To Fix Up or Trade Up, That is the Question

hpmctorque

"Are we crazy to put $1500 into a car worth less than what it's worth?"

No, IF your Accord has been well maintained and driven normally, it should go at least 250,000 miles. In addition to mileage, age is a factor in longevity, and your car isn't too old to continue providing good service. Naturally, it'll tend to require more repairs with age than a newer, lower mileage car, but since it's already fully depreciated you'll save money there.

what car do you all recommend for a 6'2 tall guy that gets HIGH MPG that isn't over $15k?? (I noticed the best MPG cars are little shoeboxes on wheels. Not too great for a tall, lanky guy!"

That's a personal choice. Unlike in the 1970s, '80s, and '90s, virtually all cars are good today. Given the amount of time he spends in his car, he should buy a car that suits his particular needs and preferences.

euphonium

$1500 is worth not having to pour out Thousands for a replacement depreciating asset.

While in Boulder, CO on vacation after descending Rocky Mt. N.P. our 95 T Bird required two new front rotors, pads, rear rotors were turned, + new pads, but the major unexpected expense was having to replace the heater core. The core was only $99, but the labor was very high due to having to remove the front bucket seat and pull back the dash board to get to the core.

Had we traded it on the spot for a late Mustang, they wouldn't give much as is.
Were we to sell it to a friend back home, we'd have to fix it first, so after doing the repairs, why not drive it ourselves. It's a 4.6 V8 and at 60 mph we got 31.5 mpg between Tremonton, UT and Baker City, OR. Mileage on the car = 113,657.

hpmctorque

I agree with you, euphonium.

Market value is a factor to consider in deciding whether a repair is worth it, but not the only factor. One should also consider the pay back on the repair versus the higher cost and depreciation associated with buying a new(er) car. A third consideration, to which you alluded, is the value a repair adds to the car one is already driving.

Mr_Shiftright

Very true. The first question to ask is: "Does this car have GOOD BONES?". If you have a fabulous used car with one big thing wrong with it, then you have to consider that in 2008 America, you need to spend a minimum of $3,500 for any decent used car, and probably more like a minimum of $5,000 for anything reasonably clean, reliable and "ready to roll" without a gazillion miles on it. And even then, at that price range, you takes your chances.

mary36

Thanks guys.... you all helped debunk the traditional rule of thumb of putting more money into a car than what it's worth.

I know these things depreciate... plus on top of that, my hubby gets no car allowance or gas expenses. So it is definitely in our best interest to be as economical with a car purchase as possible.

However, after $1500 worth of work (plus new tires), I'm afraid more things are going to break down, leak, need replacing, etc with $500 maintenance jobs here and there.

And who knows how it will hold up after getting this big repair job done. Sorry, just having doubts about this 9 year old car.

Mr_Shiftright

That's where the "good bones" comes in. It's certainly not a bad idea to have the entire car checked over before you invest any money in it.

If it were 175K miles on it, or if an inspection found other issues, I'd have a different opinion.

Or to put it another way, one person's cheerful dumb optimism ( :P ) based on little evidence is no better or worse than another person's doubts, also based on a lack of evidence.

lemmer

I had a friend recently sell a '98 Accord LX with 201K for $3500, and it only took a day to sell it. Yes, on a car like that things will break on a regular basis, but it will still be cheaper than a new car. That being said, I'd probably sell it an move up to something with 120K for $5-6K.

Mr_Shiftright

I like to use the analogy of the old man of 90 years old who is in GREAT shape. Swims every day. Hikes. Jogs. Just had a baby. This is like the Honda with 201K that's running great.

Then, one day, he just keels over. Is anyone surprised? Of course not. He already beat the odds.

So with the Honda. The "end" could happen at any moment, or it could go another 3 years. It's a $3,500 roll of the dice at that mileage.

mary36

I just talked to the repair guys and got more details.
It's broken down like this: timing belt, tune up, secondary ignition parts, catalytic converter.

He cut down the price to $1440 - so not by much. (It's about $60/hr labor). Is that normal?

The guys seems to think that if we get the repairs done, we should at least be able to make it to 300k miles. My husband drives 35k miles/year... so that would buy us about 3 more yrs (barring nothing else going wrong). :confuse:

Mr_Shiftright

I'm sorry, tell me again why you need a new catalytic? Was this tested.

Where I come from, $60/hr is a half-price sale.

mary36

Did I mention you're talking to the wife?

I hadn't a clue about why we need a new catalytic. That's what the mechanic said.
He said that's what's causing the engine light to come on. He did mention that of the 4 things that needed to be done, he would do the catalytic last. If that tells you anything. Should I be concerned?

Mr_Shiftright

Ah, okay, he's GUESSING. That's not so good.

To his credit, he's saving the most expensive guess for last.

I'd get the engine light issue fixed FIRST. Then worry about timing belt, once that's solved.

mary36

But at 211k miles... aren't we 11k miles overdue for the timing belt??
Shouldn't that be done first?

lemmer

By the way, my friend had his check engine light on due to the catalytic converter being out of spec. I would be tempted to sell it (with full disclosure) for around $3K. It isn't worth that to me, but I bet it is to somebody else.

Mr_Shiftright

Well I meant that he can fix the engine light issue at the shop and then test it for a few miles.

mary36

Called back the mechanic.... he said the catalytic converter is not filtering properly and has gone bad.

Mr_Shiftright

Well okay if he tested it and he's sure.

mary36

So..... ya think we should just suck it up and pay the $1440 to get it all fixed?
Oh and forgot about the tires too. :sick:

Mr_Shiftright

Well have you seen any $2,000 1999 Accords for sale?

If you got another 36,000 miles for $2,000, thats pretty darn good on a per mile basis.

Anyway, if you bought a new car, you'd lost $3,000 at least just driving off the showroom floor.

mary36

Good points... thanks!
We never buy new... always used and in cash. We were looking at Accords with 60k miles or less on them... those things were running for $17k+ ! :surprise:

mary36

Four new 65k mile tires = $350
Not too bad...

I think we're going to get the car fixed. Thanks for all the advice!!

hprenter

My question is similar to the Quest, my transmission went out at 70k miles and Honda took care of it, I doubt they will do it twice. I drive 30k per year, should I dump it. A transmission is almost $4k I am going to have to do a major service at 90k timing belt etc.

srs_49

All depends on why the tranny failed in the first place. Was there a weak part in it that the original repair replaced with an upgrade? Or is the problem an inherent deficiency in the transmission?

Our '94 Dodge Caravan had the transmission go out, but it was still under warranty. Don't remember the exact mileage that this happened, but I think is was around 50K miles. The dealer fixed it for no charge. We never touched the transmission again, except for a fluid change out or two, until we got rid of it at the 178K mile mark 3.5 years ago.

hprenter

the 99-03 v6 transmissions in Honda's and Acura's are defective.

mary36

Thank goodness, ours is 4 cyl.

explorerx4

what is the big repair job? a timing belt replacement is maintenance. if it was a newer accord with the same mileage, it would still need to be done.
oops, was catching up and didn't see the additional details about the repairs.
if you bought a 2 or 3 year old accord with the original tires, how long before those need replacing?
at 60k miles you are looking at the timing belt replacement (assuming the more recent models still have them) in a bit over a year.

jipster

We're at a crossroads. Are we crazy to put $1500 into a car worth less than what it's worth?

Depends on your financial situation. If money is tight I'd go ahead and repair it and put some new tires on. Keep on truckin!

bolivar

Well, at least for Accords, I think it actually was 2000 and 2001 transmissions that had problems. I think the Accura actually had a problem different from the Accords - their 3.5L motors have a differeent tranny from the 3.0L Accords. And, it was a more severe problem - some of the Accuras actually 'locked up' at high speed. The Accords only had severe noise, mainly in reverse, and driveablility problems.

I may not be correct with the above, but this is the best of my memory.

And, for the Accords, there was one part that was causing the problem, from one supplier, and when this was determined, the problem was resolved. I had a V6 2002 Accord, with no tranny problems.

And, for the Accords the trannys were totally swapped out by Honda with a rebuilt tranny.

I would think a rebuild Accord or Accura tranny from Honda would be about as reliable as any new Honda tranny.

cccompson

One of my staff drives a '99 Accord. He bought it new and it now has about 260K on it, mostly on business. Just this year it needed repairs for the first time (about $700 in suspension work at the dealer). He didn't bat an eye. Your husband shouldn't either.

hpmctorque

I'm not surprised it needs a catalytic converter at 211,000. Why? The one in my wife's '99 Acura TL, a Honda product, went out at 108,000. We also took it to a trusted mechanic because the (yellow) check engine stayed on, and it was due to the converter. Replacing the catalytic converter fixed the engine light. In doing some research I learned that it's not unusual for the converters on TLs to require replacement at around 100,000.

Hondas are known for reliability and longevity, and ours, purchased new, has lived up to the brand's reputation, but apparently not every component delivers above average reliability. In the case of the TL the catalytic converters seem to fail more frequently than the industry average. This is the first car we've had that's needed the converter replaced. All other repairs have been minor, thus far, and the car has 112,000 on the odometer.

Mary36, based on what your mechanic said, and the comments in this discussion, if it were my car, I'd have it repaired and keep driving it. A lot of items, such as tires and batteries, and timing belts, wear out no matter what car you drive, and eventually need to be replaced. Please do us a favor, though, and check back with us in three-six months, to let us know how the Honda is doing.

mary36

Thanks for the thoughts guys.
Just a sidenote though... hubby came home from work today, I went out to the garage and noticed one of his tires had gone flat! We might need to get these tires taken care before anything!

jchan2

I would just keep driving, and when the thing finally goes, just junk the whole car and look for something new.

Either that, or you could trade now for a 2008 TL... I think those are being discounted pretty heavily these days.

If it makes you feel any better, you should be able to at least get another 70K out of that transmission, so you could re-evaluate things at 140K, should you decide to keep on truckin'.

As an insurance policy, I'd keep an eye on deals for cars you're interested in, so if the transmission goes, you're informed and ready to buy.

hprenter

My thought was that if I trade in a fully functional TL with my mileage its worth 7-8k, if I wait till the transmission goes the car isn't worth much if anything. I may lose a few thousand in depreciation expense by trading, but atleast I do not lose the whole trade in value of the car.

euphonium

But, I would substitute a Flowmaster muffler or an economical substitute. The importance of environmental emmissions is over rated & over priced. Tragic is the annual national cost of maintaining emission quality so the hitch hiker is not abused by the fumes of passing vehicles. :mad:

isellhondas

"the 99-03 V6 transmissions in Hondas and Acuras are defective"

Oh, give me a break! SOME of these have caused problems which is very un Honda like. The majority of them have been fine.

Honda went far beyond the call of duty to take care of the people who did have troubles.

jchan2

That's what I'm thinking, as I'm in the same boat with the Odyssey.

Time to get out there and test drive a TL, perhaps?

and isell, Honda did take care of the majority of people, but apparently a lot of people got left out, especially the ones that are just now seeing their transmissions fail. The Honda Odyssey Transmission board is filled w/ those guys...

I feel kinda bad for Honda, though.. They've just been paying through the nose for these transmissions and there seems to be an endless supply of defective 5 speed automatics...

lemmer

It is testament to Honda reliability that people with cars eight years old (presumably with 80-120K on them) feel like they are getting screwed when their transmissions fail. Chrysler, Ford, and GM minivan owners can only dream of getting that far without a major component failure.

jhinsc

But, I would substitute a Flowmaster muffler or an economical substitute. The importance of environmental emmissions is over rated & over priced. Tragic is the annual national cost of maintaining emission quality so the hitch hiker is not abused by the fumes of passing vehicles.
It doesn't matter what your's or anyone else's opinion is about emission controls, you're still breaking the law and can be fined or have your car impounded if caught doing this! :surprise:

23109vc

it's usually always cheaper to fix a car that to buy a new one. add up the costs of repairs... vs the monthly payment.

dont make the mistake of looking at the current $2500-5000 you hae to spend RIGHT NOW to fix yoru car, vs the $450/month payment you will have to buy anew car. it's easy to think the 450 sounds much more affordable... do the long term math.

a 3500 fix NOW but the car will run w/out anymajor issues for another 24 months vs a 450month paymen for 24 months. that 450 becomes double the cost over time...

my solution was to fix up my DD and then buy a small cheaper fun car to enjoy on the side.

euphonium

is 3 or 4 times the cost of repairing the old one, how much do you want to lose?

"Instant Depreciation" is the wap in the wallet as soon as you drive it off the lot. And it happens suddenly.

When you do dump the old one, it is repaired by someone and then driven many more miles, so why not be the driver of the old one after it is repaired?

euphonium

You are 100% correct, however, the odds of being caught are very slim and the performance of the vehicle is more important than psuedo global warming, emmissions, & odor.

In 1980 I bought a new Lincoln Town Car with the 351 V8 and immediately replaced the two catalytic converters with regular mufflers and used leaded fuel until it was no longer available.

If the Environmental Movement had testicular authority, it would require retrofitting of older cars with CC. So, catch me if you can. :P

Mr_Shiftright

Well for one thing you could never sell the car to anyone else. It's your baby forever because if the new owner finds out, he has a pretty good legal club with which to mess you up. And no repair shop should, legally, repair or work on the engine, etc. A car altered in this way for street use becomes a pariah in a sense.

hpmctorque

Also, euphonium, how would you pass the periodic pollution tests that many states have? Does the state in which you live not have pollution tests every year or every other year?

euphonium

I have successfully been able to circumvent such meaningless inspections.

Mr_Shiftright

Careful. Some day YOU might have to live in Los Angeles :P

lemmer

In the south, anything goes. The only time I've ever had a car inspected is when I lived in metro Atlanta. Florida, Mississippi, Alabama - nobody cares what you do to your car (or how bad it pollutes, for that matter).

Mr_Shiftright

Well that'll change as they slowly choke to death. Nothing like actually seeing the degradation to convince you to change your mind. Even the Chinese got the message finally that bad air is bad for business.

Some folks think that cars run better without a catalytic but this is not always the case, especially on the more modern automobiles. Both performance and fuel economy can drop.

lemmer

In Alabama, pollution isn't all that apparent because we are so spread out. In fact, our biggest city, Birmingham, seems positively clean after they clamped down on the steel mills some years ago.

blufz1

Sorry I'm late on this one. You know the Honda you are driving and you do not "know" a random used car,so repair the car you have in the short term. Every car owner should defer current purchase of a car,if possible, because cars(diesel,etc.) getting 40%/50% better mileage than your old used car currently gets are only 2 years away. Defer purchase and you will get a new car that pays for itself in fuel savings or a deal on a greatly depreciated gasser when the much more economical diesels,etc. appear.

kyfdx

Besides.. prevailing winds blow all of that Alabama pollution over to Georgia, Tennessee and South Carolina...