To Fix Up or Trade Up, That is the Question

enate1984

175K is commonplace for American cars, however Asian or German cars, when regularly maintained, will go well beyond that. I know several people with Subaru's, Toyota's and Honda's that are well over the 250,000 mile mark. I know a guy with a Subaru that has 360,000 miles on it with no rebuild. My point is, past 100,000 miles an American car's value is quite diminished as you have no way of knowing how well it was maintained and Asian cars are generally around 150,000 miles. I have a 1996 Plymouth Breeze with 171,000 miles on it which I bought two years ago with for $2,300 USD with 142,000 miles on it and it's still ticking, albeit with some oil useage.

Mr_Shiftright

I was talking statistically of course....statistically you will find that foreign cars or domestic cars last 175K....there will be a small percentage that blow up sooner and a small percentage that last longer, but 175K is about all there is. To help support that opinion, one would only have to visit any wrecking yard and look at odometers. You'll hardly find a one over 175K.

So I guess I'm saying you can't establish a reliable life of service estimate with a database of 3, or 5, or even 100.

richardson

In the future you won't be able to go to the wrecking yard and check odometers because they are all becoming lcds.

qbrozen

you can still do it, it will just be a more complicated process.

Bring a battery or portable charger with you. Hopefully there is a key, if not, its time to learn the art of hotwiring.

Mr_Shiftright

Well the Recycling Industry keeps pretty good records on the average age and mileage of junked cars. Right now I think the average junked car in the USA is something roughly around 9.5 to 10 years. So if you figure 15K a year, bingo, that's just under 175K. Of course, some are smash-ups, so the actual mileage of cars just "worn out" would be higher.

I have this "opinion" which I know does disturb a lot of people, which is that any used car for sale with mileage over 200K is, in terms of actual value, worthless. I would never pay much more than junk value for a car like that unless it had been restored top to bottom of course.

lemko

...any vehicle with 100K+ on it is pretty much worthless to me regardless of whether it's a Bentley or a Hyundai.

qbrozen

well, yes, a Bentley or Hyundai over 100k miles is pretty worthless. ;b

euphonium

Today, the higher quality lubricants enable an engine and transmission to last a lot longer than 175,000 miles. Engineering advances have contributed to longer life as well.

There are some parts of the country like MN who salt their roads and the body rusts out sooner than 175,000, but in salt free and dry states, not a problem.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm sure engines are happier now than they've ever been in history but most modern engines are pretty tired at 175K I think, or they've had work done to them. My beater car has 151K and it runs great but it's tired, I can tell. It may "run" to 250K but it could also blow up tomorrow and I wouldn't be a bit surprised.

jipster

Right now I think the average junked car in the USA is something roughly around 9.5 to 10 years. So if you figure 15K a year, bingo, that's just under 175K. Of course, some are smash-ups, so the actual mileage of cars just "worn out" would be higher.

Excluding "smash-ups" I would guess around 15 years.

joel0622

I have a 96 Cougar in my fleet that has 287K miles on it, I have given it to my daughters BF. I can tell that the car is tired and explained that the only way it will last him is if he does this and that. He had it for about 3 weeks and went to have the inspection done to title it in his name and it failed due to 6 different error codes. I told my wife he will probably have it ruined in 6 months.

kyfdx

If he ruins that car in six months.... that's like... losing $50 per month..

Damn kids!! :mad:

:surprise:

jlawrence01

My beater car has 151K and it runs great but it's tired, I can tell. It may "run" to 250K but it could also blow up tomorrow and I wouldn't be a bit surprised.

The real issue is whether you have backup transportation. If you have access to another vehicle or public transportation, I would be very tempted to keep the car forever. After all, the money you save can fund a rental car for a week or two if your car dies.

However, my last beater died on the road between Milwaukee, WI and Rockford, IL on February 6th last year. And the temperature was -7F. After sitting there for 70 minutes waiting for AAA, I decided that it was time for a newer vehicle.

joel0622

About that, the car is pretty clean for what it is. The boy wants to work but could not get a job due to transportation so I figured this would be a nice thing to do for him. Basically the cars value would be based on what it weighs and what scrap is bringing that particular day. But to the kid it is priceless. Leather Seats, Power Sun Roof, V8. He is in heaven and I am really not out anything.

jimbob1975

At present I have a 98 Acura Integra LS with 302K miles. The car runs well and is in great shape except for a few small dings in the body and some wear around the driver's seat. To date I have kept up the car with oil changes, filter changes and the like and wonder if it is still worth keeping up even for major repairs; or if it needs something major should I just give it up.

In addition, would there be a buyer for the vehicle when I trade it in or sell it myself?

jipster

If it ever falters I would sell it yourself. A dealership wouldn't give you much for a car with 300k miles. A major repair? Your call... but most people wouldn't put $3k-$4k for a major repair with a car with mileage approaching that between the earth and mars.

qbrozen

I'm not even sure you could find a private buyer if it needed a major repair. I mean, the car might fetch $500 if everything worked. If someone needs to put $1200 into it, its nothing more than scrapyard fodder.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah I'd agree. Drive it until something major breaks and then just scrap it or sell it for parts. The car doesn't owe you anything at this point.

You also have to consider the safety factor with cars this high up in miles. Structural weaknesses could be lurking. That's a lot of pounding.

kyfdx

300K in ten years!!??

You need to find a girlfriend that lives closer... :surprise:

jipster

Structural weaknesses could be lurking. That's a lot of pounding.

I wouldn't think that structual weakness would be that much of a problem for a car that is only 10 years old, despite the high miles. In terms of safety, I would prefer a 10 year old car with high miles, over say a car that is 15 years old with low miles.
Meaning structual weakness is more a reflection of a cars age than it's mileage.

jimbob1975

In addition, there is no rust so the car is structurally sound, at least in those areas readily visible or accessable. I had it in the shop about a month ago and they did not see a problem on the underside either.

Mr_Shiftright

It's gone a lot further than the engineers ever intended however. If it were mine and I intended to keep it, I'd go through all the suspension parts and brake parts even if they look okay. Something tears loose at 80 mph you're going to be very unhappy.

Karen_S

A reporter seeks to interview owners of cars with more than 100,000 miles on their odometers. Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com today, February 21, 2008, with your daytime contact information and a few sentences about your vehicle.

chamilton_06

I'm in the market for a 08 Nissan Altima 2.5s. I currently have a 95 Honda Accord 2.7 V6 with 150k miles recently broke down. The mechanic "says" the camshaft and crankshaft sensors went bad and the job would cost about $750 to fix. Besides this issue, the car had a strong engine (great acceleration) and was in fair to good condition aside from having only one working power window (electrical problem), broken odometer, broken fuel gauge and small oil leaks which one could consider cosmetic. KBB value for Private Party is $2,985 in fair condition and $1,515 Trade-In value. My question, should I spend the money to fix the car and use it as a trade in for the Altima or scrap the car and cut my losses. I'm worried that a private seller wouldn't buy the car because of those forementioned issues.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm already getting the willies from the mechanic's diagnosis. Now which is it? Both sensors going out simultaneously? Sounds like someone is "shot-gunning" the car and hoping to hit the problem, loaded with 00 from your checkbook.

First off, I'd get another opinion as to the problem. I presume the car just stopped running? A crank sensor is not hard to install, cam sensor more work but still...$750?

Here's what you have to do. You HAVE to get the car running or what you have is worthless....junk value. So that means you have to shop for the lowest price and most accurate diagnosis.

As for fixing the other matters, I'd fix the gas gauge. Nobody will tolerate that in a used car. The other stuff, let it go.

Then I'd spiff the car up, clean it up as best you can---spend the whole day on it if you have to.

If you get it running and fix the gas gauge, you might get $2,000--$2,500 bucks for it. If you don't fix anything, you'll get $300 for it. So you have $1,700--$2,200 to play with.

If you could spend say $350 to make an addition $1,700, sure why not? But if you have to spend $1,500 to make an additional $200, why bother?

qbrozen

shifty's advice is perfect. follow it.

chamilton_06

Great Advice! I too am a bit leary of the findings. I did get the mechanic to give me the following engine codes....

P0335
P0336
P1361
P1362
P1381

He also offered to fix one of my leaks...rear main seal, but its still up to me. Would leaks like the rear main seal, oil pan gasket or valve cover gasket be "show stoppers" for a private seller? None of these leaks drop oil on the pavement, they just build up on the engine.

chamilton_06

Ok. My mechanic from back home feels because those 2 sensors don't go bad at the same time and the engine codes that came back the car only needs a distributor. Does this sound about right?

Mr_Shiftright

Sounds better because the computer will throw that code when the sensor or sensors tell the computer that it is getting an irregular timing signal. So something is up with the timing, yeah, and a distributor might do that. I'm not all that familiar with the system on your car. I'd say fine as long as he pulls the new distributor out if it doesn't change anything.

No I don't think the oil leaks matter. Just clean the bottom at the car wash and be done with it. This is supposed to be a USED car, after all.

cccompson

One caveat - even with the motor running properly, this is not a car that you will be able to trade and get anything. The broken odometer creates two issues - it will have to be sold TMU (true mileage unknown) and, of course, it simply doesn't work. This combined with the broken fuel gauge means a potential buyer is left to guess when to fill up. Accordingly, you're left with selling it on craigslist as a mechanic's special. Being an Accord, it will at least bring something that way.

leon1994

I have a 1994 Q45t with over 200,000 miles on it and it runs like a charm!!

Mr_Shiftright

Valid point with the odometer but I didn't mention that issue because really with an 11 year old car being offered for $2,000 bucks, mileage is pretty irrelevant don't you think?

The car is fully depreciated. If the car had 125K, 150K, or 200K on it, it would probably sell for the same price.

Besides, he probably knows the correct mileage or close to it.

I mean, classic old cars are sold AMU all the time and it doesn't affect their value at all.

cccompson

Old cars are one thing. Daily drivers are another, at least IMHO. And there is a big difference, even on a Honda, whether something's been driven 125K or 200K.

Mr_Shiftright

yeah but it's old, too. I'm skeptical that it makes much difference. Some, a little, maybe.

I mean, how much can you discount a $2,000 car anyway?You can't have 1.5 tons of clean gravel delivered for $2,000 probably.

There comes a point where any basically clean good running Japanese car is worth X and no lower.

I'd say body damage causes way more depreciation than mileage.

Car A: 120,000 miles, bashed in left fender, some rust, one broken window, $2,000

Car B: 195, 000 miles, clean shiny body, nice interior, runs well $2,000.

kapok

My 1998 Olds 88 has 189K on it but has several oil leaks, which will cost around $800 to fix. However, the car really runs strong and has been a very dependable vehicle.

Should I spend the $$ to fix my Olds or buy another car? I have 3 kids in school, so money is very tight. If I do get another car I'm going to have to go with an older car with 80K miles on it or so.

Any advice appreciated.

lemmer

How much oil is it leaking? You can buy a lot of oil for $800.

jipster

I'd either fix it or let it drip away. I had a vehicle that leaked oil for over 3 years, cars driving behind me would spin out of control... hence the name jipster.

kapok

Lemmer and Jipster,
So an oil leak isn't necessarily an indicator that the motor is going to blow or something? As long as I keep the oil topped off, I should be okay? It definitely drips all over the garage floor, which is making a mess, but I can just keep laying down cardboard. Maybe I can get another car in 6 months or a year... I just don't want to wait until the car blows up and then have to buy another car and have to rush it.

jipster

So an oil leak isn't necessarily an indicator that the motor is going to blow or something? As long as I keep the oil topped off, I should be okay?

No, it's not an idicator the motor is going to blow. It means you've got some gaskets or seals with a very small hole in them.

I had a valve cover gasket that leaked on one of my previosly owned car. I just set some cardboard in my driveway or parked in the street. Make sure you don't park in someone else's driveway though... they won't like that.

Some will tell you that if your oil is leaking down on hot exhaut pipes, it presents a fire hazzard. But, I drove mine like that... it would burn off the oil and smoke a little, but never caught fire.

I'd say if the car isn't smoking, then just top off the oil and keep a close eye on the level, and you should be okay.

lemmer

I second jipster's opinion

qbrozen

Some will tell you that if your oil is leaking down on hot exhaut pipes, it presents a fire hazzard. But, I drove mine like that... it would burn off the oil and smoke a little, but never caught fire.

Its odd. I never thought it possible because, like you, my experience was that it would just burn off. Till one day in college when I was standing outside watching a friend try to cure his car (can't remember what it was exactly. it was a very small minivan of some sort). The oil that had leaked out when he changed his valve cover gasket caught fire when he was running the car. We had to throw dirt on it to put it out, as nothing else was readily available.

oldfarmer50

"...cars driving behind me would spin out of control...hence the name jipster..."

Shouldn't your name really be 'slipster'?

jipster

Shouldn't your name really be 'slipster'?

LOL, either one would apply. My father-in-law named me Jipster because I was too cheap to fix that gasket leaking oil. Before getting married, I would drive over to pick up his daughter for a date, and my car would be sitting outside his house smoking like a chimney.

oldfarmer50

"...sitting outside his house smoking like a chimney..."

I can relate to that as my old Ford pick-up has the same problem. Trouble is any repair I do theses days is worth more than the truck.

So I say "Let 'em smoke if they're over 18 years old". Truck is just turning 24.

isellhondas

A car that age with that many miles is going to leak some oil.

You can pay 800.00 and it may still leak a bit.

Sometimes oil pan and valve gasket bolts can be gently tightened a bit to slow things down. be careful if you do this as those bolts can easily snap if overtightened.

That Olds has the 3800 engine which is one of the best engines ever produced so let it drip a bit. do be vigilant about checking your oil as small leaks can sometimes get worse quickly.

nelden

hi i have a 1991 q45 that still starts and runs good.the in side needs sum work inside and parts airbad deployed but body in good shape. Q. is this worth fixing or junk it? thank you..

Mr_Shiftright

Certainly not worth "fixing up" but you could just drive it like it is to get around or sell it to someone cheap, who needs basic transportation. Too bad about the air bag. That's worth more than the entire car. Or yeah, you could part it out.

hpmctorque

How many miles on your Q45? Are you the original owner? If you are, or have owned it for several years, you should have a pretty good idea what condition it's in, and the maximum investment that's justifiable to keep it going.

If it's miles up, it's only worth investing the minimum to keep it going; if it's low mileage, and has been well cared for, aside from the accident that deployed the air bag, you could justify spending something more than the minimum.

How much would it cost to replace the air bag?

jchan2

I would just keep driving it and not worry about it- just getting someone to replace the airbag could cost more than what the car's worth.

You could part it out; the Q45 isn't particularly fuel efficient anyways and the whole prestige factor wears off quickly once someone looks inside of the car. I think you might get more for the engine and such than what the entire car is worth.

Mr_Shiftright

Given general air bag removal costs for older cars, I'm fairly certain that the replacement cost would exceed the retail value of this car in "fair" condition.

I agree, the engine in this car is worth more than the car itself.