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The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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Comments

  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    You can't get BOTH adaptive cruise control and a manual transmission on a 5-series at the same time. You have to order the auto or SMG to get adaptive cruise control.

    That was the bet elias made. His money is still safe. ;)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,722
    i took my daughter out a few times in my manual trans focus. it does not have a tach.
    is it better to use less gas(stall it more), or use more gas(slipping the clutch)?
    overall, she would rather drive the suv. v-8, thumping stereo, heated leather seats, etc...
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • tallman1tallman1 Member Posts: 1,874
    If you are going to do one or the other extreme, I've always heard that it is easier on the clutch to pop it quickly than let it slip.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    easiest way to learn is to let out the clutch without giving the car gas. This really helps to feel the friction point, and since you are not putting any horse to the discs, you won't wear them out.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I had my kids start up on a slight downward slope and use just the clutch, no gas, the first time out. This reduces the stalling while getting the feel of how to start up with the clutch.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    she would rather drive the suv. v-8, thumping stereo, heated leather seats, etc...

    Let her pay for gas :P
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,669
    Some clutch slippage might be unavoidable, especially while learning to drive but in general it wears the clutch disc so it's preferable to risk a stall which doesn't hurt anything (unless you do it in the middle of a busy intersection :eek:).

    As you know the whole skill of driving a three pedal car is learning to strike the balance between slipping too much and stalling the car. ;)

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    Yes, that’s right. I wish my wife would be able to strike that balance more often. Unfortunately, when she’s “out of balance,” it is almost always on the side of too much clutch slipping. Stalling is almost always better.

    When I hear that high reving starting up the hill to the garage out back, I feel my wallet getting lighter!
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    My wife borrowed my Scirocco (this was 20 years ago) once when her car was in the shop, and she was just learning a clutch. She pulled into a parking space at a mini mall. When she came back to the car there was no car in front of her so she tried to pull through the space (she did not notice the parking bumper).

    Long story short - she got back and said there was something wrong with my clutch because she had to give it an awful lot of gas to get out of her parking space, and my car was making a funny sound (the exhaust got hit). I finally put 2 and 2 together and realized there were bumpers in that lot. Took her a while to live that one down, but I married her anyway.

    Anyway the clutch went on to last as long as I owned the car - another 80,000 miles.

    BTW - there is something quite nice about a lady driving a stick shift.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    BTW - there is something quite nice about a lady driving a stick shift.

    Especially in a cheer leading/tennis uniform. I was always willing to let my then g/f drive my car while she was in uniform. ;)
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    Yet another advantage to a manual! A dress/skirt with high heels is great. Even if the clutch is being slipped too much, etc. it is worth it!!
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,669

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Heeeeeeeyyy, THAT'S not a manual transmission! :mad:

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,669
    Heeeeeeeyyy, THAT'S not a manual transmission!

    Maybe not but it is "The Future of The Manual Transmission". ;)

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Heeeeeeeyyy, THAT'S not a manual transmission!

    Maybe not but it is "The Future of The Manual Transmission".

    No thats the END of the manual transmission :sick:
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Maybe not but it is "The Future of The Manual Transmission".

    Be serious, it's the end of the slushbox automatic, the true three pedal manual will soldier on. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    My sentiments exactly! :-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    The slush box was already on track to bring about the demise of the manual in the US, in all but a few expensive sports cars.

    The DSG will accelerate the process both here and elswhere and especially in places where the manual still rules, i.e. Europe.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    You know what I think? I think that once Ford, GM, and Toyota have completely and resolutely dropped manuals from their lower-end models, and the field of available manual shifts narrows, we might see those last manufacturers experience a surge in demand for the manual-shift models. That just might cause them to think twice before abandoning the manual entirely, especially in their less expensive and 4-cylinder models.

    Remember, we are hopefully about to enter an era with a focus on increasing fuel economy. Manuals were once very helpful in increasing FE, and most of the reason they aren't any more is just because they are mostly in models geared for speed nowadays. But it doesn't have to be that way - they could be geared for saving gas instead.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Agree -they absolutely can be geared to save gas. As it is an automatic with better gas mileage than a manual is rare, but with the proper gearing it should never happen.

    It seems they always make the top gear to short, to avoid highway downshifting. Wish they let the driver decide. If somebody wants to not downshift they can leave it in 5th on the highway. If somebody else wants max mpg they can shift up to 6th.

    I am quite impressed with the mpg my MT Accord gets, but if it dropped 3-400 rpm on the highway (like the AT) it would only be better.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    Come on my friend. It isn't the manufacturers fault that people are buying automatics more than 9 to one. Do you believe the percentages will change once the major manufacturers drop dog legs? From what I read CVTs are less costly to produce in the first place and once they become common they should be less to maintain and even cover with a full warrentee. So CVTs might make a dent in automatics like you have said yourself but DSGs should hit dog legs where they live. It doesn't look like Nissan is far from dropping the dog leg even as we type. And as you have mentioned Toyota near you isn't stocking boat loads of manuals on their lots. Now it may make it possible for a niche market to pop up fuel mileage hasn't been enough to turn your head in the last few years. I believe you have had three cars since we started debating the Prius and you were a defender of that vehicle if I remember correctly. But when it came to dropping the hammer you went with tradition. The only time you fell for the looks of a car you got the Matrix, with an automatic.
  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    It doesn't look like Nissan is far from dropping the dog leg even as we type

    Seems to me that Nissan is closer to dropping the classic auto-transmission in favour of CVT.
    The only options they offer for the Altima is CVT or manual with manual as the more affordable default for the first 2 models.

    Hard to say what DSGs will do. It's all opinion but I would think that the DSG will be more important to an auto-trans driver who hankers for something more responsive, not the manual driver who's already there.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Yup, that Matrix was my first and last automatic, GAWD was it awful.

    The new Matrix is a stick, which COMPLETELY transforms this car.

    And yes, I would love to get a hybrid car for my next purchase, but I doubt there will be one with an available manual, and I won't be buying an automatic. So I am rooting for 50-state ULEV diesels, and it sounds like they are on the way, from manufacturers that still build a healthy dose of manual shifts for their smaller cars.

    Think of this: if 1 in 10 cars sold is a stick, that's 1.7 MILLION buyers per year choosing a stick. It's small in percentage terms, but fairly large in real numbers. If we got down to only having 3 or 4 manufacturers still making manuals (besides sports car/luxury carmakers like Porsche), they would have a lot of business.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Another thing to remember is that there are plenty of people who would buy a stick if it were available. There are many cars that only have a stick with the base trim or base engine etc. I think the number of sticks sold would be higher if there was greater availability.

    Kinda chicken or egg though.

    The manufacturers/dealers hate manuals since they mean less profit and not every customer that walks in the door can drive one.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    Could be. Except the trend has been in response to buyer preference. Once we as a nation moved to the Just in time model of manufacturing everything got a bit like a 7/11 when it came to stocking. If people bought 100 slim jims and only 10 beef jerkys the next shipment to 7/11 had 100 slim jims and 10 beef jerkys. Like nippon said the numbers don't look bad unless you compare the two. However just in time dictates that if you sell 105 slim jims and 5 beef jerkys you increase the slim jims and decrease the beef jerkys. That is basically what has happened to manuals at Nippon's Toyota dealer. Only they decided the beef jerky(manuals) weren't worth stocking at all so the got 110 slim jims. The consumer has moved away from manuals so manufacturers have moved in the direction as well.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Think of this: if 1 in 10 cars sold is a stick, that's 1.7 MILLION buyers per year choosing a stick.

    Yes, but many are not choosing it for the reasons you are.

    Some choose it to save $1000 or so...or even more if the dealer has a leftover manual that they just want to get rid of.

    Some just don't like the torque converter on the automatics, but would still just as soon not have the clutch (these may prefer DSG or CVT, when given the opportunity).

    Some have been choosing manuals mostly for the extra gear(s) and better mpg...these factors are going away.

    How many would choose a manual if they could get their choice of automatic, DSG, or CVT for the same price and all of them got the same mpg and all (excluding CVT) had the same number of gears?

    How many would choose one vehicle over another based just on manual transmission availability?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Some choose it to save $1000 or so...or even more if the dealer has a leftover manual that they just want to get rid of."

    "Leftover manual" transmission equipped cars are usually nasty strippo models, yuk, no wonder why they're "leftover". I wouldn't be caught dead in one of them. :P

    "Some just don't like the torque converter on the automatics, but would still just as soon not have the clutch (these may prefer DSG or CVT, when given the opportunity)."

    Really? Geez, I've never met even a single person who would fall into this category. I'll bet that to 90% of the Automatic driving public, Slushbox=CVT=DSG=SMG. Said another way, they're all just automatic transmissions of one flavor or another.

    "Some have been choosing manuals mostly for the extra gear(s) and better mpg...these factors are going away."

    I'll grant you are some of these folks out there, however, I doubt there's as many as you might think.

    "How many would choose a manual if they could get their choice of automatic, DSG, or CVT for the same price and all of them got the same mpg and all (excluding CVT) had the same number of gears?"

    Me for one.

    "How many would choose one vehicle over another based just on manual transmission availability?"

    Hello! Me again! There I was working at MB-USA with the option of an employee discount on a new MB. Nope, couldn't do it. Why? BMW (just down the street) was offering cars with a stick shift for only a small premium over the MB employee pricing. I bought the BMW, and then did it again. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • punkr77punkr77 Member Posts: 183
    While I agree, moving some cars with a manual would probably be difficult, I think in certain cars not having it available either on the lot or with a reasonable wait loses sales.

    A sporty car without a manual just loses something. My wife and I looked at the V-6 accord. My wife liked the looks of the coupe but said it made her feel like she was driving a "dad car". Had she test driven a V-6 with a manual, she likely would have gone that route. The V-6 altima also would have been a likely candidate, again Altima + no manual = "dad car"

    In an economy car, a manual again makes the car feel very different. I used to own a 95 Civic EX. With the manual, it felt like a sports car even with its fairly small engine. I dove an identical car with an auto. It went from sports car to rental car.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    I just did buy a vehicle because of manual transmission availablity. I will not even consider an automatic and I am not alone.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    "Some just don't like the torque converter on the automatics, but would still just as soon not have the clutch (these may prefer DSG or CVT, when given the opportunity)."

    Really? Geez, I've never met even a single person who would fall into this category.

    Now you have. Me!! Hello! Me! I'd prefer to avoid torque converters AND 3rd pedals.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Now you have. Me!! Hello! Me! I'd prefer to avoid torque converters AND 3rd pedals."

    And the benefit to you is exactly what? :confuse:

    Personally I'll bet that for general road use, a top quality six, seven or even eight speed slushbox equipped automatic will out perform, out smooth (as in smoother operations) and out economy all other Automatic variants, SMGs, DSGs and CVTs included.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The cost. A clutch job is $600-$1200. $1200 is for something major as well - a Mercedes or a 4x4 or simmilar. Most of the time it's $250-$350 plus parts, which is $200-$400.

    A typical automatic these days runs $3000-$4000!

    That's a major reason. It saves gas and weight and so on AND it saves you from a major cost down the road - fixing it.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    you can put me in as another one that, while occasionally missing the clutch pedal, really just hates the torque converter slushbox feel of regular automatics. With the DSG I gained much better "feel" (hows that for a subjective value!) out of the box, much faster, consistantly rev matched shifts than I could get out of either a manual or a regular automatic. The feel of the shifts with the DSG is just like a manual (although a little quicker) than what shifts in any automatic I've ever driven feel like.

    That said, I've still got the ol' gal to drive around when I miss physically rowing my own gears.

    Back on point, yes the elimination of the torque converter/slushbox feel was the only way to get me into a "automatic" transmission. (I had a regular automatic once, and that was a big mistake. Thought I could live with it, but it drove me batty).
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,669
    who dislikes the TC but wants a car w/o the third pedal.

    In my case I'm physically unable to operate a clutch anymore. I'm planning to purchase a DSG equipped car in the next few years. Based on my test drive in a DSG Audi TT 3.2 it's every bit as much fun as a stick shift.

    Almost every maker of enthusiast oriented cars is considering adopting this type of transmission. I'll be first on line for a test drive at the Porsche dealer when the DSG Boxster arrives. :shades:

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    "Leftover manual" transmission equipped cars are usually nasty strippo models, yuk, no wonder why they're "leftover". I wouldn't be caught dead in one of them.

    Not true. Just as likely to be loaded up manual transmission cars that don't sell because many manual buyers are looking for a cheap car.

    I'll bet that to 90% of the Automatic driving public, Slushbox=CVT=DSG=SMG. Said another way, they're all just automatic transmissions of one flavor or another.

    You misunderstood my point. I agree with what you say about automatic buyers. But my point was that some manual transmission buyers buy a manual because they do not want the slushbox not because they do want a clutch. I'd prefer not to have the slush myself, even though I recently went over to the dark side ;) . If I could have gotten a DSG in my Mazda6 for not too much extra cost over the conventional automatic, I'd have been all over that deal.

    I considered some CVT and DSG options but none of them were what I wanted for other reasons. The VW DSG equipped models only came in the pricier versions, I'd have to pay for too much stuff I don't want (and no cloth = no sale for me). The CVT Altima I did not like the seat or the appearance (or the price). I did not get around to trying a CVT Lancer, I thought it would be smaller than what I wanted anyway...I probably should have tried it out, though.

    Just as there are not that many like me for whom the extra gear(s) and mpg was an important factor, there are not that many like you who would choose a manual if they could get their choice of automatic, DSG, or CVT for the same price and/or choose one vehicle over another based just on manual transmission availability.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    While I haven't driven it yet, my understanding is that the torque converter equipped automatic transmission that comes on the new 335i will do EXACTLY everything you're looking for in a non-clutch pedal transmission. If you're looking at riding yourself of clutching, that transmission may be what you're looking for.

    In the end though, I firmly believe that the alphabet soup trannies are all competing in the Automatic transmission space with very little crossover appeal to those of us who like to stir our own. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,330
    The TC "slushiness" is what I hate about ATs the most, plus often not being in the right gear, not downshifting, ets.

    But I will say that the BMW 5 series that I drove had a seriously nice AT. Tight, responsive, nice manumatic, etc. I could probably live with one of those.

    Now, the POntiac G6 rental cars I had for a month are a different story..

    FInally, the bigger the engine, the less an AT bothers me. I could never have one in a small 4 cyl car, but in a big V8? Not as much of an issue.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Wow, look at all these people who want to ditch the TC and aren't particularly fond of some weird transmission that requires 3 pedals to operate. :)

    Sequentials are the future; live with it. :)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Sequentials are the future; live with it."

    Not a chance. :P

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    I forsee the latest boy-ricer accessory: a dummy clutch pedal so people can at least make it look like they have a primitive, outdated transmission. :shades:
  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    Wow, look at all these people who want to ditch the TC and aren't particularly fond of some weird transmission that requires 3 pedals to operate

    Technically it doesn't take 3 pedals to work a manual, just one, the other do other stuff. :)
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    In the end though, I firmly believe that the alphabet soup trannies are all competing in the Automatic transmission space with very little crossover appeal to those of us who like to stir our own.

    I think you are completely wrong here. Those buying automatics now have already accepted the slushbox version. The DSG and CVT will probably be okay with them as well. In addition, DSGs and CVTs will also be found acceptable and even preferable by some who currently are in the manual trans camp.

    Your assumption is that everyone buying a manual is doing so because they want to have a clutch and want to shift gears themselves 100% of the time, I don't believe that this is the case. Certainly there are some in that category, maybe it's 50% of manual trans buyers, maybe it's 80%, or maybe it's 20%...who knows? I am pretty sure it is not 100%, though.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "I am pretty sure it is not 100%, though."

    I don't believe that I ever said it was 100%. That said, I do believe that a high percentage of those who drive stick shifts do so because the want to shift and they want to operate the clutch. Time will tell.

    As for ditching the torque converter, go drive a new 335iA and tell me what you think. You may decide that it's both better than an alphabet tranny and more enjoyable to drive.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    The clutch gives a whole level of control that a dsg (or whatever) does not.

    As an example try rocking yourself out of the snow in an automatic. You have to either shift from D to R which can't be timed with the rocking motion very easily, or just stay in D - in which case you are never totally disengaging power.

    The manual can also shift two or more gears with the same speed as a single shift. No need to be sequential.

    Automatics are also easy to confuse, especially when you change your mind (or traffic changes) quickly.

    No automatic can predict the future - manuals can because the driver can see ahead.

    A manual is always in the gear you want when you want it there - just shift as needed.

    Automatics weigh more. Some cars go to the trouble of putting the battery in the trunk for better weight distribution. A manual saves 50-100 lbs from the nose of the vehicle.

    You leave the lights on too long with an automatic (or stereo/whatever) and you are stuck. With a manual just give it a quick push and off you go.

    Older design does not mean archaic. Should we not use concrete becaue the Romans invented it? The wheel itself is archaic, should we use octagons now to be more modern?
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    I'm a manual supporter, but I have to comment on some of your points, mainly because you point at DSG in your opening statement, but then list downsides to an automatic. They are not really the same thing.

    For instance, in regards to "confusing" an automatic or not being in the right gear, yes, that's true. But not true for DSG. You still have control over what gear to be in with a DSG (or a really good automanual like those found in a ferrari).

    A manual saves 50-100 lbs from the nose of the vehicle.
    Only in FWD configuration. But, yes, in general, an automatic will add weight (it can, however, be in the center of the vehicle or even in the rear in some cases).

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,669
    While I haven't driven it yet, my understanding is that the torque converter equipped automatic transmission that comes on the new 335i will do EXACTLY everything you're looking for in a non-clutch pedal transmission.

    I've read the rave reviews of the new BMW Autobox and definitely plan to drive one before I decide on my next car.
    Certainly the 5-Speed Steptronic in my E39 is the best TC box I've ever experienced to date, it's part of the reason I got the 528.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    IMO, this is likely to be the future. As much as I like a clutch pedal, if I could get 100% of the results without the clutch pedal, it would probably be a better thing.

    I used to have a Mercedes - a really old 1960s model and there was an optional automatic clutch. It never sold well, but it essentially was a very early SMT transmission. The difference was that the gears were the same - none of this +/- nonsense - you had to move it through the typical 4-speed pattern.

    DSGs seem nice at first, but they have a few problems. They are complex, they fail like an automatic (can't push-start a typical DSG), are much heavier, and so on - plus cost more. Now, they really ARE nice, to be sure, but 150ms for a typical shift in a SMT is way more than fast enough for me.

    Thankfully there are a few SMT cars out there:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_Manual_Transmission
    100% manual - all they did was replace the clutch mechanism with a computer. It still push-starts, tows, and so on just like a real manual. There are NO computers controlling the thing itself, so you can rev it hard, it won't "Creep" at a light, and so on - though with the 1/6th second clutch engagement time, rolling on a hill becomes a distant memory.

    The only thing a SMT controls is the antiquated clutch lever. On my Mercedes, I had a clutch pedal, but it still was set up with the internals and hydraulics and such for the SMT/semi-auto option. So I got a bit spoiled. There was no friction - I hit the clutch pedal and it tripped a soleniod, which then tripped another one at the transmission to do the shift. It was quick and the clutch lasted literally forever. It made me a big fan.

    BMW's version is called "SMG"(Sequential Manual Gearbox) and works very very well. VW's, while it might be great for racing, is overly complex, IMO.

    My ONLY gripe, though, is that most vehicles have a +/- nonsense instead of a manual shifter. I can't count the times every week that I have to shift to neutral for a bit or have to do a 4-2 downshift in traffic.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I have never met anyone who liked the SMG in BMWs. All the ones I have driven I hated as well. The only SMG I haven't driven from BMW that is on the market is the M6 version.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    BMW's main fault is that the software controlling it assumes that you want a manu-matic experience as opposed to a clutchless manual.

    The ideal of course, is something like in the MR2 or most of the exotics - no nanny-modes. 5 or 6 speed shifter. Just no clutch pedal and no rolling backwards on hills. (and also, no "D" selection - you gotta DIY). Formula-1 drivers swear by them and love them to death. And that counts for a lot in my book. (yes I know the MR2 didn't have a proper shifter, but it gets a "pass" in my book as there was no "D" mode at all.)

    Too bad Toyota never put it in a real sportscar. Perhaps they will re-introduce it in their upcoming Supra...
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I will agree with that. BMW made it too complicated. I spend an hour to an hour and a half deliverying a Range Rover. In that time I can do a good overview of everything and a basic course on the NAV and phone operation.

    In a M5 or M6 I could spend one hour just on all of the different settings for the engine/SMG/rear diff.

    The F430 I drove was a great SMG. It was smooth, quick and very easy to use.
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