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Oh well, I never really was much of an aficionado of automatic transmissions, Mopar or otherwise. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Manual trans. long term durability \ longevity:
How long will my automatic trans. last?
With a 100,000 mile powertrain warrantee on my GM six speed automatic, I don’t care. I am not leasing, but I guarantee that I will not have this car for over 100,000 miles. ( Card carrying CCBA member. )
Economy:
The manual 6-speed trans that is standard on the Corvette achieves 1 more MPG in both the City and Highway portions of the EPA test compared to the 6-speed automatic. I will gladly give up 1 MPG for the other aspects on my 6 speed automatic. On my 700+ mile drive from near Atlanta to the Florida Gulf Coast & back, my Corvette Coupe averaged 28.31 MPG ( Excel & Trip Computer remarkably similar ) and that was without attempting max. fuel mileage. And it also included a couple of ( ahem ) demonstration acceleration runs – 15 MPH to 95 MPH-ish.
The C6 is certainly not ( only ) geared for economy, but the very wide ratio spread in this trans means first gear provides ( um ) exhilarating acceleration, while the top gear ( deep overdrive ) offers mechanically relaxed and ( relatively ) economical freeway cruising. [[ 80 MPH = approx 1750 RPM. ]]
The Corvette ( I currently drive a 2007 Coupe ) is also one reason that I believe the manual trans. will survive for some time to come. There are many hard core manual trans. Corvette drivers, and history suggests that GM \ Chevy and the Corvette design team will NOT turn their backs on them. The percentage of Corvettes sold with an automatic continues to be much greater than manuals ( 66+% of Coupes and close to 73% of Convertible for MY 2006, no Z06s, obviously ) - and I expect that those percentages will actually continue to increase, though slowly. Yet I predict that it will not achieve 100% - unless or until GM stops producing a manual trans. for the Vette.
Just my opinion.
I could be wrong.
It has happened before. . .
- Ray
Very happy with my MPG – and most every other aspect!
I would rather have a car that I feel connected with the driving experience, and an automatic doesn't provide that for me. I personally can't understand why someone would want a powerful sports car with an automatic transmission. If someone was willing to accept the cramped quarters and harsher ride for the sake of being sporty, I don't understand why they wouldn't want to control all that horsepower. If I just wanted to go fast and have a V8, I would look at the Chrysler sedans.
Rented a VW polo for part of my trip. Was the first time I drove a stick in probably 8 years and loved it. Now I'm trying to resist shopping for a replacement for my Saturn SL2 with an auto...
This is the same Governator that drives a fleet of Hummers that average 9 mpg (but happen to qualify for federal tax write-offs and are exempt from gas guzzler taxes)? :confuse:
Come on, I happen to like Arnold and think he is a no B.S. guy, but perhaps the greenies in Califonia need to get off their 1960's hallucinogenic drugs and face reality with a clearer head. Want to save the earth? Put a double sized gas guzzler tax on 6000+ lb luxury SUV's which California buyers suck up faster than Perrier. And about 2% of which are actually ever put to real off road or SUV use.
As a matter of fact, I have a better idea for California legislators. Pass a law REQUIRING all SUV's to be equiped only with MANUAL transmissions. That would eliminate them from consideration by cell phone addicted soccer moms and third pedal challenged docs, lawyers and entrepreneurs. Put a minivan or hybrid Camry in the hands of the former and a automatic Corvette in the hands of the latter and bingo, you've cut fuel consumption and greenhouse gases by 50%. Bears (and greenies) farting in the woods contribute more to global warming than manual vs. automatic transmissions.
All in (mostly) good humor.
By the way Arnold was looking at a E-85 Hummer.
Because that's what we need, a slower, more underpowered Hummer.
I wonder how many acres of corn are needed per alcohummer? Maybe if everyone in California drove one and the entire US corn crop were used to fuel them that would work out?
My answers are: about 5 acres per hummer (based on 2000 gal) and maybe. 2000 gallons of alcohol per hummer would mean the entire nations corn crop could fuel 14 million of them. I am guessing there are more vehicles than that in california, but perhaps the average vehicle would not be driven enough to use 2000 gallons even if it were a hummer.
I used factors of 140 busels of corn per acre, 2.8 gallons of alcohol per bushel and 10 billion bushels per year of corn produced from: http://www.ethanol.org/FAQs.htm
I'd blame the voters, who elect the politicians, who go along with the proposals made by government agency bosses.
Quote:
At the Hockenheimring we probed the performance limits of
both cars, but they were not what we expected. Having nearly equal power but carrying an extra 250 pounds, the TT seemed to be at a disadvantage. But combined with awd, an extra half-liter of engine displacement, an S-Tronic dual clutch 6-speed transmission and wider tires the TT gets down the road quicker and easier than the Cayman. Try as it might, the Cayman can't keep up. That's saying a lot, as the Cayman is an excellent car to drive with a quick-shifting 6-speed and an engine that pulls willingly, it just can't keep up with the slick-shifting, clutchless manual or the extra torque....
How 'bout them Snapples?
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
You didn't get it? That a AWD DSG could be quicker in a straight line drag race than a RWD 6 speed manual - if you load it up with a 23% larger displacement engine with 20% more torque. Even if it happens to be a chick car like the TT going against the Cayman.
However, andys120 must have missed the rest of the comparison that showed the lighter, smaller engined Cayman obliterated the TT in handling, steering, slalom, etc to the point of embarassment. So, while you can try to hide some of the lipstick covering the TT with more engine muscle, in the end, you still don't have a serious sports car.
Whether it's the Pontiac GTO of the 60's or the 738 ft-lb SL65 today, there will always be some that think the essence of their manliness is stomping on the gas at a stoplight. If they didn't have to turn around at the end, the steering wheel could be optional. But for goodness sake, if you fall in that category, please don't mess up your skirt "drag" racing with a TT. :surprise:
P.S. Audi's DSG does happen to be one of the better units on the market, but if that was the point, it was lost on me.
And this performance differance is related to the Cayman having clutch pedal???
Just as much as the TT's drag racing advantage has anything to do with a DSG.
If anyone wants a better apples to apples comparison, my brother and his (former) fellow Porsche driving instructors have been "unofficially" clocking 2-3+ second better lap times in the 911 Turbo 6-speed than the Tiptronic version. That is in spite of the Tiptronic having a better 0-60 "drag racing" time (due completely to "launch control"). A DSG or even some fast upshifting automatics can give the drag racer an advantage over the manual. But if you have to brag about that, well.... (fill in the blank).
Those lap time differences are significant, and put the 911 turbo Tip barely ahead of the 911S. The future Porsche DSG should show better results, but probably won't overtake the manual. Mind you, these are professionals who know how to drive a stick around a track better than most of us can drink coffee.
My brother has driven the two best "automatic" versions of sports cars by virtue of giving private performance driving lessons in both the 911 Turbo Tiptronic and Ferrari 430 F1. And in neither of those, does the "automatic" version match the manual in performance around a track. My brother even beat the best track times posted by the new 2006 M5 (7 speed SMG) in a 2003 M5 6-speed. And it gives up 105 horsepower. The downshift control (or lack thereof) on virtually all of the production SMG's drive most very good professional drivers nuts, and cost them valuable time in every 2 or 3 gear transition.
If you want to debate limited production, race modified 2.0 liter AWD supercharged and turbocharged WRX's, Escorts and Corollas running up and down Pikes Peak, I'll step aside. Not my cup of tea and of no relevance to my driving habits or ambitions. But I'll be happy to put the keys to my 911S "dog leg" 6 speed driven by my brother against ANYONE driving an unmodified 911S Tiptronic on any track in the country. Your move. :P :P
"If anyone wants a better apples to apples comparison, my brother and his (former) fellow Porsche driving instructors have been "unofficially" clocking 2-3+ second better lap times in the 911 Turbo 6-speed than the Tiptronic version. That is in spite of the Tiptronic having a better 0-60 "drag racing" time (due completely to "launch control"). A DSG or even some fast upshifting automatics can give the drag racer an advantage over the manual."
One scene replayed a 1970's television advertisement for the E-Type V12. Features a very proper, well dressed British 20-something blonde driving an open top convertible through the country roads of England. Flawlessly shifting her own gears the entire way. And from what I could tell, the travel distance on each of the 4 gears was about double that of my short throw 6-speed. No grimices or beads of sweat on her forehead.
For any physically unimpaired guy to claim a modern day manual is "too much work" is pitiful. I would say, go put on your skirt and drive your hybrid minivan to the office - but that would be an insult to the blonde in the ad, my wife, redsoxgirl and even my 8 year old daughter.
I know, LA's rush hour sucks just as much as DC's and a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry isn't exactly the sensation of a V12 Jaguar, but still ... is there any wonder that the 2006 Ford, er Jaguar, XKE isn't likely to be seen on the History Channel in 30 years? It might be "technologically advanced" (and more reliable), but somewhere along the line, with butt massaging seats, retractable cup holders, and a thumb activated Game Boy transmssion, they engineered all of the "passion" right out of it. And isn't passion really what Jaguar was selling in 1972?
The 67 E-Type with the All Synchro gearbox was the best car I ever drove. The '62 I drove with the clunky Moss gearbox wasn't quite so sublime.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I'm pretty sure Jaguar did import the manual V12 convertible. A friend of mine had a 1973 or 1974 model that he bought in the late 1970's and I almost purchased it from him in the mid 1980's. It was the 5.3 liter V12 convertible, with a 4-speed manual. I guess it's remotely possible it was a grey market import, but I didn't think so as it was obviously left hand drive and I thought it was originally sold new by a Pennsylvania Jaguar dealer.
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Audi A3 in the Dec. 4 AutoWeek.
While the A3’s design was met with some indifference, no one was disappointed by its powertrain. The 2.0-liter 200-hp turbocharged four had a wide band that was easily exploited through its six-speed Direct Shift Gearbox. Reader-owners agreed; a typical response came from Rod White of North Las Vegas, Nevada: “The first love of the A3 is engine. The torque and response is great. Second love is the DSG transmission, and this is from a guy who said he would never buy a vehicle with an automatic unless it was a large sedan or truck.”
A few staff members said they’d have preferred a clutch and a stick, but they were clearly in the minority. Living with the DSG for a year has reinforced our impression that, to date, the Volkswagen/Audi group has developed the best of these sequential manual gearboxes. Put the shifter into manual mode and have a go, as would a Formula One driver, via steering-wheel-mounted paddles. Listening to the throttle blip to match engine revs on downshifts is addicting.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
This DSG is great as we manual stick driver can't match engine rev on downshift as good as those DSG.
I'm sorry you can't downshift? Its a skill, just like anything else. No practicing, no learning, no improving.
There are no stick shift cars that automatically rev-match for the gear shift. To me, this would be an unacceptable computer intrusion anyway. Part of the FUN is doing your own rev-matching (when appropriate)!!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Even if we assume Manuals have a place we have to admit that computer can simplify the manual transmission as a tool. Because of the lack of skill the average driver possesses manufacturers have had to add shifting cones in the transmissions to synchronize our shifts. We used to call the synchromesh system we use today as the Porsche system. It drives the gears together by engaging the cone just before the two gears meet allowing the gears to reach the same speed before they are engaged. This has eliminated the need for blipping the throttle and listening for the right time to engage the right gear. That is a talent that most people don’t even realize they no longer have. A computer assisted manual wouldn’t need to be as concerned with the shifting cone because it can read the gear speeds faster than a human can feel them or faster than a shifting cone can bring the second gear up to speed. In effect a computer can return the manual closer to the racing transmission it used to be, we called them crash boxes, by matching the speeds between gears to eliminate the shifting cone or at the very least reducing the need for them.
I know, some people just prefer tradition and hate to see it fade away.
I need to double-clutch my alfa. Its not something I miss when I'm in a car with a more advanced tranny.
This has eliminated the need for blipping the throttle and listening for the right time to engage the right gear.
It has eliminated the need, yes, but has not eliminated the advantage. You can choose to keep doing those things with a modern tranny and gain better performance over those who don't do them.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Realistically, the necessity to rev match in day to day driving with a reasonably modern manual with a syncromesh transmission in good repair is pretty much null. I would say the syncromesh did a lot to improve the usability of the manual transmission as did double and triple cone syncros to make it even easier.
If you are talking about a competitive driving environment, then the parallels with the Ice Hockey and Water Polo analogies apply.
I am not suggesting or advocating manual transmissions for everyone. I agree that most people see a car as an appliance, although as such they aren't going to want to kick down the cash for a psuedo-manual. I don't see the advantage for what you are describing over a slushbox. I personally feel like anytime I spend that much time in a place (in the car) it should be as fun as possible, so I would like a true manual transmission.
Also if we downshift at a reasonable RPM without beeping the gas, will this hurt the transmission?
The sailors prefer the purity & quiet energy of travelling that way. The powerboat crowd just wants to get there, and if it can be done in an ostentatious fashion, so much the better. Lots of powerboats are sold, but the sailboats continue to be available.
Can you guess? I sailed for years & prefer manuals for many of the same reasons, chief of which is that you have to know what you're doing.
On a day to day basis though, I rarely use that technique (come to think of it, I rarely downshift at all). I have had no problems from a transmission when down-shifting.
Actually, there are occasions where I downshift for more power (from 5th to 3rd when passing, or similar) and I will blip the gas but during these times, my foot is already on the gas.
Using your hockey analogy if we replaced the technology in that game with a new technology that made every player a Gretski then every team would switch to that technology. Would it be hard on the traditionalists? Sure but that is how tools work. Look at tennis racquets and golf clubs. The calculator and computer made the slide rule obsolete. Does the slide rule still work today? Yes and it works just as well as it did when I first learned to use one. It doesn’t need batteries and it gives you more connection with math but I never use mine.
I realize you aren’t saying everyone should have a manual. I realize your aren’t saying people that prefer automatics are bad people. Just understand that I am not saying manuals are worthless transmissions. I am simply saying that they have more things going against them than they have going for them. I wonder if they will suffer the same fate as three speed column shifters. I wonder how far below the 10 percent mark can they fall before some manufacturers simply decide they aren’t worth offering. Some seem to think that day will never come. I am simply pointing out how it could happen.
Very few manuals have hydraulics controlling the transmission, and that gets back to the debate of what is a manual. Hydraulic clutches, which are different are pretty ubiquitous now in manual transmission vehicles, I can't remember the last time I drove a car with a linkage clutch.
The shift light is just a suggestion, excepting the 6speed in the Corvette and Camaro that forces you into 4th if you don't romp on it in first. I have actually never had a car with a fuel economy shift light before, but I short shift so much it probably wouldn't affect me.
The fuel cut is at redline to protect the engine. That doesn't mean you can't force the downshift and blow the motor still (ask the M3 guys that missed a downshift and got 2nd instead of 4th).
I think many manufacturers did decide manuals aren't worth offering (GM, DC, Toyota) and I realize in the future I will have limited choices. If car makers continue the trend to homogenize everything, then cars become a commodity like refrigerators and people just buy the cheapest one. If I am going to be miserable in a car, I am going to be very unmotivated to spend a lot of money on it.
I think the reference here is to the hydraulic clutch, not hydraulic shifting. My '65 MGB had such a clutch, so it's not exactly new technology. My '72 Volvo had a cable to actuate the clutch, which promptly broke within a few months of purchase.
Cable clutches are a lot easier for shade-tree mechanics to fix than hydraulic ones. Automakers have made cars harder and harder to work on.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I had to change a clutch hydraulic cylinder last summer. It wasn't particularly challenging. I actually think cars are getting easier to work on, its just the type of maintenance is changing. I have never had to adjust a fuel injection system like a carb, but did have to replace the throttle position sensor on the throttle body (3 screws, 20 minutes).
I believe that pretty much sums up the differences in our opinions here. However, I would ask that you consider starting your posts with the "IMO" acronym so you don't continue to appear stubborn or arrogant in your to those who would not agree with you, as in...
"If we look at vehicles as tools or machines...
...then we would all be driving white Honda Accords or Toyota Camrys. Who could argue that those aren't the best utilitarian "machines" to take you from point a to point b with the utmost of efficiency and reliability.
The vast majority of vehicles that are sold for more than $20k are not simply satisfying a basic transportation need, but have at least some element of emotional appeal and satisfaction. Whether that's luxury for you, sport for me or ego inflation for the next guy, I can't think of any purchase (at least in absolute dollars spent by the average consumer) that goes more towards satisfying secondary and tertiary desires than the automobile. Perhaps houses, but most people view them as "investments".
So, with all due respect, if "efficiency" is your holy grail and that somehow makes you lean to a DSG or SMG over a manual transmission, so be it. I have no interest in "debating" whether that is the right decision for you. But I would ask that you tone down your ego a bit and realize that you haven't discovered some universal truth about the DSG and that it is bound by destiny to take over the world. As we have offered as examples, polyester didn't make wool and cotton obsolete, vinyl siding didn't make stone and stucco obsolete and powerboats didn't make sailboats obsolete.
Back to the Vette, Viper, 911. I could have had any. Or a Ferrari 430. I can honestly see where someone who would pick a Viper or Vette over a 911 or 430 might be inclined to favor a DSG. Those two "American Icons" have all of the precision of a sledgehammer. Everything that makes them good, comes in the form of "quantity" not quality. 7+ liters of displacement, two foot wide tires, etc. For those of us that prefer a scalpel to a sledgehammer, there is no comparison. I'd take my former Honda S2000 again over a Corvette. At the same price.
But guess what, that's just my opinion - and it doesn't need to come in conflict with yours.
Actually...if you consider cost as an additional factor, I think it is pretty hard to beat a 1-2 year old Taurus for ~$10,000. Even against other similar new cars the Camry or Accord come at a premium of ~$2000, or even more, depending on what the current incentives are. So, at least for me, utilitarianism would definitely lead me to somewhere other than Camcord-land.
I was told that wouldn't work for me and I would wind up with 2 impractical manual transmission vehicles.