To Fix Up or Trade Up, That is the Question

jchan2

I live in Tennessee and we have annual emission checks when we renew our plates- well, at least the 5 counties surrounding greater Nashville...

tatum2

tatum2

I have a 1998 Volvo S-70 GLT and have owned it since new. Now has 160k and
has always been realiable. I have alwaysl been nickled and dimed with this car but 90% of the time it is solid. Runs well, solid and with turbo- fun to drive. I always get mixed messages from repair people. Some swear by it others call it junk.
As this Volvo is optioned out and I have come accustomed to this level of comfort
it would be hard to replace is under $40,000 today. How much is too much when
considering repair vs buying new.

Mr_Shiftright

If you have good records, you might want to add up all your repair & maintenance costs (not gas or insurance) to see what this car has cost you on a per month basis for say the last 2 years. Sometimes people are a bit shocked when they do this.

Once you have this number, you compare that to say the monthly payments on a $40K car, after you've put down as a down payment the selling price of your current Volvo.

Then you decide if the difference in price (one assumes the new car payments will be higher) is worth a) the value of a warranty b) the assurance of reliability (one hopes) and the comfort and safety of a brand new car.

Another thing you might do is to pay your mechanic to make out a list of impending costs. That is, does he see an oil leak here or there, or torn CV boots, or wearing tires or leaky shocks/struts or a noisy turbo? You get what I'm driving at here.

I'd guess if you put $10K down on a 40K car you'd be paying, over 60 months, around $575 a month.

qbrozen

BUT ... as you are now a volvo convert, you would be far better off considering a lightly used one. You could get an S60 2.5T with very low miles for under $20k. And, to top it off, if you go CPO, you will very likely wind up with a longer warranty than a new volvo.

blufz1

O. K. Here's how it is. If you buy a new car for 40k you have just lost 40k! Always buy expensive,low resale cars, used. Inexpensive,high resale value cars,can be bought new. The time value of 40k at 5% is 2k per year. So,you can spend 2k per year on repairs and not lose 40k by keeping your old car and fixing it!!

jchan2

I would figure out what all needs to be done on the car, take that number, and divide by 12 or 24 to see what the monthly cost to keep the car running would be.

Then, compare that with the monthly payments for a clean, CPOed Volvo S40/S60 financed over 2 or 3 years, and see if the difference is worth the upgrade to a newer car. (I'd budget around $20-$22K for a nice 2-3 year old Volvo, depending on the model and trim line)

I'd skip out on the new Volvo unless you really want one because Volvos seem to depreciate a bit quicker than BMWs and Lexuses so they make great used car bargains, especially if they're CPOed.

If I were you, I'd start looking at those CPOed S40s and S60s... They can be quite the bargain.

srs_49

I'm in agreement with those that have suggested you keep the car.

A new one will cost you (roughly) $500-$600/month over 5 years. A used one will set you back half that amount (say, $500/month over 3 years). How much are you spending on repairs to keep it running? $250/month can get you an awful lot of "nickel and dime" repairs.

Heck, I still drive regularly my '87 BMW 325 that has around 190,000 miles on it, and I keep it for the same reason I stated above. Over the past 3 years, I've only paid around $1200 on maintenance and repairs, which comes out to roughly $33/month. Of course, I do almost all the work on it myself which saves mucho bucks verses taking it to the dealer for everything.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think the DIY formula works for most people, however, especially those driving more modern cars than yours. You don't need a $30,000 scanner to diagnose some of the multi-plexing features of your car's integrated computer systems and over 70 microprocessors, because it doesn't have such systems.

It's probably wiser to calculate the cold dark reality that right now most people are paying $75-$125 an hour to get their "old" cars fixed.

the only downside of keeping an old car that can be maintained for less than monthly payments on a new/slightly used one, is that on an old car from the 90s, if some major component fails, the car is essentially totalled. So you do run the risk of losing the vehicle rather instantly.

You might say "well okay, that happens and I got a lot of use out of it" but sometimes these catastrophic failures happen right after you sunk a ton of money into it to keep it running for those illusory "five more years". In fact, darn it, that often happens. And right when you don't have the financial flexibility perhaps to purchase a replacement.

So I think it's good to be an 'automotive realist" which mean, to me, that one recognizes that *statistically* speaking, when a car reaches about 175,000 miles, it is nearing the end of its useful life, and you should start thinking about replacing it.

hpmctorque

Hey, I've got an '87 325 too, with 120,000. We should compare notes.

lemko

...I forget if I mentioned this previously, but I have a 1988 Buick Park Avenue with a CEL glowing on the dashboard. The car runs fine, but looks like heck with very bad paint. The mechanic originally diagnosed the problem as a camshaft sensor. It turns out the camshaft sensor is OK, but a magnet inside the engine that works in conjunction with the sensor fell off inside. The sensor doesn't know that everything is OK, hence the illuminated CEL.

To get at this magnet requires disassembly of the front portion of the engine to the tune of $1,500. That is more than the car is worth. I can let it go, but many places will automatically fail the car for inspection if the CEL is lit, despite the fact I know there is nothing wrong with the car. I'd feel stupid paying some ridiculous amount of money to reattach a ten-cent magnet for a car that is really worth only its salvage value, though this old beater is worth its weight in gold to me.

I would probably replace it with another low-cost beater, but I know my beater is reliable and am familiar with its quirks. I don't know if another one will be as good - the devil you do know versu the one you don't. I'd hate to dump a perfectly serviceable car for something as dumb as a camshaft sensor magnet.

hpmctorque

The next time it's due for inspection, beg and plead, and see if they'll pass it. If they do, you're home free. If not...maybe it's time for the devil you don't know. I hope it passes, since I know how much you like that car.

srs_49

No doubt the equations change when you have to have all the work done by a dealer or private mechanic. Three or four years ago, it cost me ~$300 and a weekend to replace the steering rack that was leaking. It would have been two or three times that if I had someone else do the work.

As to something major failing, well, that's actually what I'm waiting for, because it makes the decision to ditch the car easy. I don't do a lot of work on it at any one time so that I don't have a lot of new money in it at any point in time that will be lost if that happens. There are number of things that need to be done to the car now, including front struts, cleaning or replacing the fuel injectors, transmission and dif fluid change out, etc. I will do one of those jobs every couple of months or so so that I don't have major new bucks in the car should I get broadsided by some joker in a Suburban. If that happens right after I put new shocks on, it's not a big deal. If it happens two months later, I'm ahead of the game.

I also have "extra" vehicles in the stable to drive so, if the car gets totaled or drops the tranny (not likely), I don't have to rush out and buy a new set of wheels that same day. Another factor in my situation is that I'm only 8 miles from work and I am perfectly capably of hoofing it back home should the car die on the way (though that has never happened yet).

Mr_Shiftright

I have a "Three Strike Rule" when it comes to keeping a used car. If it breaks down and leaves me stranded 3 times within a year, despite my repairs, despite my maintenance efforts, and all 3 incidents are unrelated, that's it, the car is outta here.

Flat tires and accidents and my stupidity not included of course.

srs_49

"Three strike rule" - probably a good way to look at it. Though in the case of my 87 BMW, it has never once left me stranded.

In over 40 years of driving, I've had breakdowns 3, maybe 5 times that left me stranded. Our '94 Dodge Caravan threw a serpentine belt once, but we were only 1.5 miles from home. A '63 Rambler cracked the line to the oil filter (which was mounted to a bracket on the engine) which necessitated an unscheduled stay in a motel for the night. My '73 Fiat blew the fuse to the fuel pump once or twice (that was traced to the wiring to the fuel pump being improperly run). Ran out of gas once or twice, but was was always close to home or a gas station when it happened (my stupidity, so really doesn't count as a car problem).

I have found that a lot of things that could break and leave you stranded give some warning that something is about to go. CV joints or wheel bearings growling, engine overheating or running hot, brake noises, that sort of stuff. Now a timing belt is something else,

Mr_Shiftright

Probably what will kill your BMW is a cracked cylinder head someday.

kyfdx

If he has an E30 in good shape otherwise, replacing the head with another one will still be worth it...

Can't say that about too many '80s model cars..

blufz1

Get your state inspection at the dealer. They are looking for work and will,in effect,inspect and write up everything your car needs for the cost of the inspection. It's your call as to whether to do any of the work they come up with.

isellhondas

In my experience, Volvos aren't cars that age well. I don't like to sell them as used cars for the same reason I don't like anything made by Audi.

It just seems like there is always something acting up usually electrical in nature.

that volvo is ten years old with 160,000 miles. One major repair will in effect, total the car. If the transmission go's, a cracked head, air conditioning go's the car won't be worth the price of repairs.

isellhondas

Why not just clip the wire to the CEL or take out the bulb?

That was, the inspection people won't know it!

jimbob1975

I have the same issue with ny car where I am debating whether to keep it or start looking for new or newer with lower mileage. Even at 324,000 miles there isn't anything really wrong with mine and and have replaced some parts on it (bulbs, trim pieces,etc) to try and keep it up for a few more years. At one time I believed that if the repair or upkeep cost more than the value of the car it was not worth getting done. Now, however, I see the upkeep as being less than a car payment; up to a point. If something major did go on it I would definitely look into upgrading no matter how much I like my current car.
BTW, I would not mind driving a used vehicle even if it were an older one, if it were low mileage and had no significant problems as I like to do my own detailing.

kiawah

Heck.... 'low mileage' to you is 100K.

That's great to get 300K plus, what kind of vehicle is it?

jchan2

Speaking of cars that don't age well, I'd add the first 7-Series models w/ iDrive in them... It took BMW a few years to really get the system simplified down to what it is today, and even today it looks confusing to some.

Benzes built during the DaimlerChrysler era also fall under this category, IMO, and so do '04 5-Series models... (first year the 5-Series went to a Bangle design)

Sometimes, some cars are meant to be leased...

cc732

I have a co-worker, (John) who faced the same problem...cam sensor fell off. His mechanic replaced it (after changing the starter and solenoid). It cost about $1500 by the time he was through.
John's justification for the repair was he had just finished restoring the body and interior ($3500) in his '94 GMC pick-up (step-side). With gas here in Ontario,Can. at nearly $5/gal, he loves his truck, and won't part with it.
I think it's a tough call...

isellhondas

That Buick has the 3800 engine and a very robust transmission.

3800's are bulletproof and it probably has a lot of life left in it.

If the car is in otherwise good condition, spending 1500.00 may be worth it.

I would have them replace the timing chain and gears and crank seal while they are "in there".

Might be beater than buying another beater with unknown history.

Mr_Shiftright

I think if he did the labor on the cylinder head himself, and had a local machine shop rebuild a good used head, then maybe, yeah. But if you brought it into a local BMW shop and told them to put a new head on, that would seriously hurt. Of course, if the head cracked due to an overheat (the usual reason), then you'd replace the radiator as well.

Other than that, not much that's going to stop that car--the usual driveshaft bugaboos, cracked air induction boot and pesky leaky heater valves--all that can be dealt with.

But the bottom end is bullet-proof and the ZFs are good Xmissions.

Oh I forgot. All the "blue" on the BMW badges fades after a couple years. :P

hpmctorque

What year, make and model is your car with 324,000 miles?

srs_49

Only 120,000 miles? Mine had 125K on it when I bought it back in 1999! My son was into his second year at college, doing real good, and when the 325 came along for $2500, with all the service records, it was just to good a deal to pass up.

I was never really planning on having the car 9 years later. I figured he would drive it for 3 or 4 years then, get rid of it and buy something newer when he graduated. Well he went on to medical school after undergrad, and kept the BMW for 4 more years. Then, since he was moving out of town, decided he didn't have time (or $$$) to keep up the '87, so we swapped cars. Gave him a '94 Caddy Deville I had come into possession of, and let me have the BMW back. That was about a year and a half ago.

Car still runs pretty good, though it is slower than s--t off the line. Once it gets rolling though, it does OK. Paint is starting to go, and can't decide whether just to let it go completely or get a $500 Earl Schieb pain job that may last 2-4 years.

jon0721

I believe it's always less expensive to fix the car you already have. I would rather spend $5000 on a $2000 car than $25,000 for an $18,000 car (after the wheels roll over the curb) Depreciation is money down the drain that has no return on any level.

Its not about the car's "value" in being fixed. Cars have no "value" a Car with 100K miles is worth spending $6000 on rather than going into debt and paying another $20,000K I have never seen so many vehicles with over 200K on them since I moved to SC. 100K miles is considered "relatively new" here.

People just don't need to buy new cars every 5 years. The want to, but really don't need to and from a financial standpoint it's a loser.

hpmctorque

Does your '87 325 have the 2.7 eta engine or the 2.5? Mine has the former, and although the 2.5 revs higher and has more horsepower, I'm perfectly satisfied with mine. It cruises nicely at well above legal highway speed, and handles well.

Is yours an automatic or a manual?

My car had 102,000 when I bought it, and I've had to spend some money on it. For example, the A/C required a new evaporator, so I converted it to the R-134 refrigerant (or whatever the new refrigerant is called).

I've been told that the valves need to be adjusted periodically. I haven't done this yet. Do you have any thoughts or experience on this?

srs_49

Mine has the 2.7. Like I said, slower than (well, you know what) off the line. Though it still gives me around 25-26 mpg in suburban driving. It's a 5-speed, so that probably helps the gas mileage. Still on the original clutch.

The AC hasn't worked for years. It had a leak when we got it, and with the demise of R-12 refrigerant, it was getting more and more expensive to keep it charged. It was going to cost me around $1000 to replace some of the parts (compressor, drier???) and upgrade it to R-134, so I just passed. Windows work fine 99% of the time. I have other vehicles I can drive if I really decide I need the AC.

Yes, valves do need to be adjusted, though I am not sure exactly how often. I just did mine back in Feb. Took me an afternoon (first time I did it). I already had feeler gauges and wrenches, so all it cost me was the $20 or so for a new valve cover gasket (and, I had adjusted valves on other cars in the past). Only a couple of them actually needed any adjustment. I did not notice any difference in driving before and after.

lemmer

I'd take option "C" and buy a decent used car for $5k rather than dump that much into a $2K junker.

Mr_Shiftright

If you have an 80s German car, the AC, even when working at 100% capacity in tip top shape, is no great shakes. Not worth it unless you live in Arizona or Florida, and then not up to the job even if you do fix it.

lemko

Don't know if this is BS or what, but somebody told me there is a "dye pack" that will break if somebody tampers with the CEL. I guess it's similar to what stores use as a security tag on clothes.

isellhondas

Dye pack?

I think someone is pulling your leg.

carswipe

I think you should try too look for a car mechanic. Maybe it can still be fixed and goes well when you are driving it.

jimbob1975

I apologize for not getting back to you sooner. This is on a 1998 Acura Integra LS (not VTEC), 4speed AT. However, I didn't get there without some component replacements; the most recent being all new cooling system hoses and new shocks. I'm not sure how much longer I will have it; my take on the matter is that if I make the upgrades now rather than just before I sell or trade I will get some if not most of my expenses back. Having said that, the exterior is in very good shape as is the interior (though the interior needs to be deep cleaned very soon).

Unfortunately I do not have any photos of the car that I can post at present, but when I do I will try to put them up.

hemanthh

Hi all,

I have a 97 prelude, which I love dearl, but lately wear and tear has caught up and I have spent some 2k on repairs/replacements. Now, I have major body damage (hood, fender and bumper) and radiator and front brake pads need replacing. The engine is great, mileage is low(85k) and it drives great.

All the new repairs will set me back by another 2k+. Can I trade this in for a certified used honda or other car? Or is it worth spending the money and fixing this 11 year old car?

Any opinions will be truly appreciated!

dtownfb

I would do the repairs and try selling it on your own. Even though gas prices have come down quite a bit, people would jump on a used Prelude with low mileage. It's a great commuter car and gets good gas mileage.

Mr_Shiftright

If the $2K includes the body damage, I'd fix it, but if you're going to spend $2K+ on a totally banged up car, (that is, the $2K doesn't include the body damage) then this doesn't make sense to me at all. I'd just dump it.

This car sounds rather troublesome for the low miles so dtownfb might have the right idea here---fix up the body (a car is worth how it looks, not how it runs) , sell it and get something newer, perhaps with warranty. Sounds like you are like me, a bit tough on a car.

boomchek

What model of Prelude is this? Base, SH? Leather or cloth, 5 speed or auto?

euphonium

Question: Which is less costly, doing the repairs and driving it or the cost and lost value of instant depreciation you endure as you drive the replacement over the used car lot curb??

kapbot

I have a buddy who owns a 1999 Olds Intrigue. It has about 165,000 miles. Aesthetically, the thing looks pretty good, but there are some issues.

I know for sure that all 4 corners need new tires and brake pads (4wheel disk).

Also, it looses coolant.

Anyway, he is going to go back to school and he needs reliable transportation. I recommended that he have the car evaluated by a shop that checks out used cars before purchase so that he can get an evaluation from an expert that has no vested interest in selling the actual repairs to the vehicle.

He has quite a bit of money coming in to draw from, ( CD maturity) so money isn't the biggest issue, but keeping out of it is important.

My suggestion is to repair whatever it takes to make the car safe, put money aside for future repairs, and reinvest or whatever the rest of his savings.

Where do you draw the line? Repair old, but known vehicle, or buy something newer?

My friend is very bright, but not "a car guy". (He refers to an Olds Alero as a sports car)

I want to give him real advise, but the decision is up to him.

P.S. I have the tools to help save him some money for some things...

dtownfb

I own a 2000 Intrigue with 166k miles on it. Mine has the 3.5 L engine.

Midway through the 1999 model year, Olds switched engines from the 3.8L to the 3.5L. The 3.8L engine is an extremely reliable engine with one flaw, intake manifold gasket leak, which I think your friend's car may be experiencing (coolant lose). I would get this fixed ASAP since he is most likely losing coolant into the engine. The repair can be done by any mechanic for $500-$800.

The tires and brakes are safety issues and should be done no matter what. It's a matter of how much he spends on the tires. I purchased 4 tires from BJ Wholesale (Uniroyal Tiger Paw Touring T) for about $400. Not a big fan of Uniroyal but these tires were updated last year. Very impressed with them so far (5000+ miles so far). The cost of the brake job depends if he needs new rotors.

Overall you are talking about $1500 in repair/maintenance, $1000 of this he probably should do anyway (tires & brakes). The big question is the transmission. Right now, his Intrigue will only trade for $1000. He may be able to sell it for $2000 privately if it looks good (mine doesn't). The cost of a rebuilt transmission will cost $2000-$2500.

If his car shifts fine and still gets good gas mileage, I would advise him to do the repairs and save some money for the small things that may pop up (O2 sensor, CKP sensor, ignition switch, etc.). Then if the transmission goes, I would get rid of it.

kapbot

His car does have the 3.8. Thanks for the heads up on the intake manifold.
Do you know if any special tools are needed for the brake job? It has four wheel disk
and antilock. I thought this was something the two of us could handle in the driveway.

Thanks for the reply, $1500 is about what I thought he would have to invest to make the car reliable & safe. He's returning to school and buying another car is the last thing he wants right now, especially since he is unemployed!

Mr_Shiftright

A car is about used up at 165K miles. I'd cap my investment in this car to no more than about $1,000 tops, because these repairs are not going to be the last ones.

And yes, you are very wise to advise him to have the car thoroughly checked out first. The best $150 bucks he ever spent.

If this car were a person, it would be a 70 year old man with a wheeze.

boomchek

I've changed disc brake pads on my other cars before with my father, and it took literally about 15 minutes per wheel as long as the caliper doesn't seize up.

You should be able to do it with a normal set of tools.

dtownfb

While you are at it, you may as well replace the rotors. You can get decent rotors for about $30 a piece. you just got the repair maintenance bill down to $1000.

If other issues pop up, check out the Intrigue forum. Just about all the issues with this car have been addressed there including OBDII codes. I even posted directions on how to change the ignition switch (stole from another forum).

hemanthh

Its the base model. cloth interior, 5 speed. Runs great. Just getting sick of fixing one thing after the other

hemanthh

Good question. Its all paid for and obvioulsy fixing all the known issues and driving is cheaper, but Im wondering if there are other things that will break down in the next year.. Seems like I have the reached the breaking point..

Although the down payment on a new/certified used car would be set me back by much more than the cost of the repairs