see where the extra 3" was added; that little space between the rear wheel opening and the rear door was about 3" bigger, although the doors themselves and the greenhouse were all the same.

With that Delta though, that little space looks smaller than it did on my Bonneville. So I guess that the Oldsmobile added their extra wheelbase up front, ahead of the cowl? The front clip of the Delta does look longer overall than the front clip of my Bonneville did.

au1994

need a LOT more details on the T-Bird before anyone would pull the trigger.

How about some details on the rust and electrical gremlins?

I'd guess that the gas tank is rotted.

Interior looks nice, but I don't think there is a lot of $$ in the 4 door Birds. I'm sure Shifty will let us know.

andre1969

the "pre-beaked" 4-door T-birds, but AFAIK there just isn't that much money in that generation, period. I could be wrong, but I think the '64-66 was the last T-bird that seems to command fairly respectable prices, and there it's mainly with the convertible.

I believe this generation of T-bird was also unitized, so rust can be a critical thing.

qbrozen

ok, first of all, automatic and Porsche should never go together. 2nd, what the heck is with the $2.99 Home Depot paint job? Ugh!

andre1969

2nd, what the heck is with the $2.99 Home Depot paint job? Ugh!

Maybe the "Satin Look" is coming back into style? I know back in the 60's it was popular to have a flat-black hood on your muscle car, or wanna-be musclecar, and these days it seems popular for the starchers to do it with their fart-canned Civics and such.

My Dart looked like that when I bought it, wearing a flat-black primer that glistened like it just came off the assembly line when wet, but when dry, just like that Porsche. Somehow it worked on that Dart though, giving it kind of a hulking, menacing look. On a sportscar, it just cries out for restoration! Or to be put out of its misery.

qbrozen

yeah, flat black is in with the import tuner crowd, as far as I know. At least, that's what Kazzer always says on SportsCar Revolution.

But, if you're going to do it, shouldn't you at least do it right? Can't you have a GOOD flat black paint job?

lemmer

A good friend of mine had that same '69 Olds. It sure didn't feel very fast. I think it needed more aggressive gearing or something.

That 944 is a pile, just a parts car or a beater. With the automatic, get used to being dusted by old ladies in 4-cylinder Camrys. A 5-speed 944 isn't exactly fast, but at least a little more fun to drive.

lemmer

My friend is about to give up on finding a nice NOM driver 58-59 Vette in the $35-40K range. They all seem to get snatched up by Proteam and their ilk, buffed and shined, and marked up to $50-60K.

He is thinking of moving on to looking for a mid '60s Vette.

Shifty, if you know where to find a decent 58-59 in that price range, my friend would go just about anywhere to get one.

Mr_Shiftright

California is where you find 'em. I see them now and then. Just saw one last month offered at $43,500. NOM, nice driver.

For $60K you should be buying a REALLY nice totally correct 50s Vette. Also remember, the type of equipment on the car can make a BIG difference in price, as can the provenance of the car. People always forget to add on for the power pak, for the hardtop and for California history of ownership---those three things alone can make Car A, which is otherwise identical to Car B, worth $10K--$15K ++ more. And condition, condition, condition. If Proteam goes through the trouble of monstrous engine and chassis detailing, and replacing the hard to find broken bits,(like that windshield surround) and offers a guarantee and financing, well of course they have a "valued added" price on the car.

I inspect eBay cars every so often, and the amount of laziness and misrepresentation is staggering. At least the dealers I go to give accurate advertising and they take the time to spiff the car up right. No reputable dealer is going to sell a totally bogus or butchered Vette, but private parties sure will.

andre1969

would a '69 Delta 88 with a 455 have? Did GM ever put 2-bbl carbs on those big engines such as the 454 and various 455's, or were they all 4-bbl? I know that a 2-bbl was pretty common on engines around the 400 CID range.

lemmer

The carb was a Rochester on my friend's '69 Delta 88. I almost want to say it was 2-bbl, but I don't remember for sure.

Mr_Shiftright

The 4-door Birds have some value if they are really really nice and no value if they aren't. There's not much in-between in their price structure.

It would be hard to put a price on this rat. It's basically up for grabs as someone's "hobby car" to mess around with....so....what? maybe $750 bucks? $1,000??? if you can hear it run and drive it before you buy?

Best thing on these is just go buy a nice one for $5,000 and be done with it.

lemmer

Enough with the nice old Corvettes. Here is a '62 project car to peruse.

fintail

Most of these are long gone now (not saying that's a horrible thing)

ghulet

...apparently have a dizzying array of engines. The largest Buicks were still using the 430, Pontiacs the 428, but Olds had already moved to the 455. The biggest Chevy engine was the 427. By '70, though, everyone had gone to the 455 (454 in Chevy's case).

According to a book I own, which is alternately sloppy and/or inaccurate at times, list the base engine for the 'base' Delta 88 as a 350 four-barrel with 250hp; its stats, though, are exactly the same as the base engine for the Cutlass Supreme, which is listed as having a two-barrel, though with the same compression ratio and horsepower as the four-barrel. So something's wrong. Interesting to note is that the ONLY 455s listed with two-barrel carbs throughout the GM line are the '68 Delta 88 (the Delmont had a 350), the '69 Delta 88 Custom (non-Custom being base) and all '70 Delta 88s, all with 310hp. Not bad, considering my '71 four-barrel 455 Electra 225 had 315hp.

ghulet

...The Buick if you can afford gas, and the Mazda if you can afford whatever it might need next (likely a transmission, shocking in this era Mazda):

http://chicago.craigslist.org/car/162309755.html

http://chicago.craigslist.org/car/162336014.html

andre1969

Ghulet, which book do you use for your statistics? I have a few of those auto encyclopedias that Consumer Guide puts out, but have found them to have an occasional error here and there.

I was going to look it up tonite, but now I can't find the danged book!

andre1969

use a Ford tranny or a Mazda one? I know that the Mazda MX-6, 626, and Ford Probe, when equipped with an automatic, had a Ford unit (or a Ford/Mazda collaboration) and were notorious for failing.

ghulet

...is 'Standard Catalog of American Cars 1946-75', published by Old Cars Publications/Krause Publishing, Copyright--get this--1982 (I think newer editions, extending past 1975, exist now). It's a handy guide, but as with any book attempting to be this exhaustive, it's rife with typos and errors, especially as the auto makers kept notoriously incomplete and inaccurate records. Info about options availability, production and pricing can be especially sketchy, IMO (e.g., how many of this one were built with this engine or that transmission, etc.). Actual model production figures, at least when available, seem pretty accurate, though.

ghulet

I don't know who made the Millenia's transmission, actually. I know the automatics put in four-cylinder Mazda models you mentioned were particularly bad, but I haven't heard the same about those on V6 models. Of course, if they were the same as those on Winstars and Taurus/Sables, they're notoriously failure-prone, too. Still, for $1400, you could do worse than a decent-looking Millenia that may or may not have a bad trans; then again, I can think of more reliable, less expensive cars to fix in that price range, too--just nothing quite a snazzy. Of all '90s Mazdas, I still like Proteges the best, though.

andre1969

from the 90's is the 929. I thought that sucker was downright sexy!

andre1969

Now that I think about it, I do have an American Standard catalog stashed somewhere, but just for Chrysler. I've noticed a few inconsistencies in it, too.

For example, I remember looking up my 1979 New Yorker, and the American Standard book said the base price was about $8500 IIRC. But my Consumer Guide says it was about $10,500. Both of them do list the 5th Avenue package at a $1500 option, though.

Still, $8500 seems like an awfully cheap base price for something like this back then. The American Standard book listed air conditioning as being an option though, so maybe the Consumer Guide encyclopedia just listed the price with a bunch of options added in?

My grandparents' '75 Dart Swinger was about $5,000, so I'd think that a more prestigious, larger, loaded car, plus 4 years of 70's style inflation, would drive the base price of a NYer up by more than $3500 above it.

qbrozen

correct. The 2.5 V6 did NOT come with the dreaded Ford automatic. I haven't heard of any widespread problems with the V6 tranny.

I can't really say for sure its a Mazda tranny, though, as its most likely some 3rd party supplier.

stevedebi

Not a collectible, but I had the 4 door '79 Fairmont, and that 302 is a good solid engine.

Mr_Shiftright

Weak link in the 302 was a timing chain that could stretch. Easily checked by removing the fuel pump and pushing in on the chain to check for excessive slack. If you buy a 302 that feels real doggy, that's where you look first.

fintail

Priced about $1000 too high...what the hell?

This old beast is back...knock the price down a little and get a classy old yacht

andre1969

or does that lady standing out by her Imperial look kinda like Edith Bunker? Nice looking car, though. IMO, there was always something about the '64-66 style of Imperial that, even though it seemed outdated a bit compared to a Caddy or Lincoln, it still had an expensive, classy look to it.

I dunno if this is true or not, but I've heard that the 2- and 4-door hardtops used the same roofline.

As for that old '48 Dodge, I guess if nothing else, it does look like there's a lot of salvageable parts there. For the most part though, those old cars from that era don't excite me that much. A 1953 DeSoto is probably about as far back as I'd go, and that's probably more nostalgia than anything else, as my Granddad had picked one up when I was a little kid, and then got rid of it just before I got my learner's permit. I actually know where it is, but it's been sitting in the same spot now for about 20 years, at the edge of a clearing. And the electrical system got fried when the guy tried to jump it with a 12 volt system.

andre1969

the last time I saw one of these! Umm, not that it was a pivotal moment in my life or anything.

andre1969

I always wondered what became of my old Malibu! :surprise: If it weren't for the fact that this one's a Classic (well, and mine ended up getting a 1981 grille after I wrecked it) I'd swear that was my old car!

lemmer

Isn't $25K a bit high for a a Malibu?

In case someone out there isn't completely sick of me and my Porsches, I test drove this 944 last night.

The seats are in good shape, the carpets are completely crunchy and threadbare. The uncracked dash was in the back of the car, and is not included in the new lower price of $6200. The dash in use is trashed. The 'good' original paint was faded badly on the bumpers and was sullied with some kind of contaminant on one front fender. The sunroof did have a few scratches, in fact it looked like someone dropped a cinder block on the painted side of the sunroof and dragged it back and forth while pushing down with all of their force. The wheels were badly faded and in need of a refinish. It had Pep Boys quality level tires. It reeked of raw fuel when the hood was opened. It did drive pretty well. The guy had the power steering rack replaced with a manual one, but left all of the associated hardware and tanks partially attached. The guy also went through all the trouble and expense of replacing the timing belt without replacing the weak water pump common to the 944.

I didn't make an offer on it.

british_rover

Priced about 800 dollars to high :P

Ugh green color.

Questionable 928???

Another scary Audi

50 bucks for four trucks

au1994

Man, the 928 was a nice looking car.

I'm afraid these fall into the "run away, run far away" category though.

Mr_Shiftright

Porsche 928 -- priced a bit high but really not too far off the mark. You gotta have two components thoroughly checked by a pro, though---the clutch and the water pump. If you have to eat either of those, you're doomed. If both check out and the car runs great, the sunroof isn't much to deal with and a dent is just a dent---sorta kinda, as the doors are aluminum. I'd say $3,500 is fair market for it. If the clutch is bad, try $1,500. If the clutch and water pump are bad, try FREE.

Porsche 944 -- yet another 944 beater. Seems that the ratio of beaters to good (the 944 BTG ratio) is about 15 to 1 these days.

Audi 4000S Quattro -- I politely disagree. Possibly a good buy on a 4-wheel drive car that was really better than the dreaded 5000. You couldn't get a beater Cherokee for that much less a decent looking one.

ghulet

Convertibles 'do' command a premium here in Chicago come May/June, but somehow I think not this one:

http://chicago.craigslist.org/car/162620665.html

Anyone want to remind this guy that a NICE one of these is only about twice his price? Nothing a little engine work and a new interior couldn't fix, though. :P At least the body looks OK, in the picture, anyway.

Oh, and judging by the small front bumpers and the fender-mounted side marker lights, this one is gray market, too. Be afraid.

lemmer

as a decent 1975 911S?

Mr_Shiftright

tricky...might be okay, might not. Here's another car that needs to be gone over by a real pro, to see if it is developing any of the classic 2.7 liter ills. Remember, if the studs pull on the engine cases, it's rebuild time, and that will cost more than you paid for the car.

But 911s of all stripes are going up fast. Some buyers will be pleased, some will have a very bad day.