To Fix Up or Trade Up, That is the Question

nelden

ok thank you..will drive more till bumpers fall off..

nelden

thank you.. rest of car in vary good shape for being that old...

Mr_Shiftright

Well our opinions are based strictly on economic point of view. If you really like the car and don't mind having more money in it than it could ever be worth, you can spend what you need to fix it up. A person could possibly justify spending $3,000--$5,000 or so to spiff the car up by saying that if you got another couple of years of use, the investment would be sensible. After all, any decent used car of that size that's clean and runs well has to cost at least $6,000.

The trick with these kinds of decisions is to make sure that the repairs will not be endless; in other words, one has to keep in mind that if you have an old car and "only" this or that is bad, that doesn't nullify the fact that the entire car is old and that each and every component has a lot of miles and use.

oldfarmer50

"...make sure that the repairs are not endless..."

That is the big question in any old car.

From my standpoint, if the car is MY old car I may know what has already broken down and been fixed. If I buy another old car of equal value I don't know what has been repaired or what may be about to go. I like to think of my old car as "The Devil I Know".

In the end, you have to ask, "Can I find another car for the price it will cost me to fix this one?"

richardson

Well our opinions are based strictly on economic point of view. If you really like the car and don't mind having more money in it than it could ever be worth, you can spend what you need to fix it up. A person could possibly justify spending $3,000--$5,000 or so to spiff the car up by saying that if you got another couple of years of use, the investment would be sensible. After all, any decent used car of that size that's clean and runs well has to cost at least $6,000.
I just sold my Mother's 2001 Taurus with 15000 miles for 4000. There are good used cars out there.

hpmctorque

Our Host and Oldfarmer make really excellent points in their respective messages
260 and 261, in that they get to the very heart of what each used car owner/potential seller/prospective buyer must consider. In the end, there's a significant subjective element involved in whether to keep and invest more money/sell it/buy it decision involving an old car, even when the decision is based strictly on economics. The decision only becomes more complex when there's an emotional element, which there often is. Why? Because there's no guaranty with cars that are out of warranty. One can only guess at how long components will last, whether they're original or replaced, because there are just too many variables affecting component longevity. The good news is that the marketplace takes these uncertainties into account. While the uncertainties are factored into the depreciation, the YMMV rule still applies. So, on any individual old car, you may be lucky or unlucky in your keep/sell/buy decision.

I think there are a couple of other factors involved in the hold/sell/buy decision of old cars. One is an individual's risk tolerance. The other is one's thoughts and feelings about beating the odds. These two are related, but also different.

oldfarmer50

"...when there's an emotional element..."

I think you nailed it. We seldom make car expense decisions (including buying) on a strictly economic basis.

My 1997 Chrysler has 104K miles on it. It's due for a timing belt, front struts, tires and several other items. Might cost me a thousand . The cars' value is $1400 according to Edmunds. Not the smartest economic decision except that I may sell it to my kid.

The fact that I want my kid as safe as possible outweighs the money.

Mr_Shiftright

I think for most of us we have to look at "replacement cost" not book value.

For instance, someone asked about how much they should pay for a pristine 1987 Cadillac. Well to find a nice old, super clean, low miles great running domestic luxury sedan might cost you $5,000. But book value on this car is about $1200.

Certainly you wouldn't junk this car if it needed $1,500 in repairs. But if it needed a rebuilt transmission, shocks and tires, well, that's cutting it closer.

e_martin00

I have a 2000 Ford Taurus with 96000 miles. I had some parts replaced recently -- lost braking ability on highway and transmission fluid changed ($774). About 2 wks after services, a transaxle light turned on. Took back to Ford and was told that the torque converter (think that is the name) needed to be replaced. It would cost $700 to remove the transmission (did not include cost to replace torque convertor) to see if that part did need to be replaced and check if anything else needed attention. If anything else needed to be replaced that would be additional. I told them not at this time.

As of today, I was driving my car and a knocking noise started up and kind of a grinding noise when turning/slowing down. I am now at a lost. Shoud I invest the money its going to take to fix ($1000-3000) the car, or should I just use the money on a down payment for another car.

The car has been a good car to me up until now. Best part is its PAID off. Don't really want a car payment.

Your thoughts???

Mr_Shiftright

$1,000? Yes. $3,000, probabbly not. You could just go buy another 2000 Taurus for that, and probably one with fewer miles and fewer, if any, problems.

My reasoning is simple. You cannot buy any decent clean car for $1,000 but you can buy a decent clean well-equipped 2000 Taurus for $3,000==$3.,500, at say an auction or private party sale.

jchan2

If the repair costs less than a $1000, I'd go for it.

$1000 or more, and well, if I were you, I'd be headed off to look for a new car.

solarbeat

My fiance's current car is a 1993 Camry LE V6, 105k miles. It requires a few repairs, and seems to be worth $1600-1700 in fair condition (according to kbb). It needs:

- Transmission flush (~100)
- Replace struts (~600)
- Timing belts and water pump (~600)
- Cracked engine mount (~400)
- CV boot (~400)

The major problem seems to be that the car jolts (transmission slipping?) when it gets to 60mph/4th gear. Aamco says it's the cracked mount that's causing that, but I'm concerned it might be something far more serious with the transmission (not sure why I'm questioning the tranmsission 'experts' though).

Overall, it's a solid car, and sufficient for her 5mi daily commute and occasional highway trips. However, the repairs almost certainly outweigh the car's value.

We're looking at replacing it with a 2009 Camry LE at ~$230/mo (0 down, 36mo/12k lease.. we'd buy, but she has a medical condition that complicates tying up too much money). Of course, we'd keep her old car if we could be assured that the repairs would give it another 50k mi or 3-4yrs, but obviously, nobody can say that.

Any ideas/opinions would be appreciated, as we're on the fence right now. :confuse:

kiawah

For such low mileage, I'd be inclined to fix up instead of committing to 36 months @ 230 plus the increase in insurance costs.

If you get the struts done at the same time as the boots, that would save labor.

qbrozen

I'm with Kiawah. A '93 Camry with 100k miles is still a good car.

Some of your repairs concern me, however. For one, has the tranny ever been flushed before? If not, you may be asking for trouble doing it now on a 15-year-old car.

Engine mount for $400? Well, can't say I've ever replaced an engine mount in a Camry, but in the number of others I've replaced, I can't think of any that took me more than an hour, and that's working with jackstands rather than a lift. Add ~$150 for the part, and you are talking $250 max. CV boot? Again, seems like alot of labor. Oddly enough the struts jive with my research. ~$100 each and ~.5 hours each.

In any case, if you put $2k in it now, where will you be? If you have a good car that lasts you another 10 months, you are coming out ahead compared to the proposed lease.

kyfdx

I'm going to have to disagree here..

Put $2000 into a 15-year-old car? No way... Forget the relatively low mileage.. This car is getting to the point where it could need $500 of repairs every month.. From the list of things it needs now, it seems like maybe the maintenance has been neglected for awhile... That bad motor mount was probably the impetus to see if it's worth fixing the rest of the stuff...

Good car that will last ten more years? How many 1983-1985 Camrys do you see on the road?

The early-mid '90s were the golden age for Toyota and Hondas.... I remember them fondly... until, I actually ride in or drive one... :surprise:

I'm not sure that the lease on the new one is the way to go, either... but, I'd look for some alternative to putting $2K into that old Camry.. It's just too old..

regards,
kyfdx
visting host

jipster

Dump it. Sounds like too many repairs and not enough maintenance.

kyfdx

I must learn to be more concise...

michaellno

IIRC, the '93 was the last year of the 2nd generation Camry. My folks owned a '91 for a number of years and dumped in when it got to about 80K - the engine started to smoke a little on startup. Plus, they wanted one last new car.

Do these require a timing belt? Has it been changed?

I guess I'm with ky on this one - $2K in repairs on a car worth <$2K seems like good money after bad. And there is no guarantee that it won't need more work down the road.

Now, if it were a '94 or later (gen 3), those were over-engineered extensively, and I would think that they would last 200K miles.

Mr_Shiftright

This strikes me as a case of "deferred maintenance", the bill for which has now become due. Nothing really "abnormal" about needing these types of repair at 105K, but it is a bit abnormal that they are all due at once.

I hope fiance realizes that the obligations of taking care of a leased car are much higher than one's own, since one doesnt' own the lease car, but rents it.

Of course, if this has not been her car for very long, then maybe I'm wrong about these observations.

STRATEGY: No one's going to buy the car with the transmission jumping all around anyway, so fix that FIRST and see how the car responds. It's a $400 roll of the dice but you're not going to sell this car for $100 if the transmission sounds like it's fallling out.

If the $400 fixes the transmission (shop around on this price, sounds HIGH) then I think some cheap shocks and repairing one CV boot (shouldn't cost $400 for that either) and a timing belt and water pump should be worth the effort to keep the car.

Probably I'd have the entire car looked over for $100 by a shop before I did anything, to evaluate what else might be going on. If they see for instance 4 worn tires, rusty muffler/catalytic, non-working AC, etc., then I think it's time to bail on this car.

SUMMARY: Inspect first, if okay, then fix the one thing that can sink you, the transmission mount. If trans is still behaving badly, bail out. If trans works great, shop around for economical repairs--you don't have to do them all at once. The struts can wait forever, the CV joint at least until rainy season.

kyfdx

'93 was actually the second year of GEN 3... ('92-'96)..

I still wouldn't drop $2K into it..

michaellno

Oh yeah, huh.

I guess my parents had a '90, then, not a '91. Whatever.

They bought the Camry used at a BMW dealership (dad knows the owner .. why not a 3-series?), and kept it for 6-8 years. They sold it for something like $2600 and bought an '03 Sonata GLS V6 which now has probably 20-25K on it after 5 years.

qbrozen

Good car that will last ten more years?

Dunno if you were referring to my estimate, but I said 10 MONTHS. If $2k gets you 10 months, it makes more economical sense to me than $2300 over those 10 months on a lease.

I go with Shifty. Get it checked out. Get the one repair and see if that fixes the tranny. If so, then hell, I think someone would buy it for $2500.

kyfdx

Ten years, ten months.. same difference..

Ahhh..... I'm not expected to actually read these posts, am I?

solarbeat

Thanks guys... I'm almost afraid to jump in here to say "thank you" for fear of ending the stream of all the great advice you all have taken the time to write up (so any further insight is always great )

She has been more than a bit lax on maintenance for the car, but I haven't really gotten on her case about it. I've read her the riot act on how any new (buy or lease) car would need regular maintenance. Like others have pointed out, it sounds like except for the transmission, most of the issues are wear-and-tear or not otherwise surprising. But Aamco said that it's the mount, and oddly enough, the transmission fluid is still okay (really don't think it's *ever* been flushed/changed). :confuse:

We've been teetering on the fence for a few weeks now, with no real info to push us either way, other than my urge for her to be in the latest/safest car and her urge to not spend all of that money.

Mr_Shiftright

well look at this this way--if she doesn't maintain that lease car to a really high standard, there's going to be hell to pay at the lease's end.

solarbeat

Well, since we're about to get hitched, *I'll* make sure it's meticulously maintained.

michaellno

Well, since we're about to get hitched, *I'll* make sure it's meticulously maintained.

And so another man becomes the 'fleet manager' for his family.

My fleet contains 3 full-time and 3 part-time cars, though 2 of the 3 part-timers are now in the custody of my stepson, who is a 'fleet manager' in training after his recent marriage.

The only good thing for me is that all three of the cars at home are the same make, so I only have one dealer to build a relationship with.

jchan2

I personally think that neither fixing nor leasing is the route to go..
What I would do is dump the car, and then spend money on a nicer newer used car- perhaps a 2000 Camry?

jchan2

I have an Odyssey where Honda paid to have the transmission replaced ( replaced at around 70K ish miles) and I'm currently debating with myself what I should do if the transmission goes out again and Honda doesn't offer to pay for any of it. Do I sink another $4K into a van only worth $9K and has 120,000 miles on the odometer, or do I go ahead and junk it and buy another van?

What do you guys think I should do if the day comes?

dtownfb

You are WAY overdue for the timing belt (and water pump). I would get this done anyway. Plus you would need to have this done to get top dollar . Get another quote on the mount and boot. I bet you can get it done cheaper.

Skip the transmission flush. If the tranny is still troublesome, dump it and buy a used Camry.

dtownfb

Don't expect Honda to pay anything toward another transmission. Not knowing what the model year is, I would dump it. I doubt a van with 120k miles is worth $9k except to the owner. it also depends on what you use the van for. My minivan is the main family transporter and would "invest" in another vehicle at that point. We've actually discussed that we'll look at another van when our current one hits 100k miles. That should be another 3-4 years of payment free living.

srs_49

Here's what I would do (and this opinion differs from those expressed by our hosts).

This assumes that you still basically like and enjoy the car.

I would change out the transmission fluid (no flush) and get the engine mount replaced. You should be able to get both those done for less than $300. If the CV boot is really cracked or broken, get that fixed also, though $400 seems a little steep for that. I've had the entire half-shaft replaced for less than that. So after these repairs, you have $500-$600 in the car.

Wait 6 months or year, then do the struts or the timing belt & water pump. So now you have another $600 into the car. Not bad for another year's worth of use.

6 months or a year after that, do the struts or timing belt/water pump (whatever wasn't done in the previous step).

After this, you've taken care of all the major repairs you mentioned.

The reason behind this approach is that should something unforeseen happens, such as a major repair or the car is totaled in an accident, you really don't have much "recent" money put into the car.

bolivar

If you decide to keep the car, and if you decide to work down the list of maintenance, here is my opinion about the transmission 'flush'.

I would NOT do a 'flush'. First, I think it would cost more than $100. And, a flush might break loose debris which would clog up something and cause more problems. Do have the transmission pan pulled, which will drop out 3 or so quarts of fluid, and replace the filter, and of course add back new fluid. This still might cost up towards the $100 you quoted, but should be all the service the transmission needs. This is assuming repairing the motor mount makes the clunk while shifting go away.

There might be another thought to this whole thing. At 15 years old, no matter what the low milage, this thing can't be worth much. You might consider doing NOTHING. Just drive this thing into the ground, as is. The CV boot is the only thing that might rather quickly disable the car. For this price of $400, I think this would cover a total replacement of the entire drive shaft. Could a mechanic just replace the boot, for a lot less money??? And then just drive it.

jchan2

Well for us, the van is a recreational vehicle we use on the weekends, so lately we've been putting very few miles on it as the miles rack up on our other three cars.

The van's a 2002, and while Honda paid for the transmission once, I highly doubt they'll do it again.

jipster

other than my urge for her to be in the latest/safest car

Bingo. You just answered your own question. Out of all the factors to weigh in this decision, this(safty) should have the most weight. Put the woman you love in the latest/safest and newest car... just think how much she'll show her appreciation that you care enough to give her only the best.

The newer Camry is a lot bigger, heavier, and safer than the 15 year old version. I'm sure the standard safty features far surpass anything that the old beat up Camry has. Now get a going mister!

oldfarmer50

"...if she doesn't maintain that lease car to a really high standard, ther's going to be hell to pay..."

I used to think that too, until I talked to the people over at "Stories From The Sales Frontline". According to some sales people and former lessors they only care about visible body damage. If you didn't change your oil in 36,000 miles they could care less. :sick:

isellhondas

I would take it to either a dealer or a good independant transmission shop to have the transmission checked out. I am not a fan of the chains!

And, I would never let a shop "flush" my transmission. Just changing the fluid and filter (if there is one) is all you need.

Although I like the 4 cyls better for reliability, those were excellent cars and you should get quite a bit more life out of it.

wlbrown9

My thoughts exactly...5-6 oil changes, an air filter should be about it for 36K miles. Perhaps tires at the most if those wear out that quick. Other than that, the body damage is about the only risk. Anything mechanical should be covered for 36/36000 with the factory warranty.

Mr_Shiftright

I have found, personally, a direct correlation between the owner's neglect of the mechanical and the owner's neglect of the cosmetic aspects of a car. If they don't change the oil, they probably won't wash it, they probably then won't care where they park it, they probably eat in it, etc.

kyfdx

Some points (not to be taken personally by the OP)

1) Poorly maintained.. the original list will be just a starting point.. Cough up a tranny or the A/C stops working and the car is junk..

2) Agree with shifty.. probably looks like crap, also..

3) 200K mileage life? Sure, within 15 years.. but, this car is already 15 years old.. it's nearing the end of it's useful life.. Would I pay $2K in repairs, even if it guaranteed me one more year? Nope..

4) Airbags, ABS, etc, etc... This is a real issue..

Time to fix what needs to be fixed, just to make sure it's roadworthy to sell.. If $400 more into it doesn't get $400+ more out of it, then don't do it..

If you can really get a new Camry 36 month lease for $230/mo. with less than $500 out of pocket, then that is a great deal... Not positive that is the best way to go, but this 15 yr.old car needs a new home, and fast...

solarbeat

Thanks kyfdx... yes, it is/was poorly maintained. I know it sounds bad, but I suspect it's because she grew up in a single parent household (just her mom, who's a technophobe), and has been a "it doesn't need to be looked at unless something's broken" kind of gal (it doesn't help that her old car was a terrible crown vic that actually was broken half the time. It looks great though (for a 15yr old car), since I'm a neat freak when it comes to detailing my car (it's a black 08 bmw 335i that is a dirt magnet), and her car gets some of the leftover TLC I give to mine

We were basically going to turn it into the dealer for whatever (very little) they thought it is worth, rather than a private sale. I posted this in the camry pricing thread, but yeah, it's $230/mo 36mo/12k mi, $0 down (=~$950 drive off).

So many great points of view in reply to my original question... informed ones too (rather than the silly back and forth guessing game she and I had been playing). I really appreciate you guys taking the time to reply!

kyfdx

WAAAAAIIIITTTTTT a minute!!!!!

You have a new '08 335I!!!?????

New plan... She drives the Bimmer, and you drive the Camry...

That way... no more discussion... you'll know what to do, soon enough..

hpmctorque

Yearly mileage driven is a significant factor in the economics of car ownership, since depreciation is related to age more than mileage, whereas maintenance and repair is related more to mileage. Therefore, from an economic standpoint, a stronger case can be made for driving an older car if one drives, say, 5,000 miles per year than if one drives 20,000.

qbrozen

it's $230/mo 36mo/12k mi, $0 down (=~$950 drive off).

Hmmmm....
$250 security deposit + $525 bank fee + $230 first month's? Am I warm?
What about doc fee, MV tags, and taxes?

dtownfb

Lots of miles on that 2002. Definitely dump it at 120k. If you use it that infrequently, you may consider selling it now while it is worth something. this all depends if you can live without it.

dtownfb

We love to help people. And that sounds like a great deal on the Camry. I'm not a fan of leasing but if it works for you, go for it!

ronsmith38

What makes you think the transmission will go anytime soon? It Honda fixed it at 70,000 mi, it must have had a known mfg problem. Hopefully they corrected the problem. In any case it should be good for at least 140,000 miles (70K times 2). So you have at least another 20k miles before you need to worry.

jipster

What makes you think the transmission will go anytime soon?

Go look on the "Honda Ody Transmission Problems" discussion and you'll find out.
No knowing on when it will go back out.... could be soon or later.

jchan2

The Honda transmission problems; some have had decent luck with their transmissions, some haven't. If you go read the boards, you'll see a lot of irate Odyssey owners over there...

I'll probably dump the van in about a year or two, when the payments on my Altima get close to wrapping up. At that point, I may not even need a van anymore and might just sell it off to CarMax for whatever they want to buy it for and just be done with it. The van's served us well over the years.

A Nissan dealer in today's paper advertised an interesting deal: Buy a $35K Nissan Quest, get a $15K Nissan Versa for free. It's an interesting offer, but I much prefer the Sienna/Odyssey to the Quest, and now's definitely not a good time to buy as I already have a car payment. (I don't want to have 2 at once)

mary36

We have a 1999 Honda Accord with 211k miles on it.
Been my husband's workhorse car as he travels for his job - puts about 35k miles on it a year (he's the 2nd owner).

It's due for $1500 worth of work (timing belt, etc) PLUS a new set of tires.
I plugged in the stats here on edmunds... with the mileage, this car is worth a little over $1k (trade in value).

We're at a crossroads. Are we crazy to put $1500 into a car worth less than what it's worth?

If we get a new (used) one... what car do you all recommend for a 6'2 tall guy that gets HIGH MPG that isn't over $15k?? (I noticed the best MPG cars are little shoeboxes on wheels. Not too great for a tall, lanky guy!)

mary