The Future Of The Manual Transmission

wale_bate1

"...but the infatuation with VW/Audi's DSG escapes me..."

Ordinarily I'd suggest you go spend some seat time, H1, but occasionally in this life, you come across the horse that refuses to drink.

DSG is not SMG. Until you actually put it to the test, that appreciation will continue to escape you. Now, I won't suggest that the experience will convert you; it won't. Anyone who really loves clutch-pumping/stick-yanking in itself that much isn't going to give it up for a DSG, period, which is just fine. But I have yet to meet anyone who loves to drive that has given DSG a real thorough workout who doesn't appreciate how far this takes the transmission...

seminole_kev

Nippon reminded me of a point that I forgot to mention out of all this, and a key point to me.

I don't want the DSG to replace manuals. I want the DSG to replace automatics. People who don't care about the transmission to begin with won't notice a difference, but those who want to be able to put in an automatic mode, but can't stand the performance/feel of a slushbox could benefit from it.

I'd love for the manufacturers to continue to sell manual models, just have the slushboxes replaced with DSGs.

(I have no idea why I forgot to make this statement. Maybe I have previously in this thread already???)

nippononly

the new Audi with DSG, and I think it makes a much better alternative to slush box autos, but I still fundamentally have two problems with it, both of which reared their ughly heads during the test drive, as the salesman wanted to have some "fun" and demonstrate the car's "sporty qualities".

1. If you want to downshift two gears, you can't without going through the intermediate gear.

2. If you experience a sudden change in conditions on the street, that requires you changing gears in the opposite direction from the one expected by the computer, the shift is slow and clunky.

I don't race, have never raced, don't care if the DSG is a split second faster to 60 or 100 mph than the stick. I tend to buy cars with light clutches (have never owned a Cobra, for instance!), which never cause me any difficulty in traffic. The automakers will be really letting me down when they cancel the stick shift completely. I may stop buying new...

:-(

dudleyr

Same boat here. Gotta have a stick. No stick means no new car purchase.

For the life of me I can't figure out the popularity of automatics. Driving a stick becomes as natural as breathing, and about as much effort as swinging your arms while you walk (practically none). Even the three on the tree in my '76 Volore wagon was fun to drive. People sure were suprised to see three pedals in that vehicle.

I even much prefer a stick in heavy traffic as you know what gear you are in if you need to zip ahead. Never know when the automatic will pause and think about what gear it wants.

shipo

"I don't care what you call it. DSG is not SMG or TCA. It's a pair of clutches applied to two banks of gears, and it gives you manual selection and application of gears at your discretion."

Incorrect. The DSG lets you send a signal to a computer, said computer then decides if the shift is acceptable or not, and then, IF the computer decides it's okay, IT triggers the shift for you. Spin it any way you like, that ain't "manual selection" in my book. :P

It shifts faster and more cleanly than humans can and allows virtually continuous power flow through the shift, which is something no three-pedal can do.

Only true sometimes. If for instance, you are accelerating away from a stoplight and then suddenly hang a right and at the same time lift off the throttle and call for a gear or two lower, the DSG takes it's sweet time dumping the gear it "thought" you were going to want next before it finally gets around to picking the gear you want. Geez, my seventy something year old MIL can shift faster than that (yes, she still drives a stick).

Then there are the things that a true manual setup can do that no fancy automatic has even come close to. Namely, dynamically adjusting each and every clutch engagement to best fit the driving environment.

"Three pedal pursuit is becoming almost entirely a matter of simple personal preference."

I've never suggested otherwise. What I have a problem with is the misuse of our language when folks call DSGs manual transmissions. They can shift for themselves and as such they are by definition automatic transmissions. Better than a slushbox automatic to be sure, but still automatic transmissions.

Best Regards,
Shipo

wale_bate1

"If for instance, you are accelerating away from a stoplight and then suddenly hang a right and at the same time lift off the throttle and call for a gear or two lower, the DSG takes it's sweet time dumping the gear it "thought" you were going to want next before it finally gets around to picking the gear you want..."

I can't say whether or not I've worked it under those exact circumstances, but in my experience with the unit you are dead wrong, Brother Shipo. The millisecond you lift off and select a lower gear, it's selected and executed. Get thee to a VAG dealer, says I.

"Namely, dynamically adjusting each and every clutch engagement to best fit the driving environment..."

The clutch engagement launching is sensitive to throttle input, and there's no need for feathering en route with rev-matching with continuous power application, so that goes in my NBD column. Besides, a clutch is supposed to be an binary function.

"What I have a problem with is the misuse of our language when folks call DSGs manual transmissions...

That's not even nitpicking. That's nanonitpicking with electrons. :P The big difference is the linkage. One is mechanical, one is electronic. The selection of the desired gear and the amount of power applied are entirely driver controlled. The clutch function is controlled by the box. That's an interface. No need for huge skills in manipulating the interface if the interface itself makes it unnecessary.

So the only thing that makes it not a manual (in manual mode of course) is the clutch function. Manual gear selection in the absence of a clutch pedal makes it an automatic. Good, glad we're all square there. Load of tripe, but glad we got there.

More drive, less horse feathers...

andres3

They don't make 5-speed manual Civics anymore? When did they stop?

andres3

1. If you want to downshift two gears, you can't without going through the intermediate gear.

Since Audi's DSG shifts a lot faster than any human can, then it can also shift two gears down or up at least equally as fast as any human can.

I ran into the flaw you mentioned, and yes, technically, it is a limitation manuals do not have. But, as I've described above, other than unmeasureable extra wear and tear there is no real negative effect.

The only problems I've ran into in almost 15K miles of Audi DSG use, is I've noticed on rare occassions it rev matches for too long and the engine spins too fast for too long before rocketing forward.

The other one that happens occassionally is when you are turning the tranny goes into "madman/sport" mode and doesn't shift before 4K or more on the Tach. This is annoying when your just trying to maximize gas mileage (while using the auto DSG mode).

shipo

"So the only thing that makes it not a manual (in manual mode of course) is the clutch function. Manual gear selection in the absence of a clutch pedal makes it an automatic."

I guess you didn't read my whole post. ;-)

Dude, I make my living from automating stuff. Mashing a button or a toggle switch or clicking a mouse to trigger a series of events is called Automation. In the end, you can call it what you will, but it still ain't gonna be so. A DSG is an automatic transmission that has a semiautomatic mode. Period, full stop, the end.

Best Regards,
Shipo

chadraymond5

Don't forget the aftermarket problems that come with owning a DSG, if you are an enthusiast who likes to modify your car the DSG becomes a headache due to it's inability to handle large amounts of torque. No DSG can keep up with a manual if you plan to track the car, the DSG will not let you hold power at the redline and will always upshift even when you don't want it to.

tallman1

They don't make 5-speed manual Civics anymore?

He was talking about the hybrid. The Civic still comes in a manual.

cdnpinhead

". . . durability advantages have all but been erased from the equation (if one is realistic about it). . ."

Do tell. Where do you get the data that supports such a statement?

I work in an industry in which inflated performance claims (sales guys, unite!) and promising early success often fall prey to big "issues" once rate (high-volume) production begins and the hard-knock reality of day-to-day use makes itself known.

Once these alphabet-soup transmissions show themselves capable of 125 - 200K miles of maintenance-free (beyond fluid changes) operation, I'll throw in with you. I've been stung badly by traditional automatic transmissions, and will need to be shown (pretend I'm from Missouri) that these new ones are near-bulletproof before I'd take one in preference to a manual.

Then there are the other factors that I prefer in a manual, relative to any form of an automatic, beyond durability. That's all gravy, so far as this particular discussion is concerned.

dudleyr

If your battery dies on an automatic can you push start it? :P :shades:

cdnpinhead

"Driving a stick becomes as natural as breathing . . ."

Amen, brother.

Solidarity!!

tallman1

Solidarity!!

lol... I'm with you all. And I'm one of those people who prefers to drive a stick in heavy traffic. So much easier IMHO.

cptchetco

With a manual, a good driver can improve performance and mileage by anticipating what gear is best before it is actually needed. Particularly true for off road, and amature competition, as well as heavy traffic, hard curves and lots of grade changes.

habitat1

I should have been clearer. I am aware of the difference between SMG and DSG and I am also aware of the positive press Audi's unit has received. My point was more to the fact that a DSG in an Audi TT or an A4/A6 is like giving a great pair of legs to the circus fat lady. I'd rather drive a 3 on the tree Cayman than a DSG TT as a sports car.

Although I will, for personal reasons, likely always prefer a three pedal manual, it will be interesting to see how the Audi style DSG does in Porsche's offerings. No doubt they will be a significant improvement over the slushbox based Tiptronics.

nippononly

that anyone thinks a DSG is a manual transmission - it is just an automatic without a torque converter. With all the limitations inherent in having a computer engage your gears for you. It is a great, wonderful evolution of the crap torque-converted automatic transmission, but it isn't even close to a replacement for a manual transmission.

And that was my opinion before I heard about this rev-matching, holding-the-revs-too-long thing that andres described in the VW DSG. Which is another thing that would never happen with a stick and a clutch. ;-)

john500

With electronic throttles, the holding the rev too long thing is here and very present. The type of transmission is irrelevant. I've read several complaints about "rev hang" or "rev lag" on the new Honda Civic Si's.

lilengineerboy

That is an emissions related issue. I guess keeping revs up for a few msecs gives more complete combustion and reduces emissions.

kyfdx

It is an emissions thing... The higher revs keeps raw fuel from being dumped into the exhaust..

andys120

DSG becomes a headache due to it's inability to handle large amounts of torque.

Quick someone send a memo to Porsche Engineering. IIRC they are planning to make DSG available throughout the model line.

daysailer

development EVER in automatic transmission technology!! But I must agree with Nippononly that it is NOT a manual transmission in any sense.

Just as with torque converter slushboxes, you can only request a gear change and the DSG responds AFTER a small delay. The difference is that the delay is much shorter. In a traditional manual, one anticipates the shift and engages the clutch AT the appropriate time, not afterward. The fact that the total transition time of a DSG is faster is only significant if maximum acceleration is the only objective, seldom true in real world driving.

And what of those situations where fast is of no use, such as crawling out of a snow bank or other condition which requires finesse in the application of torque to the drive wheels? DSG is then like any automatic transmission where one must surrender control to the machine and rely on TCS, STS, PDQ, ABS, K9P or whatever alphabet soup of automatic control gimmickry.

No doubt DSG is the best automatic transmission, but I still prefer to retain control.

iluvmysephia1

this conversation, let me just say this...about that. I "talked the talk" about loving my 5-speed tranny's and "only wanted" another 5-speed manual when I did finally make up my mind what I wanted to buy next.

What eventually happened was a great new sedan from Mitsubishi with the lines and curves appropriately placed hit me upside the head in the showroom. I was disappointed the 5-speed wasn't there at the very first, but with my wife's enthusiasm for the car and test-driving it to see how this new-fangled CVT transmission works, I started changing my mind.

I came to like the paddle-flipping and the car drives so nicely, that to have my wife come on-board with me on this decision at first seeing the car(I researched this car for hundreds of hours on the net, without saying too much to her about it except putting an Electric Blue '08 Lancer GTS on our computer's mainscreen for weeks!!),and then seeing how beautiful the car looks in person, our decision was made easier. She expressed an interest in driving this car eventually.

My son doesn't drive stick but has his license and I would let him drive it, with a certain tension that is!

I just love the lines of this car so much and this one has the Sun and Sound and I've now entered the cell-phone age as well, and the Lancer GTS has bluetooth, and, yes, for those Butterfinger moments and not having to shift manually...I knew I could hold out and pretty easily find a 5-speed model in Arizona...we both decided the CVT Lancer GTS was our cup of tea.

My point of all of this is that the Lancer GTS offers so many cool features and that fantastic new body style that the type of tranny became sort of...secondary to being really important. I know that's not gonna resonate with all of ya, but it is true in our case.

Happy and safe motoring to everyone!

lilengineerboy

Congrats on your purchase, I thought you were high on the Suzuki Pacer thing though :confuse:

iluvmysephia1

of a sporty new sedan from Mitsubishi that grabbed my attention! I still like the SX4 but like what I get more in the 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. A bit more money but a lot more car, IMO.

However, the Lancer is FWD-only and can't change to AWD.

jeffyscott

By THAT "automatic" definition there's no such thing as an automatic transmission. They all have to be manually pushed into park, reverse, or drive.

Yeah, let's see...how about automatic shifting trans...no, because we manually "shift" from P to D...okay, maybe it is a transmission that features automatic forward gear selection. :confuse:

andres3

But for the record, when it does rev hang/lag for more than a few milliseconds (by the way) it at least does a very smooth shift. I suppose with a manual you could do a much more abrupt harder, neck breaking shift and be hard on the car/clutch/transmission.

dudleyr

That is a nice looking sedan. I guess the ES model with the stick was lacking some features.

Only weak point seems to be fuel mileage.

nippononly

Well, I didn't fully understand what it was you were referring to in your original post, but now that I do, I will add that cars have been programmed to do the emissions thing of delaying the closure of the throttle for almost a decade, and I long ago got used to it in terms of timing my shifts.

OTOH the DSG-equipped cars will never learn the problem with their shifting behavior, until they are better programmed from the factory. And there is nothing the driver can control that would fix his/her DGS's behavior. Just one more example of control one would have with a manual that one lacks with the DSG. ;-)

boaz47

It has never been about what we would like to see but what direction are things going in. I know it makes some people sad and some even refuse to see the signs but manuals as you said are now being out produced world wide, if your statistics earlier are correct.

There is no worry about the automatic being replaced or even if it is it will be replaced with another type of automatic. What we have been discussion is the trend in automotive manufacturing of replacing the manual as we know of it. Like you have pointed out in other posts Toyota seems to be moving towards a fleet of fewer and fewer manuals and Nissan looks like they might drop manuals in several of their commuter and higher end vehicles.

Because Asian automotive use and population is growing and they seem to be headed in the Automatic direction it only stands to reason that the future of the manual for the normal consumer is somewhat dimmer than any form of Automatic.

nippononly

Yes, but the Europeans are still buying them in very significant numbers. I guess once Toy/Hon/Sub stop selling manuals, I will be switching to VW or BMW...

;-)

And hey, if DSG replaces CVT as the automatic of the future, I think it makes it more likely that small cars will continue to offer a manual option, as DSGs are nowhere near as low-cost as CVTs are, and the cost would prohibit them making the DSG standard, at least for the foreseeable future. :-)

bpizzuti

Likely the CVT would be standard, and a DSG would be the "upgrade" transmission. And then maybe the torque converter will finally go away...I don't like the things, but when my left leg is giving me trouble I can't deal with a clutch pedal very easily. No clutch pedals for me; need to be able to drive while in pain.

lilengineerboy

Likely the CVT would be standard, and a DSG would be the "upgrade" transmission.

Eh, I don't see myself getting to excited about paying extra for either of those.

bpizzuti

I'm not too sure about CVTs myself. Nice that they don't have a torque converter (less power loss) but I'm not sure I could deal with how they work compared to actual gears; it's supposed to be a VERY different driving feel. I'm going to make sure to test drive a couple (Nissan Rogue and Jeep Patriot) while I'm car shopping later this year.

However, CVTs are cheap and comparatively simple to make, since they have VERY few moving parts and not a whole lot of complexity compared to a gearbox with actual gears (they're probably even a bit cheaper than an actual clutch-pedal-havin manual tranny to produce). This argues for them being "base" transmissions, as anything else would be more expensive, and therefore an option to be paid for.

DSGs are much more complex and expensive to make. I wouldn't have a problem paying extra for one. But I wonder if it would be worth it versus a CVT with a set of preprogrammed artificial ratios added in.

I wonder if anyone has done comparative studies on CVTs, DSGs, autos, and full-manual transmissions to compare power loss in a general sense (even without a torque converter there's always going to be some power loss due to friction).

lilengineerboy

Nissan's CVTs are considered cream of the crop right now. It is a different driving feel, since there are no steps, but it really didn't bother me. The revs went to where they were most efficient and stayed there. I spent some time with a current CVT Altima. Nissan has "steps" programmed into their CVT that give it varying feels depending on demand and driver input. It was a very nice driving vehicle.

I have also spent a lot of time with Toyota Priui (Priuses?)but that involves so much different technology that its hard to feel just the transmission.

I don't like the idea of belts and bands transmitting all the power output from the engine wrt reliability. I feel better with true gears (and a clutch).

bpizzuti

Ok, so let's find someone with a Nissan CVT, a VW/Audi DSG, a 6 speed auto and a 6 speed manual, and get them to go someplace with a dyno. We'll just need to know which engine each has and we can calculate the percentage loss.

john500

I wonder if anyone has done comparative studies on CVTs, DSGs, autos, and full-manual transmissions to compare power loss in a general sense (even without a torque converter there's always going to be some power loss due to friction).

Good question. When looking at the ratio of wheel hp to engine hp, I've seen ratios from 0.6 (wheel / engine) all the way up to 0.9. I don't know if the spread is mostly due to poor hp measurements or actual power loss. Off the top of my head, I would guess that most of the power loss is viscous drag (i.e. transaxle lubricant related) and it would be about constant, however, it would be nice to see a systematic study. There could be some significant differences.

stever

"The 8% of you Americans who have stuck with the stick should know a few things about the Versa’s. First, having six speeds to choose from is almost unheard of at this price, optimizing the Versa's already good fuel economy and making the most of its thin powerband."

Nissan Versa: Stickshift Sentiments

nippononly

Hmm, so how come despite being 6 speeds, the manual can't beat the CVT for EPA rating? I don't call that "optimizing".

:sick:

They are gearing all the manuals for speed these days, and their fuel economy ratings are suffering as a result. It's too bad.

boaz47

You have to be a died in the wool manual transmission person to go from a Toyota and Honda to a VW. If it weren't for Hummer, Land Rover and Kia VW would never have gotten off of the bottom of the JD powers dependability list. I almost got tempted by a new VW not that long ago. But I remembered VW parts and service from 3 decades of VWs and slapped myself. It isn't likely that DSG will replace other automatics or the CVT. That isn't who it is aimed at. The CVT is aimed at economy and mainstream cars and the DSG is aimed at sporty cars. But even you seem to be granting that sooner or later the Japanese may leave the manual market.

dudleyr

I don't get the Versa. 6 speeds and it still pulls 2900 rpm at 60 mph. About the same as a 30 year old Rabbit 4 speed. Nobody seems to want to use tall gears.

Don't they understand that people who buy stick shifts don't mind shifting - that includes an occasional downshift going uphill on the freeway.

seminole_kev

Going from a Toyota to a VW.

Funny, I did just that....and the thing is, the VW has been far more reliable/better built than the 'Yota I had. Go figure.

qbrozen

Hmm, so how come despite being 6 speeds, the manual can't beat the CVT for EPA rating? I don't call that "optimizing".

that's because the CVT is optimized for fuel economy. They can't both be the best. If the manual got better mileage, the CVT folks would be whining. ;b

nippononly

Well sure, I was just responding to someone else's comment that the manual "optimizes" fuel economy. No, it obviously doesn't in the Versa. No-one makes a tall top gear among all the folks that make 6-speed manuals. Nissan, Honda, you name it. Even the DCX 6-speed doesn't have a super tall top gear, and that is mated to large V-6 engines!

jeffyscott

No-one makes a tall top gear among all the folks that make 6-speed manuals. Nissan, Honda, you name it. Even the DCX 6-speed doesn't have a super tall top gear, and that is mated to large V-6 engines!

Yes, today the manuals apparently must be designed to be left in cruise control. In contrast, our 1989 Voyager had only about a 99 HP in a 2.5L, 4 cyl engine. I don't recall exactly what rpms were, but think in 5th was maybe 2500-3000 on the freeway. I'm sure the 3 speed auto had to run at much higher rpms and this showed in the hwy fuel economy advantage for the manual, which was 5 mpg, by EPA numbers.

We towed a pop-up camper with that and don't remember using cruise being a big problem. Did have to click it off, down-shift and manually accelerate from time to time. Actually, I was more bothered by the cruise, when we went to an automatic in a Windstar, it would suddenly down-shift two gears because we were towing and going up a hill...seemed overly aggressive to me, after having had the manual.

bumpy

GM does, but they only let you have it in cars with giant V8s, which defeats the purpose of the tall 6th.

dudleyr

Yes Corvette is about 1300 rpm at 60 mph in 6th.

If there was a way to down shift one gear without losing cruise maybe that would make a diff. I know Volvo had a 4 speed man with a button on top of the stick that would engage/disengage 5th. I wonder if something like that could be used and still alow cruise to function.

Of course I don't mind reengaging cruise - just hit resume. The occasional downshift is worth it for the relaxed cruising and better economy.

elias

I bet that a skilled driver can routinely get better mpg with the Versa 6-speed than the CVT, all else being equal.
Our minicooper CVT got *horrid* mpg for such a small car. 26 mpg. ewwwwww !
The VW DSG trans has taller top gear than the 5-spd, yet the 5-spd TDI owners report much better mpg than the DSG TDI owners.

bpizzuti

Usually all else isn't equal. First off, driving style has a lot of impact no matter what transmission. Second, many manual drivers might NOT be skilled but an automatic can make up for that. Read somewhere they manufacturers were preferring automated type transmissions because they could control the shift points for max fuel economy. Let's fact it, many who are looking for a manual are looking to drop clutches, make high-RPM takeoffs, and other such non-EPA-rating-friendly tasks.

Like I mentioned previously, there really needs to be some more studies and tests on these different transmissions. Lots of people have the idea that CVTs are automatically the most efficient, or manuals always get the best MPG. But I doutbt anyone's tried to prove it. A lot depends on gearing too, which is not always easy to find.

Personally, MPG isn't my highest priority...the EPA ratings are 1 - too close to each other for a noticeable difference and 2 - useless anyway. I want to know which tranny will put as close to 100% of my engine's power to the wheels as possible. I'm going to burn the gas anyway, may as well get the most use out of it as possible.