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Well done.
I live in Los Angeles, and so much of my driving is spent in stop and go, bumper to bumper traffic, and the shifting gets tiresome under those conditions. Nothing can beat shifting on the open road or even in traffic - if you're moving at moderate speeds.. but stop and go with the stick is just killer.
Seriously, when I moved to Boston last year, I briefly considered trading my Boxster S 6-speed for a 911 tiptronic. But after getting one for a loaner when my car was in for service, I didn't find stop and go traffic to be any less frustrating. Yet the oppotunity to "wind it out" was completely lost.
Do what you want, but the slushbox grass may not be any greener.
Some lifelong manual trans drivers, like us, convert to automatics. Meanwhile I think lifelong automatic drivers going the other way are nonexistent, or nearly so.
the traffic in/around LA is waaaaay worse than boston area traffic.... no comparison. driving a stickshift around metro boston is a pleasure. driving one in LA is brutal and helped to trigger acute flexor tendonitis (keyboard was major cause). it was the heavy-steering-with-left-arm while shifting-with-right that was the partial trigger (left arm tendonitis). after that i understood why baseball pitchers can be disabled for so long by tendonitis, if a computer geek can be disabled for months too. (it took 10 months for a full recovery!)
anyway, it's 13 years later now and thanks to occupational therapy and kinesis-ergo.com keyboard, i'm back to driving stickshift cars: (jetta TDI & pontiac gto/monaro).
speaking of stickshift vs automatic, supposedly the newer many-speed automatics can get better mpg than stickshifts but with the jetta, the 5-spd TDI drivers seem to get much better mpg than the DSG-jetta drivers. and the 6-spd stickshift goat gets better mpg than the auto-goat, no gasguzzler tax for the stickshift model - and 23 mpg on long/80mph cruises, except maybe for a brief stop to do some paperwork with a connecticut state employee.
On the highway, however, I am not aware of any cars that are properly geared in which the manual shouldn't get higher mpg than the automatic. Even the lightest automatics weigh more than manuals (some as much as 80-100 lbs) and even the most efficient torque converters have some additional drive train efficiency loss. SMG's/DSG's eliminate the torque converter, but still weigh more.
If a slushbox or DSG gets better fuel economy on the highway than a manual, either the manual ratios are screwed up, or it was designed for performance. In my 911, top speed (182) is achieved at precisely 7,100 rpms in 6th gear (7,200 redline). That's pretty impressive for "only" 355 horsepower. And I still get 27+ mpg cruising at 75, which is 2+ mpg better than the Tiptronic.
Many manuals now seem to have worse ratio in the top gear than the automatics. I don't know about the DSG or 6 speed, but in my wife's Jetta the choice were 5 speed manual or 6 speed auto. 5th gear in the manual and auto are, I believe, the same, so with the auto you got 6th as extra high overdrive gear.
In the Mazda6 (and, I beleive, also in the Fusion/Milan) the gearing is also such that the manual will run at higher rpm at a given cruising speed. If I undertand the specs correctly, at the same speed the 4 cyl automatic will be at 2670 rpm while the 4 cyl manual is at 3310 rpm, with both in 5th gear (the top gear for both). The mpg is still slightly better in the manual, but how much better would it be with a taller top gear?
This is directly related some of my primary reasons for going to an automatic. No longer get an extra gear with manual, get little to no gain in mpg, and the manual will run at higher rpm when cruising.
It used to be with a manual that I got an extra gear, significantly better mpg, and lower rpm when cruising.
It will be interesting to see what the new EPA mpg tests show in a more realisitic controlled comparison. Not just for this case but for manuals in general...I wonder if the mpg rating advantage will be restored?
My former Honda S2000, rated at only 20/26, would consistently get 30-32 mpg+ on the highway in 6th gear at 75-80 mph running around to 4,000-4,200 rpms (9,000 rpm redline). But if I tried putting it in 6th at 55 or 60, the rpms would be down in the 3,000 range and it would feel sluggish, due to it being well below it's torque peak and I would get worse gas mileage.
Apparantly you can "game" the EPA methodology and get an atificially high mpg rating using a tall gear ratio that might work great on a perfectly flat road with a tailwind, but not in the real world.
just today i was observing that GTO mpg at 60 mph in 5th gear & 2100 rpm was no worse than 6th gear & 1700 rpm. similar results for 40 mph comparing 4th gear & 5th.
btw, why did you unload the S2000, and what did you replace it with , if anything? i've read that those things have to be revved big time to get at their torque. a 9000 rpm redline is incredible to me as a driver of cars with about half that redline - low-end-torque-monsters (TDI and GM-LS2).
On MPG's, some "torque monsters" can get pretty good mileage at lower rpms. I think a Corvette in 6th gear is running around 1,800 rpms at 75, whereas my 911S is running closer to 3,000. Both get 27+/- on the highway.
Personally, I am a high RPM fan. The S2000 was closer to a Formula One car than any normal human will likely experience. If it weren't for the desire to have a back seat and convertible for my wife and daughters on a sunny day, I'd have gone for the 8,400 rpm 911GT3 that just came out. And if money were no object, my next sedan would be a 8,250 rpm BMW M5 6-speed. My childhood friends were GTO, 442, Corvette musclecar fans from the 1960's/1970's. I broke company and aspired to Jaguar, BMW, Ferrari and Porsche.
One thing for sure, having a 7,000-9,000 rpm redline almost mandates a manual transmission to enjoy. In the case of the S2000 and GT3, a manual is your only choice.
Rocky
btw, i noticed today that my 05 goat actually turns 1500 rpm at 60 mph, not 1700 rpm. so it is geared very similarly to the corvette, and with same engine. but the extra weight & increased frontal area of the GTO give it significantly worse highway mpg than the vette. (~23 mpg goat, ~29 mpg vette).
I added rear "Polk audio" speakers in the back to take it from a total of two to four speakers. No faster but it sounded better.
Seriously, no. I'm not much of a "gearhead" and was very happy with the performance of the S2000 right out of the box from the factory. Also, from what I read, the 2.0 liter engine - already producing 120 hp per liter - left little room for improvement in real performance. One of the magazines tested a supercharged S2000 that claimed to have 300 peak horsepower and the improvements in actual 0-60 and 1/4 mile times were minimal (0.1-0.2 seconds each).
If you have a shorter rear gear, does that mean that all of the gears, 1st through 6th, now accelerate more quickly but redline at proportionally lower speeds than before?
I never tested it, but I thought the S2000 hit top speed in 6th at around 8,000 rpm. In the case of my 911S, it hits top speed in 6th within 100 rpm of redline. Would a lower rear gear reduce the top speed due to redline limitations? I'd be very disappointed if I couldn't someday take my 911 to the Bonneville Salt Flats and try 182 mph with the top down.
You basicly got it right there.
Some cars are limited by the gearing to a certain top speed and some just run out of horsepower because of aerodynamic drag.
So your 911 is geared basicly perfectly.(No real surprise there) Any shorter gear would give you slighly more acceleration but sacrafice top speed.
The S2000 could take a slighly shorter final drive and get a little better acceleration without sacrficing top speed because it can't pull all the way to redline in 6th gear anyway.
If you boosted the horsepower of the S2000 up another 50 or 60 hp then maybe you could hit the redline in 6th gear but maybe not.
final= 4.10
1st= 3.133 (12.845 overall reduction)
2nd= 2.045 (8.385)
3rd= 1.481 (6.072)
4th= 1.161 (4.760)
5th= 0.971 (3.981)
6th= 0.811 (3.325)
The stock tires turn about 834.7 revolutions per mile, which at 60 mph gives the following:
4th- 3973 rpm
5th- 3323 rpm
6th- 2775 rpm
Swapping in a 4.77 rear gear gives this result:
4th (5.538)- 4623 rpm
5th (4.632)- 3866 rpm
6th (3.868)- 3229 rpm
The horsepower peak on the original S2000 is 240hp @ 8200 rpm, which would be 177 mph in 6th. Problem is that 240 isn't enough power to get an S2000 to 177, so the car will hit its aero-limited maximum speed somewhere below that. Swapping in a 5.38 rear gear (the shortest that fits the Mazda 7" pumpkin) would knock 6th down to 135 mph @ 8200, but would almost certainly be gear-limited in that setup (it would also pull 3642 rpm at 60 mph).
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
The Prelude was always a showcase for Honda's future technology (hence the name Prelude). The 5th Generation Prelude (1997 - 2001) was available as a base model or Type SH (Super Handling). Type SH models were only available with a 5-speed manual transmission. In addition to slightly sportier shocks and spring rates, different wheels, standard rear spoiler, leather wrapped shift knob, and puddle lamps on the inside doors, the Prelude Type SH featured Honda's ATTS (Active Torque Transfer System). Under hard cornering, ATTS transfers up to 80% of the power to the outside wheel, therefore reducing (or eliminating) understeer. It works pretty seasmlessly and there is no fancy gauge like in the current Acura cars with SH-AWD. Supposedly you really feel the difference between the base and Type SH model at the track.
The only time I wished I didn't have a Prelude Type SH is when I had to replace my clutch at 52,000 miles. The ATTS unit had to be removed and re-installed for the clutch to be worked on. This tacked on an additional 5 hours of labor to the cost
I just hit 77,000 miles on my way home from work tonight. My Prelude is still rock soild and lots of fun to drive (Especially with the Suspension Techniques front and rear sway bars I had installed). It's Milano Red paint shines for a long time after it is washed (and believe me between working 6 days a week and our 13 week old son, it goes a long time between washings). People are suprised when I tell them the car is a 2001 (many ask if it is an '04 or '05). I change the oil every 4K miles with synthetic. I recently (72,000 miles) had a major service performed replacing the H2O pump, timing belt, Timing Belt Tensioner, Valve Cover Gasket, & Iridium Tipped Spark Plugs. The guy who worked on my car told me my Valve cover is so clean underneath that he could take it home and serve Thanksgiving dinner on it.
Did I get everything?
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Couple of things I've noted so far.
1. It is tougher to know what gear you are in since you don't have the shifter to to "feel" what gear you are in. Yes it is displayed on the screen in a tiny font if you're in the right mode, but that part is tougher than a regular manual.
2. My left foot doesn't know what to do with itself.
3. It is nice to be able to dump it into an automatic mode once in awhile, or for the wife who can, but doesn't care to much any more, drive manuals.
4. When it automatic mode, it feels much better than a regular slush-box.
5. It is weird feeling the down shifts in automatic mode when a normal slush box would "coast".
6. The shifter paddles are fun, but can be difficult to use while turning. The shifter nob does have the +/- gate on it as well, and I guess I could learn to use that for during turns, but I prefer the paddles.
7. Shifts a quicker and more correctly rev matches then what I can do with a stick.
8. I do miss having the clutch peddle to help control things.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
LOL
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Nope, not gonna do it.
No way.
No how.
Not happening.
Never go there.
I support my brethren's rights to a third pedal until the end, but the end is here and it's spelled DSG... :shades:
With the DSG, I think you will get more used to the paddles and the floor shifter, but like you said, there is no feedback for what gear you are in other than your butt when your foot goes down.
It sounds like a fun ride. When I get old I will check them out too.
Understanding feedback is merely getting used to the system.
Like I've always maintained, my three-pedal diehard brothers and sisters should have the choice as long as possible, but we're at a threshold here. The most hardcore performance/logistics arguments in favor of retaining a manually operated clutch are being "disappeared" to the point now that the only solid argument left is that it just doesn't feel the same. IMVHO (on this one at least), I met the same kind of attitude when fiberglass and metal were introduced in the ski industry...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
There is no need to reopen this debate, every bit of reasoning has been stated. But as in the case of my employee, his brother in 5 years younger and DSG sounds like magic to him. But he was a much better player at Game boy or Nintendo and the manuals on screen shift just like a DSG or SMT. What "feels" right is only what you learned on or now drive. I am sure a F-16 pilot will tell you fly by wire "feels" right to them.
Think of this one absolute advantage. If you drive a traditional manual and hurt your left foot or leg you have to be relegated to the Wife's Mini-Van. With a DSG at least you can still drive your own car.
Hmm drive something I don't like all the time in-case I get hit by lightening in which case I will have to drive something I really dont like for a short time...
If I had my way, rather than the DSG replacing the manual in the manual/automatic mix that manufacturers make, I'd like to see the DSG replace the automatic. Keep true sticks around and have the DSG replace the automatic. However what I want, and what the market does, are often completely unrelated.
Its a matter of perspective. Your car has to impress you, not me. I loathe driving my mom's car, but she loves it and its comfortable enough to ride in, so what do I care? I didn't mean to be critical of your decision, and you still get to be in the cool club for having a real stick in the garage, as far as I'm concerned.
I am just afraid they are going to take all the sticks away and cars are going to be dull and boring...but then I guess there are always bicycles and motorcycles...
This is yet another reason why GM is very likely to eat Ford's lunch. The Lincoln LS had the domestic lux-sport field to itself for a couple of years, and its move was to eliminate the manual altogether. The CTS is what the LS was supposed to be. Hope it continues to do well.
For me personally, however, I'm in the "once burned, twice shy" mode. I'll never own another domestic vehicle in this class. Lincoln/Ford has poisoned the well, so far as I'm concerned.
Plus, the styling isn't something I care for & it has an inferior interior.
But at least they still offer the manual.
I realize that those who lease couldn't care less (assuming they don't mind the inconvenience of service visits & alternate transportation). I had a single stab at an automatic transmission, and found it acceptable right up until the thing started requiring (very expensive & frequent) maintenance. Coincidentally (or not) two other automatics in the family required total rebuilds at about the same time.
If this DSG thing will go for 100K miles with only a single fluid change & no other maintenance, I might start to get interested.
Let me know.
Doesn't really have anything to do with driving dynamics, but I did think it was interesting to note.
If they'd offered it on the S4 Avant last year, I'd be in debt. Well, deeper in debt, that is. Porsche will add it to the 911 in 08.
Roundel, the publication of the BMWCCA reviewed the new '07 3-series coupe (335i/E-92) in their Jan.'07 issue and loved it so much they did a separate article on the new gearbox.
Three pedal fans need to understand two things about these reviews
1)BMCCA is a very stick-shift oriented group, many of them go back to the glory days of the 2002 and the CS coupes. I can't wait to read the letters next month accusing the editors of treason.
2) The new box, though paddle controlled is not a twin-clutch DSG setup. It's a TC slushbox but apparently it delivers M3-like performance when coupled with the new BMW twin-turbo six.
Perhaps the three-pedal manual has less of a future than I thought.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I don't know about that. I'd still drive a manual transmission even if the same car had better performance with the slushbox or wannabe slushbox (SMG & DSG). Why? Driving a stick is fun, it's an art, it's a skill, and I like it and derive enjoyment from driving a car so configured. Spin it anyway you want, an automatic is still an automatic, and automatics eviscerate a substantial portion of the whole fun factor thing from a car, IMHO. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo