The Future Of The Manual Transmission

iluvmysephia1

days needs to offer both CVT and automatic transmissions and manual transmissions. I don't think they absolutely have to make manual transmissions but it's cool if they do. You didn't hear me say that.

For instance, on the 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer, engineers built the car to have a 5-speed manual transmission as standard equipment. The CVT paddle-shifter(which works easily and allows for quick shifting and grabbing of all available engine torque but doesn't require a clutch pedal and is mounted right on the steering wheel)is available for $1,000 more. Mitsubishi will sell truckloads of the CVT Lancers and handfuls of the manual transmission Lancer's.

To be successful though they had to offer the racing CVT option. Had to.

What's interesting is Mitsubishi labels the manual transmission Lancer the standard or default transmission for the 2008 Lancer.

Let's have a big 'ole smiley face for that one.

lilengineerboy

I honestly cant think of anything more pointless than paddle shifters on a CVT. Its like a solar powered flashlight. The whole point is to make the engine be at its peak efficiency for the demand at all times and the paddle shifters just force steps into a place where there isn't any. That is even more cheesy to me than the fake manumatic shifters.

iluvmysephia1

the paddle shifters. Just because we don't like them doesn't mean that a whole nation of 'Fast and Furious'ers' don't want them.

I would rather use and operate an old-fashioned clutch and shift to the gear that I want when I want it. They last longer and are more efficient on ghastly and everything about them is superior in every way.

BTW-Mitsubishi did a wonderful job in making the 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer's leather-wrapped steering wheel, too. When I look at that I just want to hop in that baby and drive.

As Mike Meyers once said with Garth, "Vantastic!"

lilengineerboy

Yeah, I have come to realize I am not a typical buyer. It just means I have to do more looking around before I find something good, but I still standby my thought that anything that takes a continuously variable transmission and makes it have steps for the sake of Fast and Furiousness, or any other reason, is pretty inherently lame.

spoom

I would guess, "no" because there isn't much of a line for the ones made now. Mfrs usually adjust production by what's selling, and little by little std trannys would be more prolific if there was a line around the corner for them. Yamaha just launched a new sportbike with an auto, bet it sells about as well as a Buick wagon with a standard
¿

boaz47

I never even considered motorcycles when talking about automatics. That was until I started looking at Quads. I see them everywhere and at some of the motorcycle shops they out number the bikes they have for sale. The most interesting thing is, they see a form of shiftable automatic by the boatload.

I agree with you that thinking of a Sport bike with a automatic seems strange but I will be very interested to see if it sells at all. I know that Yamaha's Big Quad has one so maybe they are simply using the transmission from that?

lilengineerboy

Honda had a motorcycle called the "Pacific Coast" or something like that in the late 80s/early 90s. It was smaller than a Goldwing, I think it was a litre bike. It had fulllllll fairings (you couldn't see anything mechanical) and it had a trunk and an automatic transmission. I think it was around for a few years. I don't know quite what they were going after with that bike.

boaz47

I don't remember the PC being a automatic. It did look a bit more like a scooter and I know the new Yamaha 400 scooter is an automatic. Makes perfect since for a cruiser or one of the larger scooters. They are transportation machines and should be effortless to operate.

spoom

hmmm, I can't remember about the PC either. I know Honda made a CB750A model of the famous SOHC inline four '69-'78 CB750's They only made it a few years. I can see it in a quad, and I'd rather have an auto in a quad since there's more than enough work for your feet just staying on sometimes. On cars, I just think folks don't want them all that much in mainstream transportation. People vote with their wallets, and for the most part they still pay EXTRA to purchase (and maintain)an auto which is a pretty strong statement.

jeffyscott

People vote with their wallets, and for the most part they still pay EXTRA to purchase (and maintain)an auto which is a pretty strong statement.

I don't sell cars very often, but for the few I have sold myself it was sure a lot easier to find potential buyers for automatics than for manuals. I don't know how much automatic over manual affects trade-in values (I have never traded-in any car)...is it enough that the automatic ends up being free or very little extra cost for those who change cars frequently?

I guess one way to find out would be to price leases on mainstream cars with automatic vs. manual. I don't know that I believe edmunds figures on the trade-in value difference for auto vs. manual.

habitat1

Resale values of automatics vs. manuals appears to be very dependendent upon the type of vehicle and the area.

Porsche charges $3,400 +/- for their "Tiptronic" automatic, but it lowers the "residual value" on leases by 2%+. My dealer will not order an automatic without a non-rfundable deposit - and he has been known to keep the deposit on buyers that changed their mind.

In the case of my Acura TL, where the 6-speed and auto were priced the same, I have been told there are far fewer buyers for the 6-speed but, since the 6-speed is now no longer available on the base TL, I should be able to get more for my car than if it were an automatic. My Acura dealer has offered to pay me cash (no trade in) for my TL 6-speed at full "trade in" value. He would not do that for an automatic.

On the other hand, I am sure there are some cars that are less sporting, being sold in areas where the buyers are less sporting, in which the automatic would be a much easier sale.

iluvmysephia1

trannies and Mitsubishi is happy to oblige them. On the 2008 Lancer the manual transmission is the transmission that is standard for the car.

Humm...wonder why I'm interested in buying a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer? Throw in a 650-watt Rockford Fosgate stereo with subwoofer in the trunk, standard ABS w/EBD, large 4-wheel disc brakes, tire pressure monitor, sunroof, cruise control, audio controls on the steering wheel, bluetooth, leather-wrapped steering wheel, leather-wrapped stick shift, automatic climate control, nice supportive bucket seats with ample side bolstering, 7 airbags including the obligatory side-mounted airbags, driver's knee airbag, beautiful 10-spoke Seattle Sonic wheels, rear spoiler, extra support up front with a new strong crossmember underneath the engine for improved anti-roll capability(the 2008 Lancer is 56% more torsion-tough than the last Lancer built), foglights, wrap-around bodykit from the front that flares out to the sides and continues back to the rear and chrome-tipped exhaust.

But the point I started with is that enthusiasts want manual transmissions. Mitsubishi listens to them and obliges. To sell cars and to continue enjoying the experience of driving automobiles with them. Do ya think that a lot of Mitsubishi workers also own and love Mitsubishi automobiles? Just maybe?

andys120

Gee Iluv, if I didn't know better, I'd think you liked the new Lancer better than the Obvio.

ohgeez

I've owned manuals but since this type of transmission is used in F1 and Ferraris, I'd say get rid of the annoying clutch. Unless It's too expensive to be fitted in 20k-30K Autos.

iluvmysephia1

I just threw it in here on Edmunds to anger all of the F-150 crowd.

I think it worked pretty well.

habitat1

I've owned manuals but since this type of transmission is used in F1 and Ferraris, I'd say get rid of the annoying clutch. Unless It's too expensive to be fitted in 20k-30K Autos.

The F1 transmission option in a Ferrari 430 is a $10,900 option - and that's over one of the best manual transmissions in the world.

Any comparison to paddle shifting transimssions in cars costing less than $100k to a Ferrari F1 transmission is absurd. And, by the way, the few lucky folks I know that own or have owned Ferrari 360's or 430's still prefer the 6-speed manual. Even the production F1 shifter is a far cry from the actual Formula One racing transmission (which only lasts 2-3 races before replacement).

It's funny how no one would look at the 4 or 6 banger $1,500 engine in your average $25k car and claim that it's comparable to the $30k+ Ferrari engine, but if they see paddle shifters, they somehow try to make the same crazy link.

moro

I have a 2003 Murano . I had to have the transmission replaced due to overheating of the transmission. Nissan did not warranty the replacement because my plastic air scoop for the transmission cooling had been damaged. It is located at the bottom of the vehicle and it appears to direct more air that passes underneath the vehicle over the transmission. It costs $51.00 yet it created in their estimation the overheating and cost to replace was $6650.00. The dealer said it was caused from " impact damage" to the transmission air scoop. If the CVT transmission is vulnerable to overheating due to a malfunctioning $51.00 air scoop , they should change back to the regular transmissions or warranty the CVT experiment. Has anyone else had this problem ( overheating ) due to a impact damage to the transmission air scoop ? Love to hear from you

spoom

Wish we could see into the future and know what the mix sold will be by the end of the model year. That would really help this thread. Anybody know of a mainstream car where man. or auto. was a build option last year, and what kind of build & sales numbers there were?
I'd like to see something in a Corolla, Cavalier, Sentra, etc. Unless I'm missing the early point of this thread, a Maserati-type car isn't really what were looking for?

boaz47

One test might be from Nissan. People will be given the choice of a manual or a CVT without the traditional automatic option in the Sentra. We should be able to see how sales do between the two transmissions this year. It is a chance to have buyers show there preference for the old standard transmission and a newer version of the automatic. In this case both transmissions will get a start without any real numerical advantage so the consumers preferences should stand out pretty quickly. (The dealers won't have passed sales to guide them in filling their lots with 90 percent Sentra automatics.) It could show the direction that segment of the market will head in.

nippononly

Nah, I disagree. CVT is the only automatic option, so dealers will go ahead and fill their lots with 90% autos just as in the past. The test will be which ones are left over at year's end...

And the fairly popular SE-R is auto-only. :-(

boaz47

So do you believe the Sentra will increase in sales or decrease? Do you believe we will learn anything from consumer reaction to the CVTs?

lilengineerboy

I think the Nissan CVT is very highly regarded in the business. I don't think the CVT is going to be a big winner for people who want a stick, but I think its a neat application for a gearless "automatic".
I think the programming on the trans is where they wone the points.

spoom

I suppose if they stock just 10% std trans and have even 1 left at the end of the year it would show folks prefer autos. I don't care either way, I just know that mfrs have to try and guess what will sell the most and maximize production towards that end. If a car line such as all Corollas only made up the % of Toyotas that all stds do now, they'd probably drop the Corolla.
¿

kyfdx

The Sentra SE-R only comes in automatic? :surprise:

nippononly

Yeah, you didn't know? The same was true for the last gen - there's no news there. If you want the extra 25 horses and rock-hard ride, you can spend the extra $3 grand and get the spec V, which comes with the 6-speed manual.

I think the decision to go CVT-only for the auto will hurt Sentra sales (and Altima sales, and Maxima sales) - people like their automatics with gears, not a transmission that revs the engine to 6000 rpms every time they floor it from a light and holds the revs there. Even if it IS more efficient.

spoom: If they have 1 manual and 15 autos left at the end of the year, then that would mean customers like the auto less than they traditionally have. If the dealer has 1 manual and FIFTY autos left, we will know that the CVT-only choice wasn't such a good one...

andys120

people like their automatics with gears, not a transmission that revs the engine to 6000 rpms every time they floor it from a light and holds the revs there

That's not how the CVT worked on the Mini Cooper I drove. It didn't go to redline at all but kept the engine on the sweet spot with no input except the gas pedal.

I tried fooling around with the manumatic feature but it would only change engine speed by a few hundred rpm so it was pointless.

It wouldn't be very efficient to have a trans that went to redline and stayed there, would it?

kyfdx

Ahh... I forgot about the Spec V.. I was thinking that the SE-R was their sporty model, and didn't have a manual..

Still.. isn't the CVT the answer to a question that was never asked? With 5- and 6-speed automatics, who needs it?

andys120

Still.. isn't the CVT the answer to a question that was never asked? With 5- and 6-speed automatics, who needs it?

Good question actually but I think there's some logical answers:

1) CVTs are lighter and simpler that the complex multi-speed
TC-based transmissions ergo cheaper to build or repair.

2) CVTs are (at least in theory) more efficient than either a MT or a traditional A/T because they have an infinite number of gear ratios.

Thus the theoretical case for the CVT is a good one but it remains to be seen whether they work in the real world. I'd worry about being a guinea pig if I were to buy a CVT equipped car, particularly one packing any torque.

In that vein I checked the reliability ratings for the Nissan Murano which AFAIK has only been sold with the CVT since it was introduced. According to Consumer Reports the Murano has a better than average FOR rating for transmissions with '06 models scoring a much better than average rating.

I think possibly the CVT is the answer to the question of how to transmit power to the wheels most efficiently. By comparison the 7 speed autos in the top range Mercedes and Lexus seem like overkill.

jeffyscott

I would think, if you are accelerating at least somewhat aggressively, that a CVT should go to and stay at torque peak not redline???

If you are accelerating gently, would it still be most efficient to be at torque peak?

shipo

"CVTs are (at least in theory) more efficient than either a MT or a traditional A/T because they have an infinite number of gear ratios."

Yes, in theory you're correct, however, in the real world that's not likely to ever happen. Why? There isn't a single modern engine on the roads today that has such a narrow peak efficiency band that a transmission with five or more gears couldn't keep it in the sweet spot for either economy or acceleration.

Curiosity being what it is, I just checked the A4 6-Speed vs. the A4 CVT. The 6-Speed weighs marginally less (by like 22 pounds), looses to the CVT in urban driving by 1 mpg (23 vs. 24) and beats the CVT in highway driving by 2 mpg (34 vs. 32). Hmmm, gimme the 6-Speed. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

andys120

There isn't a single modern engine on the roads today that has such a narrow peak efficiency band that a transmission with five or more gears couldn't keep it in the sweet spot for either economy or acceleration.

I agree, that's why a question the use of 7-speed A/Ts in some large luxo boats. I certainly didn't realize the M/T was so close to the CVT in gas mileage. I wonder why the Manual is better in city driving, that seems counterintuitive :confuse:

shipo

"I wonder why the Manual is better in city driving, that seems counterintuitive"

It's not. Apparently in addition to my spelling error, I didn't write very clearly either. My bad.

The A4 CVT beats the A4 6-Speed in the urban cycle 24 mpg to 23 mpg, however, the A4 6-Speed beats the A4 CVT on the rural cycle 34 mpg to 32.

To take this a step further, I just compared the A4Q 6-Speed against the A4Q Tiptronic (Slushbox). Here the traditional automatic transmission matches the manual on the urban circuit and only loses to the manual by 1 mpg on the highway. Consider the following city/highway mpg figures:

Car -------- 6-Speed ----- CVT ----- Auto
A4 FWD --- 23/34 ------ 24/32------------
A4 AWD --- 22/31 ------------------- 22/30

Then there is the whole weight issue:

A4 FWD Manual: ----- 3,428
A4 FWD CVT-Auto: -- 3,450
A4 AWD Manual: ----- 3,549
A4 AWD Slushbox: -- 3,660

Clearly the weight gap between slushbox auto and the 6-Speed manual on the Quattro is significantly greater than the gap between the two FWD versions of the car. Assuming that the 6-Speed gearbox is the same in both versions of the car, the implication is that the conventional automatic weighs 89 pounds more than the CVT.

Best Regards,
Shipo

jeffyscott

CVT beats manual in the new 2008 Lancer. The CVT is rated at 22/29 mpg and the 5 speed manual is at 21/29. These ratings are, I assume, based on the new EPA methodology.

spoom

not sure on that math, guess it's how you look at it. My point was just that if you only get say 10% or 20% in standard, even having one left would be failure in my book. I mean, if you can't even sell 1 to the other 8 or 9 nine it's obvious to me that folks just aren't interested. Curious what percentage of all cars are sold with air conditioning? In a Presidential election 60% would be a landslide.........

walterlhm

i want to know whether the minivan or minicar is equipped with 6 speed manual transmission?

ichpokhudezh

Mazda 5, for example

rockylee

Well Motor Trend, is predicting in the near future these dual-clutch transmissions will replace pretty much all of the manuals left made. I guess we will see...

Rocky

nippononly

the last time MT was right about anything that hadn't already happened...

But then, when it comes to the stick shift, I am in denial...

:-P

andys120

I think MT is right.

shipo

"I think MT is right."

Nah. There are roughly four classes of drivers with regards to their transmission choices.

1) Died in the wool "Gimme an auto shifting car so I don't have to be bothered."
2) Folks who say, "I prefer manual transmissions but traffic is just too heavy for a stick. Gimme something that will shift for itself when I don't want to be bothered, but will let me shift when I want to have some fun."
3) Numbers geeks who say, "Gimme whatever yields the best test numbers from zero to sixty and/or whatever gets the best gas mileage."
4) Those that say, "Unless I can have absolute dynamic control of which gear, the speed of any given gear change and the abruptness (or lack thereof) of the clutch engagement, I don't want the car regardless of its other charms."

I think MT is wrong because folks who fall in category four (me for instance) will never be swayed by a sexy twin (or even triple) clutch automatic gearbox. Slice it and dice it anyway you want, DSGs and SMGs and other transmissions of their ilk are nothing more than high tech automatic transmissions.

Best Regards,
Shipo

rockylee

I personally would like to try one of those dual clutch deals, shipo :P Have you drove one and if so what is it like ?

Rocky

cdnpinhead

4) Those that say, "Unless I can have absolute dynamic control of which gear, the speed of any given gear change and the abruptness (or lack thereof) of the clutch engagement, I don't want the car regardless of its other charms."

Sign me up.

I'll follow the transmission, rather than the car. So far, I still have a reasonable number of choices. Time will tell how it'll shake out, over the next 5-10 years.

andys120

DSGs appeal to three of the four classes you cited. Do you really think that 10 or 12% that falls into the last category will be catered to for very long.

BTW there's one more class

5)Those who would drive a three pedal car if they were physically able but are pleased to have an option that gives them the car control advantages of the traditional "stick" without a significant penalty. I belong in this one. It's bigger than you think and getting bigger all the time thanks to the aging of the population.

shipo

"DSGs appeal to three of the four classes you cited. Do you really think that 10 or 12% that falls into the last category will be catered to for very long."

Yes, by a few manufacturers, and that's all I require. ;-)

"BTW there's one more class..."

Yes, I'm well aware of this class (I have a handicapped daughter who's ability to drive a stick is still in question), however, I don't believe that the population of "those who would if they could" is all that great. I'm not trying to say that there aren't lots of folks out there who cannot drive a stick for physical reasons; however, I believe that the vast majority of those folks wouldn't drive one even if they could.

Regarding my daughter, she was born hemiplegic as a result of a neonatal stroke, and is partially paralyzed on her left side. The reason I say that her ability to drive a stick is still in question is that she is only ten, and so far she has taken on gymnastics, ballet and modern dance to help improve her left leg strength and abilities and piano and violin (best in her class) to improve her left arm and hand's strength and dexterity. I'm thinking that if she can play violin, there is a pretty good chance that she'll be able to drive a stick too. Time will tell. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

cdnpinhead

"Regarding my daughter, . . ."

I have one as well, after three sons. We all have hopes & aspirations for our offspring, and it doesn't always turn out the way you thought it might, in earlier years.

Sounds like you're doing a fine job. I hope to be able to do as well.

shipo

I hope I'm misreading your post. Are you saying that you have a daughter or a daughter who's had a stroke? I pray the former.

Best Regards,
Shipo

cdnpinhead

Issues, starting in her first year of university but, thank God, not a stroke. She enjoys her manual Prelude.

Hang in there.

shipo

Whew! I'm hanging... ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

jeffyscott

Do you really think that 10 or 12% that falls into the last category...

Given that the total number of manual transmission buyers in the US is 10-12%, at best, that last group is certainly nowhere near 10-12%. My guess would be more like 1-2%...meaning something like 10-20% of manual transmission buyers.

andys120

One thing I have always believed is that there is a little bit of Mario Andretti in every single person who elects to drive a stick-shift even if it's something as un-racy as an econo-box.

But now with most race and rally cars going to a two-pedal set-up that becomes a little less certain.

You can be in touch with your inner Mario (or Schumacher) with
two pedals, or three. :confuse: