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Her father tried to teach her before me and so did her brother.
:sick:
As far as advice for spouses concerned about having a stick, I would say you get used to it pretty fast after driving every day for a while. My mom has a brief learning curve every time she jumps into my dad's or my car, but then she is fine. The attentional demand is pretty low after driving it for a while, and I recall from my youth it doesn't interfere with the ability to whack small children in the back seat who pick fights with siblings.
regards,
kyfdx
(not the host here)
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Pretty significant insight here, I'm thinkin'. Taking advice from abused children? Pretty dicey... :P
Then you shouldn't feel a pang of guilt when you buy that S2000, Porsche or similar fun in the sun sports car and drive it all yourself.
But seriously, I'm not sure why the "can't" label gets used by or thrown mostly at women. This isn't surgery. Which, by the way, a lot of woman can do just as good as men.
I'm coaching basketball to a team of ten 3rd grade girls. One of whom started out with less ability to dribble a basketball than my daughter could have dribbled a bowling ball. After weekly 1 hour practices starting in December, the girls are now 4-0 and that aforementioned player made her first basket last week. Damn near brought tears to my eyes. It has little to do with my coaching ability. The girls just have a great attitude, try hard and want to learn.
Wives that "can't" learn? That sounds like a cop out that is, frankly, an insult to the female gender. Now if they - or their husbands - don't want to drive a stick for personal preference reasons, fine. But "can't" learn - I don't buy it. Neither do my 3rd graders. Thank god.
Preference. My wife and I can drive manuals and have and may do so again. Neither one of us chooses to now. I don't sweat the missing pedal. The idea that truly spirited driving requires a third pedal or must even completely forego a torque converter is utter nonsense.
I don't buy it.
But seriously, I'm not sure why the "can't" label gets used by or thrown mostly at women. This isn't surgery. Which, by the way, a lot of woman can do just as good as men.
She just gets frustrated too easily and will get upset and then not want to try anymore. I did actually get her shifting gears and starting out on level ground ok. I couldn't get her to start out on a hill or to press in the clutch when she comes to a stop. I managed to accomplish more then her father and brother did.
I think women surgeons in general would do better then men as they would typically have smaller hands and fingers. That is a serious advantage in a lot of surgeries. At least that is what my Ex-GF who was pre-med when I was dating her told me.
I consider myself to be a pretty good trainer/coach. I coached swimming for a while and I worked in a training capacity for both hourly and management employees at UPS. I was even using a car with a very forgiving clutch my MINI Cooper S. It is very hard to stall out that car and with appropriate application of throttle you can even start out in second gear from a dead stop.
When I get another stick shift car I will try teaching her again and see if I can get past the lack of patience
her is a joke i heard from my bil; 'what is the difference between god and a surgeon? god knows he's not a surgeon'.
In the midst of all this, I've rented numerous diesels in Europe w/ manuals & loved the return to the way "it used to be," only better. Gotta love that low-end torque w/ Rudolph's motors.
I would be able to agree with that statment if you allow me to surgically insert the word "doesn't" before "requires" and cut off its "s". What kind of "truly spirited" driving do you do with a mushy automatic shifting away when it wants? As I see it, an automatic is what you get when "spirited driving" or just positive control and feedback are less important than daydreaming and coffee drinking on your way to the office.
Regarding the gender issue, I have found a distinct correlation among my friends and associates that are physically fit, athletic and self confident (not cocky, just "leader" qualities) and who drive manual transmissions vs. those who do not display, to the same degree, those attributes and drive automatics. Not 100% correlation, but pretty high. This is amoung primarily 25 to 40 year old males and females, mostly single or married w/o kids. I'm sure the correlation goes down after marriage and kids, as there aren't too many vehicles that even the most athletic soccer mom can drive with a 6-speed manual.
I'm a math major and MBA, not a psychologist, but I have to believe that correlation is related to certain types of people preferring precision and control more than others. Some of the best SMGs/DSG's offer interesting alternatives, but a torque converter automatic is on the opposite end of the spectrum. And suggesting you can enjoy "spirited driving" with one would be comparable to suggesting Tiger Woods would enjoy a competitive round of golf played from the ladies tees on a municipal course.
Agreed that a typical old slushbox with no input hunting gears instead of being told which one to use is antithetic to spirited driving, but even a cheap manumatic like the Mitsu-DCX Auto-Stick (not bad at all), not to mention one with a little firmer pressure-gating like the Steptronic, offer significant control in selecting and holding gears through varied terrain and circumstance. They work for that. You are not going to blaze through gears from a standing start as fast as a manual, but in my experience, that has little to do with spirited driving, but rather belongs to the realm of stop light racing, which is reserved for Neanderthals anyway.
Is it exactly as precise as a manual? No, and short of the track, it doesn't have to be either. I read the whining about a manumatic not being able to execute a 2-4 as fast as a manual; so what? The same is not true of a 4-2 or a 5-3 in any manumatic I've driven, unless you're out of the rev-limiter's range anyway!
But when we talk DSG, the only difference is the lack of the third pedal and a stick. No difference in control, and it can make the shifts faster than you can, even if you want to skip, EOS.
What this really comes down to is what you're used to and what you're willing to try.
I commute through hilly canyon on a fairly clear two-lane daily, and even with the nasty ol' Toyota slush-o-manu-matic in my little IS300 wagon (the only way it came equipped BTW), I can pretty easily lose most gear-jammers that care to tail me, shy of perhaps an M3. Errr, not that I ever do that sort of thing.
I guarantee the M3 wasn't advantaged by its third pedal. Guarantee it. Gear selection for those purposes is plenty crisp, and it holds what I tell it to hold when I tell it to hold.
So bad mouth some funky old three speed Dodge box all you want, or a typical baseline GM four speed gooey, and I'll go there with you, but reality is, after having driven darn near everything that shifts in a passenger car, a third pedal isn't necessary to drive, play with, enjoy, thrash or even race a car effectively. And don't bring up you aunt's minivan or your niece's SUV either; this isn't about haulers.
I still support any and all who want the third pedal; I've enjoyed it too, but this notion that all "real" driving starts and stops with the left foot is just plain foolishness, with a big ol' shot of stubborn on the side...
[/rant]
It's not always about speed.
Sometimes it's about finesse.
That said, in my "thrifty" world, it is absolutely always about cost of repair or replacement.
IMHO where a driver learns how to operate a manual transmission has a big influence on success. If their intro takes place in traffic or with other cars around the likelihood of failure increases, simply because small errors attract loud responses from other cars.
But if the newbie is taken to an open area with no traffic to practice starts, shifts and stops, the chances of building confidence increase. Once you're underway, driving a standard is easy. It's the starting and stopping that require a modicum of skill.
My suggestions for ideal locale: the parking lot of a major employer on a weekend or a church parking lot on a weekday. The latter also encourages the instructor to remember the Golden Rule.
Important part of basic training -- The clutch isn't a foot rest.
For a living, I design stores, and on the side I design houses and gardens. When I was trained, I took drafting courses. There were no electronic devices involved in my training. At the time, AutoDesk was just getting ready to release its very first AutoCAD product, which required a very advanced 286 processor, and Bentley (MicroStation) was IIRC still in development. No respected professionals yet acknowledged their existence.
I know how to create the most beautiful drawings you've ever seen in pencil on bond, or ink on vellum, with line weights and styles applied with precision, and composition well thought out before ever pencil hit paper. I can translate 2D to one, two or three point perspective without even thinking about it. I have skills.
Increasingly insignificant skills. Reality is that the tools available to me, regardless of my abilities to use more romantic and elegant and perhaps even less expensive tools, have increased productivity as well as creativity, and have allowed me to surpass all my former levels of output in both quantity and quality.
Now, I can decry the lack of comparable paper-based skills evident in my juniors coming up through the ranks, and insist that because I know how, I'm a more grounded and better practitioner then they, but that would be delusional at best. Some of them, without ever knowing 2B from HB, can maybe even kick my fanny from here to Barstow on a slow laptop. I'm too smart for denial.
It may be a tad flowery, but that's about where we stand right now with DSG versus a three pedal. We're at the initial release of AutoCAD, and future releases will likely create a real gap, until only hopeless old farts with nothing to sell but their "skills" with outmoded interfaces impotently shout their claims of superiority to the black night. IMO, of course...
I understand finesse like nobody you know, but that has little to do with the future of the "manual", and is not the absolute sum and total of driving satisfaction.
In fact, I put it to you that correctly applying force via a "soft" interface like a torque converter to maximize a driving experience may in fact (depending on the system) take a boatload more studied finesse than any solid clutch you may have enjoyed...
I'll swear both are gospel. The real secret is driving a wagon.
The M kinda ticked me off, though. Turns out it was a neighbor, sort of. There are a quite few M3s around, but I've got one of only two local SportCrosses, so he knew me, and rubbed it in at Safeway one fine Saturday morning...
At times I tend to agree with Nippon when he advocates that small cars with small engines receive a true benefit from a manual. That has nothing to do with spirited driving but has alot to do with economy and available power. The CVT may address that issue. Many wax poetic about the spirited driving they do with their manuals but in truth most of them would have to break the law every day to enjoy that very same driving style. 90 percent of most peoples driving must be commuting and I hate to even think of a spirited commuter. funny thing is, most people have already come to the very same conclusion you have and have put their money where their mouth is and have made the automatic transmission the transmission of choice.
The real question people should ask is if there is an advantage to owning a manual why has the public moved away from them? If there is a disadvantage to owning a automatic why do so many people overlook that disadvantage? You may have said it best with the term, driving satisfaction.
Boaz I took the liberty of adding the two words in bold. I think in the US we gravitate to automatics because of ease of use. I mean my wife won't even order fajitas because in her mind she rather have a burrito because they are assembled. Imagine her confusion on why I'd want a manual...
I think my mindset is more European as I don't view driving as a necessary evil or my car as an appliance. I want something more mechanical, a connection with the car, a feeling of control. To me a manual is the best way to get that. With a manu-matic I find myself frustrated that the computer is making a whole lot of decisions I feel competent to do. I want to downshift or upshift and it won't let me and I end up leaving it alone altogether.
A month ago I got a new car, my first manual in 8 years. I've said to myself a number of times that there is no way a manu-matic could deliver the driving experience of my manual. Do I sometimes want a sip of coffee when I have to shift?...yes. Do I sometimes have to lug through a corner in 3rd when I don't downshift quick enough?...yes. But do I regret getting a manual?...no way.
Pardon the interuption, but have you ever actually driven an M3 in 6-speed manual and SMGII versions?? I had, extensively, prior to going for a 911S in 2005. And I can unequivocally claim there is a BIG difference in how they perform. If you are used to the immediate response of clutch engagement form a dead stop - say in taking a left turn accross traffic, there is a noticable hesitation with the SMG unit. Under hard acceleration, upshifts are good, but downshifts are similarly hesitent and slower. Not horrible, like your dad's Oldsmobile, but no one can claim that the 6-speed manual and SMG are interchangible in the way they perform and feel.
On your architectural design analogy, I happen to be a real estate exec and developer. I also think you are under-crediting yourself with the value of your ability to draw free hand. I have probably employed 50 different architectural firms for various projects over the past 20+ years. Any hack out of architectural school can play around with AutoCad. But almost to a tee, those firms that have a principal and lead designers that are "old school" and know how to visualize and draw freehand give me the best designs - certainly at the conceptual and schematic design phases. Even with respect to producing construction drawings, Autocad enabled productivity increases haven't necessarily led to quality increases. If anything, the opposite. My last project (mixed use condo/retail) had 1,100 RFIs and change orders out the wazoo, in spite of hundreds of pages of drawings via Autocad.
We could use a lot less Game Boy bred AutoCad dependent architects and a few more Frank Lloyd Wright's that don't need an Intel chip to understand the importance of the geshtalt of good design, IMHO. But that's another subject.
In my aerospace world, we've all discarded the wax pencils & vellum (plastic, really) drawings for various CAD "tools" (we're on our 6th iteration now -- ComputerVision, CADAM, Unigraphics, Catia V4, Catia V5 & ProE). Almost none of the people who can make all these things walk & talk can do a proper dimensional stack of the machining on a complex casting. Tools certainly don't equal expertise -- I certainly agree on that point.
Where I've heartily embraced change is in navigation, at the expense of making each and every skill I've learned earlier (coastal navigation, celestial navigation & even map reading) pretty much obsolete. Any fool with $300 can navigate all over North America to within 20 feet, in the dark, yet. Oh well.
To me, simplicity is elegance, and the manual transmission is an excellent example.
To that end, I feel the same way about 2 pedal cars. I don't feel 2 pedal cars offer the same feel as a true manual. Its not as fun, it doesn't make me feel as connected to the vehicle, and I don't feel as confident in high performance situations.
I guess I don't understand the point of this conversation in general; I feel like there are those who love sticks and those who are trying to convince those people they are wrong for that. I think if someone wants an automatic, thats fine, I'm sorry they don't enjoy driving as much as I do, but I hardly feel like I am anti-technology for liking to shift myself (especially looking at technologically advanced AWD turbo cars with active differentials and such, and a 5 or 6 speed manual).
The tool is irrelevant. What you do with it is all that matters. Great design is great design regardless of the method used to accomplish it. That's the point. All the tool does is modify the efficiency. Same thing on the road, IMO.
And as Boaz points out, it's what floats yer boat.
I'll tell you some things I feel pretty darn certain about Frank Lloyd Wright:
A) He'd for sure drive a DSG (he was an auotmotive nut and a devoted disciple of new technology)
C) He'd have summarily abandonded AutoCAD for Revit 9.1, just as I have. Onward...
I still have my collection of implements. I admit to sometimes waxing nostalgic and missing the aroma of drying Pelikan, and the funny film left by erasure debris if you let it sit too long on a desktop, and that little Tse-Tse hum the sonic nib cleaner made. I simply don't delude myself that they are better tools because of the skills required to communicate using them.
BMW's SMG has been slammed by the press and the Roundel faithful, and rightly so. It's been reported to have trouble finding forward gears from time to time. I'd put it roughly in the same category as I-Drive 1.1 for viability.
Gobs of torque, an unbelievably great suspension and contact patches wider than my ego and my front door combined were the car factors in my being unable to shake him. Plus he's a better driver than I am. He takes his SCCA events seriously; I've been on a track a handful of times in a Saturn SW2 (great little car but for the FWD) about ten years ago. What a lark...
BTW, change orders, in my experience, aren't generated by the document team, but rather the principles and/or the municipalties involved. If CAD has a shortcoming in efficiency, it's that revisions are so much easier now that these shmoes feel no guilt in having you swap everything at the last minute or even later. Buttheads.
So using a wrench for a hammer would be fine? The tool absolutely matters. The tool has to be specific for the job. IMO if you are driving somewhere, the job is to drive, as opposed to talk on a phone, nap, text-message, have a 4 course meal, etc. If one is actually driving, it is nice to be as involved in the driving experience as possible and a manual transmission provides that for me.
Technology for technology's sake really doesn't do much for me. My progressive scan DVD player works well, provides a great image signal, and was under $100. DVDs are under $10. BlueRay and the HD-DVD players are $500, discs are $50, and the picture on my 720p/1080i tv doesn't really show a difference.
I have a car with a 2.2l 4 cylinder and a 5 speed manual. It holds 5 people and gets in the 30s for MPG. It is also relatively fun to drive (holding 3 gear to merge on the freeway is one of my guilty pleasures). That can't be replicated by a slushbox, a CVT (which sounds like a city bus during any kind of performance driving) or a DSG, which just doesn't seem worth the $1500 premium to...well for anything.
In psychological circles, this is known as "deflection". We'll just sidestep the point by communicating a non sequitur that appears related. Using pencils to draw is fine. Using CAD to draw is fine. Only IT mgrs use wrenches as hammers.
"If one is actually driving, it is nice to be as involved in the driving experience as possible and a manual transmission provides that for me."
"...for me..." I can assure you, I'm every bit as connected as you are, and as, if not maybe even moreso, aware. I don't care to sip coffee or make any calls or shave, or even spend much time listening to the sound system; these are distractions from what I enjoy. I drive. Driving makes me happy. Feeling the side bolsters of my seating while driving makes me even happier.
Too many in here assume and assert that not exercising the left leg means you don't really drive. Codswallop.
Several statements in your post are common throughout this thread \ forum.
And I have no problem with you thinking like that . . .
I will defend to the death your right to stating your position, regardless of how different it might be from mine.
What I do not understand is the ( not usually very subtle ) suggestion that anyone who thinks differently ( makes different choices ) is somehow less of a driver. ( Regardless of gender. )
As I have stated above, I have a car with an automatic. And with a Torque Converter. And I enjoy the “positive control and feedback” provided by the flexible & responsive manumatic functionality. How many times do we need to acknowledge or admit that it is not a manual – and does not offer some of the specific attributes important to those who prefer a manual. Yet it does offer a level of additional control that I want – with the added bonus of “pure automatic” modes – for when that might be appropriate. Plus the ( non-negotiable ) requirement that my bursitis stricken left foot does not need to deal with a clutch. Works for me. Many who post here clearly think less of me for this choice.
And I expect that there will always be those who prefer to drive a manual trans. with clutch.
Good for you.
Seriously.
And:
Good for me.
I do disagree with the oft posted “purchasers of automatics = don’t enjoy driving” litany here and elsewhere.
The fact that I enjoy driving my automatic ( I do, very much ) does not mean that I enjoy exactly the same aspects of the driving dynamics as anyone else – or to exactly the same degree. But I can assure the Board that I really, really ** DO ** enjoy driving. Despite my choice or transmission.
I really am glad that we each have the opportunity to exercise our choice & our preference.
I try to make few assumptions based on facts not in evidence. I was a math major – and also hold an MBA. ( And a degree in English Lit. and one in Computer Science. But I digress. )
Many people choose what car they buy \ drive based on a far different set of priorities and budget parameters than I do. I am currently working with my Daughter ( 25 next month ) planning to buy her first car when she moves out of NYC later this year. She has had no need or use for a car ( and that expense ), with the NYC subway & bus system as her disposal over the past few years. Her priorities are VASTLY different than mine. Yet we are working together to focus more narrowly on what SHE wants and needs. Not what I’d buy – for me or for her. Her priorities are not right or wrong – they are her priorities, and the only areas I have suggested altering or modifying her ‘list’ is in regard to some aspects of safety - where she has had no reason to keep current. Her car, her preferences. And her budget, not mine.
She will likely end up with a car I would not enjoy driving on a daily basis. But I will not be the one driving it on a daily basis – so that is not relevant.
I don’t see any way that those who prefer a manual trans. ( for any of several reasons they find valid & important ) ought to be perceived as better or worse that those who choose an automatic – for whatever set of reasons they hold dear.
Many here post perceptions of modern automatic transmission ( mis-)behavior that appear more than slightly out of date. Since they seem largely to be those who prefer to drive cars with a manual trans., and often “their car” ( if there is a Significant Other or Spousal Unit involved ) is has a manual. Thus they would not see any value in test driving any new car for THEIR use that had an automatic.
The GM 6L80 in my Corvette is a good implementation of a modern automatic trans. with manumatic functionality. And reasonably aggressive Torque Converter management algorithm(s). Meaning: Under most circumstances & conditions, there is a good approximation of the feel of a direct connection between engine and wheels. I expect that there are better, and I know that there are worse.
My point is not ( and never has been here ) that an automatic is superior to a manual for any specific individual. Only that the newer automatics, with some manual trans. attributes, to some degree – are offering a level of involvement superior to previous automatics, as they evolve. And offer those who want or need an automatic to engage in some increased level of involvement with the machine – while still also offering all the advantages of a ‘pure’ automatic where & when desired.
Just my six gears worth . . .
- Ray
Rarely daydreaming while driving.
But occasionally drinking a fresh, hot beverage – when traffic conditions permit me to safely do so.
In psychological circles, this is known as "deflection". We'll just sidestep the point by communicating a non sequitur that appears related. Using pencils to draw is fine. Using CAD to draw is fine. Only IT mgrs use wrenches as hammers.
In engineering circles, that is somewhat sarcastically responding to a logical error. My point was I think that people trained with pencil and paper tend to do a better job visualizing before creating independent of the method used.
This forum is to debate the future of the manual. I don't know why people who have automatics feel defensive, no one is accusing anyone of being less manly or womanly. If you think in the future there won't be any manual transmissions and they will all be slushboxes, thats fine, state that.
I personally think there will always be people who want a true manual, and I think companies that make vehicles that appeal to driving enthusiasts will continue to support that market.
I've put a couple of hundred thousand miles on cars equipped with manu-matic transmissions. In all that time with the exception of coming to a stop with the trans in manual mode
(it defaults to second rather than first) or failing to shift at redline (it'll shift precisely at redline on it's own) I've never had the trans shift on it's own when in the manual selector mode
I use this manual feature routinely as a live in a hilly area.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Very true. I think, at times, this actually happens.
"I don't know why people who have automatics feel defensive, no one is accusing anyone of being less manly or womanly."
I'm not sure I'd go so far as "defensive", but certainly piqued by posters who imply, and some who blatantly insist, that choice of a non-three-pedal car is indicative of not really driving, not being connected, not understanding physics, economics and politics, not being in acceptable physical/mental shape, and/or not being as much of a car person as those who love their sticks over all else. It's just sentiment that's worth refuting since we're all wasting our time on an automotive bulletin board anyway.
"If you think in the future there won't be any manual transmissions and they will all be slushboxes, thats fine, state that."
First off, where others use it for anything with a TC, I personally take the strict term "slushbox" to mean traditional three or four speed hydraulic automatic with no programming to speak of. There are increasingly fewer of these around, and in fact I think they will all disappear far, far faster than the 3-pedal.
I think, reprehensible as some may find them, newer manumatics are demonstrably a different animal, even though the "evil" TC is still attached. I think these newer ones, with sophisticated, and often adjustable programming will continue to proliferate for a while. They do serve a purpose, and have progressed somewhat beyond the "marketing curiosity" phase. There are not manuals, and no one is insisting they are, but they are a dramatic step up, IMO.
I think that dual-clutch, two-pedal manuals with automatic modes like DSG will continue to be refined and will mushroom substantially, especially in the sport-lux and grand touring classes; that Porsche will introduce it on the 911 is indicative. I think eventually (very quickly here, and more slowly in Europe) they will all but force the 3-pedal manual into an option-only status on selected models aimed squarely at enthusiasts. IOW, I would expect and hope that you will always be able to buy a 911 with a stick; ditto a Miata (or whatever it becomes).
I can name you maybe twenty cars right off the top of my head that no sensible person would buy with an automatic (and yet many do), starting with Shifty's xA, that point up the apparent need for manuals in the world today. I also think that number could be dropped by a good 95% if DSGs were available on those cars.
I could be wrong. My wife swears it happens from time to time...
I've put a couple of hundred thousand miles on cars equipped with manu-matic transmissions. In all that time with the exception of coming to a stop with the trans in manual mode
(it defaults to second rather than first) or failing to shift at redline (it'll shift precisely at redline on it's own) I've never had the trans shift on it's own when in the manual selector mode”
I have also logged over 100,000 miles on various manumatics – since late 1999.
Each has been an 8 cylinder Sedan, until my current one.
There are variations in behavior. For example:
The German sedan I drove for a while, when in manual mode, would upshift ( exactly ) at redline, if I was a moment ‘late’ in requesting the upshift. Each other one I have had will ‘hang’ at the rev limiter until I upshift or back off the throttle.
Some prefer one mode, others the opposite.
I happen to prefer the “shift if I hit redline and I am accelerating” mode. This seems much more intuitive to me than an interruption of torque flow and acceleration when hitting redline. This is ( obviously ) the behavior most akin to how a modern manual trans. car behaves under this circumstance. Yet, if I am accelerating ( at or near WOT ) and I hit redline I would MUCH prefer the car to upshift. I find that much more disruptive to the flow of my driving.
That same German sedan also had rather a ‘throwback’ feature ( to me ) in that the throttle had a “kickdown switch” just beyond a resistance point that = WOT. Up to that point, the trans. would not shift down. Pushing past that point, the trans. would downshift. Interesting – and well implemented.
But my REAL preference would actually be that I be able to customize \ tailor the response.
Meaning:
I believe that it technically possible (almost trivial) to allow owners / drivers to customize many aspects of the vehicle behavior - so that it matches what we happen to think is logical.
I prefer to have the choice.
I need an automatic trans., for several reasons. But I enjoy the manumatic that I have now. It allows me to make shift / no shift decisions when I want to – and allow the automatic to make decisions at other times, based on the shift lever position. I have some significant choice in how the trans. is controlled.
I think it is critical that all auto manufacturers address the issue of choice. Never more so than now.
With electronic systems now so pervasive – there is the option / choice to offer amazing flexibility to tailor the car behavior to the individual.
For example: [for driver 1, ID by remote / key] Car asks initially:
Mr. / Ms. Driver, do you want the trans. to allow the engine to bump off the rev limiter and not upshift – if so, press 1.
If you want the trans. to upshift at redline instead – press 2.
For those cars with a separate ‘gate’ to control manual trans. behavior:
Do you want the trans. to upshift when shift lever is moved forward [default behavior] - press 1.
Prefer the trans. to upshift when the shift lever if moved to the rear (I believe BMW and others have selected this) – press 2.
(We are really only talking about interpretation of various electronic signals here – why not allow us choice?)
Always start in second (or even third gear) for Winter driving – press 2.
Next Spring: resume default / always start in first or second gear – press 1.
Want the headlights to come on with the wipers – press 1.
No – press 2.
Etc.
Etc.
Let us select. Let us make the choice and tailor the vehicle behavior to us – not the reverse . . .
Just my $.0195 worth – marked down from $0.02.
- Ray
Preferring to have the car adjust to me (where it makes sense) rather than me adjust to the car . . .
I didn't pay enough attention to that. I apologize. Are you by any chance also a canvas and rigging man?
Don't sweat it. A Chinese missile will probably nullify those GPS units someday, and they'll be lost...
I don't know of a vehicle made in the this century that had that type of transmission. Microprocessors have been in most automatics since the late 80s and certainly the early 90s. I haven't seen a 3 speed transmission since about the same time frame.
I am not saying automatic transmissions haven't improved, I think the technology used and the integration with the rest of the drivetrain is amazing(the 90s automatic transmission Accord had active transmission mounts to dampen the feel of shifts in the passenger compartment). I just don't know how much I appreciate all that isolation. I'm okay with it feeling like I am in a car and not on my couch, I am okay with some mechanical noise so I know I'm in a car and not in my living room on said couch.
My experience with manu-matics has been less than stellar. I have gotten feed back that I need to adjust and learn to work with them, but if I have to make all these adjustments, why would I want that over a manual? I tend to view manu-matics as a toy.
DSGs are different, and I really don't have enough experience to say if they are better or worse, but I do know the DSG is $1100 on a 14,000 car (VW Rabbit) and I don't see that almost 10% premium getting me anything over a 3 pedal car except higher maintenance costs.
How you been, Kev?
How's the IS been? My best friend still loves his.
I don't doubt, since they're rapidly replacing basic automatics anyway, that more often than not, they're serving no useful additional purpose. I'd bet that other than cursory attempts to sample their effects, most owners just leave them alone or don't get it. So be it. Whether or not people use them or adjust or whatever, they do serve, and pretty admirably when you really use them to purpose. Andy and I will attest to that. I can't really speak for Andy, but I would certainly jump at the chance to replace my current manumatic with a DSG; I think he would too.
For the record, isolation isn't a big plus in my book either. It's one, but not the major, reason I did not replace my '03 IS with a new one. Reduction of NVH is a good thing; being entombed is not.
Four years, four sets of staggered rubber. I think it speaks for itself...
Trannies aside, you know what there's really no substitute for? Inline sixes, that's what. :shades: [sigh]
Sorry about the schedule. Seems everyone I talk to has it the same. Productivity numbers are up. That's what happens when you lay off; whoever's left is too scared to go home...
Thought of you not too far back. I saw something in the air that technically shouldn't exist, and I haven't found any record of it anywhere. It was over Livermore, and I swear it was an L-1049 in C-69 garb, and not AWACS either. Didn't know of any out there.
Canvas??!! Not by a long shot -- Dacron was the fabric of choice when I was active. I am a sailor, but haven't had the opportunity for far too many years. Victoria (BC) to Wrangell (AK) and back, over a six week period, was my best (and by far most enjoyable) effort, but there have been others. The San Juan & Gulf Islands were my haunts for several very pleasant years -- got down as far as Olympia & as far up as the aforementioned Wrangell -- it's all God's country.
On other boards for a number of years I've likened the use of, and preferance for, manual transmissions to sailing. While the vast majority choose power boats for anything beyond an afternoon in the bay, some prefer the quiet and purity of sail.
Sailboats are now & will probably always be available, for the minority that choose them. I'm betting manual transmissions will have a similar fate.
The great unwashed will go elsewhere, as has always been the case.
The AWACS version of the Connie always looked like it was pregnant to me.
I find the crossing the Santa Barbara to Catalina Island by sailboat to be very enjoyable, but getting dragged behind a powerboat while I drink as much lake water as possible trying to stand on two Popsicle sticks is fun too.
LOL!
I'm a sail-only type mostly. I find the sound of an engine on the water really irritating.
Except when being dragged around a lake on my knees on a piece of foam could pass for the top of a cooler!
I made that crossing to Avalon quite a bit back when, but from Lido at Balboa rather than SB.
Nitpicker! :P
Never sailed north, only south. Rounding the tip at Cabo was my most memorable moment. Bright sunshine, low following sea and running a 7-knot breeze wing and wing one minute, 30-knot winds, 12' rollers on the beam and reefed main and storm jib the next. I was 17 and on my first voyage.
Skippered in the Aegean for six weeks when I was 21 in a converted traditional Greek fishing trawler (kaique). Owner was divorced from a Swiss pharmaceutical magnate. She spent four months a year in Gstaad, four months on the water, and four months mooching off friends who had mooched off her the other eight. Serious Mrs. Robinson too. Delightful old gal.
[sigh]