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One of my cars used ATF in a manual transmission, so I don't know what to make of that. I think that fluid cushions the gears somehow.
A regular auto never has a direct coupling, it is always using hydraulic pressure. A CVT works with belts and pulleys etc to vary the gear ratio. It has to be relatively efficient, it seems like MPGs are better than an auto.
I think doing a dyno test with a Mini with a 6 speed and a Mini with a CVT would be a good start, or with Altimas.
What about the lock-up modes? I don't really know what the means, but had assumed it meant a solid connection was established.
Although it was universally acknowledged that the DSG will be replacing/augmenting the Tiptronic in future Porsche offerings, it was similarly universally acknowledged that the manual transmission is here to stay, at least with Porsche. This isn't a matter of old school diehards fighting newfangled technology. I'm guessing that I was 10-15 years older than the average age at the table. Rather, it was the case of being honest about the subjective limitations of engineering in recreating a highly interactive, visceral driving experience.
Every one of the Porsche engineers at the table (5), all of whom were either accomplished amateur or professional drivers, said that there is no other sports car by Porsche that they would rather own than the new GT3. RWD, not AWD - and it ONLY comes with a 6-speed manual.
Maybe these few old rich guys are teaching their kids. But how many of these kids will become old rich guys, themselves? How many of those will want to drive a manual, when they are old rich guys? Some will likely decide it is too much trouble, others will decide they would rather spend their time and money on a yacht, playing polo, gambling, or...
Anyway, I don't think any of us naysayers are claiming there will be zero availability of manual transmissions in our lifetimes. Instead, we think we are seeing the beginning of the end of the manual transmission in mainstream cars.
In 2020, yes, you will probably be able to buy a manual transmission in a Porsche. But, will you be able to buy one in a new Accord? My guess would be no.
The other vehicles will be hybrid/biodiesel with telemetry that makes them autonomous.
Right now I think it is a race between the US and Asia to see who will replace the manual in the mainstream first. I believe the US is ahead. But there has been a strong outcry by the wold press to find a solution to what people perceive as the oil crises and as we look at the proposed solutions most of them include less driver participation and more technology. Even when I look to one of Asia's solutions to the fuel problem I see lots of sub 1000cc city cars with CVT transmissions.
The future only looks different to most people. It looks dark or bleak only if you use words like driving feel and human connection. You can put those words on a engineers drawing and you can't show them on a sales chart. Those words sure don't mean anything to the greenies of the world.
Hey! I resemble that remark.
There is nothing bleak about greenies, bio diesel is not a threat to driving enjoyment! E320 cdi, corvette diesel, euro BMW 5d- all great performance vehicles.
Plus the greenies want you in a manual. Better mileage, fewer manufactured parts.
As emission techonology moves forward it is easier to control what a cars engine does by computer if the computer is selecting the gears.
Also automatics have almost the same mileage as manuals now. I think in a few cars the auto has higher mileage.
Cruise control is the culprit. The manual needs to be geared short enough to never loose speed going uphill fully loaded with cruise. That means the other 99.9% of the the time the engine is revving too high.
I would be okay with a buzzer or something that told me to downshift on steep grades using cruise control. Adaptive cruise control already had functions where it alerts drivers if it needs input from them.
For those that wish to have some influence over their own activities and the equipment that they own, and who can bring a modicum of competence to the table, automation is an incunberence. Automation holds everone to the lowest common denominator. Worse, automatic controls cannot avail themselves of the broader sensory abilities of a human driver nor can they anticipate conditions ahead and respond proactively. And automation tends to be one-dimensional: you can achieve minimum emissions OR minimum fuel consumption OR maximum acceleration OR whatever ... but automation is not good at prioritizing responses in a dynamic environment. Yes, I value low emissions and fuel consumption but when an emergency occurs, I don't give a whit about either.
As the number of manuals in the US continue to drop off the number of young people learning to drive manuals will decrease. The fewer young drivers asking for manuals the fewer manuals will be offered. As we opt for multipal CD changers, power options and video display dash boards the pleasure of driving becomes less about feel and more about comfort and entertainment.
The real culprit isn't cruise control, ABS, Rev-limiters, Skid control or any other automated device. It is the inability of the engineer to design a "average" driver. All you have to do to see the future of the manual is look at you local car lot, watch you local late night news or look at the direction Nissan seems to be going in. I can see someone posting in this room in ten years saying, Remember when Nissan offered manuals? Now they don't in the Maxima or Maruno. They offer the CVT in the Altima, and the Sentra and I for one wouldn't be surprised if neither of them offer a manual in ten years.
I don't think cruise control is the culpret. The first couple of cars I owned didn't even have cruise control as an option and the manual transmission versions were still geared shorter than their automatic counterparts.
But more importantly, I disagree about your "revving too high" comment. My 911S consistently gets 26+ mpg on the highway at 70 mph at 2,750 rpm. It's got plenty of get up and go for passing and achieves it's top speed of 182 at just short of it's 7,200 rpm redline (no, I haven't tested). Perfect gearing. The Corvette, in an attempt to get favorable EPA ratings, lugs along at about 1,500 rpm in 6th at 70 mph and has to be downshifted 1-2 gears for any acceleration. All to get an EPA rating of 28. Stupid gearing, IMO.
My former Honda S2000 got 30-33 mpg on the highway at 70 mph with the top down and revving along at nearly 4,000 rpm.
I was told when I bought my 1995 Nissan Maxima that, if I wanted the engine to last, I should not let the rpms drop below 2,000-2,400 rpm. That's where the engine starts to lug and fuel is not burned as efficiently and deposits form. At its 150k mile service, I had it compression tested and the results were within a couple percent of brand new car tolerances in each cylinders.
I think the attept to eek out an extra 1 mpg at 70 mph by extra tall gearing is counterproductive in engines that redline at 7,000+ rpm and hit peak torque at 4,500 rpm. As a matter of fact, a friend with a Masters in ME from Duke went so far as to show calculations that put the peak efficiency of such engines at 35% to 40% of redline.
Boaz, California is a special case. With the emissions laws they are passing, everyone is going to be cruising around in electric Smart cars with their children and belongings strapped to the outside.
Well, that or they will exacerbate the loophole for commercial vehicles and everyone will have a Kenworth SUV for their family car and a moped for the other car.
As our society spends inrreasing amounts of time in cars that are increasingly automatic, will we evolve into creatures with atrophied left legs? Or with enlarged thumbs from the use of paddle shifters? Or............
Now THAT is doom and gloom!
You mean like the Governator's "green" Hummer??
Like I've said before, if half of the greenies had more than half a brain, we'd all be twice as well off. I read a recent white paper that estimated that building 1-2 new nuclear power plants per year for 7-10 years (15 total, starting in 2012, since there is a long approval lead time) would reduce greenhouse gas emissions more than taking 50% of the passenger vehicles off the road completely. Not just converted to hybrids or biodiesel. GONE. But thanks to the ever so idiotic opponents of nuclear power, we have more fossil fuel power plants approved or under construction today than anytime in the past two decades.
If those blundering fools think a manual vs. automatic transmission makes anything more than a snots difference, they should have a gas mask attached to my exhaust pipe so they can be put out of their misery - and ours.
Daysaler. Well you are correct. I also bemoan any other state having to be controlled by California policies. But that is pretty much the take the ten or so states are taking after the court ruling that the EPA should be controlling greenhouse gases. It may be under review but States like California are pushing hard for the Feds to adopt CARB air standards. Not a good thing if you are a diesel proponant. Now because they were willing to give hybrid owners a tax break for the first few years I was pulling for a tax break on one of those Electric carts like they use for security at football games and race tracks. Now that I am not commuting such a vehicle would bee cool for around town driving. I live in a very small town. With the Hybrid mentality I would feel at ease asking other tax payers for the funds to help me buy it and for our local businesses to allow me to charge the thing on their power and then it might be worth the cost to park my car.
(Notice at no time did my tongue leave my cheek while typing this message.)
Now, you're talking! -- 8-20 forward speeds and multiple reverses, all chosen by hand.
Now boaz old chum, just because you aren't on board with the politics, don't get overly down in the mouth. There are quite a number of automakers that expect to have 50-state diesels on the market in California within one little year. Come on, the future is GREEN! :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I once thought about that myself. But I didn't realize you could register one here. All I ever see anymore is diesel Pickups and some big Vans.
But I also know you can't bring a out of state vehicle that will not meet California emmisions standards because they won't register it. So if the diesel is from out of state can you still register it here if it was manufacturered after the passenger car diesel restrictions?
That won't help much with the manual issue. All of the MB diesels I have seen were automatics.
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It doesn't mention cars bought while not a California resident but I believe it is less strict, not more.
I'm guessing those would all be okay... (emphasis on the guessing part)
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I take that to mean that any car brought in, has to pass the standard it was originally designed for. This would apply to non-CARB gas vehicles, as well.
Which makes me think the only requirement for a CA resident would be to buy a used diesel, with over 7500 miles.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/NonCAVeh/NonCAVeh.pdf
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I think a used diesel vehicle would be the same.
I think the only restrictions are on new vehicles.
But, I could be wrong... It's just that I've always heard there was a booming market for used diesel VWs in California.. I don't think that would be the case, if you couldn't get them smogged..
regards,
kyfdx
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That eliminates the main point of owning a manual transmission for most, which is the fun factor. When I drove a manual, shifts were most often probably at 4000-5000 rpm and higher at times. I certainly never shifted at 2000 rpm. Even with an automtic, I am not interested in driving like a 95 year old grandma.
i short-shift 1st->2nd gear on both of my manual cars, one very underpowered, the other very overpowered.
the underpowered one is a TDI and there's "nobody home" in the upper-rpm range anyway.
the other is overpowered/crazy-torque and has 1->4 skipshift (GM). shortshifting avoids the forced 1->4 skipshift so i can decide on my own which shifts to skip:
on both cars i shortshift 1->2, and often rev lots in 2nd gear, then skipping to 4th or 5th if the speed is right.
mpg does not appear to suffer, compared to what others report. i did get pulled over once for doing that in front of a city cop, accelerating to 49 mph in 40 zone. he just warned me. he said "everyone drives 50 here, don't worry about that. i pulled you over because you accelerated so quickly". i was first in line of cars, and was a bit late to an MD appt. for real!
i've read some reports that indicate that best mpg is achieved by zooming up to desired speed as quickly as possible and getting into "top" gear. in other words - a jackrabbit start can actually provide best mpg in certain conditions! "who knew?". this can be done in a car with automatic trans too. and obviously it's "debatable" whether it wastes or conserves fuel.
I'm not sure I believe it either but my BMW ('00 528iA) is the only car I've owned where I've been able to beat the EPA numbers CONSISTENTLY. They estimate 18/26 and I usually get @ least 23/29, today I got 30.5 on a 70 mile round trip about half of which was on the highway.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
from what i've seen and understand, a savvy manual-trans driver can usually get at least marginally better mpg than an auto-trans driver, all else being equal.
when BMW offers a manual-trans car with diesel engine in USA, i'll buy one in a jiffy. until then, probably no BMWs for me unless i have yet another mid-life-crisis (mid-geezer-crisis?) and trade my GTO-naro for an M5 or M3.
cheers & keep the shiny side up, peeps !
I routinely get indicated mileages like that on 250-300 mile highway trips though and I've measured it the old-fashioned way and I figure that the actual mpg is about 1 MPG less.
I'm not claiming an A/T will deliver better gas mileage than a stick just that there isn't that much difference, particularly on the highway.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Wow, a real engineer, or at least someone who knows all the right things to say. Welcome! Logic doesn't always (usually?) work around here, but thanks for the input.
You are, of course, correct. However, that "driven properly" thing is likely to raise one or two hackles. I enjoy manuals for a number of reasons, and agree with what you've said, but I still run the engine up to 4 or 5K from time to time, or (rarely) to red line. The other 99.7% of the time I shift anytime I approach 3K & don't want to demand anything out of the engine if it's turning under 2K.
The primary point (nut) of this is that the manual offers the option to do whatever you want, when you want, how you want and, as you pointed out, to do it efficiently.
I especially liked the water-cooling bit.
Well done!
There are lots of other transmissions that let you do that you know.
True, there are still older-style automatics out there without manual gates (come ON Ford!) but they're getting fewer. And I don't want to buy a car without at least SOME manual-shift capability, whether it's an auto with a gate or a DSG....or a CVT with a gate, really want to try one of those; they're supposed to be very quick-reacting.
There's a few different technologies you are mixing together in there. Boy-racer-pretend-I'm-shifting slush boxes will hold a gear until they dont feel like it and then shift, and they will downshift once they feel like it after you tell them. If thats all you need, and most drivers are in that category, bless you.
If you are talking about a DSG, again, if there is a computer between you and it, you aren't doing anything but moving some electrons.
If you want a "gated shifter" on a CVT, you don't understand how a CVT works. There is no shifting.
Personally, I find 3 pedals and a knob connected to linkage which phsyically moves gears together very efficient, and satisfying to boot.
How does an automatic shift from 5th directly to third?
Buck the trend, people! ;-)
This is NOT a diesel thread, boaz, but take heart: Honda will have their new 50-state diesel out in the Accord next year, and then probably the CRV soon after (and the Accord, at least, offers a manual), VW will have its 50-state diesel ready to go for the full line of cars, Mercedes BlueTec will be 50-state by then, and even little Subaru (another big participant in the build-manuals mission) will have a diesel the year after that.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Like I said, the GOOD slushbox/manual-override combos won't do anything unless you tell them to, including hold a gear as long as you want. If you don't know how to pick a good one, that's your fault.
In your own words, that's all most people need. That's why manual transmissions are disappearing from the mainstream. They're no longer needed. If you want REAL "driver involvement" then get something without power steering or brakes, and make sure it's got a crank starter while you're at it.
So if the unit is constantly adjusting ratios for peak performance, why would someone want to interfere with that? If the whole argument is the peak efficiency (either for power or fuel economy) and it can constantly adjust on the fly, why would you want to mess that up?
I don't know of a single slushbox/manumatic that will downshift on demand, unless it decides its okay. I know of very few that will hold a gear to redline.
As far as "picking a good one," I did, 3 pedals, 5 forward gears, and I pick when and where it goes into each one.
Also, how does an automatic allow you to hang around in neutral for awhile as a situation develops (may need to continue to coast to a stop, may need to accelerate from any of a number of speeds), then stick it in the gear you want, gently engage the clutch & accelerate, or not, as the case demands?
Then there's always that "how much does it cost to fix?" thing and, for the new ones, does anyone really know how to work on them? &, assuming you can find anyone who does, will repair parts be available anytime in the next three months? All of which are subsets of the "how likely are they to break?" question. From what I've heard, when one of these new beauties packs up, it's time to remove & replace it, with the "defective unit" sent back to where it came from. This has happened regularly with 5, 6 & 7 speed automatics over the past 5 or so years, too. Oh boy.
Once the alphabet-soup transmissions have run consistently to & above 150K miles with only fluid changes, I'll feel they will at least have the durability thing going for them that modern automatics most assuredly do not.