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DSG represents new technology, and the twelve people on the planet who understand any single version of it are not going to be the ones repairing it. Let's hide and watch.
I'll be taking notes . . . as I manually depress the clutch pedal & engage whichever gear (could be more than one away from where I used to be) I choose. When I need a clutch job, it'll be fairly inexpensive. The transmission itself will never break.
Bring money for your alphabet soup transmission. Oh, but wait . . . you probably lease -- never be without a warranty & all that.
Knock yourselves out.
Every other automatic transmission was replaced, 700r4s, the FWD Chryser (pre-ultradrive), 2 older Toyotas, an Escort...the 15 year old 150k Honda is on its 1st clutch, trans fluid was changed a couple times (they use differnt motor oil weights in CA vs MI due to climate), Contour had 150k on its clutch, had done a lot of auto-x and track events, and was fine. The Galant got a new clutch ($400) at 115k after 5 kids learned to drive stick with it, and perhaps a couple of other things thrown in also.
I don't think its a huge deal, a couple of grand in maintenance over the life of the car for not having to shift is worth it to a lot of people. A lot of people lease, and never have to worry about an out of warranty vehicle.
As far as everyone speculating what a new DSG costs to repair or replace, when someone calls to see how much it costs to service, I will believe it. Will that price change over time and come down as they become more common? Probably, but eh, someone else can be the early adopter...remember BetaMax
I really think it's the other way 'round! Every other auto? Cursed is what you are, my friend; either that or just ruddy bad-mannered to your automatics.
Three of mine have been Chrysler "mini"vans, two Chrysler/Mitsu AutoSticks, one a VW, and of course the IS is a Toyota. No issues. Not a lick. Of course the GM you heard about. $900 after over 300,000 miles is absolutely fine by me, just fine.
As far as DSG repair costs go, I'll believe the high-cost-of-repair cow crap when someone publishes average cost to repair. You're talking about a systen that is simply different, but no more intricate than a typical TC automatic.
If you love to shift with a stick then that's why you buy the stick. Because you love to feel the type of control that you're used to. Comfort. That I can respect. All the rest of this is just so much self-boltering rationale. Ninnyhammering, IOW.
I don't want that lurchy out in left-field feeling one gets from their slushbox when they search for a footing and proper gear for revs, slip and toe-in concoction. I know they're making 6 and 8-speed slushes now and CVT and DSG and, who knows, LSD(hah...they do make a LSD but it's a differential system! Tee-hee-hee!)...lookit there...I tried to invoke a little bit of Janis Joplin and/or Jimi Hendrix humor and, lo and behold, the automotive nerd invention crowd had already beat me to it...the Limited Slip Differential.
Ahh...it really is an automotive world out there, isn't it my car-freaky buddies!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Read it and weep. I had my 2003 M5 in for routine service two weeks ago when I ran into a guy with an 2002 M3 waiting in the service area. His SMG transmission had been "acting up" and after a couple of failed attempts BMW determined it would need to be replaced. Cost $5,500, of which the dealership is picking up half the cost, even though the car is 8 months out of warranty. The car had been inexplicably holding gears in automatic mode and was hesitating on shifts in manual mode. There was no evidence of actual gear chips or failure, the problem was somewhere buried in the computer controls and electronic clutch system.
The cost for a clutch replacement on a manual M3 at the same dealership is around $1,100. High, but a fraction of the cost of a new SMG unit which, because of its design and electronics, has limited opportunity for repair vs. replacement.
I call for an immediate nationwide training program sponsored by Al Gore to re-train everyone to drive stick shift manual trannied cars. Now.
Right. No, the point remains...manual trannies rule like Foghat, man.
MTV is for the automatic tranny crowd. :surprise:
Kids need to be taught how to drive stick and nobody is teaching them. I still remember my Dad's diligence in training me to drive stick. He wouldn't let me give up(I wasn't going to, anyway)and stuck to it until I knew how.
What a great gift to me.
If you are driving a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS with the 5-speed I'll teach you for free if you let me drive your rig.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
"I call for an immediate nationwide training program sponsored by Al Gore to re-train everyone to drive stick shift manual trannied cars. Now."
Americans in general want their appliances to be as easy to use as possible. Cars are for most people just that, appliances. So they do not expect to have to learn how to use it and how to manually manipulat it just to make it work. It is easily evident in the number of people driving automatics verses manuals and even in the number of vehicles now being offered in automatic form with only the option to order the cars in manual. The dealers and the manufacturers know what the people want. The prime example may be what happened to Maxima. Car and driver used to call it a great alternative sport Sedan. People may have even bought it as a sport sedan. whatever sport sedan is supposed to be. The problem is, not many people bought it as a manual and when the point of sales dropped to some magic number they dropped the manual and it now comes with a CVT. Nissan is now offering the Altima with a CVT option and even the Sentra is shown on comercials with a CVT. Where were the fleet of manual drivers that could have prevented Nissan from not dropping the manual in the Maxima? I am sure there were people that would have preferred a manual in the Maxima, I know it was too big for my friend Nippon but he would have rather had one in a manual but there simply wasn't enough interest so the manual was dropped by the manufacturer. That attitude by the American buying public is the danger to manuals not anything we say in these forums.
Much like Wale has said earlier, a few old magazine editors may sit back in their padded offices and bemoan the passing of the manual in some cars, but the general public isn't buying it. Or should we say they simply aren't paying attention. How long can that attitude last?
Think about that for a second. The default transmission of choice. Not the automatic tranny. The 5-speed stick.
Kia offers the 5-speed in their Sportage and Rio and Spectra but not in their new Rondo, though. I had to eliminate that one from next-rig contention.
But the Mitsubishi Lancer is a driver's car for driver's. They knew they simply had to build the hot new Lancer with the 5-speed stick. Had to.
I don't see this transmission going away anytime soon.
You are right, though, boaz, when you say most Americans want appliances for cars. They want easy trannies. Trouble is, an automatic tranny is not easy to repair. Or easy to fork over tons of bucks to repair. And they are getting more complicated, too, not easier to make or repair.
Manual trannies rule the roost like Foghat is the best rock band in the history of recorded musical instruments.
"Slow Ride...take it easy."
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
As a (still) owner of a 1995 Maxima SE 5-speed, it was, IMO, the best sporty sedan of its day, compared with the Accord, Camry, Mazda whatever, even Acura Vigor/TL. And even though only an estimated 15% of Maximas were sold with manual transmissions at that time, total sales of the Maxima were, I believe considerably higher than they are now. It was being marketed as a "4-door sports car" (still have the 4DSC window sticker). Although that may be a bit of a stretch, my 12 year old Maxima is still a much more fun to drive car than the current CVT equiped Love Boat version.
In the last several years, Nissan bloated up the Maxima to Avalon-ish proportions and castrated it of any real sporting intentions, transmission included. It now sells for invoice or less (vs. close to MSRP in 1995) in quantities that are half or less of what they used to be. It's been completely forgotten by the automotive press, and anyone who has the slightest enthusiasm for driving is looking elsewhere. Infiniti's own G35 has taken a big chunk of the former Maxima market on the upper end, the lower end seems to be buying Altimas and Accords that would never have been considered competitive in 1995.
When you consider the fact that the majority of 3 series and 5 series buyers do not buy manual transmissions with sport package equiped cars, you can't necessarily conclude that offering a manual and sport package isn't important. Having a car that enthusiasts buy and appreciate is a big marketing boost to attract even the less enthusiatic buyers. You know, the "halo effect" that causes you to buy an Armani suit even though you don't exactly look like George Clooney?
In my opinion, the CVT equiped Maxima is a perfect example of what not to do, than a smart move by Nissan. They had achieved a loyal following in the press and among enthusiasts that was essentially thrown in the toilet. And now, they have dismal sales to show for it, at least as best I can tell.
I'm sorry for rambling - your point was??
BMW's SMGs have been problematic. Road & Track tested units that at times had trouble finding a forward gear. And yet, this is anecdotal. Actual percentage of units with catastrpohic issues? Maybe you have that info; I don't. I know of no such issues with Tiptronics.
Not what I was talking about, but interesting info.
The total number of major mechanical component failures in any automobile today is remarkably small as a percentage. If I were looking at staying in warranty perpetually, it wouldn't be for drivetrain considerations, but rather for the absurd level of electrical and electronic amenities we have come to expect, and their often short life expectency.
My '95 Dodge Stratus ES (automatic) had two component failures over its six-year stay with me. I lost an O2 sensor that cost me $130 to replace, and a high-side AC switch, the cost of which I don't recall. This typifies, in my experience, the nigglings that represent long-term ownership. The rest, for me, have been wear and tear items like rotors, pads, plugs, rubber, etc.
Still, makes a (very trivial,IMO) side point that an SMG, even one supposedly capable of real track use (M program) isn't $10K for replacement. Maybe the full-race ones are.
Anyway, sorry about that!
Major BINGO there! Major!
"In my opinion, the CVT equiped Maxima is a perfect example of what not to do, than a smart move by Nissan..."
IMO, you are correct, sir. CVT me no likey. Just don't. I think, based soley on street image, that even a simple slush box would be a better sell than a CVT. Just on image though, as I have no idea about the Altima's performance with the CVT. Is there perhaps some fuel economy advantage they're trying to sell with that?
Funny you should mention that.
I've been watching the current season of "Real World" on MTV (hey, they're in Denver this year, and I'm interested to see how they are portraying my town).
Anyway, they've got two Jeep Compass' to drive - one automatic, the other a stick.
Last episode, one of the roommates took the automatic Compass to the airport to pick someone up. A number of the other roommates had wanted to go to a local water park, but of the 5 people going that day, not one of them could drive a stick!
So, they didn't go.
Sad, sad, sad state of affairs.
Let me mention this, too. That '66 VW Fastback was a great little car. Easy to shift and good pickup. The accelerator was very responsive to the giving of gas and the shifting was nearly seamless.
The hills in downtown Seattle were my biggest things to fear when I started driving(at 16 years old). Some cars would creep up right behind me and start giving it ghastly right as the light turned green. Impatience was the norm, even in the mid-70's in Skidattle.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
So far I've had 0 failures of the two A/Ts I've owned, both
went over 100K with no more than fluid/filter changes.
I do not buy the nonsense propagated by some makers that A/T fluid doesn't have to ever be replaced. :mad:
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
The only transmission (automatic or manual) I ever had problems with was an automatic. But it was in a 16 year old car with 150,000 miles on it...the last 12,000 or so were put on by teenagers, probably frequently in an abusive manner. The car was worn out in so many other ways that the transmission problems did not really matter to me.
Now one of the reasons I prefer a 4 cylinder to a V6 is I figure the 4 will be cheaper to repair than a jammed in sideways V6. Do those who are touting cheaper to repair manual transmissions also buy 4 cylinder cars for this reason?
The aptly named "throwout" bearing is usually replaced with the clutch. A clutch job on a normal car (American or Japanese) runs about $500, or just under half of the cheaped transmission rebuild so far.
In modern manual transmisions (modern defined as made after me), the only reasonably common faulure I can think of is the 5th gear pop-out on Sentra SE-Rs from teh early 90s. This typically seems to happen somewhere between 110 and 150 k. This rebuild is a little more costly as well because it incorporates a limited slip differential, some thing absent from FWD cars with automatic transmissions.
I think in the 60s, replacing clutches was more common, but so was reparing automatics.
You know the 4 is in there sideways too, right?
My Contour had a sideways V6, I think the only issue I had was I needed to get a double elbow extension peice on the ratchet for when I was changing the spark plugs (which was a twice in my 10 year ownership event).
I think fuel cost might be lower with the 4 as opposed to the 6, but I don't know how much it would affect maintenance. I guess if it tossed a head gasket or something, there would be 2 on the V6 as opposed to 1 on the 4.
I bought the stick because I like it. The fact that I've never replaced a manual transmission or a recent vehicle's clutch is just a bonus.
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My Stratus 2.5L was shoehorned in and left the rear bank up against the firewall with little room to maneuver. So I didn't. Didn't need plugs until just before I let it go, though.
Lets ask ourselves why automatics occupy more than 90 percent of the market. We should also ask why manuals still work well for some.
If the answer to the first question is because automatics are easier to drive and their transmissions are fully covered to the smallest part for as long as the car is covered with a warrentee then what will manual have to be to stay in the market? If a manual is more efficient wouldn't a computer controlled clutch give you the best of both worlds? Easy to drive and more efficient?
The problem is few people are honest about their reasoning. It has nothing to do with efficiency because CVT and DSGs are as efficient as manuals within 1 or 2 percent. A CVT should be no more expensive to repair. The truth is some people simply like shifting. To them it is like popping bubble wrap. But as cars become what they were always intended to be, simple modes of transportation in relative comfort and with relative ease manuals only appeal to the dedicated. When the dedicated fall below 5 percent or so will the companies still see a need to make transmissions so few seem to care about? We are not talking today or even tomorrow. We are talking about 10 or 20 years from now. At the rate things are going if Nissan is successful at making a profit without a manual offering how long will it be before others follow. MB and Toyota seem headed in that direction already. Honda dropped the manual in the CR-V and how long will it be before other cars follow suit? It is true Porsche my hold out longer than MB or even BMW but they are a blip on the automotive sales screen.
My friend Nippon has celebrated the idea that someone is offering a manual option in a truck this year. But he lives in the same state I do and I found out that the manual option in the F-250 with the big V-8 is a limited number option in our state. I admit I have no clue why but it Seems california will allow more automatic equipped F-250s into the state than manuals. Or so the dealer at Snow Ford has informed us, so that could be taken with a grain of salt. Not that there are many full sized Pickups with manuals in the first place. I am sure the consumer rate for full sized pickups has to be close to SUVs when in comes to Automatics.
It's not just the extra parts, there can be a lot of extra labor. The only V6 I have ever owned was a minivan, replacing parts like gaskets required removal of the engine. I owned some V8s long ago, but these were not transverse.
The whole transverse mounting thing began with small 4 cylinder cars. I have no problem with that design, but do not really like the idea of applying it to a V6.
This is a primary reason for getting a 4, just an added bonus, the main reason is that the power of 4 cyl is adequate for me (even without a manual) and handling is slightly better, so why pay for a V6.
Back on topic, as far as the fuel effiency of an auto vs a manual, while on the EPA sticker they may be equivalent or the auto may even be slightly higher, but most people don't drive like the folks the simulated EPA test route. This is one of the reasons they are changing the EPA estimates this year (DUMB IDEA, but whatever). More so, I think when people drive like they normally drive, the manual provides better real world fuel economy than the auto. I have a slew of Honda Accords as my basis for comparision, but that is still anecdotal at best, so as they say, YMMV.
I think they missed an opportunity to teach the public how to drive. Let people whine all they want, if you punch the gas from light to light and floor it all over the place, you're gonna get crummy mileage. Its not their fault.
If they change something, it should be the testing methodology. I usually get better than EPA in my cars, and I don't exactly drive like a grandma
My point was that, for some reason, there seem to be some in this forum that think that technology used in racing is automatically (pardon the pun) appropriate for my 911 C2S or their Toyota Camry. That's just simply a dumb conclusion. Or else every automatic equiped AMG car with 500-600+ horsepower would come with a deployable parachute for better braking after that stoplight drag race. And we'd all be driving on racing tires with a 150 mile lifespan.
I've spent the equivalent of 10+/- days in performance driving schools and track time. My brother has spent the last 10 years employed in the field. There is not a single street legal sports car in existence in which the manual transmission version does not beat the automatic/SMG/DSG version around a road course track, in the hands of an accomplished driver. Period. Not the 911 Turbo, M3, Corvette, Ferrari 360/430, or your friendly little Mini-Cooper S. This isn't speculation, this is fact. Check with your local track, if you need to verify.
I think it's great that there are now far better choices for someone who doesn't want to drive a manual transmission. What you have to give up in performance to relieve your left leg is much less today than it was with the only alternative being a TQ slushbox. But let's not assume that everything that goes into a Formula One race car is applicable to our daily drivers with the same results.
P.S. My 911 didn't come with a barf bag for the passenger seat, either. Last year, when my brother worked a charity event in which he took out several celebrities for a few laps around the track at full speed, about half tossed their cookies. That's what 3g turns and 4g braking will do.
I brought my brother to a track event where be proceeded to get car sick while I was driving (turned green, didn't hurl), and that was in an NX2000 (Nissan Sentra hatchback from the early 90s...fun but not too fast) at Willow Springs. My brother's comment was something about knowing what his clothes feel like in the washing machine
Where I live they do and it is annoying being behind them, as they take about 1/2 mile to get up to the 55 mph limit on the state highway I drive on every day. Maybe it is different where you live, but it seems to me most people drive as if their car will break if they exceed 2500 rpm. This is another reason I decided to be assimilated...all the pokey drivers are less frustrating when I am driving an automatic.
EPA has put out estimates of old and new mileage figures. So far I don't see any new advantage for manual transmissions.
I tend to drive more aggressively with a manual (hence the lower frustration level with automatic that I mentioned). I would typically get about 27 mpg in my normal commute with a 4 cyl maunual trans Contour (when temps are not too cold). With my first tank in my new automatic Mazda6, I only got the city figure...but temp was less than 15 most of the time.
I'll be interested to see if I get the mileage I would expect, based on the Contour I think I should get maybe 26 mpg as the city figure is the same, but highway is a bit lower for the Mazda.
That's the other thing. Those real F1 boxes, and WRC DSGs are manuals. There's no auto function on those boxes. They only shift when the driver tells them to, and manually selects the gear.
All beside the point really, as the question at hand is where we're going. The advantages, most especially to the average driver, in selecting a manual over an automatic are no longer substantial or even clear cut. And with emerging tech, the advantages to the performance driver are disappearing as well.
You buys what you likes and win. Wonderful time to be a "motorist", says I.
Ditto for the commuter in bumper to bumper. Unless of course it's one of those dimbulbs who just sits there waiting for the line to move up far enough so he/she doesn't have to keep clutching, thus inviting every Tom, Dick and Sylvia to cut in in front... :mad:
Not that I mind...
Re-read redsoxgirl's post. SLOWLY if you need to. She distinguishes between Formula One race cars and street legal sports cars.
I have a friend who was a Formula One racer back in the 1970's. He turned 60 last week and can still do 100 push ups in 60 seconds and can one-arm curl 50 lbs 15 reps (he weighs 155). These guys needed impressive arm strength and endurance to drive the likes of Monte Carlo where they were shifting in turns at 2.5+ g's. It wasn't an exageration to say they shifted 2,500+ times in a race. These drivers were actually athletes. (I needn't tell you what he thinks of the pretty-boy faced NASCAR drivers that go around an oval counterclockwise and call it a sport. Only in the United States.)
I don't have the track experience of redsoxgirl, let alone her brothers, but the BMW driving instructors who ran the two day course I took a couple of years ago were 100% in agreement. They all preferred the M3 with a manual transmission over the SMG version. At best, it's capable of 1g +/- cornering and the minimal advantage of having both hands on the wheel is significantly outweighed by shifting control. To the tune of 2-3+ seconds a lap.
I do agree with your conclusion that everyone should buy what they like. But these irrelevant comparisons to Formula One racecars is ridiculous. They have more in common with the racing planes I've piloted than your family sedan.
The y will show the new DSG-equipped M3 at Geneva.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
As would I, I'm pretty damn certain, from all I've read, assuming I wanted an M (other than the hightop).
I realize the distinction she was making, spirit. I'm making it in reverse. I understand that weekend warriors having continued success with the third pedal appears to be the norm, although I haven't seen anyone give me proof or quotes or anything. I'm ready to accept that the percentage is really there. I'm also willing to accept that those participating at that level probably have a predisposition toward that format as part of the enjoyment of their activity, and further I accept that when the real money's on the line, professionals appear to have gone in another direction.
Yes, yes, it is about driving what you like the way you like it, and therefore, without pointing fingers, about not making silly assumptions about others.
Now that's worth looking at.
When Honda gained exclusive engine supplier status for the Indy Racing League 10 yrs ago they did a number of things to control costs. Turbo boosting was removed in lieu of an increase in capacity from 2.65L to 4L. But over the following years capacity was reduced first to 3.5L and now sits at 3L. They then instituted 'warpower' throttle control which reduces peak engine revs subsequently if the driver holds redline for more than 20secs. The latest move to protect their investment is to reduce peak revs from 10.8 to 10.4 krpms to further reduce the likelihood of blown engines. These were all business decisions and probably the adoption of SMG transmissions may be one also in the other racing series mentioned.
T2
You may have a point on costs. I don't know, but 2006 F1 rules changed things up a bit too. 2.4L V8 max as opposed to the 3.0L V10, one engine per two race events allowed and one tranny per three race events. Next year that goes to three for the plant and four for the gearbox.
From the F1 site on the gearbox:
"The 'sequential' gearboxes used are very similar in principle to those of motorbikes, allowing gearchanges to be made far faster than with the traditional ‘H’ gate selector, with the gearbox selectors operated electrically..."
Again, there is apparently a fair difference between race SMGs, near-race SMGs, BMW SMGs and Toyota SMGs.
DSG is a whole different animal...
The new A5 coupe will ship from Audi with the 6M first! The auto version won't come until a tad later.
Score.
and jeffyscott:
"all the pokey drivers are less frustrating when I am driving an automatic"
This is the best reason I have heard yet for buying an automatic, except for the whole physical disability thing! (not that I am ready to switch yet just because of this rationale;-))
And regardless of the whole manual vs auto debate, Nissan's decision to go solely with the CVT as the only auto option (and therefore the vast majority of the built cars) is a big mistake. This will hurt sales greatly, and we will see a 5-speed auto for Altima, Maxima (if it survives) and Sentra within a year or so, mark my words.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I don't have a clue as to what the reasoning Nissan has behind the CVT offerings but something is driving it. And this is coming from a company with a strong European influence. While I expect to see 6,7 and maybe even 8 speed automatics become even more common I question why the CVT would be a bad choice for Nissan? Automatic drivers aren't all that interested in feeling the shift points. What difference would a CVT make to the 90+ percent that don't even want a clutch? The CVT has the potential to be as cost effective as a manual and is so close to a manual in real world fuel economy what is the drawback?
I think it's too different to make most people comfy. I don't think it's a rational thing at all, if that's where you're going.
I also question the CVT's historic ability to handle torque. I don't know anything about Nissan's CVT, but I certainly wouldn't want my powerplant options too limited by the tranny choice. Perhaps they've cleared this hurdle?
Yep, its calm and peaceful driving my 4 cyl automatic to work, while listening to a book on CD.
Disability...yeah, I do have tennis elbow, as well.
Are you and Nippon saying Nissan is heading into the dumper?
Although hampered by its power-sapping CVT, the stylish and agile 2007 Nissan Murano is a strong pick for those seeking a crossover SUV that stands apart from the pack.
Cons:
Continuously variable transmission (CVT) compromises performance, choppy ride on SE models, can't get stability control on S.
Since some of you are big on racing analogies for street cars, I'll consider going to a CVT the day Lance Armstrong promotes one of those newfangled CVT type bikes for grandma as the way to win the Tour de France.
Seriously, even though the Murano is supposedly rated for 3,500 lb towing, my hometown Nissan dealer where I take my Maxima (on Lake Erie, where boat ownership is prevalent) had a sign on their wall that read, "Although we stand behind the factory warranty, we do not recommend the Murano for hauling boat/trailer combinations greater than 2,000 lbs long distances or up and down moderate to steep grades. We recommend Nissan's other fine SUV's and Pick-Ups for this purpose".
I asked the service manager about the sign and he said they should relabel "CVT" as "POS". He also suggested that I keep my 1995 Maxima SE with 155k miles (not a single major mechanical problem and on the original clutch with no sign of wear) for another 10 years as "they sure don't make them like that any more". :surprise:
Actually, as much as I don't want to think about it, a bicycle transmission is more like a DSG. For simplicity I am going with modern road bikes. You have 9 or 10 speeds in the back, 2 or 3 in the front (maybe think of it like a transfer case or rear end) and 2 levers on each brake to control the front and the back. On my Dura Ace 9-speed STI (shifter/brake lever combo) I can shift 3 rear gears at once going down (easier to pedal) and now I can't remember how many going up at a time. Like a DSG the lever ratchets, so it is always in the "home" position no matter what gear I am in.
Its a fantastic system for a road bike, its very comfortable and intuitive, and there is no reason to reach all the way to the downtube to shift. It gives very positive feedback on when you have selected the next gear, and there is a gear indicator mounted in the cable coming out of the lever (although most people dont pay a whole lot of attention to the gear number, its all about cadence).
Time trialists/triatheletes don't particularly care for it sometimes because they use specialty aero bars and they want conventional shifters mounted on the end so they can shift while in the tuck & roll position.
But you are wrong about the Sentra - the top of the line model is the 200 hp SE-R Spec V, available ONLY with a six-speed manual! :-)
Ah yes, choose the CVT and you CAN still have that slipping-clutch feeling despite the too-early demise of the manual transmission!! :-P
Nissan loves CVTs because of their European influence, which gives them tons o' CVTs at bargain basement prices, thereby reducing cost, while beating the TC auto for fuel economy. Does the consumer make out as well as Nissan does with this choice? Time will tell, but people like their shift points. Sentra sales are SLOW.
At least their manual is a 6-speed, even if it IS the clunkiest shifter among the Japanese Big 3 compacts.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)