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Hmmm, all ten stick shift cars that I've had since 1980 showed higher RPMs in top gear with the manual transmission when compared to the same model with an automatic. The only manual transmission equipped car that I've ever had that I couldn't perform an A/B test on was my 1970 Dodge Challenger, however, if memory serves, both the Manual and the Automatic models had a 1:1 top gear ratio and the same final drive gear ratio (8 3/4" rear end). In theory at least, that particular car would have shown a lower top gear RPM at any give speed (under power) with the manual as the 1970 Torque Flight wasn't equipped with a locking torque converter.
Looked at another way, each of the ten cars that I've had since 1980 obtained superior fuel economy when compared to an otherwise identical car with an automatic, in spite of the higher RPMs.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Interesting – what car?
My automatic ( six speed, in a new Corvette ) is geared exactly the same as the manual six speed in top gear: 70 MPH = approx. 1550 RPM.
- Ray
Traitor, apparently . . .
That surprises me, especially since until recently you would usually get one or two extra gears with a manual.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Again, it seems weird to me that there could be that big a discrepancy and have the same hwy Mpg rating.
My guess is that they decided somewhere along the way that the only people who buy manuals in the US anymore want the shorter gearing.
The mazda does get 1 mpg higher on the highway with the stick, despite the 25% higher rpms...but wonder what it could do if it had the same top gear ratio as the automatic.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I would usually downshift a manual to pass, in order to get better acceleration.
I would usually downshift a manual to pass, in order to get better acceleration.
Oh I definitely agree, on my car and my previous car 3rd gear ran though the low 70s. Winding out 3rd gear is a guilty pleasure for me. I think manufacturers tried to leave some acceleration ability in 5th to make it less necessary. On the 1990 Prelude, it would redline in 5th. It was very short for an overdrive gear.
My family has grown from 2 persons, when my wife and I used to buzz around in my VR6 Corrado, to 5 persons (we sold the Corrado when kids came along). We now stuff the whole family into a 2000 Passat wagon. We've really liked the Passat. It has a 5-speed manual, accelerations nicely with the 1.8T, gets fantastic mileage and has taken all the abuse my kids can dish out. But we have no room to take along a friend or grandma or even carpool because every seat is taken.
I'd like to move up to a minivan or another vehicle that can hold 6 or 7 passengers. Although I sincerely enjoy driving a manual transmission car and have only owned manuals, I would be willing to give it up for the extra space and practicality of a larger car. My wife, however, is adamant -- if we cannot find a larger car with a stick, we'll just keep the Passat until it dies. I can't argue with her when she says that driving a stick gives her a sense of freedom and capability.
Thus, I need some help. I'd be grateful to receive suggestions of new vehicles that would fit my need -- at least 5 passengers and a manual. I know about the Mazda 5. Are there any minivans with manuals, or crossovers, or wagons with 3rd row seating?
Thanks!
:confuse: :confuse:
How sad that nothing with three rows can be equipped with a manual.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I anticipate the day is not too distant when Toyota will give up on manuals for good, which is the day I have bought my last Toyota.
Luckily for me, Honda and Subaru (Mazda too!) still seem to be much more committed to the dog leg.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think Mazda's stick is the MTX75, which I've had 2x in other vehicles. It was a lot of fun.
I haven't driven a recent Honda stick except for an Accord on a test drive so I really can't comment. In the 80s/90s though, they had the best FWD transmission on the block.
El confuzo...
I really should've started a family earlier, I could've had a Dodge Caravan 5spd and by the time it was dead, I wouldn't need a minivan any more.
Several of us will do without other things to get a car with a manual. Others will do without the manual to get those things.
Different strokes.
I don't think any of us is convinced that, if we bleat loudly enough, more models with manuals will appear.
However, we are still allowed to vote with our dollars, last I heard. While I might prefer a 2.5 litre diesel sport wagon (with a manual, of course), one isn't available in North America. I can still get a manual transmission in a number of other vehicles I'm willing to drive though, so all is not lost.
I think there will always be several choices for me, so I'll not worry too much about what might have been.
Automatic transmissions have been around as long as polyester. And neither one has caused the real thing to go away. Manuals (not environmentally unfriendly DSG's) are still the transmission of preference amoung sports car buyers and a high percentage of "real" sport sedan and coupe buyers. Of which, I concede, the Maxima is no longer a player. And look at how it isn't selling like it used to, or being even discussed over at the ELLPS forum. The "green" argument is completely absurd, as spiritinthesky showed, and upon further research, I also determined that virtually all the cars I would consider have either identical or lower emissions in manual form.
You rant and rave as if you are the only one who has discovered that the end is near and you feel compelled to warn everybody. Bottom line is, you are wrong, at least for the long term foreseeable future. Your premises are wrong, your analysis is flawed, and your conclusion is incorrect.
If you would stick to simply claiming that the number of manual transmissions sold to the same mass market that embraced polyester and vinyl sided tract houses is shrinking, I'd be happy to agree with you. But by trying to extend this to claim the enemy is at the gate for those that prefer and can afford a 335i or 911? Wake up. It's not going to happen. The "enemy" is too busy helping Ford go broke. While at the same time, two of the three most profitable automakers in the world - BMW and Porsche - are infinitely more profitable catering to the "fringe" market as you would call it, than the not so big Three will likely ever be again.
Peterbilt, Kenworth, Freightliner...
They don't make them too big for a manual..
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Your constant, or is it "constipated", use of every conceivable and occasional inconceivable argument to proclamate that the "enemy (of the manual transmission) is at the gate" is just getting old and tired.
The constant noxious and irrelevant comments from that corner are primarily why I've gone into lurk mode on this discussion. Arguing those points are simply a waste of my time. :sick:
Best Regards,
Shipo
Porsche is profitable today, so what? Are they dominate in the world market? Nope. will they shape the future of vehicles offered in this country? Nope. Should they be proud of their accomplishments, sure. I don't care if it happens during my life time or during my children's life time the future, a term that can be applied to after my life time, doesn't look good for gas burning sports cars in a society looking for relief from foreign oil. It also doesn't matter if I will be sad or glad because it still isn't up to me to make those decisions. And believe it or not, it will be up to the very same unwashed masses you show so much disregard for. You can be just as profitable as you want as a manufacturer right up to the point where you become politically incorrect. Then you change or go out of business. Or will you contend that manuals will be with us even if we do mandate fuel efficient hybrids or EVs? By the way, just how big is BMW and Porsche compared to Toyota? I understand they have a few bucks in their coffers as well.
And just so I can be sure, I thought this was a forum to debate differing opinions as to the future of manual transmissions, not someone's preference for the same? Did I miss the intent?
No more tired or flat than the persistent knocking of boards against the foreheads in here while chanting "only manuals are real cars, only manuals are real cars, only manual are real cars...", all the while fiddling with the rosaries made of clutch pedals strung on throttle cables (no drive by wire here, heaven forefend). :P
I am reminded of the heady days of "Foreign v. Domestic" and all the Laurentian Abyss-depth insight afforded the faithful in both camps by that "discussion".
Again, I say "Bah"!
Hmmm, I know some may well feel that whay, however, as a general rule I think most of us who like to stir our own are saying things more like, "Don't take away our manual transmissions just because you don't like them or see a need for them or understand why some of us might want one. Just give us the damned choice." ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
If we understand your desire for choice what can we do to make the choice available? Why do some get angry simply because others point out a trend that everyone can see?
It is simply a debate over a piece of machinery. Nothing more. A car is absolutely "nothing" more than a tool. A tool that makes the most people happy will be successful even if it is nothing more than a toaster.
This whole debate comes down to the direction some of us see the industry moving. The other point of view is more of a where people hope the industry will not go.
It will always be hard for people to agree when one is talking about what the numbers seem to be showing and the other is talking about how they feel.
shipo I understand your preference about as well as I understand nippons. I have no problem with you having a choice, but I don't get a vote.
Best Regards,
Shipo
So our newest family member gets picked up this morning... a 6-speed Nissan Versa
Now that's an interesting turn of phrase -- one I hadn't heard before & one I think I'll be borrowing in the future.
vote "manual transmission" with your wallet.
btw, i understand that a manual trans car is less likely to be successfully stolen or jacked. lower insurance rates!!?
Best Regards,
Shipo
Oh god, there is some other "political" forum out there in which you are even worse than in here? :sick:
"Nor do I make weak attempts at personal attacks as some do."
I've tried to direct my comments to your weak arguments, but frankly, you do seem to have a severe case of ADD in that you will bounce back and forth and up and down in your (il)logic. For me to respond to each is like a game of whack-a-mole. If you look at your own statements as to why the manual transmission is doomed, they are about as internally inconsistent and contradictory as one could make with a remotely straight face. Between you various flavors of the day, "greenies are the environmental enemy", "SMG's are the technological enemy", "market share is the business enemy", etc. etc., and your chamelian-like ability to switch between them, if that isn't "ranting" I don't know what is.
Perhaps it's the "business" argument that strikes me as the most absurd. With all due respect, you've offered nothing to substantiate any personal expertise or success in the area of business whatsoever. I don't proclaim to be a great expert. But I left a secure corporate executive position to become an entrepreneur and start a new company that caters to a "niche" market. We have been reasonably successful, and I have the luxury of driving a couple of "niche" cars with a manual transmissions. I know firsthand the importance of being responsive to customer needs and desires, especially in the area of large discretionary purchases. You may have all of the abilities in the world to be a "politician", but don't be so arrogant as to try to educate me on business or predict future trends. If you are that good, come back when you've made a couple of billion in the hedge fund business like one of my classmates. I'll be all ears.
Lastly, for the others in this forum who have had to endure this, I apologize. I have no ill will towards those who, in our wonderful free market, capitalistic economy, would choose an automatic over a manual.
The volume carmakers are certainly offering manuals only grudgingly these days in most of their models, except in their sports/sporty cars (and except for the ones I noted above - Honda, Mazda, and Subaru seem more commited to the manual than the average bear, although I'm not sure if Mazda and Subaru qualify for the title of "volume carmaker"). Even stinkin' AVEOS are hard to find on dealer lots with a stick, and that is a car that is definitely, umm, CHALLENGED with the auto, a crappy old 4-speed. Ditto the Cobalt on Chevy lots (which isn't as challenged with the auto), and OMG, buying a Focus manual is just about impossible (and that's another model where the manual transforms the car). In looking at these blurbs in the car mags about Toyota/Lexus' future sports cars and super car, I find that it is likely they will be auto-only. Aw crap...
I just bought a new car last week, stick shift of course, from a local Toyota dealer who makes a point of keeping a fairly good selection of sticks on the lot. The internet guy I bought from said (and he could have just been jawing to pass the time, I dunno) that the Yaris is selling as often in stick as in auto at his store. Now that car is actually fairly peppy with the 4-speed auto, but still the 5-speed stick transforms it. I bought the only stick-shift Matrix on the lot though (:-() except for a leftover XRS, which of course is the sport model that Toyota doesn't make any more. They had a couple of manual Corollas, but more autos. Only the Scions were equally stocked in autos and manuals, from my quick and unscientific survey. Toyota is moving away from manuals big-time; seems like they are just aching to be done with the whole pesky "manual shift" thing, and produce only autos in the future. Which is a shame, because I liked owning Toyotas in the past...
Maybe when everyone is ready to follow Honda's lead and offer 5-speed autos even in their cheapest models, we will see the decrease in stick shifts accelerate. Already Nissan has gone mostly CVT in all its models (what a choice! I know it would never be mine). The manual choice is, refreshingly, a 6-speed (Versa, Sentra, Altima), but again, try to find them on dealer lots. I hope they continue to offer that in their small cars for many years to come, but the CVT makes better mileage I believe.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Focus: Discussion of future prospects for the traditional manual transmission in consumer-based automotive applications, most especially here in the US.
Conclusions: The trend is down. EOS.
We could potentially stop it right there couldn't we?
I support all of you who love your sticks, as I have stated on numerous occasions, but some seem to take it a bit beyond love, and personally at that, all the way to open derision of the majority who have chosen otherwise.
You're not alone in your pain. My own belief is that the only truly great form of four-wheel transportation is the RWD compact sport wagon, and all others are of a lesser nature by design.
Difference is that I don't find others lacking by virtue of their alternate choices in transport.
Unless, of course, they chose a full-size SUV as their commuter car...
:P
I would never deride anyone for their choice of an automatic, in fact some of the sportshift-type autos are OK, seems to me. I wouldn't choose them personally, but would rather change my choice of vehicle to one that offers a stick, but the trend downward in availability is steeper than I had feared...
I still say sports/sporty cars will be the hold-outs as a group, but the days of them getting better fuel economy than their auto counterparts are over, I fear. And while I thought that manuals would hang in there among small cars for another 10-20 years at least, I am now beginning to wonder...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Hopefully, 10 years from now, I will have a bit more $$$ that will allow me to consider more specialty vehicles, further insuring being able to have a stick.
The main reasons the rest of the world makes those choices are:
1. Price at the pump- we're heading in the same direction.
2. Reliability
3. Cost
4. It's what you're used to.
It seems to me that as we in the US are used to being taught to drive in slushies, are used to eating slushies while we drive and have not had to care about MPG, automatics have actually been a pretty logical choice (just not mine) but perhaps that will shift as gas goes up. Who knows?
On the Nissan Maxima thing, I say 'down with them' for taking a great car with a great transmission and turning it into a car that the driver has to pretend like he's changing gear- is that not the weirdest ad to promote a vehicle? But great for Honda for putting a 6-speed into the v6.
Maybe it balances out?
"I still say sports/sporty cars will be the hold-outs as a group, but the days of them getting better fuel economy than their auto counterparts are over, I fear. And while I thought that manuals would hang in there among small cars for another 10-20 years at least, I am now beginning to wonder... "
Spot on, I think. There is some evidence of continued support in those models aimed more at sport that offer only manuals. I believe that would be Mazdaspeed models, Civic Si and the like. Overall, though, I don't think those can or do make up for the bleeding in the mainstream models. The acceleration, so to speak, as you and others point up, comes from the use of increasingly sophisticated auto and semi-auto boxes in line-ups across the boards.
The consumer who once had a no-brainer choice of, say, a '95 Neon (I like that platform) with a 3-speed yecch-o-matic or a 5-speed manual across a number trim levels (big "duh" there), now looks at a Civic with a 5M or a 5A, and both are pretty slick.
Personally, I think those sticks will be available almost in perpetuity, or at least for your 10-20 years but will be increasingly hard to find on an increasingly limited range of models.
Where I think the fastest demise may likely occur? That very pillar of manualdom we all seem to praise with uniform genuflecting: Porsche.
Nope..won't happen..
It says so right here..
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Twenty years ago, most smaller cars were offered with 3 speed automatics (4 speeds, or OD, if you were lucky). The 5 speed manual offered the following benefits:
1) better fuel economy
2) cheaper - the automatic transmission option was probably $600-900 more expensive
Now, with the advent of 5-speed automatics, the fuel economy issue is pretty much mitigated - in fact, in some rare cases, the auto transmission actually gets better mileage than the manual. Most manufacturers, however, are still charging more for that option.
Couple that with the fact that the average American is commuting farther than ever before, with more traffic surrounding them, and it's not too surprising that manual transmissions are becoming more scarce.
Currently, two of the three cars at my house are automatics - one 5-speed, the other a 4-speed. The third car, an inherited Subaru, is a manual. I drove it on some errands a week or two ago and was reminded how much fun it can be, even though it's 14 years old and has 139K on the clock.