To Fix Up or Trade Up, That is the Question

jchan2

We fixed the hood release, for a total of $175 and some odd cents. We split it with our son 50/50, while he had to wait at the dealer for the car.

An added bonus was that the dealer also tapped out the dent in the bumper, so instead of a large dent, there is just a large scratch and a little bit of warping on the bumper. Nothing terribly major anymore. Then again, there is another large scratch on the other side of the bumper that was put in by me several years ago, so I guess instead of 1 scratch, there is now 2.

explorerx4

letting my kids drive to school and back, after sports training/practice makes our lives(me and the wife), much easier.
i used to go to work at 5 am so i could get out by 3 pm to pick up at the school by 3:30.
now i can get to work by 6 and not have to worry as much about what time i NEED to leave.
my wife can go to work earlier and get out of work earlier.
my daughter appreciates that we trust her with the responsibility of driving to school and back.
once a week she drives 20 miles each way to play field hockey.
the return trip involves the dreaded 5+ pm back across a major bridge crossing during peak traffic time. i don't think she realizes that, yet.

Mr_Shiftright

When I am appointed King, I will definitely revoke all 16 year olds' driver's licenses. I am not negotiable on this point; however I may repeal my edict to ban Monday night football if enough people beg me. :P

kyfdx

I foresee abdication/exile in your future... :P

Mr_Shiftright

Ha! Storm my fortress and die! :mad:

Methinks I'll have quite a few parents on my side here...not ALL, but all a despot needs is 51%

As for the football ban, I agree,,,,,*very* risky.

Karen_S

A reporter from a large financial newspaper would like to speak to consumers who are holding onto their cars or deferring purchasing a car because of economic downturn. Please respond to ctalati@edmunds.com with your daytime contact information no later than Friday, January 30, 2009.

lokki

When I am appointed King, I will definitely revoke all 16 year olds' driver's licenses.

Taking licenses from 16 year olds isn't quite the same as taking candy from babies...

Maybe you can do it, but your punishment will be to have sulking teenagers slamming around the house muttering curses at you all weekend.....By Sunday, you're going to be awfully tired... particularly if the Frau sides with her offspring.

Suddenly watching a football game with the sound turned up real loud and having a couple of strong drinks is going to seem a lot more appealing. :P

Sincerely yours,

Cassandra, aged 16.

kiawah

LOL....good one.

My 16 year old is an excellent driver. Still needs years of experience, but much better than I was at 16, but we didn't have graduated licensing back then in the stone ages.

Mr_Shiftright

No they won't sulk because NO 16 year old will be driving in my regime. So they have no one to be jealous of.

Karen_S

A reporter is looking to talk to consumers who are either fixing his/her car or having a mechanic fix up their vehicle instead of purchasing a new one. Please send your email address and phone number to ctalati@edmunds.com by Wednesday, February 25, 2009.

rho1953

Horse manure. Both of my kids are driving high mileage GM cars with perfectly good transmissions. My son's 96 Corsica has the original tranny and it shifts fine. My daughters 2000 Malibu shifts like a new car. If you want to believe that made up stuff go ahead, but don't try and push it off on us.

qbrozen

If you reread his statement, he was specifically referring to minivans and NOT specifically referring to transmissions.

Mr_Shiftright

You have to play the odds.

The odds (some may exceed the odds, some may not make the odds, but MOST will just about meet the odds) say that at around 175,000K a typical car is just about washed up.

That means of course that if you replace a transmission on a car with 135,000 miles on it, that is no guarantee that the rest of the car won't give up the ghost soon after.

And if you divide a car's lifetime into say 4 segments, from 0-50K, 50K-100K etc etc, the last two segments are going to be way more expensive than the first two.

In theory, you can keep ANY car, even a Yugo, running for one million miles. Why not? All you have to do is keep pouring money into it.

oldfarmer50

"...In theory, you can keep ANY car...running for one million miles..."

True, just look at Cuba.

Maybe now that they are relaxing travel restrictions, I'll take a trip down there and pick up a nice '57 Chevy.

Mr_Shiftright

You might find a '57 Chevy but it will have a Russian engine in it, a radiator from a tractor, carved painted wood for trim, and 25 sheet metal patches in the floor.

fezo

Sure, but other than that any problems?

lokki

I used to work with a cheap guy who just wouldn't shut up about how Sam Walton drove an old pick-up truck. Day after day "Sam WALTON is rich but he drives an old truck...." I finally had had enough and told him:

Of COURSE Sam Walton can afford to drive an old pick-up truck - he has money!

If anything goes wrong with his truck, he just drives one of his other cars and has it fixed. Cigarette burn in the upholstry? Replace the seat. Scratch in the paint? Have the truck repainted. He can AFFORD to repair whatever's necessary.

A poor guy can't afford to own an OLD car and make those repairs - he needs a NEW car with a warranty so somebody else will pay for the repairs.
I'm not sure I actually believe all that, but it shut him up for a looooong time :P

Mr_Shiftright

Well your argument carries some weight in the extreme case at least....the cost of nursing a marginal crippled car around, pouring good money after bad, vs. the $300 a month cay payment and no worries (we hope not at least).

It's not easy to spend $3600 a year on an old used car that you desperately need for work, but I'm sure some people are doing that very thing as we speak.

euphonium

When buying a "gently used" vehicle from the "Used Car Factory" dealer, the initial depreciation will be $3,600 as soon as you drive it off the lot.

There is peace of mind knowing what repairs have been made in your present car vs the "what's next" in an unknown replacement.

Mr_Shiftright

True but if the car is kind of junky, you are pouring money into a worthless asset. This is painful to do, even if you are driving it.

euphonium

Agree.

When its junky - junk it.

Mr_Shiftright

I meant cosmetically junky. It might run okay but it's starting to attract the wrong kind of attention.

maryh3

I need advise. I had an accident yesterday with my 1995 Ford Taurus SHO. I rear-ended a woman who was merging but changed her mind suddenly. Must have hit her in a bad way since she had almost no damage but I will probably need a hood, headlight and turn signal assembly and radiator work. Haven't shopped around yet for body work but a casual quick estimate was about $3000. I dropped collision insurance last year due to the age of the car and the fact that it is not driven much.

The car is supposedly somewhat rare and coveted. It is an automatic 1995 Ford Taurus SHO with 107,000 miles on it. Runs perfectly. A slight amount of rust (garaged most of the time). May need dual exhaust system in a year or two. Has new tires, brakes. Like all SHO's it has lots of upgrades. Was never abused, we are original owners, and it still is fun to drive since it has the coveted powerful engine.

Fix it up or donate it to charity in its damaged condition or fix it?

The car is liked but will it hold it's value to make it worth the costs? Hate to see the fine and fun 95 SHO sent to the graveyard due to a stupid accident, but can I justify the expense of repairing it? Any advise?

Mr_Shiftright

It's definitely not worth fixing. There may be a minor cult that likes the car but the market does not reflect any great value for it. Rare does not imply value. Underneath it all, it's just a Ford Taurus with a nice engine. Give the car's needs, and given that I think your estimate to repair it is too low, I'd advise you to let it go, either by advertising it AS IS in craigslist or sending it to the wrecker. You won't get anything for it by donating it, since donation rules have changed and you'll only get to deduct junk value--a couple hundred bucks.

Your only other option, which is also the only way there can be any upside to this situation, is for you to find all the pieces you need at a wrecking yard, all in the same color as your car, and install them yourself and drive the car around as it is.

euphonium

In most areas there are highly qualified bodymen who selectively repair cars such as yours for as little as 1/4th to 1/3rd of the downtown commercial shops. These bodymen work evenings and weekends and if retired, more than that. Ask around (networking) & you will soon learn who to go to. Payment by cash works best.

Our 95 T Bird has been repaired several times by such a bodyman and the work is perfect. Right now, he has a 55 T Bird in his shop.

If you can find a retired or moon lighting body mechanic as outlined above, fix it.

Mr_Shiftright

On the other hand, if he really likes the SHO, just go buy another one---they are dirt cheap and you can find a nicer one than the one he has for less money than repairing his own.

euphonium

You may be right.

1995
Used Ford Taurus SHO
Sedan, White, 3.2L V6, AUTO 4SPD, FWD, 4 door, Stock# 17441
Dealer: Reposses Auto Sales, Inc. 877-299-9140 $3,500



Van Nuys, CA

In addition there is:

1995
Used Ford Taurus SHO
Sedan, White, 6 Cylinders, AUTOMATIC, FWD, 4 door, Stock# 2248
Dealer: Phillipsburg Auto Sales 888-839-0013 $3,290
90,000 mi


Phillipsburg, NJ

maryh3

Thanks for the advise. You are correct but no doubt many on this forum understand how we get attached to cars. It was such a small accident, that it seems like it should not have totalled my car. But this is life!!

The only other option would be to buy pieces on e-bay, like you say, and install them myself or have someone do it for me for labor costs only. I see a hood on e-bay for $40.00 in my color, that is 2 hrs away. Headlights are reasonable on e-bay too. I may be biting off more than I can chew though - I'm not mechanically inclined. Will I be able to find all the brackets and screws and monuts that I need? Probably won't know until I try to install the replacement pieces.

Do you think I should pursue this route? Basically it needs a new hood, some radiator repair and headlights with the mountings etc. These things do appear on e-bay. This ins't a question of money rather its that I hate to see things go to waste.

Mr_Shiftright

It's hard to tell you what to do without seeing the car, or at least some good photos of the damage.

"waste" is, as you say, a subjective term. To me, it's a "waste" of your time, but to you, maybe not. Fixing a smacked up car is often not just a matter of bolting new parts on there. Things have been bent, pushed, etc and there are little bits and pieces, such as brackets, trim parts, that you may not yet know are damaged.

Why don't you go to a "real" bodyshop and get a real estimate to start with? That would give us some idea of how much you can save doing it all "on the cheap".

Also posting some photos would be good.

To help you with a frame of reference, I think your car could be replaced with one in kind for about $2,500.

bolivar

I think you are getting good advice on here.

When I first read your message, the first thing I thought was '$3,000 to repair a car that probably worth about $3,000, at the very best'. And this is NOT a good 'deal' to get into.

I'm not a body repairman, but my guess is that the problem you would get into by buying the parts yourselves, is that you can find the hood, headlights, all the large external parts. But, you probably have broken smaller plastic parts - brackets, braces, clips, etc inside the nose and around the radiator. These will have to be bought from Ford, if available, or gotten from a salvage. And any salvage car hit in the front will not have these parts, since they were also damaged in it's wreck.

I'm sorry, but I would not repair this car. I'll bet with 100,000+ miles, the leather on the seats is in rather bad shape.

The car has its supporters, but overall is not that special. At it's time, which actually was the early models, 1989 or so, this car was a powerful sedan. But by 1995, many, many sedans had surpassed the power and handling of the SHO.

This advice is being given by someone that owned a new 1991 SHO for about 6 years. And, I drove a new 1995 automatic, considering the car to get away from my standard transmission car. The 1995 automatic seemed less powerful, and as I said, there were other options to buy in the 'sport sedan' class rather than SHO's. When we sold our car, it only had about 42,000 miles. It still ran well, but the paint was fading off all over, and I was very happy having the extended warranty we bought for the car, because it had been used quite a bit. The clutch was getting harder and harder to push, and it was going to need work soon, which was not covered by the warranty.

Overall, don't put 100% of the value of the car into it. Not even 50%. It's time to move on. A newer Honda Accord V6 will have about the same power, comfort, and handling as your SHO.

maryh3

OK -- I followed thew advise of the poster above who told me to Craigslist the repairs and of course, in this recession, I received plenty of responses. Its pretty easy to sort through them though.

Had 2 people who seem professional look at it and both said, as I suspected, that the hit just wasn't that bad (and since I'm the one who did it I can verify that I didn't hit her very hard). I think the bumpers on the SHO are just so low that I slid under her bumper hence, an unprotected area was hit.

One repairman, that I like, says he can do it for $1000 which includes everything. I picked up the quote for the original body shop ($3000) and noticed they were using some ridiculous things like $795 for a brand new hood and $293 for headlights etc. He and I looked at new and used parts on E-bay, the internet, catalogs etc and I know I can save $1000 off the original quote for parts alone. IOW I think this Craigslist man's quote is pretty reasonable, fair, and he is still making a decent wage. We were "educated" about where to use new and where to use used parts for the repair.

I also advertised it on Craigslist for sale as an "AS IS" and have received NO responses. So I have to assume the value is below $500. The way I'm looking at it is that I don't think I can get ANY used car for less than $1500 (the $500 sale price plus $1000 to fix it) that runs as well, still has AC, and with a known history of not being abused. Plus, just about 2 months ago I put new tires and brakes on it (they were the OE brakes).

Another factor is the "ego". I came out of church last week and there was a man looking at it and his wife dragging him away and he is telling her "I just want to see which engine it has in it". We do get questions and comments and people looking through the windows at it occasionally. Not a big deal, but I would never get that with a V-6 Honda (yawn). Agree that this should not be a factor in the decision but it can be fun anyhow.

So how do you feel about the $1000 quote? I'm pretty comfortable. I will post pictures later.

For bolivar -- the leather seats are actually in very good condition. We had an 89 stickshift SHO before we traded it in years ago for this automatic 95 SHO. The 89 leather did not wear well and I remember there were cracks in it. I think Ford may have gotten enough complaints that they changed something so the later model SHO's leather wore better.

Mr_Shiftright

Well you'll get what you pay for. You have no recourse with a "moonlighter" if he botches up the car. How's he going to paint it? In his garage? Will the paint match?

On the other hand, your argument that you can't find a decent car for $1500 is reasonable---however, we (or at least I) was suggesting that you just buy a clean 95 SHO---in other words a BETTER version of your car, for about $3500.

You can argue, and it's not a bad argument either, that you're better off with what you know than what you don't know.

Once again, the whole scenario is "marginal". If your position is emotional rather than logical, then you have every right to fix the car, or even spend $10,000 on it--who are we to tell you what to love?

but if you want to be coldly logical, your approach is risky---not crazy, but risky.

In other words, you could come out all right (and I hope you do) or you could just be throwing good money after bad and end up with something you don't like and doesn't look good.

Once again, without photos of the damage, I can't say much more about it.

maryh3

I am weighing my options especially with the fact that they are almost giving away new cars right now, especially American ones. Fantastic deals on something like a Malibu right now. My teen aged sons however want the SHO.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm a big fan of giving teenagers old cars to bang around. In that case, patching it up with used parts might not be a bad idea. With this wrinkle, you are turning my head on this one.

euphonium

Please reread post #485 as your experience confirms it.

jipster

I'm a big fan of giving teenagers old cars to bang around

Me too. But, a fast car and a teenager together? Hope it is a mature and responsible teenager.

Mr_Shiftright

Well a '95 SHO is no faster than most cars these days. It's not like a real zoom-zoom car, like a Mustang or EVO or some such. It's probably 0-60 in 7.5 seconds. That's about 2.5 seconds faster than a Prius, and it's an automatic besides. It's bizarre to say a 7.5 second car is dangerous but a 9.5 second car is "safe".

maryh3

I agree completely and as one of the posters above already pointed out that in 89, the SHO was very powerful compared to other cars, but since those days a plain old V-6 Honda surpasses it as do many other cars. I checked the safety ratings for it in the past. It had a 4 star crash rating, dual airbags, good handling and this one ain't going to roll like lots of the SUV's many parents buy for their teens -- not bad.

Car does have nice torque at at all speeds but if a kid is going to go fast, all cars can and will go fast. All parents have to constantly warn their kids about speed and safety. Showing them articles in the newspaper about teenaged car accidents and deaths does get them listening for a short while. Some cars will cost you more to insure with a teenaged driver, than the cars is worth. There are no right or wrong answers on this issue. Everything is a trade off.

I do like the power/torque of the SHO but the transmission is clunky by today's standards.

srs_49

Well a '95 SHO is no faster than most cars these days. It's not like a real zoom-zoom car, like a Mustang or EVO or some such. It's probably 0-60 in 7.5 seconds. That's about 2.5 seconds faster than a Prius, and it's an automatic besides. It's bizarre to say a 7.5 second car is dangerous but a 9.5 second car is "safe"

Geech, Shifty - 7.5 sec to 60 is slow??? That's as fast as my '69 Z-28 ran. Of course that is not what it was set up for, as the engine really didn't start to run until 4,000 rpm, so 0-60 and quarter miles times were not a quick as a lot of the other big-block muscle cars.

But, there is a big difference, IMO, especially for an inexperienced driver, between a 7.5 sec 0-60 car and a 10 sec one. That's not to say that one is dangerous and the other is not, but it's a lot easier to get into trouble by "punching" the throttle at the wrong time (into a curve, in the rain, etc) with the former than with the latter.

jipster

But, there is a big difference, IMO, especially for an inexperienced driver, between a 7.5 sec 0-60 car and a 10 sec one. That's not to say that one is dangerous and the other is not, but it's a lot easier to get into trouble by "punching" the throttle at the wrong time (into a curve, in the rain, etc) with the former than with the latter.

Exactly. But, the SHO is quite a bit faster than shifty indicated. The first generation ran 0-60mph in 6.6 seconds (quite a bit faster than a Honda Accord). And while not a sports car, it is a high performance car. To a teenage or younger driver it is all about perception. He is given a "fast" car, therefore there is implicate permission to go fast... and I doubt the handling characteristics of the car equals that of it's acceleration/speed.

Mr_Shiftright

You're thinking of the first ones...by 1995 the SHO was porkier and pokier, I believe, for whatever reason.

I actually had my Scion xA TIMED at 0-60 in 8.5 seconds---that's with a 1.5L engine and me getting off a really good launch and a clutch dump...nonetheless, to gain 1 second on an SHO for all the complexity of it seems like no big deal in this day and age.

For a teenager, driving a slow car is way more of an education than driving a fast car. I'd buy him/her the slowest car I could possibly find, as long as it had air bags.

Yeah. 7.5 is not a fast car anymore. There are mini vans out there that would mop up many a 60s muscle car.

Even 6.6 isn't very fast. Many new pocket rockets can do that. There are cars in dealers' showrooms right now that are in the 4s & 5s---quite a few of them. A 15 year old Mazda RX TT is faster than 6.6.

srs_49

For a teenager, driving a slow car is way more of an education than driving a fast car. I'd buy him/her the slowest car I could possibly find, as long as it had air bags

Yep. Maybe one of the early 70's Scamps with the slant 6. Or a 78 Ford Fairmont with the straight 6. No danger of any speed related issues there :P :P. Of course, they don't have the airbags

Mr_Shiftright

Gotta have air bags. Teenagers are very accident prone and one should pretty much count on a mishap of some sort.

maryh3

You might want to read this article:

http://carfamily.wordpress.com/category/hummer/

What did GM say years ago? Something to the effect of "If safety was all that mattered we'd build a tank that floats, wouldn't go over 25 mph and forced everyone to be strapped down when in motion --- but it would never sell. It's not what people want."

I tend to think completely opposite of what some are saying concerning "perception". Reality is the goal. A teen driving a V-6 Honda with its yawn image probably has no idea his car is powerful so he might have no idea how fast he is going. He might feel the need to prove his car has muscle via the accelerator. The SHO OTOH has the perception of being nastier and faster than it really is by today's standards so his ego is satisfied and he thinks he is going faster than he really is and has nothing to prove. "Slow" cars tend to have smaller engines so they weigh less -- not good in a multiple vehicle accident. Little cars lack metal and weight which can act to protect in accidents. Talk to your insurance man and he will have tons of stories about some family who gives their kid an Escalade only to have them total it the next week. Many teens roll SUV's. Most of the fatalities I've heard of involving teens happened when they were driving some type of SUV. And unless mom and dad are made of money gas mileage needs to be considered.

My sons have driven the SHO for a few years and who is the one who wrecks it? Mom, the experienced driver, of course.

Won't be buying the new SHO though -- this one really IS a beast:

http://njection.com/blogs/jalopnik/archive/2009/02/11/2010-ford-taurus-sho-live-- - and-with-a-ridiculous-torque-curve-ford-taurus-sho.aspx

Makes my SHO look like a pansy:

http://www.shotimes.com/php-bin/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&mo- de=thread&order=0&thold=0&sid=22

Mr_Shiftright

Statistics for teenager injuries and death in cars are very very grim. Fact is, no car is "safe". Some are just less dangerous than others, and it's hard to even count on that, even all the complex dynamics of car accidents.

Oddly enough the best car statistically for a teenager is one without a back seat! That's not off-color---what it means is that he/she can only carry one passenger---less distraction, trouble, etc.

maryh3

Now that really IS informative. We can put lots of emphasis on air bags, weight, handling, body type etc -- but the biggest factor turns out to be driver distraction. And this something we parents do have SOME control over. Interesting.

lokki

My theory on the best teen car is a pretty decent looking 69 Camaro with a rod sticking through the block. He owns it; it's "HIS" car, but it just doesn't run right now. Can't stick any old engine in such a nice car, so he needs to get a job to buy a nice small block to put in there. In the meantime, he can drive the minivan until he saves the money. However he can tell all his friends that he owns a nice camaro.

By the time he's saved the money, and actually gotten the thing to run, he'll be 22

I rest my case, ladies and gentlemen of the jury.

jipster

If safety was all that mattered we'd build a tank that floats, wouldn't go over 25 mph and forced everyone to be strapped down when in motion --- but it would never sell. It's not what people want."

Hell, I'd love to drive a tank. If they can build a 48 ton Sherman series tank for under 20 grand, and get 26 mpg hwy on it... sign me up! Wouldn't matter if it only got 25mph... the shortest distance between 2 points thing. :P

Mr_Shiftright

I drove a tank one time. I traded the driver for a spin in my 5 ton wrecker. It was great fun but there was no ammunition

bolivar

My 1991 SHO had very nasty torque steer if you did try to launch it fast. Or even jump on the throttle in 1st or 2nd. The car would instantly jump sideways and you better be ready to saw away at the steering wheel to get it back into your lane.

The car did have some maintenance items. It also had only a 12/12,000 factory warranty, probably just before manufactors went to the 36/36,000 warranty. So, I was happy I had purchased an extended warranty. But actually, even with a few 'issues', I think I only broke even on what the repairs cost verse the cost of the warranty. But, it still had over a year left on the warranty, and I strongly suggested to the guy I sold it to that he should pay the $50 transfer fee so he could have about 18,000 mile and 18 months of warranty on the car.

Overall, the car was very nice. The interior looked great. Ours was black, and looked nice outside until the paint started to evaporate off. It was very quiet and stable at speed. I actually compared it to a Lexus - until you slamed a door - then it sounded like a Ford. But driving the car - it was great.

Problems - various things failed, I actually don't remember what at this time - AC clutch failed and leaked, motor mount loose, etc.
The biggest problem was the clutch, an even bigger problem on the 1989 models. It just required more and more effort to push as the car aged. We drove it from the midwest to NJ area one summer, hitting some extended traffic slowdowns on the trip, and the clutch was terrible, inching along in trafffic with constant upshifts/downshift with high effort for miles and miles of construction zones, heavy traffic, etc. This trip made me decide the car had to go.

And, this motor had no torque at all. To get any speed, you had to really get it into the higher rpms, or it was dead. At 3,500rpm the valves on the secondary set of intake runners opened, and the engine came to life. But cruising on a two lane, even with a long passing opening, you better drop down from 5th to 4th, or you would take forever to pass at 65mph. Several times at more moderate speeds, like 45 or 50, I got the car into a place where it was almost dangerous because it had no acceleration available in the gear I had it in - you had to downshift, at times more than one gear, and go to full throttle to get it to move. And then the torque steer jumped up. You just can't beat big iron, high torque motors for these situations. And, this is why I don't really like to drive a manual, you have to be thinking about what you need to be doing with the gears and throttle all the time - with an automatic you just mash to throttle and let the auto tranny decide how far down it can downshift.

It was fast. I can attest to 135mph and this was not topped out.

A car that was nice to own, but I was happy to sell.