To Fix Up or Trade Up, That is the Question

jipster

It was great fun but there was no ammunition

Well, of course. Without any ammunition, the marketabillity of the things go waaaaaayyyy down.

Mr_Shiftright

Tell me about it. 3 gallons to the mile, too. You can knock down trees real easy though, so that was some consolation. I have been around them when they fire, and they are freakin' LOUD. War movie soundtracks don't do it justice.

I would certainly run a CARFAX on any used tank. You just don't know where they've been.

fezo

I remember being in a tank when I was kid. This would have been very late 50s or early 60s. The one thing I could say for it was that it was certainly claustrophobic. Are they still that cramped? I would guess so.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't know about the new ones. Generally army vehicles do not cater to human comfort. I certainly would want no part of one during a war on a modern battlefield. It's getting dangerous out there.

People buy up old ones and rent them to movies, I guess. Some big businesses like that down in L.A.

fezo

The thing that struck me about the tank at the time and has stayed with me is that I was somewhere say about 7 - 9 years old. I felt cramped. I can't imagine a full grown man in there.

I have no idea if they still do this kind of thing but they used to open up the local military base on Armed Forces Day and show off what they had. Certainly convinced me this wasn't where I was heading....

Mr_Shiftright

Speaking of "fix up or trade in", There was this truck called a Tank Retriever. You picked up broken tanks and took 'em back for repair. This was a BIG truck, much larger than the 5000 gallon tanker I used to drive.

oldfarmer50

"...You might find a '57 Chevy but it will have a Russian engine in it, a radiator from a tractor, carved painted wood for trim and 25 sheet metal patches in the floor..."

So, I've driven worse.

Mr_Shiftright

Well then, you're one of the few, the brave, the chosen! Good for you.

rockshocka1

The M1A1, & every other track vehicle I've crawled around in considerably, are very cramped. I don't know if they offer more room than previous generations, but if they do, I would not want to try getting in one of the old ones.

However, the Army has added comfort touches to non-track vehicles. Over the last few years they've gone automatic, deciding it was too hard to teach the troops how to use a manual. Air conditioned cabins & cup holders! It's very entertaining to see new models when they roll in & what features have been added.

Mr_Shiftright

Automatic duece and a half trucks go way way back. They make great farm trucks.

maryh3

Car photos at:

http://www.carspace.com/maryh3/Albums/maryh3%27s%20Album/DC00004.jpg/page/photo.- html#pic

http://www.carspace.com/maryh3/Albums/maryh3%27s%20Album/DC00003.jpg/page/photo.- html#pic

http://www.carspace.com/maryh3/Albums/maryh3%27s%20Album/DC00005.jpg/page/photo.- html#pic

Mr_Shiftright

Lots like more than $1000 bucks to me. Looks like the hood is sprung, radiator top brace torn up, and receptacles for headlight and parking light torn up. Not sure if the fender has been driven back a bit. I guess you could cobble it up for $1000 but it's not going to look very good. There will be all kinds of alignment issues for the headlight.. and of course when you open the hood you're going to see the damage. I'd say $3000 was an accurate estimate.

maryh3

Though you are taxing my memory the 1989 SHO had a recall on the clutch. I'm almost embarrassed to tell you how I remember but, here goes. We received a recall for 'premature clutch wearout" which was good for a certain period of time and below 80,000 mi (I think) SHO's which replaced the clutch for free. However the car needed to display sign of clutch wear. We had about 70,000 on ours but it was doing just fine no slipping, no softness or hardness etc.

Once you receive information like that you realize that it is probably just a matter of time before your clutch starts to wear, and you don't want to lose the recall replacement clutch. So we started to try to wear out the clutch. We shifted stupidly, let it out fast, drove with the clutch slightly depressed but we just couldn't seem to have any effect. Finally as the recall was close to expiring somebody told us to drive the nose of the car upto a solid brick building so it can't go anywhere, then push the accelerator and let out the clutch. Well that one did it. Got a new clutch under the recall.

Other than that the 89 gave us no trouble. We traded it in because we had kids and stick shifts with babies and toddlers are a nuisance.

Haven't experienced torque oversteer with the 95 SHO, don't remember with the 89. Had an 88(?) Ford Probe Turbo that was almost dangerous with the oversteer so I do know what it is.

sky23213

3 gallons to the mile, too

Actually, that's good. According to the tank guys when I served, their T-72s were at 318 liters per 100km (that's how mileage is represented in Europe). Converted that's 0.75 mph!
They are tight by default, but I think an old T-34 felt a little more spacious than the T-72. They had a crew of 4, I think, so it had to accommodate 3 in the turret (same as T-55). The 72s had a crew of 3 (only 2 in the turret) - they dropped the Loader (aka the Slave of the Tank ).
But, man, that thing could go!

fezo

Never expected to be in this topic as more than a spectator but here goes.

The 00 Accord at 170K or so need at very least a new compressor for the AC. Now they tell me that once the compressor is in that two other parts could be needed but they won't know until they do the compressor. (One part was a dryer; I can't remember the other). If it's all three we are talking $900.

BTW, it also needed a wiper motor but I have to do that as it's pouring as we speak. $200. The good news is all this rain has been keeping it cool enough that I may be able to buy an extra several months on the AC....

So what do you think? Sink the $900 into it? It still runs just fine and is a good year away from the next timing belt....

qbrozen

$1100 for an '00 Accord? Sure.

euphonium

$1100 invested into a known vehicle makes more sense than the $3,000 PLUS depreciation you would take on a replacement as soon as you cross the curb.

fezo

Yeah, I was heading that way anyway. Really there isn't anything else wrong with the thing and it still drives great. I gave the mechanic the green light.

Should have taken it to q's house....

explorerx4

i can't believe i missed such a great SHO discussion for all these months.
i had an 89, 92 and 96. actually, my wife had the 96.
i gave up after the 92, which i name 'heroin'. :surprise:

qbrozen

hey, no problem on the wiper motor, but I can't help ya with the AC.

fezo

If the wiper motor had the decency to conk out when it wasn't raining I'd have been all set.....

All will be back together tomorrow. This is the first time I've ever seriously thought about punting on this car and obviously that didn't last long....

Started window shopping online - Subies, Jetta TDI wagons, Mazda 6....

srs_49

I agree about just sinking the $1100 into it. That's only 3 months worth of new car payments. Anything after that and you're ahead of the game.

BTW, do you really need the AC? What part of the country are you in? What's your commute like?

fezo

I'm over at the Jersey shore. My wife uses the car for work and she travels around a bit as part of that. This year the weather was mild enough up through now to get away without it but we pretty much need it.

The other side of the argument is that with new car payments comes a new car and some nice no repair time but truth be told we'd have bought slightly used anyway. Keeping what we have is the right move.

May try to increase my car loan to myself payments. Right now there's enough aside for a decent down payment. Would love come actual car buying time to just have the cash.

euphonium

While vacationing last August in Colorado I dropped $1400 into our '95 TB, 4.6L.
Replacing the heater core is NOT cheap and while there had two new front rotors installed, turned the rear two, & installed new pads. Not knowing who in Boulder to take it to for doing the work, we decided on Midas because there is an excellent Midas franchise back home that would excercise the guaranty if need be. None needed.

Since spending the $$$ amost a year ago, the maintenence cost has been Zero.

We too have a car replacement account enabling to never make any "car payment" in 55 years of marriage.

fezo

You were smarter than I was in that the account is a relatively new thing and I'm no spring chicken.

Never too old to start a good habit.

Still waiting on the news of how bad a wallet hit I'll take. Somehow every time there's a potential have three thing go instead of one I find it....

hpmctorque

Background: This car has 127,000 miles on it, and has been carefully maintained and sensibly driven (the fact that the clutch is original supports how it was driven). For those of you who know the 3-Series from this vintage, it has the 2.7 "eta" 6 cylinder engine. The body is in excellent condition, although the black paint is showing signs of age. The interior is in perfect condition. The car drives like a BMW, albeit like an older one. That means it drives and handles well, but isn't fast.

Problem: The cars needs ~$2,500 for repairs (parts, labor and tax), and scheduled maintenance, for the following...

One front wheel bearing

A new power window regulator for the right window [it's a 2-door]

There's a leak in the A/C that needs to be located and repaired

In addition, it needs fuel injection service, to remedy a cold start engine stumble, a valve adjustment, replace oil in the transmission and differential, a cooling system flush, an oil change, plus new rear tires.

I estimate the car's sale-by-owner market value would be ~$3,500 if these things were done. I like the car, but I could sell it if it doesn't make economic sense to invest the money needed for the repairs and maintenance items listed above. This is an extra car that I drive about 5,000 miles per year.

Question: Is it worth investing $2,500 on this car, in the hopes of driving it, say, another 2-3 years? Have you ever had to make a similar decision?

srs_49

I have the very same car you're talking about - an '87 E30. It now has between 190K and 200K miles on it - can't say for sure because the speedometer/odometer have not been working for several years now. I bought the car back in 1999 when it had 125K miles on it for my son who needed a car for college, then inherited it back when he decided he didn't have the time to maintain it. I paid $2500 for it back in 1999 - probably a steal.

The AC on the car hasn't worked for years. Decided I really didn't need it anyway.

It's still on the original clutch so, unless the clutch was really abused (probably hard to tell), you should be good there based on my experience.

I did have the timing belt, water pump, hoses, belts, etc replaced at around the 135,000 mile mark. Also both front lower control arms have been replaced. The front bearing are still original, as far as I know. Struts were replaced around the 80,000 mile mark by the original owner. The car is in my garage for new strut inserts even as I type this. Replaced the steering rack 4 years ago. The electric locks are flaky, and the one on the driver's side door won't work from the lock - broken cam on the back of the lock cylinder that I haven't felt like fixing.

In the 10.5 years I've owned it, I've spent $5,000 for maintenance and repairs, including tires, brake pads/rotors, etc. Over the last 3 or 4 years, I've only put maybe $1000 into it total. Needs a paint job - clear coat is gone.

There's some rust along the rocker panels - right where there's a seam between the front and back panels. You might want to look there for any telltale signs. Other than that, it's rust free, which says a lot given how much road salt is used in this area at any hint of snow.

Like you said - it handles well, or it did before the struts died on me, but is slow as molasses. I planning on keeping it.

kyfdx

The thing is.... if you found another '87 325 for $3500, it still might need $1000-$2000 in work...

Economic sense? Of course not... but, you already own this car.. If you like driving it, put the money into it. After all, you have a car that probably needs $1200/yr in maintenance/minor repair to keep on the road, anyway.. That car was never cheap to own..

If you love to drive it.. keep it.. If that loving feeling is gone, dump it..

qbrozen

It is worth nowhere near $3500. I walked away from a near perfect '88 i with less miles at that price. My wife's vert with 112k that was mechanically perfect was less than that 3 years ago.

Even $2500 for an e would be optimistic if all those things were fixed.

If you can't perform your own repairs on such a car, I say you try to get someone to pony up $1k for it now and get out while you can.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm with gbrozen --- punch out. Repairs rarely go the way we plan and various noises can end up being much worse than we think. Sell it as a fixer upper and look for something that's ready to roll. These cars aren't worth very much even when perfect.

In fact, given the cosmetic condition of the paint, if you fix it all up, it's probably worth no more than it is as it sits there right now.

If you were doing all or most repairs yourself I might say something different. But all I see here is a blank check for Hans and Dieter.

hpmctorque

Thanks for your replies and suggestions srs_49, kyfdx, qbrozen and shifty. I value the opinions of each of you.

Well, your suggestions seem to be evenly split, with srs_49 and kyfdx leaning towards me keeping my E30, with qualifications, and qbrozen saying I should get rid of it. The two nays are more unequivocal than the yeas, though.

I knew you owned E30s from prior messages, srs_49 and qbrozen.

I was leaning towards selling my E30 before I posted my message, because I think it's the rational thing for me to do. If I kept it, it would be more of an emotional decision. After thinking hard about it, and weighing your arguments, I've decided to do the rational thing and sell this car within the next three months. I'm not going to invest money in it for repairs, but I'll change the oil, since that's due. I like to maintain my cars, even if I plan on selling them soon.

I've been a life-long car buff but, unfortunately, unlike you guys, I also happen to be a lousy mechanic. For this reason I don't work on my cars. Oh, I do some very simple things, but I know my limitations. I wish I were better at turning a wrench. Anyway, this is an important consideration in the keeping vs. selling decision

I'm one of those dumb guys who gets attched to their cars, but when push comes to shove the rational side of my brain usually prevails.

Incidentally, I purchased this car from the original owner a4 1/2 years ago, for $2,950. I've spent more than that on repairs, though. It had 102,000 miles on it, and it was pristine. It hasn't been cheap transportation (nor terribly expensive, either), but I've enjoyed owning it. It's time to move on.

qbrozen

I think, in the long run, you'll be confident you made the right decision.

And now, of course, you could have the pleasure of finding a replacement.

And if I didn't have 6 cars at the moment, I would probably ask you where you live.

Mr_Shiftright

Again, my opinion was influenced heavily upon whether you would be doing your own work or not.

qbrozen

oh, same here.

an old car with low value is never something you want to have to pay someone to fix for you. It is just not economically sound.

euphonium

When poor, we still shined our shoes with holes in the soles, polished the car needing repair, & used the broom indoors. Sometimes you make the best of it doing what you can with what you have.

Mr_Shiftright

True but he's talking about paying someone to push the broom. :P

hpmctorque

I live in Maryland, in the DC metro area. That's not too far from NJ.

hpmctorque

Yes, that's what I understood. If I could do this work myself I'd probably keep this car. As you alluded to, paying Hans and Dieter to do the work changes the economic equation.

qbrozen

That's not too far from NJ.

Oh, no you don't! I'm not listening! La lalalala la la! :P

fezo

Road trip!

Mr_Shiftright

You could rent a tow dolly from U-Haul, and.......

qbrozen

Oh, I have a tow dolly ...

:mad:
dammit! knock it off!

ghulet

funny, I'm kinda now in the same situation, more or less. I know Shiftright, you told me not to put too much $$ into my '88 528e (I paid $800 for the car, have spent $151 having the trans filter/gasket/fluid and oil changed, in ~7 months and 3k miles of driving; it's pretty much an urban grocery-getter, and gets me to my four- mile each way commute to work twice a week. Now, it's doing what it did, once again, when I had the trans work done, i.e., auto trans is slipping badly. I know it was suggested that the problem may be the driveshaft (?), which sounded like a ~$650 repair. So I guess I'm in a quandry: I don't have much $ in the car, but other than the slipping, it runs great, honestly, everything works, and looks decent for 22 years old. I could just dump it for $200-500 as it sits, or get it fixed, go carless, which wouldn't be a big deal at this point, or find some other beater. Honestly, I'm leaning toward getting it fixed, as the $1000-3000 vehicles I've seen are really depressing, and may also need God-knows-what. Financing another car is not an option, and I have limited cash and income (IOW, I'm basically poor right now!). I know the car isn't worth any money either fixed or not. Suggestions? Sorry for the novel.

Mr_Shiftright

I think in this case it depends very much on how well you can control costs during the repair process.

In other words, what you DON'T want to happen is this:

You leave the car off. They will "check it out". You come back and see your transmission all over the floor and they say "So, what do you want to do?"

You see the problem. Once you "open the box" you don't know what's going to happen. It's a roll of the dice. Do you like to gamble? Are you prepared to "go all the way" on the transmission?

If you aren't, don't open the box, is my advice......or.....*very* tightly regulate the repair process, if possible, to be done in a step by step fashion, such as:

Okay, drop the pan and report to me

Or

Okay, clean the valve body and report to me

NOT

Okay, take it out, break it all down and let's see what's what.

ghulet

there's no way I'm having the trans replaced....that would be, what, $1500+++, on a 22 year-old car with 153k? Not happening, and honestly I don't think it's necessary.
Car is drivable, technically, and there's an (allegedly) good BMW shop a little over a mile from my house....thinking I'll call them soon. I like the valve body suggestion, though I don't even know what that is

I'm guessing you're not psychic, but when I had the fluid/filter/gasket changed, it worked like a charm, at least for four months. I'm wondering if it has a serious fluid leak somewhere (haven't noticed in my garage, then again, it's winter, garage is snowy/wet, and I'm not the most observant guy when it comes to car stuff). Guess I should just start there first (even I can check and fill the fluid). I guess I'm asking if this sounds like the drivetrain or maybe differential (forgive me if I'm using wrong terminology). Thanks, as always, for advice/suggestions.

Mr_Shiftright

Not sure what you mean by slipping---if you mean, you press on the gas, and the tachometer reads higher and higher but the car doesn't move, then that's not a driveshaft or differential issue, and the transmission is probably toast.

If you mean lurching or jerking, but the tach isn't running wild, you might have some mount or driveshaft issue.

hpmctorque

Interesting situation. Please let us know what you do.

As for my 3, I drive it a few miles about once every 10 days or so, just to keep it operable, while I look for a replacement. I might be foolish enough to spend the $2,400 required to get it in tip top shape, but my wife agrees with Shifty, even though she never logs on to Edmunds, and is against spending that much on a 23 year old car. She obviously has more sense and less emotional baggage than I do.

Mr_Shiftright

I also have telepathic powers, (which I only use in the service of Good, not Evil) so I'm not surprised to hear this. :P

But you're right---it is easier to make decisions when one is not emotionally involved in the car. This is why I enjoy appraising other people's cars. If I were appraising my OWN cars, it would be agony.

A grotesque analogy would be how you might spend $2000 trying to save your pet cat, as opposed to the value you place on the neighbor's cat when he relieves himself in your flower beds.

euphonium

Before helping my friend mow his lawn he asked me to wait until he picked up the poop. After scooping a shovel full, he said he was tempted to toss it all in the neighbors yard that owned the guilty dog. I dared him to - so he did.

The neighbor opened his window and yelled, "Damnit Brad, my dog didn't do all of that." Brad replied, " O K, O k, Pick out what's yours and throw the rest back!!"

stever

Going to a dealer is about as painful as Hercules' task.

My '99 Quest needs new shoes - $350. The ebrake broke two weeks ago and there's a big honking ding in the oil pan (like 4" long by an inch deep). Needs shocks too. It's got 138,000 miles on it. The rub is that it's comfortable and holds a lot of camping gear and other stuff that fits our lifestyle well. Lifetime mpg is still holding at 21.4 mixed driving. I had some injector issues a year or two back and I've put $3,000 in the van in the last 3 years for new belts, plugs, distributor, etc. And it seems to run pretty good.

My '97 Outback isn't as comfortable and it needs a timing belt ($700+). Otherwise it seems to be running good at 78,000 miles and it's been real handy in the snow. The wagon has been fine for roadtrips and camping too, although I can't just toss stuff in like I can with the van.

At most, both cars together may be worth $8,000, but probably $4k for the Outback and $2k for the van.

We've been shopping for a couple of years now. Came close to getting a MT Hyundai Elantra Touring, a MT Scion xD, and a Prius II. The MT Mazda5 holds interest but we think we'd like to downside just a bit from a minivan. The new Fiesta could work too.

I dunno - I'm inclined to get new tires on the van, price some shocks and watch for leaks. The OB is overdue time-wise for the timing belt and it's an interference engine so I need to move on that. That would buy me a couple more years, and I really like the idea of using something completely up instead of trading every 3 years. I kept one Toyota 17 years and just sold it 'cause we moved. Getting stranded doesn't keep me up at night, although we do plan a couple of roadtrips this summer.

We don't need two cars anymore so trading or craigslisting one or both is appealing too. I can pay cash but really don't see much out there that's worth more than ~$25k for what we need. That's one reason we didn't trade the van during Cash for Clunkers - nothing really grabbed us.

Sounds like I've made a decision but maybe I'm missing something else.

Steve, visiting host