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Well, there's this 4-door Mitsubishi sedan that was just released that stole the 828/2's thunder plumb cold. I have participated in this forum for months and occasionally post my thoughts on enjoying stick shift manual tranny's, etc., etc.
On 03/21/07 I headed northwest on I-10 to Avondale, just west of Phoenix. I was stood up by a boneheaded salesman from Tucson who failed to show for a test-drive appointment I made with him over the phone, that was for a day 5 days before this day. Well, this other dealer another 120 miles northwest of Tucson said they had a '08 Rally Red Mitsubishi Lancer GTS with the Sun and Sound package and a 5-speed manual tranny. Whoo-hoo!
My wife catches me on my cell before I pull out of Willcox and says "I'm coming along!" All-righty-then.
I tell her of the virtues of the '08 Lancer GTS on I-10 as we cruise in our beloved '01 Kia Sportage 4x4. She is starting to buy into this lovely Lancer idea with me.
We get there and are greeted by the sales manager.
"You must be _ _ _ _ _."(iluvmysephia1!!!!!)
"Yes, I am am! I heard that you have a '08 Mitsu Lancer GTS with the Sun and Sound package and 5-speed tranny."
Immediate stress and dissatisfaction filled the outside air in front of their showroom.
"Ummm...nope..we don't have one with a 5-speed tranny. We do have one with the CVT paddle-shifter though!"
"But I was told over the phone that you..."
"Well take a look at this car, though!"
We walked in to the showroom and I saw the '08 Lancer in Rally Red. That was it gentlemen! We test drove it and my wife started stating her interest in learning to drive with this car...blah-blah-blah...still, I was starting to buy into the Rally Red racer with paddle-shifters.
Now, I left with my one intention of getting a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS with the optional Sun and Sound package and 5-speed manual transmission.
"And _ _ _ _(our son who lives near Seattle)can drive it, too!"
OK, I was melting and falling head over heels by now with this beautiful new car from Japan. BTW-it's my first Japanese car purchased. I had to see what the stink was all about and now I know. This car is awesome and paddle shifting can be had, like was mentioned in an earlier post recently, or, one can just pop it in 'D' for automatic drive and just enjoy the ride.
Oh, the sunroof is supreme and the Rockford Fosgate 650-watt stereo with the subwoofer in the trunk is an ear-splitting blast back to 70's Ted Nugent and Foghat concerts. We have not quite hit 1,000 miles on the Lancer and are thrilled with our purchase.
BTW-it's too early to tell if I would say that I would never again buy a manual-trannied car. I'm thrilled with my Lancer but not totally off me rocker..at least IMHO I'm not!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
You can really flip those paddles quickly...the sedan seems to dig getting paddle-shifted and it inspires you to feed it more and more.
I had tried to imagine myself paddle-shifting the Obvio! 828/2 and really thought I might dig that little colorful Brazilian ant-sized car...but Mitsu just designed this Lancer GTS for 2008 so tightly I couldn't refuse it.
Du-du-du...another one bites the dust. What are your thoughts, nippon? What are ya shoppin' for these days?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Oldest trick in the book. You shoulda' laughed nastily in that guy's face and got right back on I-10. Phoeniz is only another hour and a half on I-10, and do you EVEN KNOW how many Mitsu dealers they must have in a town that large? :-(
I'm keeping my eye on the new Impreza model. I had one eye on the Smart car but it is now out of the running due to it being official that there wil only be the one transmission choice: automated manual.
If the mood strikes and the reliability on gen-II is better, Mini is still in the distant running. If I do go that route, it will definitely be the manual.
And good Toyota dealers near my house have heard from my lips in the past that I will no longer shop them because they don't stock manuals. It's really as simple as that.
Luckily Honda and Subaru dealers are pretty good in general about stocking manual shifts.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Heck, just add a dummy clutch pedal and replace the paddles with a dog-leg and the rest of the manual fans can be happy too. I'm sure they can find a way to electronically tie the dummy clutch pedal into the CVT and make it shudder or stall, if you don't get the timing right. It'll feel just like a real clutch. Then you could flip a switch and turn off your clutch simulator, if you want full auto mode.
I suppose like the carbeurated engine died when fuel injection came a long it just might be time for the manual to pass away also. :surprise:
Rocky
Good question. I drove a CVT equipped Mini and quickly discovered there was no point in using the "manual" feature since the CVT "automatically" keeps the engine in the sweet spot.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
"I suppose the carbureted engine died when fuel injection came along it might just be time for the manual to pass away also."
You have just offended several Edmunds' posters, there, man.
nippon...my decision wasn't one under duress...though I did talk the manual talk for many, many moons it was the combination of having a rig my wife felt comfortable in and felt she could drive(it's hard to believe but there's some of us who are..umm...scared of driving)and that my son, who doesn't drive stick, would dig driving when coming over to SE Arizona to visit us.
Oh, it is easier to talk on the cell and stuff food into my face now whilst driving also.
Yikes...I've become one of......them. :surprise:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Bought a Silverado reg cab shorty last fall. It was a case of "I've always wanted one of those".
Miracle of miracles, the local dealer has a broad selection of short trucks (get it?) and I got to test-drive three of them.
First the manual shifter with the V6. Oh boy. All the thrashy goodness of the 3/4 350 comes through in its full grit and glory. Secondly, it's a truck with a 1,600 lb. payload, and it's sprung accordingly. Bouncy bouncy, wiggly wiggly, with one foot in the air and the opposite hand on the five-foot shift lever. On our wonderful MI roads. Thanks but no thanks. Great out in the boonies but a pain in town. Also, given how I drive, I'm convinced I'll get better mileage with the auto.
Next, I drove the 4.8l auto and hated it. It was trying hard to be a Lexus, which is fine in a Buick (maybe) but ridiculous in a work truck.
Third, I tried a V6 auto and bought it. Granted, a big part of the appeal of the auto is that I can drive with my wife and 8-year-old in the truck, but in the end, I'd have figured it out with the stick as well. It just was not a good fit for the vehicle.
So there you have it. Die-hard stick driver (ditto the wife) stepped over the manual to buy an auto. But I really miss the stick and am contemplating ditching that truck... neighbor just offered a '94 Ranger 4.0 4x4 5sp, yay.
In the end, I'll probably get another 1st gen Vibe with a manual before they stop making them. That was a fun car.
And I don't think that I'll ever pick any automatic over a stick for reasons of performance, or quicker shifts, or whatever. I enjoy the control more than anything else.
-Mathias
Just saw the new Tundra at the Irwindale race track last weekend. Nice looking truck for a change. But of the ten they had on display not one was a manual. Will the Tundra come with a manual option or is the manual standard and they only order automatics?
You were right about Nissan simply replacing the old automatics with the CVT. Stopped by our local Nissan dealer to see the new Altima. Just like you predicted nine out of ten were CVTs. I will be surprised if anything but the 350 Z has a manual in 5 years.
boaz, old chum, that Toyota dealer is the one where I get most of my servicing done, and every time I get a new car, the service writer (upon my first visit) says to me "so you bought it here?", to which I reply "no, because you don't stock manuals". I make a point of saying this loud enough so the sales manager, whose office is just around the corner, can hear it. Luckily, the next dealer over always stocks manuals, and they always get my business.
As for "talk the talk, and not walk the walk", there are too many out there...
:mad:
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Once every car has a automatic or a psuedo-stick or whatever, there will be even less to distinguish what is already a commodity item. They used to use HP numbers, but they got in trouble for "optimizing" those, then they used MPG numbers and again those ratings were "revised."
People will pick the cheapest thing that meets the needs and it will be the equivalent of buying a kitchen appliance.
Then there will be 2 or maybe 3 big companies that make Bland Box Small, Bland Box Medium, and Bland Box Large, and a dozen or so smaller manufacturers (probably Chinese companies that bought defunct European car makers) that make fun to drive dinky cars with real sticks as a nostalgia thing.
MT is the BW of the automotive world.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Hey, even if new car sales profits are a small part of the mix, I figure they are in the business for SOME reason, right? Given that, I consider the sales and service departments to be separate businesses at most dealerships anyway. The one with the manuals in stock for sale has a crappy service department that I wouldn't use if they paid me.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Six-speed automatic; only way it comes. I've spent maybe ten minutes in it, plus the test-drive time in all the other players, and my observation is that in this class of vehicle, from Kia to BMW to Land Rover to Audi, a manual would not only be a complete waste, but utterly antithetical.
Considering the penetration of the class, it's not at all hard to understand why there are so many automatics out there by percentage...
And considering that since the Explorer and 80's Cherokee appeared on the scene, the vast majority of Americans are in love with and have pursued just that.
A wagon by any other name...
I've extolled the virtues of wagons for an awfully long time. They're generally better balanced than their sedan counterparts, look better IMO, and certainly offer vastly more utility, even in the most sporting of trims.
Now, if the country as a whole could just get off the "high-driving-postion" kick, we'd all be in for more fun, manual or not.
BTW, make mine DSG. It's what performance is about...
That's B.S., at least with respect to the "precision" part. Explain to me how you would "feather" a DSG? Or skip gears in a downshift? Have you ever even driven a high end DSG?
There is no doubt that the better SMG's and DSG's out there are a better performance alternative to the slushbox automatic. But no accomplished drivers I know would take one over a manual transmission on a street legal sports car. One that is capable of 1.1 g's in turns. Comparisons to a 3.0+ g Formula One racecar is as absurd as suggesting we should all rim our wheels with rubber that lasts 150 miles for better handling.
My wife is giving me the 2 day Porsche performance driving school for my birthday. Can't enroll period unless you know how to drive a stick.
What still amazes me among those that seem to be proponents of SMG and DSG technology is their apparant disregard for the simple cost benefit analysis. High end SMG's and DSG's are expensive to purchase - Porsche's DSG will likely run $5k; Ferrari's SMG runs $10k. They are also likely to be very expensive to repair or replace if anything goes wrong. I have heard numerous reports of BMW SMG's getting gremlins and not shifting as intended. Unless the benefit to this cost and risk was very significant, why bother? And, from what I have experienced driving several of the better alternatives, the best they can offer is slightly faster upshifts, slower downshifts and lousy "feel" and feedback compared to a manual.
Too many Game Boy junkies out there, IMO.
You may be right. And I would add you may have hit the nail on the head. Where have the majority of new young drivers learned about "manual" transmissions? Is there a third pedal on a game boy? And who are the new designers of automobiles and transmissions today? Not a lot of Boomers left still working.
More than likely you are typing on a keyboard designed by someone that wasn't alive when you learned to drive. Our word processing programs spell for us. Our spread sheets do our math for us. I don't even have to dial my cell phone anymore if I don't want to. I sure don't have to push anything to answer. I didn't ask for it nor did I design it but it was offered on the new phone and I bought it. It is hard to resist technology and if the manufacturers embrace it and madison avenue promotes it people sooner or later come over to it. Just how life works.
There are people who still stress "feel" but that is something that only the person describing it can qualify.
Good luck on your driving course.
You and some others have been getting some mileage out of the shortcomings of the BMW SMG transmissions. Let me tell you that everything that I've seen would indicate that you are right.
SMGs are apparently jerky, unreliable and poorly designed. BMW knows this and are said to be working on a twin-clutch system similar to the VW-Audi DSG system.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Think about it this way; if somebody was to build a "Tri-Clutch Sequential" (TCS) transmission, then said transmission could always have the next gear up AND the next gear down staged and ready to go. That will in turn result in MUCH less work on the part of the transmission as it wouldn't need to try and guess which gear to have staged and waiting upon the driver to pull the trigger. If the driver says "Up" then the clutch with the up gear gets the call, if the driver says "Down" then the clutch to the other side goes to work.
In the case of a 6-Speed transmission, you could mount gears 1 & 4 on the first cluster, gears 2 & 5 on the second and gears 3 & 6 & R on the third. That would of course instantly give you enough flexibility to do an eight speed tranny with a 1-4-7, a 2-5-8, and 3-6-R configuration.
Technologically slick though the above may be, gimme a 6-Speed with an honest-to-God clutch pedal and I'll be happy as a pig in, ummm, errr, fresh mud. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Seriously, in the time it takes you to think about the skip shift, the DSG can make the shift. Try it.
Again, most of the "naaah" is coming from corners near totally unfamiliar (hands on) with the product...
This is because of the strong surge of popularity of automatics in the growing Asian market. Only the Europeans are standing by the ol' dogleg, sainted global citizens that they are! ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You know you make me laugh? I can honestly see you hanging in there till the last manual for a normal car ceases to be made.
The last time we had any Japanese students, college age and able to drive, they were amazed we advanced Americans had any manuals at all. But they are far more into gadgets then we are. Our last student had a watch that had a built in translator in case he forgot some word. All of my watches are analog.
There is a reason we call Europe "Old World" you know? :P
I'm a manual fan. Still have a manual car in my stable that I love without question and love to drive. My daily driver now is DSG equipped.
That said, this talk about DSG shifting - Look, there is no way to match the speed of the DSG (at least Audi/VW as that's the one I'm familiar with) shifts. These are lighting quick shifts, that even when going down 3 gears, I don't see how I could match it with a manual on even my best day while hopped up on 10 expresso's.
Seems like the "sequential" part is a focus of the attack on it, but I've never seen a lag from that.
One thing that is going to take a lot of the skill out of launching the car is the "Launch Control" that you can now use on some of the DSG's. Rather than having to time a good clutch drop at the optimal RPM with a "regular" manual (something that is fun to master I must say) - now you can just put it in sport mode, hold the break, floor the accellerator (which the engine revs to a preset RPM), release the break and you're off. Tough to beat, but does take a lot of the skill, variables and fun out of a good launch.
Oh and to throw gasoline on the fire, I view the DSG as an "automated manual transmission" (how's that for an oxymoron!) and not an "automatic". For the record, I still can't stand how slushboxes "feel".
That's because that's what it is. A regular automatic (slushbox) transmission has a liquid filled torque converter (hence the slush). Automated sequential-manuals don't have it. They're literally the next evolution of a manual tranny, with a computer-controlled clutch added on (and sometimes an automated shifting mode, but there are some that don't have it).
Most of the "manumatics" on the other hand are just automatic transmissions with a manual override, which is a very different thing, though I can see how it might muddy the waters a bit.
Call it what you like, there is no real debate as to what to call these transmissions as the English language is very specific.
Simple litmus test:
- Can the transmission select for itself the proper gear for all forward driving regimens? Yes. ==> Automatic transmission.
- Can the driver select either a fully automatic mode or a mode where the driver MUST trigger a gear change event at all times? Yes. ==> Automatic transmission.
- Must the driver initiate all shift events via a computer regardless of mode? Yes ==> Semiautomatic transmission.
- Must the driver initiate all shifts by actuating a mechanical, hydro mechanical or cable operated clutch assembly prior to mechanically forcing a gear change? Yes. ==> Manual transmission.
If you don't believe me, get the dictionary out yourself and look the words up. As for an "automated manual", nope, no such a construct in our language. It's either a gearbox that has been automated to some degree or a gearbox that has no such automation, and only the latter can be called a "Manual Transmission".
Best Regards,
Shipo
Torque converter - Automatic transmission
No torque converter, computer controlled clutch - automated manual (sequential) transmission. Can be partially or fully automated.
No torque converter, clutch pedal - fully manual transmission
No torque converter, no gears - CVT
There are 4 types of transmission now. One of them is a further evolution of the classic manual-type transmission, and is referred to as such to give credit to it's heritage. Get over it.
The important difference is an automatic is designed as an automatic and will always be an automatic. Sequentials start as manual transmissions, and then have some automation added on.
I still strongly prefer the real manual transmission in my VW.
btw, the minicooper CVT was so horribly annoying that I almost never drove that car, even though it was probably the best handling street car I've ever driven.
2 cents...
The words "automatic" and "manual" are at opposite ends of the spectrum, like it or not. A transmission, regardless of construction that can shift for itself is by definition an "Automatic Transmission". Get over it. ;-)
If you want to call the SMGs and DSGs of the world "Sequential Automatic Transmissions", well, that works. A DSG is a sequential automatic and a typical motorcycle transmission is a sequential manual. That works too. Calling something an "automated manual" simply won't work and, popular appellation or not, will not stand the test of time because it is absolutely incorrect usage of our language.
Regarding your list of transmissions above, you're mixing qualifiers. A torque converter has NOTHING to do with whether the transmission is an "Automatic" or not. Consider this; in the past there have been torque converter equipped transmissions that REQUIRED the driver to trigger a gear change event. By your definition that would be an "Automatic Transmission", however, that is absolutely incorrect; such a transmission would fall under the classification of "Semiautomatic Transmission".
Like it or not, the only classes of transmissions that are well enough named so that they can be properly identified are "Manual Transmissions" and for the most part "CVTs". I say "for the most part" because things like the old Chevy PowerGlide transmission were for all intents and purposes fluid coupled implementations of a CVT transmission. The only thing preventing the PowerGlide from being a true CVT (from a language perspective) is the fact that it had two actual gear ratios. IIRC, if one were to look far enough back in automotive history, you will come upon a fluid coupled transmission with one forward gear and one reverse gear. What's not CVT about that?
Best Regards,
Shipo
"Different things professor, just like an oil "pan" doesn't have a handle or cook anything."
Check the definition in the dictionary. A "pan" doesn't need to have a handle, a lid or any requirement to cook anything.
"That's why CVTs can't be fluid-coupled, since a fluid-coupled transmission is referred to in industry terminology as an Automatic (even though a CVT is also a form of automated transmission)."
Sort of agree, and that's why I listed it as one of the two transmission types that was well enough named. That said, there is no technological reason in the world why a CVT couldn't be implemented via a fluid coupling as opposed to a pulley system.
"The English language in this case doesn't provide simple phraseology to differentiate these different types easily, so the industry has adopted particular terms to mean particular things."
Nope, gotta differ with you again. One of the main reasons why the English language is so successful is because it DOES provide for simple phraseology to differentiate these different types easily. As for the industry adopting silly appellations such as "automated manual". Please, show me one SAE document that refers to DSG like transmissions as "automated manuals". The fact is that the industry has it correct, they call them "Semiautomatics" or "Sequential Automatics" or they simply use one of the names given to a specific brand such as saying something like "...in reference to DSG like transmissions...". It's the public that has adopted names like "automated manual", and sooner or later, the true industry terms will make their way into the popular vernacular.
"English IS a constantly-evolving language you know."
See my last sentence from above. Oh, and this is one of the other main reasons why English is so successful and why the French hate it so much that they’ve actually outlawed “Franglish” from being spoken over the public airwaves.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Boaz old chum, I think you're right about that. At my last car purchase, I wanted to get a car that exceeds my Echo's 40 mpg, but the only two on the market that achieve this goal are hybrids - Civic and Prius, and neither has an available manual, so after wrestling with it, I regretfully went with the next best choice, because it still has a manual (my new Matrix).
I am very hopeful that by the next time I buy a car, we will have some of the new 50-state diesels available here in California, and that there will be at least one or two with a manual (probably the VWs - can I hope for a stick shift Civic or Accord by then as well?). If there aren't, then I guess there is no ULEV diesel in my future either...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I don't care what you call it. DSG is not SMG or TCA. It's a pair of clutches applied to two banks of gears, and it gives you manual selection and application of gears at your discretion. It shifts faster and more cleanly than humans can and allows virtually continuous power flow through the shift, which is something no three-pedal can do.
Three pedal pursuit is becoming almost entirely a matter of simple personal preference. Performance, economy and durability advantages have all but been erased from the equation (if one is realistic about it), which leaves a small cost difference. We're not talking that horse feathers about track cars or F1, or even M3s and 5s but mainstream John Q. Public cars here. There is no ridiculous $5K-$10K price tag on DSG. One buys a three-pedal at any range above the barest minimum only because one enjoys it.
But, even with something so nasty as a torque converter, yesterday's observation on my part is that I can conceive of no advantage whatsoever in the SUV/SAV/CUV class to a manual. I spent three weeks in and out of virtually every entry out there from $30K-$60K other than a Cayenne, and no matter how well set up they are, this is not a class in which one finds anything close to driving fun as I define it!
You could have a M3 or M5 in a road course and while your rowing your gears working up a sweat like a old geezer, I'll be concentrating at what point I'm going to lap dat [non-permissible content removed] with a grin !!!! :P
My generation will kill off the manual, for better technology like your generation did the carbeurated motor.
Rocky
"It seems that those that think of the transmission as being the stick they see in the interior, see the DSG as being an automatic. And those that think of the transmission as what goes on mechanically inside the transmission see the DSG as a manual."
While it obviously is a bit of an over-simplification, it certainly seems to sum up the two arguments very well.
Your (our) generation is supporting NASCAR. Technology stopped there in the 60s (no comments about the GM 3.8l)...
Carbs were somewhat tricky to tune, didn't allow precise control of fuel levels and as such, combustion. They didn't like being too hot or too cold, and they didn't like elevation. Fuel injection is a better technology.
DSGs/SMGs offer less control making them less precise, while adding mechanical complexity and weight. "Slushboxes" don't even count here, and are hardly a new technology.
People live 2 hrs from work and then complain about their commutes and how they need an auto because traffic is so bad. If you and everyone else wasn't commuting 100 miles each way traffic might not be so bad. I actually think our generation is 1. lazy, 2. not that bright.
While I do see the end of the manual transmission, I don't really see it in my lifetime unless it is combination with something else (elimination of fossil fuels, everyone cruising on hydrogen, etc)
I understand they have got away from the lamentable 'luxury' brand nonsense which encourages me to believe that they may keep the manual options in their line-up and they have a boxer diesel engine slated for sometime in the next couple of years.
For what it's worth the Europeans are still manual drivers through virtually all vehicle classes and good on 'em. Luxury brands have manuals, SUV's have manuals, family cars have manuals.
I guess that when gas is 6 bucks a gallon, you do what you can to save a penny.
Ehhhh. I'll have to disagree with the DSG being less precise than the manual. I can't shift as quickly and rev-match as accurately and as often as a DSG will every time. I'm still a fan of regular manually trannies, but I don't see how one could argue that they are more precise than a DSG.
You can put me in that category, and my wife. Neither one of us will even consider a car if we can't get a manual. I simply refuse to drive an auto if I don't have to.
Only once in all my ownership have I wished for an auto. That was during a recent hurricane evacuation throught downtown Houston. 6 hours of stop, move up a car length, stop in a 99 Cobra. That heavy clutch left my leg feeling like Jello.
I'll admit I'm an oddball though. I don't eat, talk on the cell phone, change clothes, shave, or put on makeup while I drive.
I have to agree with some here that sports cars may be the last hold outs but sports cars make up a rather small portion of the automotive population. I believe economy cars will be the last mainstream cars with manuals but I don't believe we are looking at 20 years. I wonder if we have ten?
I don't see either of those as defining a transmission (or anything else) as being automatic or manual.
A door that opens without me pushing or pulling anything, by just sensing that I am in the vicinity and opening is automatic. An automatic transmission shifts gears without me pushing or pulling anything. A DSG, when in automatic mode, is clearly an automatic transmission.
If some human intervention is required, then we can argue about whether it is automatic or manual. Examples are a handicapped door that opens when you push a button, my garage door that opens when I push a button, or my automatic transmission when in manual mode that shifts when I push a button.
Automatic does not mean "includes torque converter".
By THAT "automatic" definition there's no such thing as an automatic transmission. They all have to be manually pushed into park, reverse, or drive. :P
It's nice to know I haven't lost my touch, but I'd much rather just swap transmissions with him. Until I tweak my ACL or something. :P
That is exactly what I mean. It is controlling something, not me. The "performance" DSG/SMGs I have used are either in automatic mode (which isn't terrible or anything, no worse than a regular auto) or have upshifts and downshifts that are harsh and abrupt. They are effective, not precise. If I don't feel like I have control, its not precise to me.
Well, with a mouth like that, you better bring your wallet along to back it up. It is my understanding that ALL of the fastest lap times at BMW's performance Driving School were achieved by 6-speed manual M3's, not SMG's. And the Ferrari 360/430 in manual transmission does outperform it's F1 counterpart on virtually every track that keeps record times.
Granted, the BMW's and Ferrari's are SMG's, but the infatuation with VW/Audi's DSG escapes me. The don't produce high performance sports cars, period. Grossly overweight AWD sedans don't count, in my book.
Rocky
DSG finally gives all the automatic drivers a decent transmission for their cars. But it aint no manual.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)