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I thought it was interesting that it was stated real off road trucks have a transfer case PERIOD but saying real manuals have a clutch pedal PERIOD gets into all kinds of trouble.
Contrast that to a known sports car Road like Ortega highway or even the twisty mountain Roads where I live. You can still drive a Bus loaded with tourists and an automatic transmission.
I suppose you could gear a vehicle without a transfer case for a 4 rated trail but I am not sure you could drive it on the street afterwards.
But once again I was only expressing the party line from one involved in the sport not the casual driver. If off road to someone is a fire road or a graded dirt road then a transfer case isn't needed.
I concur about the fire road...the ranger that takes care of the campsites at Little Calinte hot springs off East Camino Cielo (6 miles down a "improved fire road") has a Fiero, or at least he did in the 90s.
2008 Maserati Gran Turismo.
"The 2+2 will be powered by a 4.2-liter 405-hp V8, linked to the same six-speed automatic transmission Maserati revealed on the Quattroporte at the Detroit show in January..."
The top end players seem to be getting into the line one by one.
Hell, with that body, interior, suspension and powerplant, you could mate it to a Turbo HydraMatic; I'd still take it...
“Back to that G8, there may be some reason to delay the manual for the V8, like timing for certification or something.
Then again, they may just be introducing it late to put it in an early grave; keep the press off their backs because it is coming, but delay it long enough that many will go ahead and get it with the auto anyway, and then when manual arrives demand will be so low they can kill it based on sales numbers? Am I reaching here? Real far?”
Your conspiracy theory is interesting.
I think that one other possible scenario ( strategy? ) is that they want to introduce the V8 A6 version, and have all the publications test that, and then release the M6 version a month or 2 later, in hopes that everyone will then follow up with a test of that version. Generating some additional \ longer ‘buzz’ about the new model.
When a new sporty model is available with both a manual & automatic trans., it seem that every enthusiast publication tests the manual version. And rarely tests the automatic. There has ( for example ) been exactly one independent road test of the A6 Corvette C6. And that was only a one page, back of the book, quickie. C+D did mention testing the A4 and A6, with numbers, but only in context of a ‘tuner special’ Corvette, that happened to be equipped with the A4.
We’ll see.
- Ray
Encouraged that at least GM is saying there will be an M6 version.
Some day.
Well, yeah. Does 1947 count?
It's the concept of yet one more serious GT coming to market sans clutch pedal. While I'm certain the demographic has a great deal to do with it, we're still talking about what was the sporting mfr once upon a time.
Personally, I think they should at least make the offer of a 6M. I mean heck, half the people who pick one up are going to oder it anyway. It's not like you have to worry about it sitting on Auto Row with a big yellow "REDUCED" sticker on it because less than 5% of your sales are manuals...
I think of the other big GT cars of the past, that big Benz, the 6-series, maybe a Porsche 928 and the Bentley or Rolls, only the BMW and the Porsche were available with a manual (and the early 928 had a terrible clutch).
"Back in the day" it was possible to spec out domestic cars in a very custom fashion -- pick your rear-end ratio, engine, transmission -- you name it.
Those days are so, so gone.
BMW offers dozens of vehicles in Europe (even ignoring the "dirty" diesels) that could easily be sold/leased here, but for our buddies in the government.
Oh boy.
(Of course, the EPA thing mentioned above may play a role - these monsters don't get EPA-certified, or at least they don't get EPA ratings for fuel economy).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
From maserati.com:
"It is fitted with an automatic gearbox and equipped with an adaptive control system which adjusts the gear-shifting mode to the driving style and the driving conditions."
One more? "GT"s like that are just old-school muscle cars with tighter suspensions and nicer interiors; not intended for anyone who actually likes driving.
I have a little seat time in the current SL. It's bigger, heavier and more muscle-bound than anything I'd want in a two-seater, but there is a serious deal of fun to be had driving it. Don't delude yourself into thinking plush and powerful equals boring.
And I disagree on the focus of the premium GT. For that kind of green and in such circles, it has to deliver all the goods, even if the only people taking advantage of said goods are magazine editors. The on-paper and latent cred is every bit as important as the fit-up and cachet to the customer.
Part of the joy of having real power is that everyone knows it without you having to do anything! :shades:
I am sure you meant to point out this is only true in one particular type of racing, as opposed to leaving it as a blanket statement.
If that were the case more people would be taking public transportation. Or so it would seem to me.
I think you are correct, and if we lived in a country that had a public transportation system, they would.
GT= grand touring, not grand driving. The people who buy them would be perfectly happy if the cars drove themselves. That whole gas, brake, steer thing is just a bothersome means to an end for them, not an end in itself.
There may be some owners in that vanity-only clique but by and large, the people going this route are well-heeled enthusiasts of sorts. For those who really see driving as a chore on the way to being seen, there are an awful lot of alternatives that present all the amenities and cachet they desire, plus a fair deal of performance on tap without limiting themselves on doors, trunk space or rear-seat room.
I sure do like the look of that Maserati, inside and out...
Saucy little minx though, that's for certain...
I enjoy hills and curves, lateral acceleration, seriously great rubber, throttle steer, grabbing the right gear to keep an sweet inline six in its sweetest spot. That's just me. Every single day.
Manumatic.
Porsche 911 Turbo follow Up Test
- It's Everyman's everyday supercar. Well, every man with $150 grand who's willing to tolerate Porsche's Tiptronic transmission.
- Although Porsche says the 911 Turbo accelerates quicker with the optional Tiptronic than it does with a six-speed manual we're still not fans of the five-speed slushbox.
- If you want all these functions without a torque converter second-guessing your intentions, choose the 911 Turbo with the standard six-speed manual transmission and then go to driving school with the $3,420 you'll save. You'll probably even learn to shift.
- Porsche's claim that the automatic is quicker might be true, but it's not entirely realistic. Here's why: You can't just put your foot to the floor and produce that 3.4-second 0-to-60 time. Here's the routine: Press the "Sport" button; engage 1st gear (the transmission defaults to 2nd); mash both pedals to the floor until the overboost indicator illuminates on the dash; release the brake; hold on. (However), it's virtually impossible to synchronize your launch against a stoplight. Get it wrong and the kid in the big-winged Mitsubishi Evo will get the drop on you.
- Here's the deal with the 911 Turbo: With the possible exception of the Tiptronic transmission, it's a magnificent machine. It feels right in the ways a sports car should. It fits snugly — like it's wrapped around the driver. It has massive power, huge grip and the best brakes money can buy. It's among the best all-around performance cars we've ever tested.
- But the Tiptronic steals this car's famous ability to fully engage its driver. It's a bit of technology that should be reserved for cars that aren't half this capable. Or bear this kind of legacy.
- We believe cars with this much personality deserve pure manual transmissions. We're narrow-minded purists and proud of it.
I guess I'm guilty of being narrow minded too. But it beats the alternative thinking that all technology must be good and that tapping the lever of a tiptronic, steptronic, or some other slushbox is just as good as the real thing. And in the case of the 911, that's like having the opportunity to play a round of golf at Augusta National and asking where the ladies tees are. :confuse:
I love all that junk about launching with the Tip and turbo. Like the manual will modify the process so very much. You'd still have to bring it up to boost and dump the clutch, which ought to extend plate life quite a bit, I'm thinking. And even then, your time to 60 is slower than the stick. And what compensating, inferiority-complexed butthead is out there in a $150K road machine stoplight racing with an EVO-punk?
I think until the DSG is in place, though, they're correct that this is really a three-pedal car. The Tip seems a tad out of place here. A serious SMT/SMG wouldn't be bad though, and of course DSG would only be an improvement... :shades:
Oh, my...what will happen if you do just stomp on the gas? Will it take 3.8 sec to get to 60 mph?...I don't think I could live with a car that was that doggish.
In addition to the points made above by wale_bate1, the manual transimission time is not likely to be equaled by most actual drivers either...simply because whatever times are reported are based on a professional driver doing the shifting. In reality most drivers are probably going to accelerate faster with the automatic, because they are not going to get a perfect shift in the manual.
Regarding the golf analogy, buying this car and assuming that this will means that 0-60 will be achieved in whatever times are reported (whatever the point of that is, anyway) is like buying the same clubs Tiger Woods has and assuming you will then equal his golf score at Augusta National :P
(even if you get to use the ladies tees, I'm thinking he beats you
In any other sport or subject would this be a statement to be proud of? Shouldn't statements like that be accompanied with a puff on a cigar and a swallow of whiskey as they lament the "good old days?"
"I guess I'm guilty of being narrow minded too. But it beats the alternative thinking that all technology must be good and that tapping the lever of a tiptronic, steptronic, or some other slushbox is just as good as the real thing. And in the case of the 911, that's like having the opportunity to play a round of golf at Augusta National and asking where the ladies tees are."
to me this is closer to, "I don't care if everyone else likes Calaway and Tayler made oversized drivers I like the old Magreggor Persimmon drivers. Or better yet, "real tennis is only played with small wooden rackets."
I will agree that it takes more concentration to play good with a old standard size set of clubs. But it is not more enjoyable than reaching a par 5 in three.
I do believe you have a point. There are some traditions I like myself. I respect your choice and preference for a manual. I just don't see many people wanting to have to go to driving school to develop the skill to keep up with what the engineers can place into the average drivers car.
You don't have a hand literally in the guts of your car with an automatic, you are a passenger with accountability only in steering, that's why it's not as much fun as a stick.
Your skill and feel for the engine are not relevant in taking off smoothly and quickly with an automatic. That's why it is not as much fun as a stick.
As for the golf analogies, I'm more in the habitat camp than the boaz one. But I'll throw in another way to look at it that I think pretty much sums it up:
- Manual transmission: Irons with high quality forged tour blade club head matched to a firm, but controllable rifled steel shaft. Takes some skill to use, but provides the best control. Balls: Titliest Professional or Pro V1
- Tiptronic / SMG / DSG: Irons with forged, cavity back heads, matched to graphite shafts. Easiest for the weekend amateur or hack to use, but they don't give the professional or low handicapper the control they want to "work the ball". Balls: Top Flight or Pinnacle.
A half liter titanium head matched to a graphite shaft might work reasonably well for both amateurs and pros. But you don't see the pro's using graphite shafts on their irons because it isn't effective technology when control, spin, trajectory and feel are important. I know the moment I see someone with a graphite shafted sand wedge that they have no real concept of how the game should be played. And they probably would be the kind to take on the kid in an Evo at a stoplight with a slushbox Corvette, 911 or AMG. I could care less who wins that race, they are both losers.
P.S. My golf analogies are assuming you start with similar high performance cars like the 911, M3/M5, Ferrari 430, etc. I don't want anyone to think that running around with a Honda Accord manual puts you in better company than an AMG SL65.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Pretty telling actually.
I'm curious about feathering the clutch in any sort of spirited driving. Haven't heard of much of that, and certainly never done it other than at take off and in certain slippery conditions (thereby perfectly mimmicking a TC, BTW), which is anything but spirited. Certainly rev-matching would be greatly preferred under hard-footing? :confuse: Or has it just been too long for me?
Anywho, I'd agree that the Tip wouldn't be my choice in a 911, if that choice was 5A or 6M. Between 6M and DSG6, though, personally I'm paying for the quicker box. But Lordy, that whole launching diatribe was a pantload of goat guff! Let's us just get the manual so's we can go through all the same motions and burn a plate in 30K miles... :surprise:
Boaz, I agree completely that if the choice is manual and it makes the driver happy, it's a good choice. I just find most of these arguments against manumatics, SMGs and most especially DSG, on "principle", as resoundingly hollow, as if some folks just have to find some way to distinguish themselves as the superior drivers they actually believe they are.
Every now and then you get someone, like brother Nippon for instance, who just honestly says, "for me it's about what I enjoy, and I enjoy a stick and three pedals".
No way, no reason, to argue with that...
Also, while I have also heard great things about Audi's DSG transmissions, they don't really make a serious sports car to test it in, IMO. Extremely heavy coupes and sedans in which the handling and "feel" factor might already be lost long before you get to the transmission. At least that was my impression when testing the TT against the S2000 in 2001 and the S4 against the M3 in 2004/5.
My brother's 993 turbo has 85k miles on the original clutch and at least 100 hours of track time. You folks advocating F1 style DSG's conveniently forget that they cost $10k+ and are replaced every race or two.
I can guarantee you - better yet will bet you - that if you follow Edmunds advice and put your money into Porsche, Skip Barber or another quality performance driving school, the increase in your ability will be 100 times what you would get from the theoretically faster shift times of a DSG. And if you take one of those courses and drive both cars, you won't be posting a preference for DSG on this forum in the future.
Future of the manual transmission. Not track time for father.
The launching diatribe was just that; stoplight racing primer for over-homoned wish-they-weres who find themselves with a couple hundred large to burn.
I'm full willing to bet your brother, if he indeed is a serious dedicated weekend warrior at the track, doesn't spend a whole lot of that time screwing around dumping his clutch from a standstill, unless of course his 100 hours is all 1/4 mile, in which case he ought to be flogged for wasting a 933 that way. Just as easy to have fun with a Vega at the strip. :surprise:
DSGs are not F1 or F1 style. They were outlawed from F1 because they offer an unfair advantage in competition, allowing virtually continous application of torque without interruption during the shifts...
On the street and for the typical driver, manual or not, that would be about a third or quarter of the price of the car (of models so equipped now), so I think that's way high.
I'd imagine an overhaul at about the same ticket as a typical slushbox, or about $1400-$2200 depending on the box.
A beauty of DSG and its two-clutch system, as suggested before by someone else in here, is that the driver has less opportunity to do stupid things with the clutch, thereby avoiding the tranny shop for new plates... :sick:
Maybe you meant SMGs? I can imagine a full-race SMG costing large I guess...
This little gem (mine was a 124E) packed an I-4 1198cc plant straight from Singer, that I rebuilt as my cost of getting the car.
Challenge? Keeping it in the sweet spot? Try finding a bleeping sweet spot.
Anybody else got a better first manual than that? Anyone? Bueller?
Automatic, manual, DSG or SMTs all are transmissions of personal preference in a street machine. People can't give a real reason for getting one over the other except for personal preference. More than 1947 posts should pretty much prove that. Transmission choice will ultimately come down to consumer preference not the willingness of the consumer to take additional classes to learn how to drive their car. Feel is not a objective reason. If it were more than 90 percent of the American driving public feel ease of use is far more important that shifting a H pattern. For a street car going to the track today manuals still have a very strong place in racing. For street cars that have sporting capabilities manuals have a strong presence. The question is, at what point will it not be worth it for a manufacturer to offer dog legs? If the DSG continues to develop along the lines it has today Skip may want to start teaching drivers how to drive those cars.
Didn't Skip once teach formula Ford driving? If he did what transmission did he recommend?
Always wish I knew how to drive a 3 on the tree though...great theft protection...
I wish I had a pic of it.
There's someone selling one that looks identical, here:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Cars/Toyota/photos/a-89117671/p-3542008- 8/k-267596.htm
Only theirs is yellow.
Fantastic car. There wasn't a whole lot of "fun" built into the chassis of a mid-70s econowagon, but the manual made it more fun anyway.
DSG may be the wave of the future, but for me it wouldn't be as much fun. I like my ride to be involving. I do think highly of the DSG, having driven it a couple of times now in the A3. Perhaps one day I will have one like that, but only once all the manuals are well and truly gone from the kind of cars I like to buy.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
As far as stop light racing? While in college I used to supplement my income now and then when things were tight. I still enjoy going to Pomona now and then. I simply can't believe they have cars that will hit the traps at under 5 seconds and over 300 MPH.
On the street and for the typical driver, manual or not, that would be about a third or quarter of the price of the car (of models so equipped now), so I think that's way high.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that the transmission in a DSG equipped GTI, which has MSRP of about $24,000, is not costing $10,000.
It's nice to see "leaked" pictures of the new A5 and see a stick, and a proper 3 pedals in nearly all of the pictures.
Actually, I think it's a stick in all the pictures.
Yes I've driven DSG and it's brilliant.
But it's still 3 pedals for me............[and a beautiful Audi interior]
I would think that would be a repair/replacement cost, not a manufacturing cost. I also agree with the previous point that the 10k manufacturing cost would be for a race level transmission.
Call the VW service dept and get a quote for a new trans in a DSG GTI, I would be curious as to what it costs as well. Replacement cost for my folks auto trans in their mini-van was 4k, on a 16 or 17k van.
Nippon and I like three pedals, yes, but there was a time that I wanted a 2006 Kia Rio LX, which only comes with manual turning windows.
It is heartwarming that car manufacturers are still making stick shift manual transmissioned automobiles.
I, for one, don't see them stopping that stronghold.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Three years ago I checked on a full rebuild for for my mother's Sable wagon. Highest price was $2200.
I'm not buying $10K for a new DSG (no pun intended).