The Future Of The Manual Transmission

lilengineerboy

BMCCA is a very stick-shift oriented group, many of them go back to the glory days of the 2002 and the CS coupes. I can't wait to read the letters next month accusing the editors of treason.

Why?

stickguy

I'm probably like most stick drivers in that I don't actually race my car (imagine that, a 4 door Accord not being raced!) I do, however, drive it everyday, and get to enjoy the dynamics of a great clutch/shifter combo.

My point is, while the DSG might have better ultimate performance numbers, I probably would never see the difference. I never wind the car out to redline now, so it doesn't matter to me if the 2 pedal model can snap off a power shift quicker than I can.

I did test drive an A3 with that box when they came out. Was fun, but like with any autostick, it was more of a toy that I ended up leaving in D most of the time. Probably because without a clutch pedal, it made me think I was driving my wifes minivan, and I would forget that I had to shift!

The double clutch sounding downshifts though were kind of need, if a bit disconcerting.

seminole_kev

Yep, that is my hope for sticks staying around, that there is that involvement that is missing from an automatic, or even DSG.

I hope that the DSG can be proven reliable over the years and just replace the slush boxes rather than manuals. However I do fear that the availability of the manual will continue to decrease.

Something I'd like to see is a DSG with a stick-like shifter. Maybe no clutch pedal, but at least a "row your own gears" typicall stick interface. I think that would be a little more fun then the paddles or +/- gate. Have some sort of interface to still let it run in auto for people who want to do that, but at least you could physically tell what gear it is in and row 'em. No idea how that would work as it is a sequential setup, but should be no different in function than bumping through the paddles quickly.

habitat1

Several posters have suggested the DSG offers certain performance advantages over a manual transmission. Faster shift times is most often cited, but other advantages as well. Andys120 even quotes the editors of Roundel as gushing over the 335i paddle shifting slushbox.

However, let me point out from both my own experience as well as that of others, some of the very best SMG's/DSG's out there are not necessarily what they are cracked up to be:

- BMW M3: The M3 SMG, revised once or twice, has a nasty habit of hesitating ever so slightly from a dead stop. Makes quick left hand turns in traffic more exciting than my old Nissan Maxima 5-speed. The downshifts are noticably slower and jerkier than the upshifts. So, although 0-60 times might look pretty good, the overall performance is not.

- BMW M5: With all of the hoopla that built up over the new 500hp V10 M5 with a brand new 7-speed SMG, the transmission is a MAJOR dissapointment among BMW enthusiasts. It might seem wonderful to someone who just won the lottery and is deciding between an E55 slushbox and the M5, but for every previous generation M5 owner I've spoken with, ALL are awaiting the 6-speed to turn in their keys. In my test drive, the transmission hesitated on downshifts when I shifted, downshifted when I didn't and generally was a pain in the butt.

- Ferrari 360/430 F1: Supposedly the best in the business. Should be, it costs damn near $15k more than a 6-speed. But once again, other than mid life crises-er's and poseurs who have to double check their spelling of Ferrari, the true enthusiasts I know who have/currently own one strongly prefer the positive crisp action of the 6-speed. And the 6-speed does outperform this greatest of production SMG's on a track.

- 911 Turbo: Holy Cow! The Tiptronic is faster than the 6-speed in 0-60 and the 1/4 mile! Well, yes, if you use the "launch control" feature which enables the twin turbo's to spool up before "takeoff". And, if that's what you would buy a 911 Turbo to brag about, as Mr. T would say, "I pity the fool". The fact is, once again, those that have the driving credentials to do something other than drag race all prefer the 6-speed in the complete control it affords, without having to play computer games.

Now, if none of those above technological marvels is truly an all around better performer than a good old 6-speed manual - at costs of $3,000 to $15,000 - I seriously doubt we are going to see a state of the art unit in a more affordable car anytime soon.

We haven't even gotten into the cost of repairing those puppies when they pee on your garage floor. You think an M3/M5/911 clutch job at $1,000 to $2,500 is a bundle? Check your home equity line. :surprise:

seminole_kev

My GTI supposedly has Launch Control (new for '07) but I haven't tried it yet (still breaking it in).

Sounds pretty neat in use, but I'm not sure how you'd really differentiate yourself at the track (at least 1/4 mile) as it seems like the launches for the same make would be pretty darn identical.

stickguy

A real shift lever. Of course, it will be electoronically controlled, so basically like using one of those arcade driving machines, but they can do wonders these days with technology..

Of course, VW had this in 1970 (I know, just an auto clutch engagement), but I'm sure they could make it work better today.

even better, put in a dummy clutch pedal, so the left foot has something to do. Kind of like one of those playskool drive along toys! Or hook it up to the windshield washer pump.

The best deal would be a real clutch/shifter that could be switched over into auto mode (like putting a plane on autopilot) for when the better half had to drive, or maybe being stuck in traffic.

nippononly

so gratified that every time this topic finds new life here at Edmunds, most of the posters are still strong supporters and advocates for three pedals. If the clutch and stick couldn't even find fans among enthusiasts, I would know its days truly were numbered. Thanks! :-)

I do hope that slushboxes in all forms go away in the next few years, to be replaced by automated manuals like DSG (for performance) and CVTs (for fuel economy/cost reduction). Torque converter automatics just aren't durable enough - they are most often the first major powertrain component to break down and require (expensive) repair. I will be keeping a close eye out to see just how durable today's CVTs and DSGs are in the years to come.

But ignoring that aspect of automatics, the stick is just so much more fun, even in a slow little econobox, and always provides the driver with more immediate control of the engine and by extension the car.

wale_bate1

is not DSG.

BMW fans have been validated in their disdain.

Different animal.

No issue to take, though. A stick is fun. It's what you go through elemetary school mimmicking in class, for which you develop a relationship with the principal. Not that I'd know about that or anything. It's almost instinctive. Granted it's also a skill, Brother Shipo, but let's us just not get carried away; shy of the timed-event world, it's an art in the same way using a toasting fork over coals, as opposed to a toaster, is an art. I doubt seriously if many gear-jammers under $50K could run away from me, in the canyon, in my current squishy Toyota 5-speed manu-slush-o-matic (yecchh). Lateral acceleration is king, says I.

With real DSG, the tech is at the point where the line is blurred and reason no longer plays the major role in the selection process. We are now, and even moreso in the future, down to mostly emotion; nostalgic sentiment at the forefront.

I'm not opposed to emotion in the least, as a good 95% of the car-selection process is no more than that...

lilengineerboy

Nippononly,
I don't see Edmunds as a forum of enthusiasts...it is more a forum of consumers. Most enthusiasts post on the site hosted by their particular make and model (there are 3 Subaru boards I can think of off the top of my head, and even a Contour one).
I was reminded of this every time I was in the mid-sized sedan forum on edmunds. This is a place for people who like to talk about cars as opposed to automotive enthusiasts.
On the Subie and BMW boards there are a lot more manual transmission people. This site isn't totally representative of the population on the whole.

nippononly

Well, I would say you have to have SOME level of enthusiasm for cars and your car in particular just to go to the trouble of posting reflections on it and the industry on an internet website. But you are right, Edmunds is not hardcore like many of the model-dedicated websites are. The posters are more interested in cars than the vast majority of the buying public though.

nvbanker

I have no qualms with that - IMO, the manual still has a place in pure sports cars - but I see no need for them in pickups any longer, or economy cars. Surely, a good 5 or 6 speed automatic is more economical these days, so using the old 5 speed in your Yaris is unnecessary, isn't it?

nippononly

NEVER! :-)

lilengineerboy

It makes a boring car fun. What else are you going to do in a small car? The ride is too busy to drink hot coffee, to loud to talk on the phone, and doesn't have 40000 buttons like a luxury car. Hmm might as well drive it or something.
Its not just about economy although I still think that a stick driven the way most people drive is more economical than an automatic the way most people drive.

seminole_kev

The great (!) thing about a manual in a small car (especially a small engined one) is that you can immedietly tell the engine what to do. A traditional slushbox (especially in this price range) doesn't always do what you want it to do, and typically not in the time frame you want. Especially in a small car a manual can make a world of difference.

wale_bate1

This is absolutely true about a traditional slushbox in a small displacement ride. Nothing is less satisfying than a typical automatic attached to an econo-plant. That's just maddening...

bumpy

but I see no need for them in pickups any longer

Why not? Pickups that are actually used as trucks do need them.

econoboxjockey

I bought a new car last year. Here were my requirements:

1) Engine of at least 200 hp.
2) Four doors, room for four adults.
3) Out-the-door price of under $30K.
4) Manual transmission.

It was kind of depressing to realize how many manufacturers didn't even warrant a test drive because they didn't bother to offer a manual transmission along with a 200-hp engine. Among the cars I might have considered but eliminated because they didn't offer one: Toyota Camry (only available on 4-cylinder models), Hyundai Sonata, Dodge Charger, Chrysler 300, Chevy Malibu and Impala, Mazda 6, and the Ford Fusion.

Even worse was the way some companies chose to offer manuals. I could get one in the 2006 Nissan Altima 3.5 SE...but I had to give up side airbags in the process, because they were only available as part of an optional "safety package" that also included traction control, which was only available with the auto. I think they've fixed that on the '07 Altima, but at the time, I thought "Stupid, stupid, stupid." I could have gotten both on the Altima SE-R, but I'm 40 years old and had no desire to saddle myself in a boy-racer with an overly stiff suspension (this same factor eliminated the Mazdaspeed 6 from contention).

Finally, it took the patience of Buddha to actually wait around for local dealers to get in examples of manual cars for test drives. I waited over two months for Honda to get in a 6-speed manual V6 Accord, and nearly as long to test the Pontiac G6 GTP.

The only dealers who had manuals on the lot ready to test drive were Volkswagen, who had a Jetta GLI with a six-speed, Subaru, who had a Legacy GT with a five-speed, and Mazda, who had a Mazdaspeed 6 on the lot. The others, I had to wait for stock to arrive, or drive some distance to another town. I had to go to three different Acura dealers before I could test drive a TSX with a six-speed.

Ultimately, my local Honda dealer got in a six-speed manual Accord, and that's what I wound up buying. It tests out MUCH quicker than the automatic, and should also have much greater long-term reliability. More importantly, I feel a much greater sense of "connectedness" to the car and the road.

In a world where manufacturers are trying to cram more stuff into cars that isolate drivers from the driving experience (Bluetooth, iPod connectors, navigation systems), it is nice to know that a few companies are still catering to us dinosaurs who like to select our own engine speed, instead of having a computer interpret our actions on the throttle and selecting a gear for us.

If I ever moved to a major urban area where I had to fight through rush-hour traffic everyday, then I might change my tune, but for now, nothing beats going down a nice, curvy road while working a quality six-speed manual transmission. It is possible that devices like DSG could bridge the best features of both automatic and manual, but for now, it's an expensive option with an unproven track record in terms of reliability.

stickguy

I agree that a manual is more important in small economy cars. An AT absolutely sucks the life out of them. A CVT is better, but still blunts performance. Especially when you need to wring themost out of the powertrain, and being in the right gear at the right time is key.

In some cars, an AT is actually better suited. Full sized luxo cars, big SUVs, minivans (although I still want a 6 speed odyssey Type R), full size PUs for the most part. Just better suited to their design and mission.

I could tolerate something like a Yaris/Xa for around town use, but only in a stick. An AT in one of these makes them practically unusable, if not a death ride!

But, If I needed a Tahoe for some reason, I wouldn't have a problem with the slushbox, if they even gave you a choice.

stickguy

Not sure why you eliminated the mazda. You can get a V6 5 speed non-speed 6 which meets your criteria.

You do point out a couple of key facts. While there are quite a few choices, it can be either hard to find one in stock, or you have to make too many compromises.

One of my must haves is a moonroof (nearly everything else is negotiable). So, while the new Passat looked interesting, if you wanted any goodies (including the roof) on a 2.0T, it was auto only. Sonata was the same thing.

Sube wasn't hard to find a stick, and they come loaded. Same at Acura, although they are in short supply. Honda dealers usually have a couple of stick Accords floating around (I ended up with a leftover 4 cyl EX-L). VW usually has some Jettas, and at least they come loaded.

wale_bate1

It isn't just small cars, IMO. A small displacement plant married to a basic slushbox in a midsize is even more of a horror. For those of us who rent frequently, this is more than just anecdotal!

However, DSG may well be the cure for that. Since it is a true clutch drive, the ills of a torque converter working with no torque simply aren't there, and since it is a dual-clutch, there is zero hesitiation in gear selection or application.

A manual in a Tahoe, I agree, would be pointless.

stickguy

I focused on small cars, but mid size 4 cyls like my Accord are really transformed by a stick. I just hate the sound and feel of the 4 banger winding up and shifting with the slushbox.

Plus, you end up with race/lug, race/lug on the engine, since they shift up too early, then finally slam down when it is almost too late and rev like heck to catch up.

meateater

Good luck when resale time comes and nobody wants it.

seminole_kev

"Good luck when resale time comes and nobody wants it. "

I will admit that has always been a downside when it came to moving onto a different car. Certain cars are worth more with a stick, but most of them are not. It can be a little frustrating.

lilengineerboy

I think this might depend where you live. I have never had a problem unloading a manual transmission car. My last stick was worth $500 less than the automatic after 10 years, but it was originally about $1200 less than the automatic. It went in the ad on a Thursday it sold that Saturday.

qbrozen

i'm not even sure if it depends much on location. $500-$1k is just about right for the hit a manual tranny takes at resale or trade-in time. Like you said, it usually costs at least that much when new, so its really no loss (and sometimes an advantage since its one less option to get hit with depreciation on). BUT, what it does do is reduce the number of buyers if you are trying to sell it yourself.

There are some where it hurts more to have a manual, though. I'm thinking of my Accord in particular. I saved no money getting the 6-speed. If I were to trade it in, having the manual still takes a hit.

wale_bate1

wouldn't let the drop-in-the-bucket resale difference shy me from what I want, either way.

For me, the valet implications seem a bigger deal...

seminole_kev

me no likey valet parking.

wale_bate1

Agreed!

stickguy

I avoid Valet parking like the plauge. It is bad enough that service people at the dealship get to drive it.

If I go into the city, I only use self park/lock places. Even with the minivan (at of course) I'm not letting those animals into my car!

wale_bate1

That's where I get the valet treatment. If I'm driving, nine of ten it's not an occassion where I'm going to ask my guest(s) to wait while I find a spot, and/or walk from a lot, so the running-boyz get to drive...

dino001

is torque converter. Practically eliminates natural coasting under engine slowdown. Reduces the road feel to steering response and even that is sometimes not so great. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it...

If things like DSGs get more popular, I may switch "willingly", as the clutch pedal aspect is not really that important to me. Just the shifting point control and road feel.

stickguy

That's odd. Our Wendy's doesn't have valet parking, just a drive through. Unless it is your Olive Garden?

wale_bate1

Oh, they have it, Stick, you apparently just don't have the "Make Mine A Frosty" or "Dave Forever" sticker on your windshield like I do...

andys120

I quite agree that the TC is the worst thing about A/Ts but they're getting better what with lockups and manumatic setups. I live in a hilly area and often downshift using the sequential feature on the Steptronic while descending hills.

trispec

Mazda RX-8 AT with 6 Speed paddle shifters. Meets ALL of your qualifications. Sticks are going away for sure, but paddle shifting is truly awesome. Just did a 2000 mile road trip from Boston to the mountains of N.C. Paddle shifting the curves of the Blue Ridge Parkway can not possibly be better than with paddles. My tranny shifts perfectly every time in less than one ten of a second.

lilengineerboy

Thats cool I'm glad you enjoyed your ride. I just feel better shifting with a real stick shift and a clutch. I grew up in the mountians of the central coast of California so I know what you mean about enjoying a nice mountain drive.

habitat1

Sticks are going away for sure, but paddle shifting is truly awesome.

We clearly have different definitions of "awesome". And no offense, but the Mazda RX-8 is about the worst example of a paddle shifted slushbox you could give. From Edmunds review of the manual RX-8:

Measured acceleration is mildly disappointing for a sports car; in our tests, a manual-equipped RX-8 took 7.0 seconds to reach 60 mph and 15.4 seconds for the quarter-mile. Although the manual version is rated at 18 city and 24 highway, we averaged just shy of 18 mpg in our long-term RX-8

I'd hate to see what they would say about the automatic. It costs $700 more and the engine rating drops by 20 horsepower. From tests I've seen, the RX-8 auto is in the 8+ second range 0-60, about on par with most SUV's. The fuel economy in the RX-8 is already well below that of a 355hp/295ft-lb 911S6-speed (19/26). Adding a torque converter can't help that.

I have no doubt you had a wonderful time driving the Blue Ridge Parkway in your RX-8. But I would bet that what you mistook for the fun of paddle shifting was really the RX-8's excellent handling. I suspect 99% of sports car drivers would have had even more fun in a 6-speed manual that also gave you 20 more horsepower.

lilengineerboy

Apparently VW has re-introduced the manual transmission on the Passat wagon. It is available only on a sold order basis in any 2.0t configuration.

wale_bate1

A manu-matic with a TC is not any substitute for a manual in straight line acceleration. The advantage over a regular automatic is gear selection and application. And given the right set of circumstances, like a brisk jaunt through the hills, it is a huge advantage over a standard automatic, and frankly approaches the benefits of a manual in some regard.

A DSG is a different animal. The shifts are quicker than a manual, and there is zero loss of torque application at any time during the shift. There is also zero penalty in economy. Assuming you are in manual mode, it essentially is a manual without any need to depress a clutch pedal.

andys120

A manu-matic with a TC is not any substitute for a manual in straight line acceleration.

That's what I'd have said until I read the aforementioned review in Roundel. Naturally I have plans to borrow a 335i and find out for myself. Then there's the Tiptronic 911/997 Turbo....

Otherwise I agree w your assesments.

wale_bate1

D'oh!

Exceptions duly noted and acknowledged. When the 911 goes DSG in 08, I think the Andy garage will need a tennant change.

elias

i strongly prefer the 5-spd manual shift in my TDI jetta compared to spouse's beetle TDI DSG. (both 2006). and the 5-spd delivers 10% better mpg, despite my MUCH heavier foot - way beyond leadfoot - i have neutron-star-foot.
maybe the DSG vs 5-spd mpg difference is due to the poor drag coefficient for the beetle rather than the DSG transmission though. the DSG has taller top gear.
but as a wise person near here astutely pointed out, the most efficient operation is not necessarily in top gear at all highway speeds. similarly, top speed is not always achieved in top gear for all vehicles, fwiw.

v_lad

there are other problems with paddle shifters:
1) when you brake, they usually downshift automatically and I loose track of current gear (have to look it up on display)
2) shifting from 6th to 4th requires 2 taps = more time
3) no easy way to set it into neutral to coast (upshifting from 3rd to 6th and back is not easy)

(and I don't want to use full-auto mode, cause I have yet to see an auto tranny that can guess witch gear I want to be in - every one I've drivven wants to downshit a lot, while I want just to go fullthrottle in current gear and keep RPMs low)

I'd prefer an automatic with manual shifter (and no clutch) that allows you to directly select a gear and gives you more control than just +- buttons.

wale_bate1

Really need to keep it apples to apples.

Audi's numbers for the A3 2.0T are:

6M) 0-60 6.7sec
City 24
Highway 32
Combined 27

DSG) 0-60 6.7sec
City 25
Highway 31
Combined 28

Estimated range on a 14.5g tank: 348 manual/363 DSG

Last year's Road & Track (or C&D), IIRC, actually recorded a .1 or.2 sec advantage to 60mph in the DSG on the track, but that's not in the Audi numbers this year, nor does it really matter, I think.

One slick trick, says I...

qbrozen

If it wasn't an extra $1k (or is it $1200?), I'd find it a much more compelling option.

wale_bate1

Valid point.

rayainsw

“Biggest problem with auto for me is torque converter. Practically eliminates natural coasting under engine slowdown.”

I am somewhat confused by what you are trying to say in this statement.

Are you saying that you want to keep the feel of a manual trans. ( clutch still engaged ) providing engine braking on closed throttle?

Or that you want to keep the effect that is provided by pressing in the clutch ( and possibly selecting neutral ) and “coasting”?

Some more modern automatics can be calibrated to provide action ( and a feeling ) more akin to what one experiences with a manual trans. ( The six speed automatic in my GM, for example – 6L80 in a C6 Corvette. )

One illustration: the TCC lockup algorithm is [[ much, much ]] more aggressive than in any other automatic equipped car I have driven. Providing much more of a ‘direct drive’ feel both in acceleration & deceleration. This likely also reduces heat generation & enhances trans. life. ( 5 year, 100,000 mile powertrain warrantee, thanks! )

It is not a DSG, but works for me . . .
- Ray
Reasonably happy automatic driver . . .

wale_bate1

I assumed he meant clutch coasting.

Compression breaking happens with even the soggiest of ATs...

shipo

"Compression breaking (braking?) happens with even the soggiest of ATs..."

Errr, well, not really. The 4-Speed AT in the DC line of MiniVans effectively decouple when going down hill. The only time these vehicles compression brake is while operating under cruise control and when descending a hill steep enough to cause the vehicle to want to accelerate to a couple of MPHs (not sure the actual number) beyond the set speed. Then and only then will the vehicle engage the torque converter enough to use compression braking.

Best Regards,
Shipo

kyfdx

The 328Xi loaner that I had last week was really strange.. The transmission (automatic) down-shifted as I slowed, even when coasting to a red light. Almost evenly.. every 10 mph or so, down another gear...

Considering the lousy throttle response from a dead stop, it seemed strange that it acted so aggressively (only way I can describe it) while coasting..